The Ultimate List of Questions for Brandon

[Curiosity]

Is Taravangian a Sliver?

 

Based on this.

[ParadoxicalZen]

Would there be an effect if someone swallowed a bead of Atium if they weren't a genetic/Lerasium-made allomancers? Or would that require Saze/Harmony to add the same amount of Investiture Preservation did when giving the Scadrians sentience?

[Oudeis]

Thus far, we have seen feruchemical copper store exclusively episodic memory; specific recollections of experiences. Current scienctific thought on the matter suggests that there are three distinct kinds of memory humans possess; the other two are procedural memory (what you probably call muscle memory) when a specific physical task becomes so repetitive that it no longer requires explicit thought; skill at sports tends to fall into this, as do things like typing (when most people decide to type a W, they don't think about it, their left ring finger just inches up slightly and strikes). The last is semantic memory, which includes langauges, rules, and skills. That's why Jason Bourne knows English, and German. He can't remember anything about learning German, but the actual knowledge of the language is stored in a different part of the brain. Whether or not you remember the first time someone told you that red means stop and what a blinker is, you probably still know "the rules of the road".

 

Can feruchemical copper store semantic/procedural memory? I played Heroes of the Storm with my cousin last night. Halfway through the night, he switched characters. For the first battle after that, every time he wanted to stun the enemy, his fingers hit E, instead of Q. If he were an Archivist, could he have a small penny labeled "Muradin", and when he's done playing he stores the procedural memory in it, and then draws out the memory of Malfurion to play Malfurion without trying to use Muradin's powers?

[Kurkistan]

Good question.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

Thus far, we have seen feruchemical copper store exclusively episodic memory; specific recollections of experiences. Current scienctific thought on the matter suggests that there are three distinct kinds of memory humans possess; the other two are procedural memory (what you probably call muscle memory) when a specific physical task becomes so repetitive that it no longer requires explicit thought; skill at sports tends to fall into this, as do things like typing (when most people decide to type a W, they don't think about it, their left ring finger just inches up slightly and strikes). The last is semantic memory, which includes langauges, rules, and skills. That's why Jason Bourne knows English, and German. He can't remember anything about learning German, but the actual knowledge of the language is stored in a different part of the brain. Whether or not you remember the first time someone told you that red means stop and what a blinker is, you probably still know "the rules of the road".

 

Can feruchemical copper store semantic/procedural memory? I played Heroes of the Storm with my cousin last night. Halfway through the night, he switched characters. For the first battle after that, every time he wanted to stun the enemy, his fingers hit E, instead of Q. If he were an Archivist, could he have a small penny labeled "Muradin", and when he's done playing he stores the procedural memory in it, and then draws out the memory of Malfurion to play Malfurion without trying to use Muradin's powers?

 

Adding to that, can a Feruchemist Store how they felt about a certain event?

So say they were walking down the street and they got stabbed. Could they instead of storing the memory of being stabbed just store the pain they felt. They can remember being stabbed but not how it felt.

[Oudeis]

Probably not; you can store memory of the entire event, but there's no evidence to suggest that you can store only aspects of the event. Even if you could store "how you felt", still remembering "oh wow I got stabbed and almost died" would likely terrify you anew.

 

Can repressed memories be stored? While Shallan was still in her fugue state and had no conscious access to those memories, could she have stuck them in their black box into a coppermind, if she were a feruchemist? Would that have resolved her underlying trauma?

 

If you suffer trauma and experience PTSD, would storing the memory of the trauma eliminate your PTSD?

[Dunkum]

If you suffer trauma and experience PTSD, would storing the memory of the trauma eliminate your PTSD?

this probably requires several advanced degrees in psychology to even begin to answer...

[Ari]

What I want to know is if Harmony is actually merging the held shards to any degree, or if Ruin and Preservation would remain seperate if Sazed no longer held them. I suspect it's the latter but would love some confirmation on that.

 

 

 

Is Taravangian a Sliver?

 

Based on this.

 

Worth considering if he was being influenced by one of the Unmade too, given that his plan seems to set him up in opposition to Dalinar, who we know is being influenced by a Spren with reasonable motives.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Ari

[Moogle]

Worth considering if he was being influenced by one of the Unmade too, given that his plan seems to set him up in opposition to Dalinar, who we know is being influenced by a Spren with reasonable motives.

 

I understand what you're getting at, but I don't know if I'd call the Stormfather reasonable by any stretch of the word. He did sort of try to murder a bunch of people. He might oppose Odium, but I don't find very much that is admirable in the Stormfather. He didn't bond Dalinar to help fight like Syl or Pattern, he was unwillingly bonded.

