Anybody else think Sadeas was a bit... strange?

[Zerovirus]

So, after reading Words of Radiance, I went back and reread Way of Kings for kicks. And Sadeas' portrayal seems to have drastically changed from WoK to WoR; in WoK, Dalinar explicitly mentions how both he and Sadeas hated each other but tolerated each other for the sake of protecting Elhokar.

 

In WoR, on the other hand, Sadeas ponders the idea of assassinating Elhokar and finds that he has basically no aversion to the thought anymore. Which... doesn't match the image of Sadeas as someone who would devote his life to protecting Elhokar, as Dalinar portrays him.

 

Sure, maybe Sadeas was planning to betray Gavilar all along and never really cared about Elhokar from the start, but in that case, the incredibly suicidally brave idea of pretending to be Gavilar to draw Szeth's attention probably wouldn't have occurred to this hypothetical always-a-traitor-Sadeas.

 

So... when did Sadeas change? Why did Sadeas change? Dalinar seemed to think that Sadeas was still the same man he'd always been, loyal to Gavilar and Elhokar's throne, up until he betrays them and leaves them to die- and even that's not totally out-of-character for someone who wants to protect Elhokar, not if he legitimately thinks that a mad Dalinar is a threat to the throne (after all, the Blackthorn would always be a threat to Elhokar if only through his sheer force of personality).

 

Honestly, after reading WoK again, I'm of the opinion that some supernatural influence changed Sadeas slowly for the worse- a corruption of some sort or other, possibly done by one of the Unmade. After all, we know that the Thrill is caused by Nergaoul, and whereas Dalinar resisted the Thrill, Sadeas became addicted and started pursuing the Thrill (as described in WoR), which may have made it easier for him to be corrupted by Bad Things.

 

Thoughts?

[Asha'man Logain]

I'm betting that Odium heavily influenced him, but you have to understand in his own mind he was protecting his country, more important than dalinar or any single person. Many people in the series seem to have this idea, that they can do horrible things for a percieved greater good. Destination rather than journey, if you will.

[Kobold King]

While I'd love to espouse the idea of Sadeas being replaced by a kandra, I sadly must concur with the idea that Odium or Nergaoul got to him. Sigh...

[Wrath]

I just thought that Dalinar was, you know, wrong about him.

[Observer]

Sadeas is very much used to wearing a mask, a facade, probably since even before Gavilar. Maybe he was once a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, but over the years his internal self has slowly drifted away from his socially-presented persona. I can't rule out Odium's influence, but I'm thinking he's started to see Elhokar as nothing but convenient cover, and Dalinar as an empty shell of what he once was. The fact that he *still* plans to backstab him even after WoR events tells me that since this from where we first saw him to now, there is almost nothing left of the original Sadeas.

[Wrath]

Sadeas's wife seems like a bad influence, too.

[Asha'man Logain]

Perhaps she should have been targeted over Elohkar's wife. Although she did precipitate an ardent's defection and mass riots. Looks like Dalinar was right again, they should not have moved the focus of the Alethi government to the shatter plains for so long.

[Leuthie]

Sadeas seemed consistent with all other Highprinces. We only knew Sadeas mind once we got PoV chapters post betrayal. Of course his personality seemed to change. Usually does when you're given the whole of the story.

[Wolven]

I have honestly thought the same thing. He seemed so different to me as well. The second bood made him look like an old man who was having one hell of a serious mid life crisis. The only thing that gave him any joy anymore was battle.

It seemed like he stopped caring about the good of Alethkar. Any talk of wanting to help his country by tearing it apart first before rebuilding it only seemed like a means to an end to fuel his desire for war. I can't help but think of what he would have done next if he had realized his desires and conquered Alethkar and became king.

[Arondell]

The last scene with Sadeas in the book I thought was rather odd.

