Theory: Shardblades are Odiumspren

[skaa]

In WoK, we encounter three types of Shardblade:

• Honorblades - Owned by the Heralds who are bound by the Oathpact. Doesn't turn owners into Lighteyes. Disappears when owner dies. Seems to be permanently bound to the owner. Can be summoned from thin air.
   
• "Radiantblades" - Once owned by Knights Radiant. Now owned by a number of Lighteyes. Appears when owner dies, and can be taken by another person. Can be summoned from thin air.
   
• "Truthlessblades" - Found in Shinovar. Owned by Shin warriors who become Truthless and therefore honor-bound to follow the bearer of their Oathstone. These blades light their owners' eyes, but only while being held. Can be passed to another owner when the current owner dies. Can be summoned from thin air.

These blades have a few things in common. For one, they can all be summoned. I'm assuming Honorblades also require ten heartbeats before appearing, just like the other two types. Also common among these blades are their magical cutting and killing abilities. Whatever else they might be, all Shardblades are deadly weapons.

 

Here's the story behind the theory I'm about to discuss (in spoiler tags since it's not really necessary):

It has been theorized before that Shardblades are Roshar's equivalent of Scadrial's God metals, and that Honorblades are Honor's power in sword form. The theory implies that either Truthlessblades or Radiantblades (or perhaps both) are actually "Odiumblades". If Radiantblades are Odiumblades, the Knights Radiant would be the Roshar equivalent of Elend's Atium soldiers, warriors on the side of good that use an antagonistic Shard's power. There would also have to be a Cultivationblade (either Radiantblades, Truthlessblades, or some other Shardblade type we haven't seen) under this model to complete the trio of Shards.
 
Even though I find the concept of a "Cultivationblade" rather hard to grasp, the above theory seems pretty sound to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be correct.
 
But... I no longer desire to espouse that theory.
 
I admit my reasons are a bit vague. One rather silly reason is that other powers connected to Honor involve binding things together, which doesn't seem to fit with what swords do. Another reason is that the biggest distinguishing characteristic of an Honorblade, that it disappears when the owner dies, really has nothing to do with the concept of honor. So what's so honorable about Honorblades aside from them being owned by the Honor's Heralds?
 
Again, the reasons for my doubt aren't very strong. But they made me think of an alternative, but similar, theory. Allow me to describe it here, then feel free to judge for yourself.

 

So let's start.

All things in Roshar have spren, which I believe are Cognitive entities on Roshar that have "wavefunctions" and that might (though not always) be visible. We've already seen spren that have something to do with one of the Shards: Honorspren, spren who are attracted to honorable people. Honorspren are special because they grant powers even without being "trapped" in a fabrial. The powers that Honorspren grant all have something to do with binding things together.
 
My theory is about a spren for another Shard on Roshar: an Odiumspren. I think Odium has a Shardic Intent that is the opposite of Honor's. Simply put, Odiumspren would grant people the power to divide things.
 
What magical entities have we seen on Roshar that can divide things very, very well?
 
Why, Shardblades, of course. That's why I think all Shardblades (including Honorblades) are Odiumspren.
 
*** start of wild, base-less speculation ***
 
The ten heartbeats requirement is a clue. From Geranid the Ardent, we know that spren have quantum dynamic properties. I think Geranid's Interlude chapter was meant to show us that spren "wavefunctions" collapse in the Physical realm when certain measurements are made. For flamespren, just measuring the size already makes them stop changing size, shape, and luminosity. Counting ten heartbeats is another act of measurement, and combined with an intent to summon, I think this collapses the wavefunction of an Odiumspren bound to a person, making it appear in the Physical realm as a magic sword.
 
Honorspren like Syl don't really make people more honorable, but instead reward honorable actions with power. Similarly, Shardblades/Odiumspren don't really make people more hateful or selfish, yet once a Shardbearer starts feeling odious emotions, killing suddenly becomes a lot easier. This "odium-based enhancement" is what Szeth experiences whenever he becomes particularly angry with an assassination target, and it's possibly connected to the Thrill felt by the Alethi in battle. I think Odiumspren feed on odium to boost Szeth's Lashing ability, the same way Syl feeds on Kaladin's honorable acts to boost his own Lashings.
 
