Shardplate - what is it really for? (full book spoilers)

[Falconite]

This is my first "real" post on this site and haven't seen anything that covers off this topic (I may be wrong, I've only been reading here for a couple of months) so apologies if I am saying something that someone else has thought of...

 

 

After reading WoR, and a: Kaladin can heal shardblade wounds to his arms,
b: Szeth gets reincarnated, c: Jasnah potentially heals knife wounds to the chest
- it made me wonder what shardplate is actually for?  It's not like most of
them need it to survive the fighting - especially when 75% of the radiants
weren't meant to be combatants.

 

And then I had a suspicion - if you're fighting someone like Kaladin and
wound him and you have spheres - he can then inhale the stormlight from them and
use them to heal. 

 

This led me to think - perhaps the original use for Plate was to store your
gems, and prevent other people from inhaling the stormlight from them?  The
fact is also protects you from a few swats of a Blade at the same time is
another advantage.  in tWoK - Szeth mentions that Plate interfered with his
lashings, but in Dalinar's visions we did see Windrunners lashing in Plate (and
yes, part of that could be the Honorblade issue vs inherent
surgebinding). 

 

There are other advantages too - such as being unable to lash people directly
wearing Plate (another quote from Szeth in tWoK), (although I am curious as to
how that works because in Dalinar's vision two Radiants appeared from the sky
and only one was a Windrunner - so perhaps there is a way to lash a comrade
wearing Plate.)  I wonder if this means Plate then makes you immune to most
other surges as well?  i.e. you can't be Soulcast etc?

 

I don't really know - just thought it was something interesting to consider. 

Edited March 10, 2014 by Falconite

[+rhaiynebow]

Great question! And very good points. I hadn't really thought about the fact that someone like Kal wouldn't really *need* shardplate since he can heal from a blow by a shardblade. I'll add more momentarily, but I posted something in the Shallan Relationship thread that sort of applies to this question.

 

Link (I hope it works!):

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6519-shallans-relationship/page-11

 

So while this is a theory about *how* shardplate might come into existence, I guess it still doesn't answer the question you're asking which is what is it's purpose/benefit to a KR?

 

Let me ponder that one and get back to you a little later today after some more research and after I get some food in my system to kickstart my brain LOL!

[Lomeon]

Some very interesting ideas!

 

Also, remember what happened to Adolin's plate when it was struck with the "Voidlightning"? Plate may well protect from other sorts of Voidbinding attacks as well.

 

During Dalinar's visions, he saw Radiants do what appeared to be summoning and dismissing the helms at will, and they glowed with the color of their order. This leads me to believe that the Plate that is being worn now may be nearly as "dead" as the Shardblades they are carrying, compared to their original potential.

[Aleksiel]

Welcome to the forum!

 

Shardplate originally weren't meant to protect from Shardblades, but Voidbringers. It's harder to rip someone's hand when they wear a Plate. Perhaps Shardplates original purpose was to enhance physical attributes. 

 

Szeth said he can't use both surgebinding and Shardplate, but KR in Dalinar's visions had no such problem. Perhaps the gems were added later as was the case with Blades. Because we've seen how exhausting the stormlight in one's Plate makes it so heavier it's hard to move in it, I can't imagine using the gems in it as a resource of stormlight unless truly desperate. 

[Falconite]

Oh the other thing I forgot to mention which I'll add into the OP when I get a chance...  one of the things that made me think about it is that these days the Plate is "powered" by the gems inside the Plate, however:

 

 

given that Spren are Shadeblades and don't need power - I wouldn't think a
full radiant would necessarily need gems to power their Plate...  and maybe
the current sets of Plate have been somewhat turned into a fabrial type device
which then works...
 

Secondly - if a radiant could summon and dismiss their helm at will - maybe
the entire suit could be dismissed at will too?  similar to when Syl
switched within seconds from a Blade to a Spear to a Halberd head to a
shield?  (speaking of which, does anyone else think it's odd that Kaladin
doesn't need 10 heartbeats to summon Syl as a Blade, however in tWoK and
WoR - Shallan mentions and needs 10 heartbeats?

