Unknown Shards

[Ripheus23]

16 is:

8 * 2

4 * 4

2^4 (2(2(2(2))))

... and lots of other things, but, so, I wonder if something to do with its divisibility is related to how the possible Intents are ordered.

The difference between the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Realms divides some magic systems (e.g. on Scadrial, Allomancy is most Physical, Feruchemy most Cognitive, and Hemalurgy most Spiritual). This difference seems essential to reality such that one might suspect it to be related to the structure of Adonalsium, i.e. as implicated in a 16-fold division. But how to get from 3 Realms to 16 "Intents"?

A simple opposition scheme would have eight Shards with eight anti-Shards, so to say. (The antithetical aspect of them is relative, though?) The symmetry of 4 by 4 seems a little likelier from a how-complicated-this-all-is point of view, plus with the 8 by 2 scheme we'd be reduced to having to explain where the number 8 came from, and that doesn't seem likely.

Some interesting facts about 16 [from Wikipedia]:

Quote

Sixteen is the only integer that equals mⁿ and n^m, for some unequal integers m and n (m = 4, n = 2, or vice versa).^[1] It has this property because 2² = 2 × 2. It is also equal to ³2 (see tetration).

16 is the base of the hexadecimal number system, which is used extensively in computer science.

 

EDIT: I found what I was looking for...

So 2^(2^2) or 2²² = 16. So each "2" might be a Realm, and the over-Realm goes to the number 16. Then the Shards are representations of the 16 Boolean binary operators, maybe, or correlated with them, or whatever (let's say each Shard goes with one operator [for the Cognitive Realm], one emotion from some 16-set of emotions [for the Spiritual Realm], and one physical kind of matter [for the Physical Realm]).

Edited August 7, 2018 by Ripheus23

[ZenBossanova]

1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

16 is:

8 * 2

4 * 4

2^4 (2(2(2(2))))

... and lots of other things, but, so, I wonder if something to do with its divisibility is related to how the possible Intents are ordered.

The difference between the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Realms divides some magic systems (e.g. on Scadrial, Allomancy is most Physical, Feruchemy most Cognitive, and Hemalurgy most Spiritual). This difference seems essential to reality such that one might suspect it to be related to the structure of Adonalsium, i.e. as implicated in a 16-fold division. But how to get from 3 Realms to 16 "Intents"?

A simple opposition scheme would have eight Shards with eight anti-Shards, so to say. (The antithetical aspect of them is relative, though?) The symmetry of 4 by 4 seems a little likelier from a how-complicated-this-all-is point of view, plus with the 8 by 2 scheme we'd be reduced to having to explain where the number 8 came from, and that doesn't seem likely.

Some interesting facts about 16 [from Wikipedia]:

EDIT: I found what I was looking for...

So 2^(2^2) or 2²² = 16. So each "2" might be a Realm, and the over-Realm goes to the number 16. Then the Shards are representations of the 16 Boolean binary operators, maybe, or correlated with them, or whatever (let's say each Shard goes with one operator [for the Cognitive Realm], one emotion from some 16-set of emotions [for the Spiritual Realm], and one physical kind of matter [for the Physical Realm]).

If we compare this with Allomancy & Feruchemy, then we can catagorize the Shards as Internal/External, Pushing/Pulling and the 4 categories/Realms Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual, Temporal. 

[Feruchemist]

Could a Shard of Caution be possible?

[Fanghur Rahl]

14 minutes ago, Feruchemist said:

Could a Shard of Caution be possible?

Possibly, though I think that 'Prudence' or 'Discretion' or 'Vigilance' would be better labels for it.

[Feruchemist]

16 hours ago, Fanghur Rahl said:

Possibly, though I think that 'Prudence' or 'Discretion' or 'Vigilance' would be better labels for it.

Agreed.