And it doesn't even have to be in sword form. Looking back at the assassination of King Hanavanar, Szeth was even more deadly when he started irrationally blaming the king for his own actions, even though he let go of his Shardblade mid-fight. I think the Odiumspren bound to him was still powering his hatred even in its non-collapsed form.
 
One apparent difference between Shardblades and Honorspren is that Honorspren are sentient and humanoid while Shardblades are not. I'm speculating that the sentient (probably humanoid) part of Odiumspren only manifests in Shadesmar, and that it is this aspect of the Odiumspren that feeds on the odious thoughts of people.
 
I believe we'll be seeing the "true" form of Odiumspren once the characters start travelling around Shadesmar in future books. Also, you know how the Heralds were tortured in between Desolations? I think I know who the torturers were: the true forms of their own Honorblades.
 
*** end of wild, base-less speculation ***
 
So, that's my theory. Later I would like to theorize further on why the Honorblades were thus named, why Szeth isn't a permanent Lighteyes, and why Hoid claims that Lighteyes have a "good reason" to rule. But first I want to see if my main theory contradicts what we already know from WoK or WoB. If there's a major flaw in the theory, please point it out right away.
 
Edit: Since my speculations and arguments regarding this theory span multiple posts, and since some people gave interesting arguments against the theory, I guess I might as well link to those:

• Speculation: The nature of Voidbinding, Honorblades, the Oathpact, and the founding of the Knights Radiant
• Speculation: The history of the genetic Lighteyes effect, and why Szeth isn't Lighteyes
• Counter evidence: Szeth isn't bound to a spren
• Counter evidence: Different spren are either from Honor, Cultivation, or both
• Counter evidence: Amaram's Shardblade has a gem on its pommel
• Counter evidence: Shardblades don't always need ten heartbeats to appear
• Counter evidence: Brandon likes Shardblades
• A summary of things explained by the Shardblades are Odiumspren theory
• Further similarities between spren and Shardblades

 

Edit: I still think that Shardblades could be spren, but since some people seem absolutely convinced that they must be Physical objects, I'm going to offer a compromise by proposing instead that Shardblades are objects powered by odiumspren (which would reside in the gemstone attached to them).

Edited June 21, 2013 by skaa

[Galavantes]

My only real nitpick is that spren are the result of Honor having been splintered, just like the Seons from elantris

 

Odium hasn't been splintered so he wouldn't have spren. Now that doesn't mean that shardblades aren't of Odium, they just wouldn't be spren. Perhaps regular spren that have been perverted however. 

Edited June 7, 2013 by Galavantes?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

My only real nitpick is that spren are the result of Honor having been splintered, just like the Seons from elantris

 

Spren were around before honor was splintered.

 

 

And, obviously, there are cultivationspren and we know that cultivation hasn't been splintered.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Govika]

My only discrepancy that I keep mentioning in my posts is how Sharplate glowed until the day of Recreance. I believe the glow is related to the fact that Radiants can Surgebind, such as in Dalinar's vision. I believe this glowing of the armor is influenced directly from something good, as opposed to something evil, such as Odium. The Radiants used Sharplate to protect, not monger war like the lighteyes. It may also be interesting to note that the Almighty tells Dalinar to "give the men the Shards they once bore" so that "the Knights Radiant [may] stand again." (edit and emphasis mine) This means that before the lighteyes came into power and seized all the blades (at least in Alethkar) the Shards belonged to every race. Also, I believe that the rise of Vorinism came from Shardblades and plate. Perhaps the early ardents used the lighteyes, who may have had the majority of Shards, "rulers" so they seemed in favor. (I haven't researched that.)

 

Another question I have for anyone is did the Heralds wear Shardplate? I know they mention Shardblades (or honorblades), but what about what armor they wore? DId they? When Kelek sees the Radiants in the Prelude, he talks about the plate. Why would he if he himself wore any? He wouldn't have looked over to the Radiants and mentioned it, it would have been mentioned when he saw Jezrien. Just a thought.

