Romance you hope will happen?

[djammmer]

7 hours ago, maxal said:

I wonder if I am the only one who isn't overly interested in the Dalinar/Navani romance? Try as hard as I can, I just don't find this particular romance engaging in any potential way.

I like it.  I like the insight in the oathbringer flashbacks into Dalinar's character, and how his feelings towards Navani affected (rashly) certain decisions he made.   I think many people's characters are shaped by wanting things they cannot have; and I like the twist of wanting such a think for so long - and then all the mixed emotions of finally getting it (betraying his brother, public perception, feelings for Navani).   Love how Navani shows up as a character... she doesn't care what anyone else thinks.. She has a confidence and ego to go about her business the way she feels she should.  And I love how she chases/pressures Dalinar... which eventually climaxes in Dalinar telling off Elokar.   One of the top scenes...

So yeah, I like that.

[galendo]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I wonder if I am the only one who isn't overly interested in the Dalinar/Navani romance? Try as hard as I can, I just don't find this particular romance engaging in any potential way.

Nah, I'm kind of in the same boat.  It's not that I think the characters don't belong together or that I have any particular objections to their relationship, since it's clear from their shared history that they belong together more than either do with anyone else.  I think I just find their relationship kind of boring because 1) I find Navani kind of boring; 2) the relationship's already "settled", and has been for at least a book; and 3) the interplay between the characters isn't particularly vibrant.

I guess, in a nutshell, I feel that the entire Dalinar/Navani relationship could have been cut from the story without losing much of anything.  I don't mind having it in there, but I don't think it adds much, either.

As for other relationships, I'm a big fan of Shallin/Adolin, largely because I have an undying hatred of Shallan/Kaladin (I dislike pretty much every scene in which those two interact.  They all require a bunch of plot twisting and out-of-character interactions that really set my teeth on edge.), but also because I find their interactions amusing.

As far as Kaladin, at the moment I'd probably ultimately favor Kaladin/Lift, Kaladin/Syl, and Kaladin/nobody in approximately that order, but I don't think there has to be any rush towards romance on his part.  Kaladin/Lift because I think they'd understand each other and get along well.  Kaladin/Syl because they obviously care for each other already and I could sort of imagine it turning romantic, and Kaladin/nobody because I don't necessarily think that every character arc needs to have romance associated with it, and I'd much rather have no romance than a bad or forced one.  Which means I'd rather have Kaladin/anybody rather than Kaladin/Shallan.

[AerionBFII]

Kaladin once swore he'd rather flirt with a Chasmfiend than Shallan.

 

 

Keep your word Kal.

[ArJhox]

I think that Kaladin's couple will be a character that will appear in the next books... I don't see Kaladin/Shallan and I don't believe Sanderson made a relationship Kaladin/Jasnah, but how know. 

On the other hand it seems clear that the relationship between Dalinar and Navani will advance, although it can arise any problem that does it more interesting . 

[Andy92]

3 hours ago, AerionBFII said:

Kaladin once swore he'd rather flirt with a Chasmfiend than Shallan.

 

 

Keep your word Kal.

So are you detesting the idea of Kaladin with Shallan or are you shipping Kalafiend? 

[AerionBFII]

48 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

So are you detesting the idea of Kaladin with Shallan or are you shipping Kalafiend? 

I just want to watch him squirm mostly. 

Honestly, im fine with Kaladin and Shallan being a couple i thought the had a great chemistry in the chasms but im not really that fussed about it.

It would please and amuse me endlessly if Kal ended up with Jasnah though.

[Humpty]

27 minutes ago, AerionBFII said:

I just want to watch him squirm mostly. 

Honestly, im fine with Kaladin and Shallan being a couple i thought the had a great chemistry in the chasms but im not really that fussed about it.

It would please and amuse me endlessly if Kal ended up with Jasnah though.

