Guest Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Considering how stringent the Alethi appear to be when it comes to courting and formal marriages, and how they do follow some rather restrictive social rules (men can't read, etc.), I'd have expected homosexuality to be off the table completely. But then again, maybe I'm only thinking of the social norms that apply to lighteyes. I remember Skar and Drehy, but I don't remember any sort of romantic relationship between the two. Can someone spoonfeed me some intext citations for this one? I tend to believe as you do. However, I do think Brandon mentioned at some point he may ventured into an homosexual relationship using one of the Bridgemen. I do not recall however how Drehy's name got on the table, so perhaps someone who does may be able to point out the proper reference. For the rest, from what we have seen, homosexual relationships are most likely completely taboo within the Alethki society for both light and dark eyes. However, it could there are other societies in Roshar that are more open to the matter. Reshi Isles springs to mind. As for the Skar and Drehy pairing, I guess it was made because both are seen to spend some time together. There are no solid basis for this other then us thinking if a homosexual pairing were to be made, they could be it. I for one think it is a lovely idea. Let's not also forget the bridgemen are not all Alethki and Skar, for one, is originated from Purelake (I think), which may be another more open society.
Shaggai Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Considering how stringent the Alethi appear to be when it comes to courting and formal marriages, and how they do follow some rather restrictive social rules (men can't read, etc.), I'd have expected homosexuality to be off the table completely. But then again, maybe I'm only thinking of the social norms that apply to lighteyes. I remember Skar and Drehy, but I don't remember any sort of romantic relationship between the two. Can someone spoonfeed me some intext citations for this one? We don't know what their views on homosexuality are, though. A lot of opposition to homosexuality in Western society is a result of religion, whereas we know very little about Vorinism. I mean, we haven't seen any other gay characters, so perhaps it's not really accepted, but we can't be sure. They could have extremely restrictive social norms which don't necessarily exclude homosexuality. 1
Moogle Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 We don't know what their views on homosexuality are, though. A lot of opposition to homosexuality in Western society is a result of religion, whereas we know very little about Vorinism. I mean, we haven't seen any other gay characters, so perhaps it's not really accepted, but we can't be sure. They could have extremely restrictive social norms which don't necessarily exclude homosexuality. A big part of lighteyed society is that a man and woman form "effective" teams because of how restricted the activities allowed to the genders are. I would fully expect Vorinism to be opposed to homosexuality on that point alone. 1
Arondell Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I tend to believe as you do. However, I do think Brandon mentioned at some point he may ventured into an homosexual relationship using one of the Bridgemen. I do not recall however how Drehy's name got on the table, so perhaps someone who does may be able to point out the proper reference. As for the Skar and Drehy pairing, I guess it was made because both are seen to spend some time together. There are no solid basis for this other then us thinking if a homosexual pairing were to be made, they could be it. I for one think it is a lovely idea. Let's not also forget the bridgemen are not all Alethki and Skar, for one, is originated from Purelake (I think), which may be another more open society. I think at this point it is a generally accepted "Brandon said" kind of thing. Since I do recall Peter confirming the sexuality of one of the Mistborn characters I figure he would probably have done the same with Drehy if it wasn't the case since it has been brought up on numerous occasions. As for a relationship with Skar. Unless they are shown hanging out together in situations where I would not normally expect them to be as part of their duties I'm not really seeing it. Guarding the Kholins, hanging out around the fire at the barracks, and even going out drinking in and of itself is inadequate to even base speculation on. Now if it was noted that they always sat next to each other at the fire or often went out drinking together without the others then that might be something. One scene with amusing banter on the battlefield, not even spoken to each other, isn't enough.
Rubix he/him Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Maxal, Brandon confirmed that it was Drehy in an unrecorded Q&A with me.
Aleksiel Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Considering how stringent the Alethi appear to be when it comes to courting and formal marriages, and how they do follow some rather restrictive social rules (men can't read, etc.), I'd have expected homosexuality to be off the table completely. But then again, maybe I'm only thinking of the social norms that apply to lighteyes. I remember Skar and Drehy, but I don't remember any sort of romantic relationship between the two. Can someone spoonfeed me some intext citations for this one? Drehy and Skar have no on-screen romance, not even an implied one. That doesn't stop me from shipping them Drehy is gay and getting a boyfriend, we know nothing about Skar's sexuality, but they were so awesome together as a team and my fan-shipping doesn't need more! In fact I have ships based on even less Alethi society is pretty different from Western society, but Moogle made a good point about the necessity of the man-woman team. However, that is for man with a certain rank and responsibilities, so I don't expect to see Vorinism treating same sex relationships the way Christianity does. I'd hazard it's acceptable for the lower classes, but I suppose anything's possible when we know so little. However, the bridgemen will get a different status as squires of a Radiant, so they'll probably get away with gay relationships even if it's against the norm. I really doubt at this point that any bridgemen will turn out to be homophobic and instead I expect them to tolerate each other regardless of any former or future circumstances. I mean, I expect them to take Moash back eventually...