[skaa]

I found this interview yesterday while writing the theory:

 

QUESTION:
Is there an odiumspren?

BRANDON:
You will find out what there is.

 

That's the only instance I could find of someone asking him that question. Since he was very vague about it, I figured my theory was safe (at least for now). Maybe Phantom could find a slightly more definitive quote.

 

Anyway, allow me to speculate some more, alright?

 

Let's talk about the Oathpact. From WoK's prelude, we can see that the Honorblades were somehow connected to the Oathpact:

 

"Leave your sword," Jezrien said.

"What?"

Jezrien nodded to the ring of weapons. "I was chosen to wait for you...It is time for the Oathpact to end."

Kalak felt a stab of horror. "What will that do?"

"Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations."

...

Kalak shook his head. "He will not remain bound by this. The enemy. He will find a way around it. You know he will."

"Perhaps." The king of the Heralds offered no further explanation.

"And Taln?" Kalak asked. The flesh burning. The fires. The pain over and over and over...

"Better that one man should suffer than ten," Jezrien whispered.

...

Jezrien walked back to the ring of swords. His own Blade formed in his hands... "It has been decided, Kalak... Our Blades must be left. The Oathpact ends now." He lifted his sword and rammed it into the stone with the other seven.

 

But what is the Oathpact? It appears that both the Heralds and "the enemy" (i.e. Odium) were bound to something, the Heralds to the Oathpact (until they abandoned it), and Odium to... something else? Or is he bound to the Oathpact as well?

 

Centuries, perhaps millenia of torture. It was so hard to keep track. Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day.

 

After a few re-reads, I wondered how Tanavast could possibly order people to endure such a sacrifice. But I realized that the Heralds must have volunteered to do this on their own. They volunteered to be tortured for centuries in between Desolations in exchange for... what? What possible good could come from such a dreadful thing, when the Desolations still arrive anyway?

 

Here is the next part of my theory.

 

I believe that before the time of the Heralds, the particular trait of Honorblades of staying with their owners even after death wasn't a unique one. In fact, I believe it was the default trait of all Shardblades at the time. Why? Well, let me describe what I think happened. Note that the following paragraphs will be pure speculation, so read them with the knowledge that I'm deliberately leaving known territory and exploring certain possibilities based on the theory that Shardblades are Odiumspren.

 

***start of wild, base-less speculation***

 

Before the time of the Heralds, all the Shardblades were owned by the leaders of the Voidbringers, who used it to power Voidbinding, a power accessible only to their race. Their god (Odium) gave them the power to be the perfect servants of his Shardic Intent. Aside from their Voidbinding Form, their various other Forms helped them become highly efficient when fighting wars, which was basically the only thing they ever did. Yes, what I'm saying is that Jasnah was correct and that the Parshendi were the Voidbringers of old. As I said, all their leaders were bound to Odiumspren, and their Voidbinding power could resonate across the Parshendi army using their telepathic connection to each other. Using this power, they wrecked havoc across Roshar in what became the first Desolation.

 

Aside from Voidbinding, Odium also blessed them with a form of immortality, an evil counterpart to Endowment's Returning, so that Voidbringer leaders who die in battle would eventually resurrect. Imagine if Endowment became evil and started attacking other Shardworlds. Imagine fighting enemies who never permanently died, but Returned after a few days, just as powerful as they were before. It would be a nightmare.

 

But Odium is not Endowment, and holding the power of Odium comes at a price, because he was incapable of loving even his own followers. Whenever a Parshendi leader died, the Odiumspren bound to him would force him to stay in a certain part of Shadesmar that was under Odium's control. There, the Parshendi would be subjected to the hatred of his god, tortured by the Odiumspren until it was decided that he was once again needed in the war effort, at which point he would be resurrected.

 

The torture was probably brief, maybe a few days at most. It served as a sort of punishment for Voidbringers who failed their god, and as a way for Odium to show his Shardic Intent further. But Odium was at war and couldn't afford to prolong the punishment of his army's leaders, even if he wanted to.