[Nogzio]

Shallan "needing" 10 heartbeats to summon her blade in WOK was more of a psychological thing. She knows that she can summon a blade, but can't remember that the blade is actually her spren. She thinks she just has an ordinary Shardblade and those need 10 heartbeats to summon.

 

We see her multiple times in WOR summing her blade without waiting the 10 heartbeats.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Nogzio

[name_here]

Worth noting that when Kaladin grabbed that helm, it drained his own stormlight, probably because the gems are in the chestplate.

 

Also, Adolin took a direct lighting strike in his plate, and it shrugged it off with no trouble. That's probably what it was originally for.

[Natans]

Well, when you fight a clasmfiend sized voidbringers even if you can heal really fast the risk of receive one hit kill are to great to dismiss a shardplate like armor.

 

Just because you can cure yourself it doen't mean that you can survive massive amounts of damage, and do not forget the cost to cure a wounded body are high (always that Kaladin have to cure himself he loose stormlight to fast).

 

The Shardplate are made to augments that Radiants power in every aspect

 

Attack - Think about what a full infused knight plate assisted could do to a foe - Dalinar claw catch stunt show exactly this.

Defense - Kaladin infused the helmet making it resist several shardblades blows what aren't usally possible.

Additional defensive devices - Onboard black hades to fight  ligthning wielding foes, Resitence against elements attacks like fire and lightning. Surgebinding onboard protector, etc.

 

The Radiants are the Elite troops, They are hard to come by and their numbers are limited, but they are the best weapon against the voidbringers, any defensive advantage that they could get they MUST have because without them figth is almost impossible to win.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Natans

[PudgyNinja]

Here's my question about Shardplate - is it also spren-based?

 

The Radiants in Dalinar's visions could make their helms disappear, so they would seem to some similar properties to shardblades.

 

Syl clearly can take any shape she wants, from a sword, to a spear, to a shield.  There's no reason to think that she couldn't also become armor (aside from the mass difference).

 

Much like active Blades, Plate can reform itself depending on its bearers needs.

 

On the other hand, Radiants don't seem to have the same reaction to interacting with Plate that they do with Blades (Renarin seems to wear the Plate just fine, but hates summoning the Blade).  Is this because the screaming is caused by the bond that allows the user to summon the sword from mist, which they can't do with plate?  Would an unbonded shardblade let the Spren remain dead and therefore not cause the screaming?  Can Plate be bonded?

 

Would a Radiant need to bond with a second spren to get Plate?  Or does Kaladin just need to say more of the oaths to gain the ability for Syl to also provide armor?

[Armless writer]

Brandon recently said during the Q and A in Seattle that spren are not limited to weapons and could become something human sized. So this could support your theory PudgyNinja. Also how does shard plate regenerate from stormlight which seems to be investure based on honor and maybe cultivation? if this theory is true isn't being broken into two parts going to be another reason for the dead spren screaming.

[Natans]

The oathgate have a metal "like" the shardblade and are a fabrial.

 

I'm beating that shardplate are some kind of ubber fabrial done by a Master Radiant with soul casted material. The half shard are a example of fabrial doing what plate do they need improve they fabrial creation knowlegde to create the plates.

 

Navani in which book will bring new fabrial culminating with the plate wait and see =)

[Armless writer]

But how will they be able to regrow themselves and store stormlight in them like shardplate and disappear and reappear before the Recreance? The half shards are just shields with a fabrial on the that increases the strength.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Armless writer

[Witless]

I imagine shadeplate also protects the radient from their stormlight/surge fuelled strength.  Kaladin breaks both his legs kicking someone in the duel an injury he probably could have avoided had he been wearing plate.

[DoctorWh0m]

Speaking of how it's made, did anyone catch that bit in one of the epigraphs (it was from the in-universe Words of Radiance) where it mentioned that the Skybreakers had almost-supernatural skill at making things? I took that to mean that they, perhaps with some help from other orders, were responsible for constructing Shardplate.

[Vortaan]

Well, Szeth does mention that Voidbringers can hold Stormlight perfectly. Perhaps Plate was designed as both an augmentation to the KR as well as a shield against having their Stormlight taken. The original purpose of the gems could have been to fuel Surgebinding, but I'll wager it was actually just like now, to feed the Plate, allowing the Radiant to use the Plate without sacrificing his own Surgebinding.