[Fanghur Rahl]

This isn’t so much an idea for an undiscovered Shard as it is speculation of the outcome of a particular combination of Shards, but I recently had an awesome idea for what might result if Harmony somehow managed to acquire Cultivation as well, admittedly requiring the assumption that the three Shards meld together perfectly since they are basically three bits of a single spectrum. 

What would be more poetically fitting than if Sazed became the Shard of ‘Potency’, essentially the quality or ability to act, given that he was a eunuch? I doubt it’ll happen, but it’s awesome fanfic material.

Sazed, the eunuch, becoming the Shard of Potency.

[Krafl]

What about Memory? It could fit the description of "hide and survive"

[Scion of the Mists]

5 hours ago, Krafl said:

What about Memory? It could fit the description of "hide and survive"

The hiding and surviving is only tangentially related to the Shard's intent:

Quote

Seonid

I've heard about a Shard that just wants to survive, hiding off-- it doesn't have a planet it doesn't--

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Seonid

--out there in space, trying to survive. Does it have the intent of like Fear, or something like that?

Brandon Sanderson

The intent is related but only tangentially. Mostly it just knows what's going on and is smart enough to get out of there.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

[Steel Inquisitive]

@Scion of the Mists

I don't know why that wob would discount Memory as a possible shard?

[cometaryorbit]

I was actually just working on a shard quadrants theory a couple of days ago.

I think the divine attributes model is probably correct, but with a tweak.

I think the Shard intents that don't fit the classical divine attributes are actually part of a split one. Odium is what "Wrath" turns into separated from any Honor, Wisdom, or Love type aspect. Ambition is part of 'Creation', the drive to create greater things, probably the natural pair to an Inspiration Shard. Cultivation is I think another part of Creation.

The rest are fairly straightforward:

Devotion = Love

Dominion = Kingship

Endowment = Generosity, possibly even Grace

Autonomy = 'Self-existence' (the "uncaused Cause", not relying on any other entity)

Honor includes Justice, and also (given his bonds emphasis) the concept of 'covenant'

Preservation and Ruin are I think drawn from some forms of Hinduism: Vishnu (Preserver) and Shiva (Destroyer) as aspects of Brahman (the Absolute). The Creator aspect seems to be missing, however.
 

-

 

If we apply the quadrant model, I think the quadrants would be something like (hypothetical ones in italics):

"Supreme Being" - Dominion/Autonomy, Eternity/???

"Creator" - Endowment/Cultivation, Ambition/Inspiration

"Judge" - Devotion/Odium, Honor/Discernment or Wisdom

"Overseeing the Universe?" (need better quadrant name) - Preservation/Ruin. Restoration or Redemption/???*

*I have a feeling that this ought to be a shard that represents change that is neither necessarily entropic (as Ruin) nor growth (as Cultivation), but a reversal of what is established - the concept of "the last shall be first". I have no idea what the name would be though.

[pizzastrology]

On 7/4/2019 at 5:18 AM, cometaryorbit said:

but a reversal of what is established - the concept of "the last shall be first". I have no idea what the name would be though.

Revolution, Redemption, and Apocalypse all fit what you're saying, just with different flavors.

 

edit: Revolution would be a particularly clever Intent, I think, because of the parallel meanings of change and stability, as in political revolution and the revolution of a planet in its orbit around a star. Redemption would be a little too on the narrative nose, I think. And Apocalypse I doubt as a Shard for, eh, plenty of reasons. 

Edited July 6, 2019 by pizzastrology

[Fezzik]

Apocalypse is a greek word we translate as "revelation" or "unveiling", so it could be a cool variant name for wisdom.

[brasidas]

Also, the Shards are pieces of Adonalsium (Surprise!)

I seem to recall something in either Oathbringer or Words of Radiance about Odium being "God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context".

If that's true, perhaps a similar aspect to Adonalsium may be Sorrow, or something related?

 

[Toaster Retribution]

27 minutes ago, brasidas said:

Also, the Shards are pieces of Adonalsium (Surprise!)

I seem to recall something in either Oathbringer or Words of Radiance about Odium being "God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context".