Shaggai Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 A big part of lighteyed society is that a man and woman form "effective" teams because of how restricted the activities allowed to the genders are. I would fully expect Vorinism to be opposed to homosexuality on that point alone. Right, I forgot about that. Yeah, there's going to be some opposition. I'm not sure how Kaladin will react, though. He's culturally darkeyes, so the gender norms aren't necessarily quite as ingrained, but on the other hand it's not like darkeyes don't care about gender norms at all.
Guest Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) Maxal, Brandon confirmed that it was Drehy in an unrecorded Q&A with me. Oh thanks! I knew the information was solid, but I couldn't remember where I heard it. Drehy and Skar have no on-screen romance, not even an implied one. That doesn't stop me from shipping them Drehy is gay and getting a boyfriend, we know nothing about Skar's sexuality, but they were so awesome together as a team and my fan-shipping doesn't need more! In fact I have ships based on even less Alethi society is pretty different from Western society, but Moogle made a good point about the necessity of the man-woman team. However, that is for man with a certain rank and responsibilities, so I don't expect to see Vorinism treating same sex relationships the way Christianity does. I'd hazard it's acceptable for the lower classes, but I suppose anything's possible when we know so little. However, the bridgemen will get a different status as squires of a Radiant, so they'll probably get away with gay relationships even if it's against the norm. I really doubt at this point that any bridgemen will turn out to be homophobic and instead I expect them to tolerate each other regardless of any former or future circumstances. I mean, I expect them to take Moash back eventually... I expect Moash to become the squire of another order then the Windrunner... I think he is ill suited for the Windrunner as shown with his clash of beliefs with Kaladin. He would, however, make a lovely squire for a more ruthless order such as the Dustbringers. As for Skar and Drehy, this is nothing to say they will remain in Alethkar the whole time... It could be they will be send elsewhere, in a more open society which would give them the freedom they need to explore their relationship, if relationship there is. Besides, if I recall properly (correct me if I am wrong), Skar is from Purelake and Drehy is not Alethki... He is a blond and all.... And they did make a good team on the Plateau fight, taking part into the combat despite Kaladin's interdiction and managing to always be there when Adolin was in need. They were awesome and I hope they will get this raise Edited October 23, 2014 by Rubix Please don't double post.
Shaggai Posted October 23, 2014 Posted October 23, 2014 Oh thanks! I knew the information was solid, but I couldn't remember where I heard it. I expect Moash to become the squire of another order then the Windrunner... I think he is ill suited for the Windrunner as shown with his clash of beliefs with Kaladin. He would, however, make a lovely squire for a more ruthless order such as the Dustbringers. As for Skar and Drehy, this is nothing to say they will remain in Alethkar the whole time... It could be they will be send elsewhere, in a more open society which would give them the freedom they need to explore their relationship, if relationship there is. Besides, if I recall properly (correct me if I am wrong), Skar is from Purelake and Drehy is not Alethki... He is a blond and all.... And they did make a good team on the Plateau fight, taking part into the combat despite Kaladin's interdiction and managing to always be there when Adolin was in need. They were awesome and I hope they will get this raise I expect Moash to become Odium's champion. Barring full-on Heraldic corruption (which is unlikely, given that Nalan doesn't want Desolation), he's the most likely guy. 1
Kyats Rani she/her Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 I know that the current discussion wavered rather far from the original topic (which I don't mind, in fact, Drehy's situation does seem interesting, but that's not something I feel I can speculate about, so I'll just wait to see what's going to happen about him ), I wanted to express my opinion on the poll. Starting from the top: Jasnah - she doesn't strike me as the cougar type (on the other hand she doesn't really strike me as someone interested in romantic relationship at all), so I doubt it could be the case. Besides I just don't see Kaladin with an important highborn lighteye Shallan - in my eyes it's a huge NO (yes, in capitals). I understand why people tend to ship this, even though I strongly disagree. My reasons? Well, one thing is that Kaladin is my favourite character (alongside Syl of course ) and Shallan seemed to focus her actions in the secend book solely on purpose of annoying me (ok, that's maybe too harsh, but she DOES annoy me much, more in WoR than before ), so I just don't want to see them together. But for more objective reasons... Last thing I want to read about is love triangle, especially now, that Adolin and Kaladin started getting along (they both could really use a good friend in each other). Besides there is this whole antagonism between honorspren and cryptics... I don't think Syl and Pattern would get along just for the romance (that would be cheap). And as I said with Jasnah - important lighteye doesn't seem to me like a good partner to Kaladin. Lift - hm... no. Not just the age difference (that would be rather worked out in the further books), but their personalities simply don't fit. Unknown - that's possible, but it's not even speculation based on any facts but pure imagination (personally, I'd imagine for Kaladin a women from outside of Alethi society - maybe Iriali, I like their golden hair - somebody strongwilled and uncaring of Vorin traditions like the eye color thing or gender roles, maybe even another proto-Radiant, but a truly in-combat one unlike Shallan