 

Just because Taravangian is in opposition to Dalinar does not necessarily mean he's working for Odium. Good people can come into conflict over how to accomplish things. Dalinar might say Taravangian is doing things that should never be done, Taravangian might say that Dalinar is willing to let humanity die so he can feel better about himself.

 

The conflict is unfortunate, but you can hardly expect Dalinar to condone the murder of innocents, and you can hardly expect Taravangian to just sit on his hands knowing he could be doing more to improve humanity's chances of survival. They both have the same goal.

 

The idea about Unmade makes me curious though - the Unmade seem to hibernate. Are they all awake as of the end of WoR?

Edited September 1, 2015 by Moogle

[Ari]

I understand what you're getting at, but I don't know if I'd call the Stormfather reasonable by any stretch of the word. He did sort of try to murder a bunch of people. He might oppose Odium, but I don't find very much that is admirable in the Stormfather. He didn't bond Dalinar to help fight like Syl or Pattern, he was unwillingly bonded.

 

Just because Taravangian is in opposition to Dalinar does not necessarily mean he's working for Odium. Good people can come into conflict over how to accomplish things. Dalinar might say Taravangian is doing things that should never be done, Taravangian might say that Dalinar is willing to let humanity die so he can feel better about himself.

 

The conflict is unfortunate, but you can hardly expect Dalinar to condone the murder of innocents, and you can hardly expect Taravangian to just sit on his hands knowing he could be doing more to improve humanity's chances of survival. They both have the same goal.

 

The idea about Unmade makes me curious though - the Unmade seem to hibernate. Are they all awake as of the end of WoR?

 

Sorry, I should say the instructions he was given were reasonable. You're quite right that the Stormfather is really damaged in personality and has some screwed up motives.

 

I'm not implying, FYI, that Taravangian is working directly for Odium. I'm wondering if one of the Unmade influenced his mind when he was making The Diagram, and now they're acting out a plausible plan that will probably meet their stated goal of preserving some of humankind, but is ultimately also serving Odium's intent in opposing the mission of the Knights Radiant.

 

(edit: because I think that Taravangian and friends are mistaken about Odium's end goal. He doesn't want to utterly destroy humankind, he wants to be a tyrant over everyone else in the cosmere, and to torture them and make them all suffer so they'll hate him and hate each other. So the Nightwatcher gives him the capacity to build the diagram... but then one of the unmade sweeps in and whispers into his mind so that he comes to just enough of the wrong conclusions on key motivations and events that Taravangian ends up helping Odium at his true goal, while still saving some of mankind, because hey, Odium's all about having people to rule and/or torture)

Edited September 1, 2015 by Ari

[Oudeis]

What I want to know is if Harmony is actually merging the held shards to any degree, or if Ruin and Preservation would remain seperate if Sazed no longer held them. I suspect it's the latter but would love some confirmation on that.

 

If Sazed died, he would drop a single Shard; Harmony.

 

EDIT:

 

My own question. Miles is a Compounder; his two traits directly interact. Wax is... we don't really have a word for it I don't think. He has two distinct metallic traits which do not directly interact, but provide him with complementary abilities that make either power greater than the sum of its parts.

 

Would Lift be considered a Compounder like Miles, someone like Wax, or a third category all her own? Assume it's in-universe scholars doing the considering, e.g. the Ars Arcanist (Artist Arcana?).

Edited September 4, 2015 by Oudeis

[Silverblade5]

It seems to be that time, so if there aren't any objections, I'm going to make a copy of the OP and start a new thread.

[Chaos]

It seems to be that time, so if there aren't any objections, I'm going to make a copy of the OP and start a new thread.

No, I disagree that a new thread is needed. 100 pages is arbitrary and I want it centralized here. There is no benefit to there being another topic and I have closed the second topic, Silver.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Chaos

[Silverblade5]

No, I disagree that a new thread is needed. 100 pages is arbitrary and I want it centralized here. There is no benefit to there being another topic and I have closed the second topic, Silver.

Alright. Sorry I jumped the gun on that. Won't happen again.

[hafje]

 

My own question. Miles is a Compounder; his two traits directly interact. Wax is... we don't really have a word for it I don't think. He has two distinct metallic traits which do not directly interact, but provide him with complementary abilities that make either power greater than the sum of its parts.

 

Would Lift be considered a Compounder like Miles, someone like Wax, or a third category all her own? Assume it's in-universe scholars doing the considering, e.g. the Ars Arcanist (Artist Arcana?).

Interesting question. I think she fits in the same category as Wax. Both of them have a mixing of two powers (Lift having control over 2 surges and Wax being a Twinborn). Technically Miles would also fit in here but he has the luck that his abilities directly enhance each other.

This reminds me of something I thought about recently. If Lift and all other KRs get a unique power by mixing two surges and thus two kinds of Investiture, why wouldn't twinborn get some similar unique power by mixing an Allomantic and a Feruchemical power?