 

At first, the Parshendi leaders endured the torture, believing it to be the highest form of worship they could offer their god. But it was just a matter of time until some of them decided that their god wasn't worth it. One day, a group of defectors used a Parshendi Form that prevented telepathic contact, then secretly surrendered to the human Surgebinders. They divulged all the secrets of the Voidbringer army that they knew, including the best ways to counter Voidbinding. When they were asked why they defected, they told the humans about the true nature of the Voidbringer swords, the torturous afterlife awaiting them and every Parshendi leader, and how they wished someone could just defeat their wretched god for them.

 

It was at this point that someone (King Jezrien?) started to form a plan to win the war. This plan required that he sacrifice himself to save not just humans, but even the Parshendi. The defectors had shown mankind that Voidbringers were people as well... a whole race of people in need of saving from the very god they serve. After hearing of his plan, some of his friends volunteered to accompany him in this sacrifice. In the end the Parshendi defectors handed the ownership of ten Shardblades to ten human Surgebinders.

 

Tanavast himself said that all the Shards were bound to some rules, no matter how powerful the Shards were. The new human Shardbearers somehow exploited one of these rules that allowed them to bargain with Odium (perhaps with the help of Honor... I'm thinking the Dawnshards might have something to do with this). The bargain was this:

 

Odium shall release all the Parshendi leaders from their cycle of punishment and resurrection, and forfeit the war. In return, the ten human Shardbearers shall offer themselves up for eternal punishment.

 

For whatever reason, Odium took the bait. Perhaps he never really considered the idea that such weak creatures could outsmart him, so he decided to play their game. He gave a demand of his own:

 

The resurrection of Parshandi shall cease, and the offer of the ten shall be accepted, but the war shall end only if all the Parshendi give up their Odiumspren.

 

To which the ten replied with another demand:

 

The ten of them shall be allowed to fight while the Parshendi had Odiumspren.

 

This was the Oathpact between Odium and the servants of Honor. Notice how similar this situation is to the tenets of Stone Shamanism: warriors bound by oath, Human Shardbearers destined to eternal punishment. After agreeing to it, Odium ordered his spren to free their hosts upon dying, excepting only the ten humans of the Oathpact.

 

Perhaps the news was announced to the rest of the Parshendi, or perhaps they just discovered that Shardblades no longer disappeared when their owners died, and that their leaders no longer resurrected. but soon they all learned of what had happened. Then one day, each and every Voidbringer leader gathered together, summoned their Shardblades, and slammed them in the ground, abandoning the Odiumspren that had been the source of their power as well as their woes. They declared defeat and retreated from the war. Thus, the first Desolation ended.

 

Odium did not anticipate this. He fully thought that the loss of immortality would make the Parshendi even more determined to win. He never realized that the Parshendi hated him more than they hated the humans, and that given the choice, they would rather give up their power than serve him.

 

This did not deter Odium, though. Honor's creatures might have tricked him one time, but he started forming his own plan...

 

Meanwhile, the humans retrieved the abandoned Shardblades and decided that they can no longer allow the Parshendi to have them ever again. And so they formed the Knights Radiant, an army of honorable Surgebinders who would keep the Shardblades from falling into the hands of the now defeated Parshendi. They created Shardplate to match their Shardblades, and through their Surgebinding abilities, they became the glowing Stormlight-filled knights in armor of legend. After the Knights were formed, the ten saviors of mankind, honoring the Oathpact, traveled to Odium's lair to be tortured for all eternity... or so they thought.

 

The Parshendi's descendants eventually forgot their Voidbringer heritage, but peace on Roshar did not last. After several hundred years, perhaps due to the Knights Radiant becoming careless or corrupt, wars broke out once more. One thing lead to another and a Shardblade got its way into Parshendi territory. Once again, an Odiumspren had bound itself to the ancient race of Voidbringers, and these Parshendi descendants will eventually rediscover the lost Art of their god.

 

Predictably, this event triggered the Oathpact, so Odium was forced to let the ten humans of the Oathpact fight against the new Voidbringers. Released from centuries of torture, it probably took them a while to stop celebrating and think about the implications of what had happened. Looking at their Shardblades, the symbols of their greatest honorable sacrifice, their Honorblades, they realized why they were brought back: Voidbinding was about to return to the world.