[Glaring at the Survivor]

The chest. If you get hit in the arm with a Shardblade, you can heal. Hit in the chest and you're dead. Besides, you aren't resistant to a Blade when you're Lit, you can just heal from it.

But… the KR didn't fight people with Blades… we can assume…

[RIT]

I'm of the Shardplate is a giant Fabrial camp. From the way Adolin Describes how someone else's plate feels to the fact that it actually has infused sapphires in it.

Now there are definite advantages like spp935 mentioned Kaladin has a habit of breaking himself while fighting. And the armor feeding itself off your infused stormlight means it will last longer.

As for the helmet retracting I think that is just a neat trick people who are infused with Stormlight can do, with the glyphs showing up again as a side effect (see Kaladin while holding Shallans Shardblade, blue glyphs appear when he holds it he just dismisses them)

[PudgyNinja]

I'm of the Shardplate is a giant Fabrial camp. From the way Adolin Describes how someone else's plate feels to the fact that it actually has infused sapphires in it.

Now there are definite advantages like spp935 mentioned Kaladin has a habit of breaking himself while fighting. And the armor feeding itself off your infused stormlight means it will last longer.

As for the helmet retracting I think that is just a neat trick people who are infused with Stormlight can do, with the glyphs showing up again as a side effect (see Kaladin while holding Shallans Shardblade, blue glyphs appear when he holds it he just dismisses them)

 

The Radiants' plate didn't interfere with their surgebinding at all, whereas Szeth says that Plate would block his ability to Surgebind.  Now, he's using an Honorblade instead of a nahel bond, but I don't see why that would make a difference.  The way the powers work is basically the same, except less efficient.

[RIT]

@Pudgyninja agreed however he also hasn't said any of the Ideals, everytime Kaladin says an ideal he gets greater control over his stormlight and greater retention. After he says the second ideal he holds his breath for 15 minutes straight.

[melancholy]

I wonder if you could lash the person wearing the plate, szeth seems to only try lashing the plate which we know is full of investure but the person wearing it technically isnt, maybe this little distinction is the problem.

[TomR]

I don't think Shardplate is created. First, just taking the name. Shardblades and Shardplate I have never thought are fabrials; due to their name, you'd expect a relation to the Shards from the old, more cosmere-aware Radiants. Shardblades obviously are made from spren who are Splinters of a Shard, so they're explained. But why call it Shardplate? Second, there's Dalinar's question from the first book: why aren't Shards shared? Why do only Radiants get them? Well, Blades are obvious now; they're the spren whom a Surgebinder is bonded to, so they can't be shared. How about Plate, though? It's not shared, either. Plate and Blade always seem to be paired in a Knight Radiant. Why do they only go together? Even if we assume that it was too hard to mass produce and distribute, that all the Plate they make is needed for the battle with the Voidbringers, we've seen Radiants with squires. They have to risk themselves against Thunderclasts, too, and probably Voidbringers. Why don't they get Plate? They're risking their lives, they should get as much protection as possible.

 

So is it a spren? We now have WOB that spren can get up to human size, and we've seen Syl become a full-sized woman twice. However, I see a few problems with the idea. The first is the division mentioned above. Shardblades and Shardplate appear to be distinct items, and over the past centuries they've been separated further. Can the spren divide like this? The second problem has also been mentioned, the lack of screams. Why would Surgebinders and nahel spren have such a strong aversion to Shardblades based on their being dead spren but not mention a similar problem with plate? Finally, Plate just seems more Physical than Blades. The spren are Spiritual and Cognitive, Shardblades cut Spiritually and are lighter than they should be since they don't exist wholly on this plane. Plate, however, is very Physical. It weighs just as much as you expect.  Plus, when you fuel it with Stormlight, the effects are Physical, reacting the same way Surgebinders do when holding Stormlight: the armor can Regrow itself, and it provides an increase to speed and strength.