[Oudeis]

For Lift, i was talking about her ability to metabolize stormlight. Is her generation of a power to fuel her Surges Compounding (i.e., two different types of arcana directly affecting each other) or simple synergy (two different arcana operating separately, yielding utility beyond the reach of either alone).

 

The short answer is, because one is Surgebinding and one is the Metallic Arts, and there are many differences between those things.

 

To expand a little, the mix of two Surges are all within one arcana. A Twinborn is someone with one power each from two different arcana. A better parallel would be someone with two allomantic metals.

 

And again... this isn't the best answer, I realize, but Surgebinding just works differently. The default Surgebinder always has exactly two Surges, and they will always interact, and they will always be one of 10 pre-selected pairs. By contrast, all allomancers are either Mistings with a single metal, or Mistborn with all sixteen. That we know of, Mistborn do not get anything special for mixing their metals, beyond what simple utility would account for. There are far more differences between allomancy and surgebinding than just this, and the only real answer is, why would they be similar in that one specific way?

[hafje]

I get what you're saying but each Surge seems to be more of its own magical system than each metal. I mean, Brandon has said several times that there are up to 30 different magic systems on Roshar, so he counted every Surge as a separate one.

And for the rest it seems weird to me that you could just mix two different magic systems without at least getting some kind of consequence.

But of course it's all just speculation on my part.

Now that I'm thinking of it, this could explain why Wax seemed to be the first to use a 'steel bubble'.

Edited September 6, 2015 by hafje

[Oudeis]

Really? Can you provide an example of a time he says this? Because this quote makes it look like he tends to say, it depends on what you consider to be a "magic system". Turning the question around, so that we don't know what he considers to be a magic system. To paraphrase, is allomancy all one magic system? Or is each metal its own magic system?

Most of the quotes I've seen from him on this subject equivocate like this; "it all depends on how you think of it." I feel, however, that you have to be consistent. If you say that each Surge is its own magic, I think you'd have to then also admit that each metal is its own magic, if that's your definition. If you lump all the metals which all obey a specific set of rules, in their own way, as one system, "allomancy", then you must keep that definition consistent and consider each Surge, all obeying a specific set of rules in their own way, as one system, "Surgebinding".

[Moogle]

This reminds me of something I thought about recently. If Lift and all other KRs get a unique power by mixing two surges and thus two kinds of Investiture, why wouldn't twinborn get some similar unique power by mixing an Allomantic and a Feruchemical power?

 

I don't agree with this line of thinking. I would say that it isn't that KR get a special power by mixing two Surges, it's that KR get a special power by binding one unique spren.

 

For example, imagine you bond two spren (this is possible in theory by WoB) and get access to four Surges. Do you get a unique power for every pair (so, 6 unique abilities) or are you going to get 2? I would strongly strongly predict you're just going to get two.

[Oudeis]

I don't agree with this line of thinking. I would say that it isn't that KR get a special power by mixing two Surges, it's that KR get a special power by binding one unique spren.

 

For example, imagine you bond two spren (this is possible in theory by WoB) and get access to four Surges. Do you get a unique power for every pair (so, 6 unique abilities) or are you going to get 2? I would strongly strongly predict you're just going to get two.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this line of thinking. I got the impression that the "mixed" power was... literally just using the two Surges in conjunction. For example, Jasnah. Many people suspect her ability to Soulcast at range is a mix of Transportation and Transformation. So, if she somehow got access to Gravitation, would she maybe be able to apply a Basic Lashing at range?

 

How to put this... your reasoning assumes that each "mixed Surge" is, itself, a separate and fundamental power, like a special ability in a video game. In my head, I see them more like Wax's utility with his steelpushes; he doesn't get a "third ability" by simple virtue of being a twinborn, he just has two arcana which happen to interact in a way which lets him do things that no one with only either power alone could use.

 

Now of course, there might be some Surges that simply do not mix well. It's possible that Cohesion and Abrasion don't actually do anything together. So it's not as simple as "every two Surges will grant a special third power". I see it more like, "Anyone with access to two Surges will sometimes be able to combine the abilities in ways that will appear to outsiders as a third, unique ability."

 

Of course, there's an alternate theory, which is dominant Surges. Every Radiant we've seen much of (I'm trying to exclude Renarin; what few arcane things we've seen from him are confusing and up for much debate until some stuff about him is revealed) has shown a tendency to be superior at one Surge rather than the other, and it's always the Surge anti-clockwise to them on the Chart. Jasnah Soulcasts all the live-long day, but cannot Elsecall closer than a week's walk to literally any human village. Shallan can't force a stick to be fire, but Lightweaving comes as natural to her as breathing (granted she's a somewhat special case, but what we know of her before the mental block went up, she was always better at Lightweaving than Soulcasting). Ym uses Regrowth and doesn't even know he's got another Surge; by comparison, Lift has been slipping and sliding for weeks, is just learning Growth, and has never Regrown. Kaladin spends the first book using Adhesion, and even instinctively uses the Reverse Lashing which some people suspect is the mixed-ability, but doesn't Basic Lash until the second book.