 

Sadeas's indicated intention to start a campaign of lies about what has happened seemed remarkably amateurish.  Given the circumstances and the Everstorm any such lies would be seen as blatantly false in short order and only undermine his position.  To me it felt more like determined denial rather then a real understanding of the situation.  When he stated his intention to take Dalinar's discoveries, including Urithru, I felt contempt not anger.   Not because of his slimy evilness so much as his blatant cluelessness.  Seriously Sadeas's?  You want to claim a city that can only practicably be accessed by a Radiant in the first place?   This scene dropped Sadeas from fairly clever mid-level villain to clueless caricature in my eyes.  Though thinking back he had been kind of sinking to that position for most of the book.

 

Adolin did Roshare and the readers a favor.

[Argent]

I don't see Odium in what Sadeas has been doing - he is not particularly hateful. If anything, he is exhibiting a weird form of twisted cultivation of Alethkar....

[Seloun]

Sadeas does seem to change in characterization between TWoK and WoR, but this is likely because we only really see Sadeas from Dalinar's perspective.  Sadeas's reasons for change is well supported in Sadeas's PoVs, where we get a pretty clear explanation as why he's been changing:

 

 

Damnation. When had he gotten old? He imagined himself as a young man, in his twenties. Now he was fifty. Storming fifty. He set his jaw, looking at that Blade.

 

 

“I will have it back, Ialai,” he said, resting his fingers on Oathbringer’s hilt. “The conquest.”

 

It was the only thing that made him feel alive any longer . That glorious, wonderful Thrill of being on the battlefield and striving, man against man . Of risking everything for the prize. Domination . Victory.

 

It was the only time he felt like a youth again.

 

It was a brutal truth. The best truths, however, were simple.

 

 

He hated how his body felt outside of Shardplate, and he hated more how he looked. Once, he’d turned heads as he walked. His power had filled a room; everyone had looked to him, and many had lusted when seeing him. Lusted for his power, for who he was.

 

He was losing that. Oh, he was still powerful— perhaps more so. But the look in their eyes was different. And every way of responding to his loss of youthfulness made him look petulant.

 

He was dying, step by step. Like every man, true, but he felt that death looming . Decades away , hopefully, but it cast a long, long shadow. The only path to immortality was through conquest.

 

As he's getting old, Sadeas is becoming more and more aware of his mortality, and increasingly wants to leave some legacy behind; being the power behind the throne is less and less attractive. The most straightforward way to read this is that Sadeas really was content with his position (being arguably the most powerful highprince, but with Elhokar to take blame for any problems) until he starts to feel his age, and becomes dissatisfied by his lack of a legacy. There may be some supernatural component from the Thrill reminding of what he's losing, but for the most part his behavior is pretty understandable without invoking any supernatural agency.

 

Another possible factor is that Sadeas doesn't seem to have any children, and his feelings of wanting to leave something behind might be compounded by Adolin's increasing prowess:

 

 

Four Shardbearers. How? Even allowing for the help of that slave, it was now obvious that Adolin was at last growing into the man his father had once been. That terrified Sadeas, because the man Dalinar had once been— the Blackthorn— had been a large part of what had conquered this kingdom.

 

Dalinar has a legacy, even without being king - not only his reputation, but his son is another martial genius, the Blackthorn reborn (from Sadeas's perspective). Sadeas doesn't have anything comparable, and it wouldn't be surprising if he's regretting that as he's getting older. He's got limited options as to what he can do to leave his mark on the world, and the main one is to take the throne for real and get his name in the histories by conquering kingdoms.

[Arin]

Do we know if everyone feels the Thrill or just those with shards? It seems Sadeas gets worse after taking the blade. Maybe the unmade have more effect on shard holders who arent bonded.

[Dihatimus]

I think it is the pressure of failure. 