 

They had to warn mankind, save it once more. Another Desolation approaches... and they were the Heralds of its coming.

 

*** end of wild, base-less speculation ***

 

Once again, I'll let you guys poke holes in this. If it survives, I'll post the final part of my theory.

 

Edit: Govika raised an interesting topic. I think the "Shards" Tanavast pertained to were the Dawnshards. I don't have a theory yet about what those are exactly, but I suspect they aren't Shardblades. After all, Dawnshards were supposed to be able to "bind any creature, voidish or mortal," which wouldn't make sense if they were swords. Perhaps they were the more Physical (i.e. tangible) form of Honorspren, just like how I think Shardblades are the Physical form of Odiumspren.

Edited June 10, 2013 by skaa

[Galavantes]

Spren were around before honor was splintered.

 

 

And, obviously, there are cultivationspren and we know that cultivation hasn't been splintered.

How do we know this? We don't actually know when Honor was splintered.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

How do we know this? We don't actually know when Honor was splintered.

According to Soru on the Something Awful Forums

I went to a Sanderson book signing today and whether spren existed before (Way of Kings ending spoiler) Odium killed the Almighty and shattered the Honor shard. His answer was that some of the spren existed, but some were different, and new ones existed after it.

I honestly have no idea if this is already well known or not as far as Cosmere-ology goes but it was fun, and he was basically the nicest guy ever.

[skaa]

Alright! On to the last part. I'm sorry about the length of my previous post. I'll try to keep this one short.

So I've speculated on the true nature of Shardblades, and how this true nature is tied with the history of the Voidbringers, the Desolations, the Heralds, and the creation of the Knights Radiant. I believe that the Knights' true purpose, aside from helping the Heralds fight Voidbringers during Desolations, was to keep the Shardblades away from the descendants of Voidbringers to try and prevent another Desolation. Because of this, they were seen by society as the protectors of mankind, and was therefore treated as leaders even long after society had forgotten the true nature of Shardblades.

Then the Day of Recreance arrived, and almost all of the Shardblades were left in the hands of ordinary non-Surgebinders, who then became permanent Lighteyes. These new Lighteyes thought they had the right to reign over the Darkeyes because of their dazzling eye color and their powerful weapons. Of course, those reasons were dumb. But there is a good reason for them to rule, although they are unaware of it: Without the Knights Radiant, the fate of mankind now rests on the shoulders of these warring, arrogant Lighteyes, because they've inherited the responsibility, the mission, of keeping Odiumspren from the descendants of the Voidbringers.

And they've failed. Because of the Alethi's foolish Vengeance Pact, Parshendi Shardbearers exist once more. The Voidbringers are about to return. Now, with Honor dead and Odium ruling, the True Desolation comes.

In Dalinar's vision of that Day of Recreance, we see that the Knights themselves were permanent Lighteyes, unlike the Heralds. I believe the permanent Lighteye phenomenon has something to do with the Shardplate they wore. Why? Well, allow me to present another bout of wild, base-less speculation:

***start of wild, base-less speculation***

I think that when the Heralds formed the Knights Radiant, they knew the dangers of giving humans Odiumspren. They had to ensure that the most powerful humans in the world, the Surgebinders, would all be trained in the ways of honor, so that when they gain a Shardblade, they would be less likely to draw power from the Odiumspren (via odious thoughts and emotions). This was why the Knights Radiant recruited all the Surgebinders from all the human kingdoms in Roshar to join one of the ten Orders.

Surgebinding potential was genetic, so they had to track down the offspring of the Knights Radiant, even secret ones born out of wedlock, in order to recruit them as well. How did the Heralds ensure that Knights' offspring would be easily found? Simple. Among the many enchantments they placed in the Knights' Shardplate, they included a spell that changed its wearer's DNA so that he, as well as his offspring, would permanently mimic a prominent physical effect of holding a Shardblade: Lighteyes.