 

I think every Radiant has a main Surge. I think all of these "mixed" abilities are the lesser Surge somehow adding a modifier to the dominant one. Jasnah can Soulcast; her lesser surge of Transportation modifies this to let her Cast at range. Shallan can craft illusions; her lesser Surge of transformation, as Pattern comments at one point, lets her modify the real world to be more like her art.

 

I grant it's not a terribly solid theory; I'm not quite sure if I wrap my head about the Reverse Lashing being "gravity helps adhesion", if that even is the Windrunner "third ability". And, of course, apart from Ym and Renarin, we've never seen two Knights of the same Order up close. It could just be that any given Radiant is going to tend to pick one Surge or the other and specialize, and it has just worked out so that the few we've seen have always gone anti-clockwise on the Chart.

 

While I'm on the subject: I have bookmarked a post that used to have the full Chart with labels and everything, but I just checked and the post has been modified somehow so it doesn't show the chart. Does anyone have a good link to a labeled Surgebinding Chart I can re-bookmark?

[Moogle]

...

 

My apologies, I think my post was unclear. I was referring to the idea of each Radiant getting a unique power - as in, Windrunners getting extra squires, Lightweavers getting memory abilities - likely being the result of bonding a spren. I don't think it's the result of mixing two Surges.

 

Re-reading the post I responded to, I may have misinterpreted them. But I don't know of any unique powers present in the KR besides those.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said in the first part of your post, though I am very hesitant on the idea of there being dominant Surges. I think the pattern we see there is more likely just an artifact of Brandon trying to keep things simple for the readers. Covering in-depth Soulcasting mechanics and an exploration of Shadesmar and an exploration of Lightweaving seems like too much for Brandon to cover when Shallan's chapters have to cover so much else, and in-character she's so overwhelmed it makes sense for her to stick with what she knows (and previously practiced as a child).

 

Not to mention the fact that the pattern really doesn't seem to hold too strongly.

• Kaladin's first use of Surgebinding is Gravity for a Reverse Lashing (the Ars Arcanum author theorizes it is Gravity, anyway, and I am inclined to believe them), but he uses both Surges consistently throughout the book.
• Lift uses both of her Surges without a problem in her Interlude, even going so far as to instinctively use an advanced technique of Regrowth which Wyndle says she isn't ready for and she's just heard she can do.
• Shallan has very few problems with Soulcasting - she takes to it naturally, even doing it unconsciously at first with the goblet. She figures out how to slip into Shadesmar with ease, even figuring out how to keep herself from going all the way in, all without instruction. She Soulcasts an entire ship, a feat which Jasnah has yet to come close to performing (unless you count the boulders in Kharbranth). The only problem she seemingly has with Soulcasting comes when she's bedraggled, exhausted, and depressed. I think people overstate her issues with it - the problem seems to be her lack of practice, something Jasnah has had a lot of.
• Ym and Jasnah are the only two examples otherwise that fit the pattern. (And I could argue Transportation is just something Jasnah didn't want to risk doing because it would raise people's suspicions. She could get away with her "Soulcaster", but if she suddenly appears miles away and no one saw her leave her quarters?)

Edited September 6, 2015 by Moogle

[Oudeis]

Ooooh. Yeah I had assumed hafje was talking about this.

 

Now I have no idea what we're talking about. But yeah I definitely believe Shallan's artistic talents are unique to the Lightweavers; if someone got the Elsecaller and Truthwatcher Honorblades and technically had access to both Illumination and Transformation, I do not believe they would get Shallan's capacity with art.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Oudeis

[ParadoxicalZen]

Aye, the Lightweavers had odd mnemonic abilities. I think in addition to the Surges, this extra ability/power is more of a passive one than active. How the Surges interplay with each other seems to be more of how the respective Radiant perceives/uses them but until we see more of each Order, it is going to be tricky. I mean, Kaladin for example is more a fighter whereas another Windrunner might be a master tactician and instead use the Surges for tactics/trickery/planning/traps etc (loose example but you get my drift)

[Oudeis]

Would it be a good rule-of-thumb to say that if you can burn gold to see a specific "other you" as a Goldshadow, it's "plausible" enough that a decent soulforger could make a Soulstamp to become that person?

[natc]

Related, is it possible to control how far back the shadow goes in your life before it starts extrapolating the other possibility it shows?