I agree I think it would be a great story if Jasnah disguised herself with those eye drops to help with her ease of travel and the like. Kaladin and her fell in love then she reveals who she really is blowing his mind and the rest of that vileness that is still inside of him out.

[maxal]

20 hours ago, djammmer said:

I like it.  I like the insight in the oathbringer flashbacks into Dalinar's character, and how his feelings towards Navani affected (rashly) certain decisions he made.   I think many people's characters are shaped by wanting things they cannot have; and I like the twist of wanting such a think for so long - and then all the mixed emotions of finally getting it (betraying his brother, public perception, feelings for Navani).   Love how Navani shows up as a character... she doesn't care what anyone else thinks.. She has a confidence and ego to go about her business the way she feels she should.  And I love how she chases/pressures Dalinar... which eventually climaxes in Dalinar telling off Elokar.   One of the top scenes...

So yeah, I like that.

See, one of the problems for me is Dalinar's feelings for Navani are never truly broached. We are told he loves her and has loved her since he was a very young man, but we haven't been given any indication as to how this particular love turned out being so powerful. Having read the first four flashbacks from SA3, I can say we aren't finding out: how and why he fell in love with Navani just isn't featured.

Thus, in the absence of a context, I am left with a romance I have no backstory to truly be moved by it. It also does not help I find Navani to be a rather unsympathetic, cold, emotionless and judgmental woman. I appreciate her boldness, her scientific spirit and her "I don't care" attitude, but I don't find her personality engaging.

19 hours ago, galendo said:

Nah, I'm kind of in the same boat.  It's not that I think the characters don't belong together or that I have any particular objections to their relationship, since it's clear from their shared history that they belong together more than either do with anyone else.  I think I just find their relationship kind of boring because 1) I find Navani kind of boring; 2) the relationship's already "settled", and has been for at least a book; and 3) the interplay between the characters isn't particularly vibrant.

I guess, in a nutshell, I feel that the entire Dalinar/Navani relationship could have been cut from the story without losing much of anything.  I don't mind having it in there, but I don't think it adds much, either.

 You raise very good points which I hadn't thought of. Dalinar and Navani's romance is completely devoid of conflict, hardship and even passion... Their union does not add anything particularly significant to the current day narrative: Navani's entire purpose seems to offer in-world perspective on fabrial making which is truly intended for us, the readers. She also serves as the means by which Dalinar nearly drowned himself in jealousy but, again, without the fleshing out of how this love story came to be, it sounds more or less hollow. Well, perhaps hollow is not the right term, but it definitely fails to engage me, on an emotional point of view.

20 hours ago, galendo said:

As for other relationships, I'm a big fan of Shallin/Adolin, largely because I have an undying hatred of Shallan/Kaladin (I dislike pretty much every scene in which those two interact.  They all require a bunch of plot twisting and out-of-character interactions that really set my teeth on edge.), but also because I find their interactions amusing.

Great minds think alike  I recall exactly where I was when I read Shallan/Kaladin's second interaction, right before she got to meet Adolin for the first time and I recall how my brain literally screamed a loud NO. No, no, no. I hadn't read any of the upcoming Shallan/Adolin interactions, but I knew Shallan/Kaladin wasn't ship I wished to see take the sea. 

20 hours ago, galendo said:

As far as Kaladin, at the moment I'd probably ultimately favor Kaladin/Lift, Kaladin/Syl, and Kaladin/nobody in approximately that order, but I don't think there has to be any rush towards romance on his part.  Kaladin/Lift because I think they'd understand each other and get along well.  Kaladin/Syl because they obviously care for each other already and I could sort of imagine it turning romantic, and Kaladin/nobody because I don't necessarily think that every character arc needs to have romance associated with it, and I'd much rather have no romance than a bad or forced one.  Which means I'd rather have Kaladin/anybody rather than Kaladin/Shallan.