This permanent Lighteyes effect can be diluted when a Lighteyes reproduces with a Darkeyes, so the Knights had to quickly find Lighteyes and recruit them to ensure that the Lighteyes effect would always be strong across generations. Otherwise, there was a danger of the effect disappearing after several generations, which might lead to a Surgebinder the Knights didn't know about.

This system broke down after the Day of Recreance, when non-Surgebinders took the plates. So now, you wouldn't be able to tell a potential Surgebinder from the rest of the population just by looking at their eyes, which is why we have Darkeyed Surgebinders like Kaladin and Szeth.

*** end of wild base-less speculation ***

I admit that I haven't really explained the difference between Truthlessblades and Radiantblades. I'm sure they are different in some way, but I guess someone else will have to theorize on that. I wouldn't be surprised if there are other kinds of Shardblade we've yet to see.

 

I also haven't explained why the Heralds' eyes don't light up even when they're holding their Honorblades (like in the final chapter of WoK). Are there existing theories that explain this?

Anyway, what do you guys think of the general ideas I presented here? Never mind the tiny details I've put for rhetorical effect (e.g. all the melodramatic stuff ). I'd like to hear your thoughts about the following:

• Shardblades as Odiumspren
• Parshendi use of Shardblades for Voidbinding
• Odium's sick treatment of his own followers
• The Heralds' sacrifice to save both Parshendi and mankind
• Knights Radiant keeping Shardblades from their former owners
• The mechanics of the Oathpact
• The genetic Lighteyes effect originally being used as a marker for potential Surgebinders pre-Recreance
• How Szeth isn't a permanent Lighteyes because he doesn't have Shardplate

Edited June 9, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

And it doesn't even have to be in sword form. Looking back at the assassination of King Hanavanar, Szeth was even more deadly when he started irrationally blaming the king for his own actions, even though he let go of his Shardblade mid-fight. I think the Odiumspren bound to him was still powering his hatred even in its non-collapsed form.

This theory has just one problem... Szeth isn't bound to a spren.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=949

Viper

This will probably be RAFO'd, but: Is Szeth bound to a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No. He's not. Haha, I didn't RAFO that.

 

And he's kinda bound to a shardblade, so I don't think it's likely that shardblades are spren either.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Shardbearer]

I'm sorry, but this theory makes no sense whatsoever.

[skaa]

This theory has just one problem... Szeth isn't bound to a spren.

 

 

And he's kinda bound to a shardblade, so I don't think it's likely that shardblades are spren either.

 

Aw, I wish I'd seen that earlier, Phantom.

 

Well, I suppose you could say that being bound to the Physical aspect (i.e. the Shardblade) doesn't automatically bind the person to the spren in the same way that Syl bound to Kaladin and that the theoretical Odiumspren bound to ancient Voidbringers.

 

But... yeah. I was kinda hoping that the Odiumspren was powering Szeth's Surgebinding somehow. I guess that isn't possible now.

 

Edit: hoser said something in Kiwi's thread that, if true, might salvage the Shardblades are spren theory:

 

It seems that Shardblades are bound to people, but not vice versa.

 

Perhaps we need to re-word Viper's question for Brandon: Is a spren bound to Szeth?

Edited June 9, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I don't think Brandon would use the term 'bind' nontransitively.

[skaa]

I don't think Brandon would use the term 'bind' nontransitively.

If I am devoted to someone, I could say that I'm bound to her. Yet... she might not feel bound to me. She might not even like me at all, much less feel devoted to me. She could leave me for someone else if she wanted to, leave me heartbroken and all alone...

*sob*

Wait, what are we talking about again?

 

I'm sorry, but this theory makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, thanks for giving me your honest opinion. But for something that doesn't make sense, it conveniently explains quite a few things:

• Why the Heralds had to go through prolonged periods of torture
• Why the Heralds return to the Physical Realm when Desolations are about to arrive
• Why the Honorblades disappear when their owners die
• Why the Voidbringers' descendants can't perform Voidbinding (yet)
• Syl's hatred for Shardblades
• The "good reason" for letting Lighteyes rule
• How Shardblades can bind to owners like spren do
• How Szeth can Surgebind even without an Honorspren

Now, I'm pretty sure some details and certain wordings I used (especially the actual details of the Oathpact) will be shown to be wrong. I'm alright with that. I can't read Brandon's mind, after all. But despite your devastating critique, shardbearer, I think I'm going to stick to this theory for a little while longer.