 

Sadeas is generally successful with his plots and schemes. He gets the kings ear and becomes highprince of information. Dalinar takes that away. He creates a sheer genius way of getting rid of Dalinar, a slave...a mere bridgeman takes that away. He sees a way to control the other highprinces when Adolin is begging for duels, and that too fails. The assassination attempt of dalinar on the bridge fails, the flier campaign gets turned around on him. Every plot and scheme has been failing, and Dalinar is growing stronger. At the end, Dalinar, the slave, and some woman become heroes the likes of which have never been seen in this era, and Sadeas is taking a step backward every single day. He is grasping at sand as it slips through his fingers. He needs to get some traction but the race is nearly over and he feels he is back at the starting line.

[WitSpren]

Sadeas does seem to change in characterization between TWoK and WoR, but this is likely because we only really see Sadeas from Dalinar's perspective.  Sadeas's reasons for change is well supported in Sadeas's PoVs, where we get a pretty clear explanation as why he's been changing:

 

 

 

 

As he's getting old, Sadeas is becoming more and more aware of his mortality, and increasingly wants to leave some legacy behind; being the power behind the throne is less and less attractive. The most straightforward way to read this is that Sadeas really was content with his position (being arguably the most powerful highprince, but with Elhokar to take blame for any problems) until he starts to feel his age, and becomes dissatisfied by his lack of a legacy. There may be some supernatural component from the Thrill reminding of what he's losing, but for the most part his behavior is pretty understandable without invoking any supernatural agency.

 

Another possible factor is that Sadeas doesn't seem to have any children, and his feelings of wanting to leave something behind might be compounded by Adolin's increasing prowess:

 

 

Dalinar has a legacy, even without being king - not only his reputation, but his son is another martial genius, the Blackthorn reborn (from Sadeas's perspective). Sadeas doesn't have anything comparable, and it wouldn't be surprising if he's regretting that as he's getting older. He's got limited options as to what he can do to leave his mark on the world, and the main one is to take the throne for real and get his name in the histories by conquering kingdoms.

 

I agree completely.

 

Most of the difference between WoK  and WoR is that we mostly just got Dalinar's POV opinions on Sadeas.    Even then, other people saw Sadeas differently than Dalinar & he had to convince them that Sadeas was a good man,     Dalinar was fooling himself.     But we learned better at the end of WoK and it was completely confirmed in WoR.    Odium might be an influance, but if so, he did not have far to go with Sadeas.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

Do we know if everyone feels the Thrill or just those with shards? It seems Sadeas gets worse after taking the blade. Maybe the unmade have more effect on shard holders who arent bonded.

I had a similar thought about him getting worse after getting the blade, but not because of the Unmade. I think it stems from the emptiness you feel after getting something you've wanted for a lifetime. He finally realized his goal of becoming a full shardbearer, and so a new goal, a new purpose had to be found.

Edited April 11, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Wrath]

The last scene with Sadeas in the book I thought was rather odd.

 

Sadeas's indicated intention to start a campaign of lies about what has happened seemed remarkably amateurish.  Given the circumstances and the Everstorm any such lies would be seen as blatantly false in short order and only undermine his position.  To me it felt more like determined denial rather then a real understanding of the situation.  When he stated his intention to take Dalinar's discoveries, including Urithru, I felt contempt not anger.   Not because of his slimy evilness so much as his blatant cluelessness.  Seriously Sadeas's?  You want to claim a city that can only practicably be accessed by a Radiant in the first place?   This scene dropped Sadeas from fairly clever mid-level villain to clueless caricature in my eyes.  Though thinking back he had been kind of sinking to that position for most of the book.

 

Adolin did Roshare and the readers a favor.

 

I think that's deliberate. Sadeas lost, and he lost big. In fact he didn't just lose the game, he turned out to not even be playing the same game as Dalinar. He didn't have the dignity to give in, so he had to force himself to espouse what he knew were lies. I felt sorry for him, to be honest.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Wrath

[Aoibheann]

Sadeas admits he's been lying to himself:

 

Isn't this what you wanted?  Sadeas thought. To reawaken him?