I am really getting hyped over the prospect of Kaladin/Lift. I feel these two characters could honestly relate in ways which wouldn't require the intervention of the author to make it happen. I have always felt Kaladin and Shallan were ill-assorted. Kaladin and Jasnah just do not work out for me either as I just can't picture the cold slightly haughty princess with the low born dirty soldier with a solid prejudice against wealth. Also, it isn't so much the older woman/younger man or the rich/poor tropes which doesn't work out for me, but my personal perception of Jasnah which cannot picture her entering a romantic relationship through any other means but cold logic which I find incompatible with Kaladin's character. In other words, those particular tropes aren't a problem for me, but I just feel those two characters are the wrong ones to carry them. Kaladin/Syl suffers from the fact Syl isn't human nor does she have a solid form.

Thus, Kaladin/Lift, Kaladin/someone we haven't yet met or Kaladin/nobody are good with me. I also agree not all characters need romance. As of now, I do think Kaladin doesn't need it, but it will be a long series: these impressions are bound to change throughout the course of time.

Of course, anyone can disagree with me and my personal opinion is likely to evolve as I read the next book. Who knows which ship I'll wish to see set sail after I read book 3? 

[ToJo]

Surprised nobody mentioned Laral. He is bound to see her if he's going to see his parents, right?

[Zennix]

16 hours ago, ToJo said:

Surprised . nobody me. ntioned Laral. He is bound to see her if he's going to see his parents, right?

This should never happen. She doesn't deserve Kaladin. I'm hoping for Kaladin/Jasnah, Kaladin/Lift, Kaladin/Shallash or Kaladin/Syl. Any one of these would be totally awesome in my opinion. I just want the best for my man Kal. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Zennix

[Unhinged]

10 hours ago, ToJo said:

Surprised nobody mentioned Laral. He is bound to see her if he's going to see his parents, right?

I'm hoping for some interaction between them in Oathbringer... and by that I mean I'm hoping he punches her in the face.

After the way she treated him last time they spoke she deserves it. That said she's been married to an abusive jerk for years now so after he punches her I'm hoping he at least comforts her but i think their relationship is over.

[Vissy]

I'm still hoping for some kind of romance between human and spren. I think it's a really cool idea - not original at all, but cool and calls back to many old mythologies. Man and spirit, etc etc

[gruntle]

For some reason i find myself shipping kaladin with shallash, i have no basis for this, my imagination just keeps returning to it.

[Reborn radiant]

I know, I know this is going to sound really really stupid. But I totally want kaladin x rysn to happen. Rysn is my favorite interlude character, hands down (I don't even know why, I just love her), and Kaladin x rysn will be my ship that will definitely break my heart because we all know it isn't going to happen.

[Reborn radiant]

2 hours ago, Rob Lucci said:

I'm still hoping for some kind of romance between human and spren. I think it's a really cool idea - not original at all, but cool and calls back to many old mythologies. Man and spirit, etc etc

Pattern vibrates and shallan is a teenager.
Just saying.

[Farnsworth]

10 hours ago, Zennix said:

Kaladin/Jasnah

I find this idea very disturbing. Don't know why. I really hope it does not happen.

[maxal]

16 minutes ago, Figberts said:

I find this idea very disturbing. Don't know why. I really hope it does not happen.

I don't like it either. The age gap isn't something I am comfortable with and while such unions do happen, within real life, I find 34/19 is too much of an age difference.

I also really, really do not see stone cold Jasnah passionately engaging herself with grumpy dirty Kaladin. It just does not work. Kaladin would also never manage to stimulate Jasnah's intellect: she deals with philosophy, Kaladin knows nothing about it and cares nothing for  it. I personally disagree Kaladin is that kind of smart: he has proven his smarts have limits (just as anyone else). He really isn't a scholar and I don't think Jasnah would ever be interested in a non-scholar.