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[Shardbearer]

Ok, sorry that was a bit rash. I was on my ipad and didn't want to dig into it too much. Everything sounds ok up to this point:

One apparently difference between Shardblades and Honorspren is that Honorspren are sentient and humanoid while Shardblades are not. I'm speculating that the sentient (probably humanoid) part of Odiumspren only manifests in Shadesmar, and that it is this aspect of the Odiumspren that feeds on the odious thoughts of people.

 

I believe we'll be seeing the "true" form of Odiumspren once the characters start travelling around Shadesmar in future books. Also, you know how the Heralds were tortured in between Desolations? I think I know who the torturers were: the true forms of their own Honorblades.

This bit sounds to me like you are trying to finagle your theory into working. No other spren acts like this. All the spren we have seen manifest in the physical realm, but without a significant physical form. Only Syl and the cryptics have actually demonstrated the ability to affect physical objects at all. To say that odiumspren act in such a completely different way is just odd to me. Also, I don't see how counting 10 heartbeats = measuring spren.

[skaa]

Ok, sorry that was a bit rash. I was on my ipad and didn't want to dig into it too much.

It's okay. I was going to ignore your first comment completely, but then I figured I could just incorporate my response into a summary of things that the theory could explain.

Of course, just because a theory explains many things doesn't mean it's necessarily correct. I'm aware that my speculations here were a bit wild. I mean, you can see that I repeatedly acknowledged that fact in my posts. I waited a whole day in between typing each part of my theory to give people time to show me where I was completely and utterly wrong. Every day I was anticipating someone to point some WoB or some passage in WoK that contradicted one of my main assertions, so that I wouldn't have to think of what to type next. In fact, if Phantom posted that "Szeth isn't bound to a spren" right after my first post, I doubt if I would have continued with the rest of it.

 

This bit sounds to me like you are trying to finagle your theory into working. No other spren acts like this. All the spren we have seen manifest in the physical realm, but without a significant physical form. Only Syl and the cryptics have actually demonstrated the ability to affect physical objects at all. To say that odiumspren act in such a completely different way is just odd to me.

Okay, so Shardblades being spren is odd. I agree. But wouldn't you say that a hypothetical Odiumspren would have to be on at least the same level of power and "oddness" as Cryptics (who, by the way, are invisible in the Physical Realm) and Honorspren?

Here are things that we know spren can do:

• Appear out of nowhere (most spren)
• Act weirdly when interacting with flesh (From Chapter 7: "...if she moved her arm through one, its figure would smear like scattered sand, then reform.")
• Affect the Physical Realm (Honorspren... possibly Cryptics... Edit: or really, any spren that could be put in a fabrial)
• Have forms visible only in Shadesmar (Cryptics)
• Have forms that mimic man-made objects (creationspren)
• Exhibit a sort of "wavefunction collapse" when numbers are assigned to them (flamespren)
• Have its "wavefunction collapse" linked to the measurement of time (Cusicesh the Protector)

Note that all those things apply for my theoretical Odiumspren (i.e. Shardblades). So if you think about it, the theory that Shardblades are spren only seems odd when you've gotten used to seeing spren as just whispy, harmless little floating critters. But the fact is that spren can be so much more complex than that.

 

Also, I don't see how counting 10 heartbeats = measuring spren.

You're measuring the time it takes for it to appear. I know it's a weird thing to measure about a spren, but I think it's valid. After all, there's Cusicesh the Protector, who also appears at a predictable time. Measuring the time for the Odiumspren's wavefunction to collapse would collapse the wavefunction of the Odiumspren in the time measured. (Whoa, that's almost like a ketek right there! )

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[hoser]

In this interview Brandon says: 

But the spren you are running into are all (something) ofeither Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able ot be (something).

Does that affect this theory?  Brandon doesn't say there aren't any Odiumspren, but we've run into Shardblades and so they can't be Odiumspren. 