No. The deeper truth was that Sadeas didn't want Dalinar back.  He wanted his old friend out of the way, and it had been such for months now, no matter what he wanted to tell himself.

 

He originally wanted Dalinar out of the way, so he could influence Elhokar, but that didn't work.  Now he wants them both out of the way. 

 

He also took a major step toward embracing Odium when he deserted Dalinar at the Tower.  Even pretending to be honorable influences people toward Honor.  With the abandonment of allies on the field, Sadeas stopped pretending to be honorable.  

[Fifth of Daybreak]

The next time you reread WoK, keep an eye on Sadeas. Brandon always hints at these things. Sadeas repeatedly attempts to get Dalinar to leave his bridges behind. There are plenty of small lines and details that hint towards the impending betrayal, once you know what's going to happen. 

[Shanderton]

The last scene with Sadeas in the book I thought was rather odd.

 

Sadeas's indicated intention to start a campaign of lies about what has happened seemed remarkably amateurish.  Given the circumstances and the Everstorm any such lies would be seen as blatantly false in short order and only undermine his position.  To me it felt more like determined denial rather then a real understanding of the situation.  When he stated his intention to take Dalinar's discoveries, including Urithru, I felt contempt not anger.   Not because of his slimy evilness so much as his blatant cluelessness.  Seriously Sadeas's?  You want to claim a city that can only practicably be accessed by a Radiant in the first place?   This scene dropped Sadeas from fairly clever mid-level villain to clueless caricature in my eyes.  Though thinking back he had been kind of sinking to that position for most of the book.

 

Adolin did Roshare and the readers a favor.

 

Anyone remember Star Wars, where the emperor to be gets Anakin to kill Darth Tyranus to eventually turn him into Dath Vader? Just saying.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Shanderton

[kayetech]

What if he was spiked? As in hemalurgy? This could explain his sudden change of temperament.

 

From here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/

 

"Q:  Would a Hemalurgic spike take surges?
A:  Hemalurgy can interact with every one of the magics.  I designed it specifically in writing Mistborn for future use.  Because some of the magics are so limited by their planet I wanted one that transcended all of them and Hemalurgy is very important to the entire Cosmere  Its invention is a thing of great power and great danger to the entire Cosmere.
 
Q:  Have people not from/on Scadrial used Hemalurgy?
A:  Yes."

 

 

[ccstat]

Do we know if everyone feels the Thrill or just those with shards? It seems Sadeas gets worse after taking the blade. Maybe the unmade have more effect on shard holders who arent bonded.

We have WoB that even darkeyes feel the Thrill, so it is definitely not restricted to shardbearers. Also, when Taravangian arrives in Jah Keved he says that the fighting has been so terrible because the Thrill is there now, rather than hanging out just in Alethkar. So it seems to be pretty universal.

 

 

[Shardmancer]

I dont think it was anything as wild as Kandra, or being spiked... Its been years since he tried to be a distraction for the King and years of warfare and useless battles changed his ideals and his perspective.

 

After he betrayed Dalinar there was no more pretending or going back- and thats why the dynamic changed so much in WOR

[kaellok]

"The king frowned.  'Then who...?  Restares?  Sadeas  I never thought...'" (The Way of Kings, Prologue, p.34 hardcover).

 

There were three people that Gavilar thought would have him assassinated: Thaidakar being likely, Restares and Sadeas only possibilities.  So, Gavilar clearly thought that the potential for betrayal was there.  If we take the Sadeas PoV scenes in WoR, it doesn't really seem that strange.  The only strangeness is taking what we have seen from someone else's perspective (Dalinar) and applying it to the newly added Sadeas PoV.

 

I do, however, very strongly believe that he was corrupted by Nergaoul along the way.  All that talk of the Thrill, and missing it; likely, if it had continued to affect him as strongly as it had in his youth, then he would not have engineered plans that would result in escalating conflict and confrontations.

[Eri]

Maybe the change in Sadeas' personality is caused (among other reasons) by the corruption of having a Shardblade?