 

[Vissy]

Kaladin could be book-smart if he dedicated himself to it (though who knows, maybe he wouldn't have been so successful in Kharbranth as a surgeon, though then again maybe he would've met up with Mr. T instead then), but right now he's more of a witty soldier armed with a vocabulary usually only reserved for the nobility.

Jasnah won't even bat an eye at Kaladin. He'll get the exact same treatment as any other man gets from Jasnah, except maybe she'll be extra-mean to Kaladin just because he's the kind of guy whom everyone likes to pick on.

Most appropriate are IMO, and in that order:

1. Kaladin/Shallan

2. Kaladin/Lift

3. Kaladin/uhhh maybe Syl?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[maxal]

Just now, Rob Lucci said:

Kaladin could be book-smart if he dedicated himself to it (though who knows, maybe he wouldn't have been so successful in Kharbranth as a surgeon, though then again maybe he would've met up with Mr. T instead then), but right now he's more of a witty soldier armed with a vocabulary usually only reserved for the nobility.

He has no interest into becoming book smart. He also easily discourage himself whenever he has to put in a real effort: everything came to him easily, he isn't use to have to work for it. First time he takes a sword, he hates it because he isn't good at it. I really do not think he has what it takes to be a scholar. Nothing wrong with that, it is just not his thing.

[Vissy]

He's really arrogant for someone with his backstory, you mean to say.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Rob Lucci

[maxal]

1 minute ago, Rob Lucci said:

He's really arrogant for someone with his backstory, you mean to say.

I wouldn't say that. People tend to overlook the fact Kaladin was raised to be the special snowflake into a very small village. Out there, he was the smartest and the one destined to a great future. He was told he could aim high and whatever he was asked to accomplish, he did it with minimal effort. It is easy to be arrogant when you are spontaneously good at anything you try upon the first day. Be it surgery or spear fighting, Kaladin was just that good.

Unfortunately for him, nobody is good at everything, so he was bond to end up in a situation where he wouldn't shine upon the first day. 

I think there is a stark difference in between Adolin who values hard-work, perseverance and experience over Kaladin who values raw skill. People tend to think one is smarter than the other because intuitive individual appear smarter on a first day, but in the long run, I am not so sure. Hence, I have never been convinced in Kaladin's supposed superior intelligence. 

As for Jasnah, I think she is a mix of intuitive and hard-work which makes her a redoubtable adversity when it comes to wits. She is intuitively smart enough to appear smart, ona first day, but she values hard-work and is humble enough to not stop there.

Shipping wise, I really don't ship Kaladin with anyone right now. I'd rather he doesn't get a love interest within the near future, but I think book 3 will end with him and Shallan being in a relationship. The one year gap does lent to it.

[Vissy]

Kaladin *is* smarter than Adolin, though. This is implied in the books at every opportunity there is to compare them.

I hope he'll end up with Shallan, even if just temporarily. At least it's a ship I can get behind.

[maxal]

16 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

Kaladin *is* smarter than Adolin, though. This is implied in the books at every opportunity there is to compare them.

I hope he'll end up with Shallan, even if just temporarily. At least it's a ship I can get behind.

I disagree. What evidence is there of Kaladin's superior intelligence? Word play? Banter? Knowing glyphs in a world where it is not well seen for men to read them? Hardly the only ways to measure intelligence. Who compares them? Shallan? Shallan has never seen Adolin in situations where he intellectually excels. She saw him duel, but she failed to grasp what he was actually doing.

Adolin is able to grasp the large scope implications of every single battle he goes into. He is apt at using his environment to his advantage. He isn't non-knowledgeable, just reluctant to disclose his own wits (he is perfectly aware of Shallan's theory on harvesting chasmfiends, but he doesn't readily admit it because women expect him to be dumb, so he acts the part), usually downplaying them, but he does use general knowledge whenever applicable. Whenever nobody is looking at him.