or Jasnah, you know, a Dustbringer or such). Other - I voted for this one, having a specific "other" in mind. But since I spoke about my reasons against previous options, I think I'll evaluate my opinions on few more female characters that are sometimes shipped with Kal. Tarah - doesn't seem like it to me, whatever was between them is over, and (for all we know about this, which is little) it happened for a reason. I think she's more of a part of his past that he has to get over. Laral - possibly even bigger NO than Shallan (or at least comparable). I won't repeat my argument about lighteyed ladies unsuitable for Kal (I mentioned it with Jasnah and Shallan and I'll explain more on the bottom), but I'd like to point out how she behaved towards him in the past. I mean that part when Kal was sitting in the kitchen and she was rude to him supporting Roshone's son (sorry, I don't have a book on me to quote). If she really cared about him, she would propably try to divert Rillir's attention somewhere else (considering that she was propably not in a position to take Kal's side). Also, we had several instances where her behaviour confused/annoyed Kal (the chapter where he fought a boy from the village), those same behaviours he now despises in the lighteyes (demanding assistance in thing they can do themselves, showing off). I admit, he once had a puppy-crush on her, but now he is a man grown and quite possibly smarter. I swear, if this would be the case, I'll throw the book at a wall (of course, not Stromlight Archive, but some random book or other object that shall have the unpleasure of being in my reach ). Jenet - and this one by now seems the most suitable for Kal. Yes, she's a lighteye, but not a stiff lighteyed lady (of the kind I'm-sooo-amazing-and-better-than-you). She's a woman with true passion and it's not something typically associated with women in Alethi society (horseriding is not forbidden to them, but it's not so typically feminine like arts), besides she seems to be strong character with her opinion and her own mind (unlike Laral). Jenet doesn't try to impress anyone (as Shallan often does - I know she has her reasons, but it's still annoying), she's just being herself and doesn't care about opinions of the others. She also doesn't seem to put so much weight to herself being lighteyed - when she appeared in the book she used rather her authority as a stablemaster, not a lighteye sensu stricto. I strongly believe that Kaladin really needs a strong woman (not a damsel in distress like some others *cough*Laral*cough*) who can force some sense into him when even Syl fails, and by now Jenet is the only one capable of this. As for my reasoning behind "no important lighteyed Brightness for Kal"... Back in WoK, when Kaladin found out that his parents planned to have him marry Laral, he came to the conclusion that he wouldn't be happy with that, as she (and possibly even his children) would outrank him greatly. It's not so much the case now, as he achieved high position himself, unless we are talking about a lighteye outranking nearly everyone (ie. Jasnah), but I believe he's important enough now not to mind a low-dahn wife so much purely because of the social status. Beware, the spoiler contains the information from the reading from the 3rd book! Despite what I (and propably almost everyone else) believed at the and of WoR, Kaladin didn't become a lighteye himself. Not truly at least - his eye color changes to blue when he's surgebinding or summoning Syl as a shardweapon, otherwise it's still brown. I know him being a Radiant must mean something for his social status, but Alethi have issues about eye color, and that's propably not going to change. But still there is a matter of how typical Brightness acts - and that doesn't seem to suit Kal too much. 2
Aleksiel Posted October 24, 2014 Posted October 24, 2014 When did Kal came to the conclusion he wouldn't be happy with Laral, because she and possibly their children outranked him? Not that I ship them or anything, I just don't remember it. It's been a while
Kyats Rani she/her Posted October 25, 2014 Posted October 25, 2014 When did Kal came to the conclusion he wouldn't be happy with Laral, because she and possibly their children outranked him? Not that I ship them or anything, I just don't remember it. It's been a while Well, it was this chapter in which he talked with his mother, when he first learned of his parents' plans to have them wed. There was something about cleaning the roof of crem... It may've even been the chapter in which Roshone first appeared, but I'm not very sure of that. I'm sorry but I really can't tell you the exact page from the books or even quote the material directly - I'm from Poland and the only copy of the book I own is the polish one so...
Guest Posted October 25, 2014 Posted October 25, 2014 Well, it was this chapter in which he talked with his mother, when he first learned of his parents' plans to have them wed. There was something about cleaning the roof of crem... It may've even been the chapter in which Roshone first appeared, but I'm not very sure of that. I'm sorry but I really can't tell you the exact page from the books or even quote the material directly - I'm from Poland and the only copy of the book I own is the polish one so... I seem to recall the same thing.......... but I can't quote it either.
Twenty@20 he/him Posted October 26, 2014 Posted October 26, 2014 I stick my neck out on this discussion and suggest that Kaladin may remain without a love interest in the near future or at least till this Desolation business is done with. I mean seriously, where is he going to find time to follow up with any girl he might get interested in.(Eg. Shallan) He is already bound by oaths to protect and is going to lead the struggle against voidbringers. For companionship he has Syl and other radiants and will soon have a bunch of squires. I am not saying that a relationship will not do him any good but that he won't be able to find the time for a budding relationship. 1
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