 

So my own theory is that Plate is akin to gemhearts. Gemhearts, like Atium, are grown as a side effect of the spiritual leakage. Stormlight is most likely the gaseous form of a Shard, which supposedly represents the Shard's Spiritual power. And it is constantly leaking from Surgebinders in the Physical Realm. Beyond that, we have a couple examples of Plate growing. First, there's the way it resizes itself. Second, there's the way it heals itself: Adolin even calls pieces of the armor a seed, which at least for me brings the Growth surge to mind, "Regrowing the armor will go faster if we’ve got a seed (WOR 1012)." As the Spiritual bond between Surgebinder and spren progresses, I expect to see Shardplate grow (the fact that the Heralds didn't have it and the way it grows makes me think it's tied to the Cultivation side of the spren). Being linked to the Surgebinder in such a way would be why its Investiture doesn't interfere with their own abilities.

 

If I'm wrong about that, then I'm with those who think it's a spren. The name, that it apparently comes paired with Blades, that it isn't shared, and that it doesn't interfere with Radiants' Surgebinding makes me think it isn't something created.

Edited March 11, 2014 by TomR

[Grayv]

In the "Words of Brandon (compiled)" it was stated that you could form a Nahel bond with more than one Spren. Maybe one becomes a blade and the other becomes a plate? But that just seems too simple. Maybe one of the orders with progression "grows" it? But that also seems a little too simple. Hmmmm.

[Natans]

I don't believe that Sanderson will play the spren turn in something again. He didn't showed who the plates are originated because he want to make a big deal of it later. We already saw that some ancient Fabrials are muchhhhh more powerful than the modern AKA Oathgate. This Fabrial was made from a metal similar with of the Shardblades, so it is possible to replicate in someway the metal used in the blade.

 

About why not equip all squires with plate. well we don't know who dificult are to create the thing, remeber that in the recreance Vision nort all Radiants had the plate, the windrunners are a foot. If  you had only a few paltes you for sure would use o protect your most powerful warriors.

 

My best guess are the bondsmiths. They must use some kind of spren/cognitive material to create the plate. =)

[TomR]

In the "Words of Brandon (compiled)" it was stated that you could form a Nahel bond with more than one Spren. Maybe one becomes a blade and the other becomes a plate? But that just seems too simple.

I actually meant to include this, but Syl becoming a group of windswept leaves may mean that splitting herself isn't necessarily a problem. And Physicalness may increase as more oaths are said. That's why I'm not discounting the spren theory. 

Edited March 11, 2014 by TomR

[Rust and Ruin]

The Radiants' plate didn't interfere with their surgebinding at all, whereas Szeth says that Plate would block his ability to Surgebind.  Now, he's using an Honorblade instead of a nahel bond, but I don't see why that would make a difference.  The way the powers work is basically the same, except less efficient.

 

I think the difference comes from the fact that shardplate drains the user's stormlight when there is no source nearby (such as the added gemstones), and surgebinding with an honorblade uses far more Stormlight than a nahel bond does (Syl mentions this a number of times - it's the way she identified the honorblade in the first place).

 

 

So my own theory is that Plate is akin to gemhearts. Gemhearts, like Atium, are grown as a side effect of the spiritual leakage. Stormlight is most likely the gaseous form of a Shard, which supposedly represents the Shard's Spiritual power. And it is constantly leaking from Surgebinders in the Physical Realm. Beyond that, we have a couple examples of Plate growing. First, there's the way it resizes itself. Second, there's the way it heals itself: Adolin even calls pieces of the armor a seed, which at least for me brings the Growth surge to mind, "Regrowing the armor will go faster if we’ve got a seed (WOR 1012)." As the Spiritual bond between Surgebinder and spren progresses, I expect to see Shardplate grow (the fact that the Heralds didn't have it and the way it grows makes me think it's tied to the Cultivation side of the spren). Being linked to the Surgebinder in such a way would be why its Investiture doesn't interfere with their own abilities.

 

I've thought about this a lot the past few days and came to a lot of the same conclusions you have, and I'm glad I'm not just being crazy.

 

But I'll go one step further than you did - I think that Chasmfiends are tied to Cultivation (their size and growth can all be attributed to a sort of bond with her spren, which escape as one dies), and Gemhearts (maybe post-pupa chasmfiends?) are a key material in crafting Shardplate. The way Chasmfiends grow and their affinity for Stormlight to pupate seem to be much in the same way as Shardplate regrows with Stormlight. Given the way it acts (sucking in Stormlight to power itself), it may even be a hybrid investiture between Cultivation and Honor to battle Odium's desolations.