If that's true, perhaps a similar aspect to Adonalsium may be Sorrow, or something related?

 

I’m pretty sure the quote is from a letter sent by either Hoid or Frost. 

Sorrow is a cool idea for a Shard, and an idea I havent seen before. I actually quite like it. The planet that Sorrow is on is probably incredibly depressing though. Tears gives you magic or something. 

Also, welcome to the forums!

[+TheFoxQR]

Could the Ingenuity shard be Guile?

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said:

Could the Ingenuity shard be Guile?

Why would any deity need to lie(I know that this is not necessarily what guile means but still, guile is an extremely human idea)?

[+TheFoxQR]

Just now, Karger said:

Why would any deity need to lie(I know that this is not necessarily what guile means but still, guile is an extremely human idea)?

So are Honor and Odium. And Guile is just cunning technically. So it could be one interpretation of intelligence.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, TheFoxQR said:

So are Honor and Odium. And Guile is just cunning technically. So it could be one interpretation of intelligence.

I expect my deities to have anger and to value honor but I would think that there intelligence would fall under inspiration more then anything else.

[Steel Inquisitive]

Just now, Karger said:

I expect my deities to have anger and to value honor but I would think that there intelligence would fall under inspiration more then anything else.

But in the hands of a human Inspiration as a concept could become a whole lot more selfish.

[Karger]

18 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

But in the hands of a human Inspiration as a concept could become a whole lot more selfish.

But in the hands of a deity it would make a lot of sense while guile would not as a deity generally does not have to worry about outwitting anybody. 

[Steel Inquisitive]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

But in the hands of a deity it would make a lot of sense while guile would not as a deity generally does not have to worry about outwitting anybody. 

My thought bring that while it was a part of Ado it would be Inspiration, but after humans murdered their god and ripped his corpse into pieces, which they took for themselves, it would be an easy transition, in my mind, for what used to be Inspiration to become Guile. (That's a really long run on sentence...)

[Karger]

53 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

My thought bring that while it was a part of Ado it would be Inspiration, but after humans murdered their god and ripped his corpse into pieces, which they took for themselves, it would be an easy transition, in my mind, for what used to be Inspiration to become Guile. (That's a really long run on sentence...)

The magic system might be guile but I think the shard would more properly be called inspiration.  A being with godlike power to figure things out and to help others do the same would be called Inspiration the for the same reasons that Preservation lacked any astonishing survival instincts.  A shards intent refers to its desire to effect other things not its effect on the vessel(otherwise how the hell would Odium function/.).

Edited July 9, 2019 by Karger

[Steel Inquisitive]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

The magic system might be guile but I think the shard would more properly be called inspiration.  A being with godlike power to figure things out and to help others do the same would be called Inspiration the for the same reasons that Preservation lacked any astonishing survival instincts.  A shards intent refers to its desire to effect other things not its effect on the vessel(otherwise how the hell would Odium function/.).

I think Inspiration and Guile are close enough that they could be different interpretations of the same shard. Each shard is just a concept (sometimes really complicated ones) that has been boiled down to a single word. Preservation for instance could probably more accurately been Stasis. Leras was more noble than that and took it more in a "guardian of mankind" way.

I'm not sure what the bolded had to do with this debate? Neither one would act on the vessel.

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

I'm not sure what the bolded had to do with this debate? Neither one would act on the vessel.

A shard of guile would want to increase guile.  This makes no sense whatsoever as a shard.  A sentient force that attempts to make more people better at fooling one another but at the same time better at seeing through being fooled by one another?

[Steel Inquisitive]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

A shard of guile would want to increase guile.  This makes no sense whatsoever as a shard.  A sentient force that attempts to make more people better at fooling one another but at the same time better at seeing through being fooled by one another?

It would be a shard that's encouraging people to be cunning. Guile is just sly intelligence. A shard of Inspiration would be encouraging people to be wise. In my mind it works. If it doesn't for you than I understand.