I personally disagree the books imply Kaladin is smarter. I agree Kaladin believes he is smarter and since we are reading his POV most of the time we are lent to believe he is, but book evidence shows Adolin is much smarter than he gives himself credit for and much smarter than basically everyone gives him credit for. The stuff he pulls off aren't the work of an average intelligence man and/or a simpleton. Average intelligent men aren't able to craft complicated strategies on the spot nor are they able to use they skill set to produce the best effect: Adolin doesn't just win, he does it in ways which furthers his father's cause. He's a strategist and good strategists are, on average, very smart.

Kaladin hasn't shown this particular ability: he is average at strategy as a whole (he usually fails to get it whenever it moves outside the scope of protecting a handful of selected people). All he has shown is he knows about surgery (he was taught, easy to know something we were obliged to learn), he loves word play and he thinks himself very smart (easy to feel this way when basically everyone you know are less instructed than yourself).

Mind, I don't mean to say Kaladin isn't smart, but I do think he isn't as smart as some readers are making him out to be (which is as smart as say Jasnah), just as I disagree he is smarter than Adolin. Adolin is just as smart, but in different ways. 

[Radiant_Jaeger]

I am actually hoping for some Jasnah and someone completely unexpected... one of the bridgemen. Lighteyes and Dark eyes needs to be done (also Kal doesn't count since Radiant eyes) 

Also could do with a little less prudishness. It's getting really annoying to the point where I don't even think Alethi remove their clothes to have kids... 

I like Lift and Renarin though. Polar opposites attract

[geralt]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I disagree. What evidence is there of Kaladin's superior intelligence? Word play? Banter? Knowing glyphs in a world where it is not well seen for men to read them? Hardly the only ways to measure intelligence. Who compares them? Shallan? Shallan has never seen Adolin in situations where he intellectually excels. She saw him duel, but she failed to grasp what he was actually doing.

Adolin is able to grasp the large scope implications of every single battle he goes into. He is apt at using his environment to his advantage. He isn't non-knowledgeable, just reluctant to disclose his own wits (he is perfectly aware of Shallan's theory on harvesting chasmfiends, but he doesn't readily admit it because women expect him to be dumb, so he acts the part), usually downplaying them, but he does use general knowledge whenever applicable. Whenever nobody is looking at him.

I personally disagree the books imply Kaladin is smarter. I agree Kaladin believes he is smarter and since we are reading his POV most of the time we are lent to believe he is, but book evidence shows Adolin is much smarter than he gives himself credit for and much smarter than basically everyone gives him credit for. The stuff he pulls off aren't the work of an average intelligence man and/or a simpleton. Average intelligent men aren't able to craft complicated strategies on the spot nor are they able to use they skill set to produce the best effect: Adolin doesn't just win, he does it in ways which furthers his father's cause. He's a strategist and good strategists are, on average, very smart.

Kaladin hasn't shown this particular ability: he is average at strategy as a whole (he usually fails to get it whenever it moves outside the scope of protecting a handful of selected people). All he has shown is he knows about surgery (he was taught, easy to know something we were obliged to learn), he loves word play and he thinks himself very smart (easy to feel this way when basically everyone you know are less instructed than yourself).

Mind, I don't mean to say Kaladin isn't smart, but I do think he isn't as smart as some readers are making him out to be (which is as smart as say Jasnah), just as I disagree he is smarter than Adolin. Adolin is just as smart, but in different ways. 

First of all, I have to say I agree about Adolin being smart, but I think the fact that Kaladin is implied to be more than that is actually made very clear in the book. Like for example in the scene where he points out how if Shallan wanted to see a chrisalis, she didn't have to go out with the expedition and she compares them. The exact quote is:

"Blast. A solid argument. It was a good thing Adolin hadn’t thought of that. The prince was wonderful, and he certainly wasn’t stupid, but he was also . . . mentally direct.
This bridgeman was proving himself different. The way he watched her, the way he thought. Even, she realized, the way he spoke. He talked like an educated lighteyes."