 

Edited: Question marks follow questions

Edited June 12, 2013 by hoser

[skaa]

Does that affect this theory? Brandon doesn't say there aren't any Odiumspren, but we've run into Shardblades and so they can't be Odiumspren.

I think both that and the quote Phantom gave are good counter-evidence to my theory, though I wouldn't call them conclusive just yet.

I certainly wouldn't have wasted time typing the second and third parts of the theory if I'd seen both quotes first.

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[hoser]

I think both that and the quote Phantom gave are good counter-evidence to my theory, though I wouldn't call them conclusive yet.

 

I certainly wouldn't have wasted time typing the second and third parts of the theory if I'd seen both quotes first.

Sorry!  The theory seemed strange and the explanation challenging, so I just let it go, figuring someone smarter than me would find a problem with it.  When it wouldn't die, I took a look and started thinking about it.  It would have saved you some effort if I'd thought about it sooner. 

[skaa]

Sorry! The theory seemed strange and the explanation challenging, so I just let it go, figuring someone smarter than me would find a problem with it. When it wouldn't die, I took a look and started thinking about it. It would have saved you some effort if I'd thought about it sooner.

Nah, it's alright. After all, it's still not a closed case until Brandon says outright that Odiumspren don't exist. I'm willing to bet that Sanderson just didn't want to reveal the existence of Odiumspren yet so he didn't mention them in that interview. The fact that Honor and Cultivation arrived in Roshar first would mean that virtually all the spren came from them. That would be the general rule, but there could be an exception.

I became so much more attached to my theory after that post above where I showed shardbearer that the behavior of Shardblades isn't too different from what other spren already do. I actually just came up with that argument on the spot, so it was quite a pleasant surprise for me, and made me like my theory even more.

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[Azul]

• Affect the Physical Realm (Honorspren and Cryptics)

 

I get the honorspren part (with the leaf) but I can't think of when we have seen Cryptics affect the physical realm.  The closest thing I can think of is when Shallan reaches out and feels something but that shows us more about Shallan that what the Cryptics are capable of doing.

[skaa]

I get the honorspren part (with the leaf) but I can't think of when we have seen Cryptics affect the physical realm.  The closest thing I can think of is when Shallan reaches out and feels something but that shows us more about Shallan that what the Cryptics are capable of doing.

 

Oh, sorry, I was just assuming that cryptics could affect the Physical realms even when invisible since they are responsible for Soulcasting ability. Or are they? Hmmm... alright, I'll edit that part. Thanks, Azul!

[blackmagic3]

I think there is a quote about larger spren like wind spren could stick things together, imitate voices and do mischief. All fabrials operate through trapped spren and majority of fabrials affect the physical world. The corrupted spren/odiumspren turns into a thunderclast.

Edit:spelling

Edited June 12, 2013 by blackmagic3

[skaa]

I think there is a quote about larger spren like wind spren could stick things together, imitate voices and do mischief. All fabrials operate through trapped spren and majority of fabrials affect the physical world. The corrupted spren/odiumspren turns into a thunderclast.

 

Oh my! How could I forget about fabrials! >_<

 

Edited that post again. Thanks, blackmagic3!

 

Another connection is that creationspren can appear to look like man-made objects just as Shardblades appear as swords, so I've added that there as well.

 

Edit: I edited the thread-starter post to link to my various speculations and arguments, as well as to the notable counter-evidence presented.

 

Also, I just remembered about Cusicesh the Protector, who appears at exactly the same time everyday. This means that a spren's appearance can be linked to the measurement of time, just like Shardblades. Added that as well.

 

You know what? I now realize that if ever Brandon says that Shardblades are not even spren at all, I'd be bummed out for several days. I think I'm starting to get too attached to this theory.

Edited June 12, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Also, Brandon's mentioned that in the first draft of the 'Szeth running in and killing everyone' scene, he had a normal sword. It turned out to be too gory an introduction, so he gave Szeth a shardblade.

[Leuthie]

Anyone notice that Syl is holding a "radiant" sword while driving off the deathspren from Kaladin while he's fighting for life after the Highstorms?