Theory: Shardblades are Odiumspren

[Govika]

Anyone notice that Syl is holding a "radiant" sword while driving off the deathspren from Kaladin while he's fighting for life after the Highstorms?

That would mean that Syl has an "Honorblade" of sorts. She only uses it to defend, which is what they were meant to do. But when people use shards for offensive killing, the honor (perhaps the glow at the Day of Recreance?) fades or becomes too terrible for Syl, someone of Honor, to handle. So basically unless it's an honorblade or held for honor's sake, it is terrible.

[skaa]

Anyone notice that Syl is holding a "radiant" sword while driving off the deathspren from Kaladin while he's fighting for life after the Highstorms?

Either Syl has an actual miniaturized Shardblade, or it's just her shapeshifting powers at work. That was a cool scene, by the way.

The Knights Radiant were able to use Shardblades for good, just as Elend was able to defeat Ati's army with atium. I don't see how that undermines my theory.

[Shardlet]

Also, I just remembered about Cusicesh the Protector, who appears at exactly the same time everyday. This means that a spren's appearance can be linked to the measurement of time, just like Shardblades. Added that as well.

 

I wonder if someone saw Cusicesh coming up more than once and wondered if there was some regularity to its appearance and measured it once and recorded it and therefore Cusicesh was locked into appearing at the same time everyday because of the act of measuring and recording its appearance.

[skaa]

I wonder if someone saw Cusicesh coming up more than once and wondered if there was some regularity to its appearance and measured it once and recorded it and therefore Cusicesh was locked into appearing at the same time everyday because of the act of measuring and recording its appearance.

 

Could be.

 

I'd like to thank Leuthie for mentioning Syl's "radiant" form. It inspired another theory regarding honorspren, which I will now proceed to describe in a separate thread.

 

By the way, to the detractors of the "Shardblades are Odiumspren" theory, would you settle for "Shardblades are spren"? Or perhaps even "Shardblades are made of sprenstuff"? I think I've already gathered enough evidence to at least link Shardblades and spren.

Edited June 14, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I don't think so.  Shardblades have a nice solid physical presence, there's one bonded to Szeth (who isn't bonded to a spren), they don't appear tied to any particular concept, and they don't exhibit any of the autonomy that spren do.

[Leuthie]

They don't have a nice physical presence. They pass through everything that isn't their bonded holder. Much like...spren. The fact that they leave the things they pass through changed (rocks sliced, living things "detached" from limbs, etc) can and has been explained through non-Physical Realmic means. Their Physical presence is...incomplete. Like bonded spren.

[skaa]

Shardblades have a nice solid physical presence...

 

I'll have to strongly disagree. Most of them vanish when let go. They slice almost anything as if the physical properties of objects don't matter, but they can't even slice living flesh properly. That's not a "nice solid physical presence". That's a freakish imitation of a semblance of being solid.

 

Imagine a ghost who has the power to magically affect the physical world. He attempts to act like a normal living person, "moving" things with his hands, "walking" on the floor, but he just can't seem to do anything right. He casually "lifts" boulders the same way he "lifts" rocks, as if he doesn't know the concept of weight. His footsteps produce no sound. And occasionally you catch him walking through walls.

 

That's what Shardblades are like. I'm sure Syl (who can affect the Physical realm as well) could also pretend to be a physical entity if she wanted to, but she wouldn't be very good at it, either.

 

 

...they don't appear tied to any particular concept...

 

I would say they're tied to division, but I have a feeling you wouldn't accept that. At any rate, there are entities that are called spren but have conceptual ties that we don't yet know about (e.g. Cusicesh, the "smokespren" found in chasmfiends), so it's not too big a deal, really.

 

Anyway, I showed seven similarities between Shardblades and spren, but apparently that's not good enough. Would  "Shardblades are just made of sprenstuff" at least be more appealing to you?

Edited June 14, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Nah, if you will to put a shardblade down, or if a guy who has one dies, you can just lie it down on a table. 

[Shardlet]

If you'll recall, the shardblades have a gem in the pommel which flashes when a bond is formed between the blade and a new holder of the blade.  Think about what else has gems and a strong connection to spren, fabrials!  Now I would call shardblades Fabrials rather than fabrials because of their significant powers.  But really most fabrials we have seen have some pretty amazing abilities.  I think that shardblades are splinters of Honor, maybe cultivation (though this seems against her intent, but when faced with an enemy like Odium perhaps some allowances must be made), and possibly Odium (in the case of Szeth's blade).  And I think that the splinter is contained within the pommel gem of the blade giving the swords their magnificent power. 

 

This would bridge the gap between the definite physical presence espoused by PM and also account for some of the blades sprennish qualities.  Now before you say, 'Hah!, fabrials don't disappear when they are released, etc. etc.', consider this.   Mere fabrials were created by Rosharians while, I believe, that Shardblades (Honor?) and Shardplate (Cultivation?) were created by Shards.  There is a significant skill/power level difference there. 

[Leuthie]

While Odium might have over-Invested himself to get rid of Honor and Cultivation, I seriously doubt there are any Splinters of him hanging about. One requirement to speculate on Splinters that I stick to: Is it sentient? If it's not sentient, it's not a Splinter.

Completely forgot about the gem. That does tie it to the Physical. It also makes Shardblades a bit too much like Lightsabers.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

One requirement to speculate on Splinters that I stick to: Is it sentient? If it's not sentient, it's not a Splinter.

 

I'm pretty sure Divine Breaths aren't sentient.

 

Also, most of the splinters on Sel are mindless apparently.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/1a3fj0/discussion_of_the_week_shadesmar_truthspren/c8tw3b7?context=3

 

It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why?

[–]mistborn

It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel.

[–]Phantine

Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though.

[–]mistborn

Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless...

Edited June 14, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Leuthie]

Sorry. Phrased the answer wrong. If it isn't sentient, it doesn't have a Splinter.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Leuthie

[hoser]

Sorry. Phrased the answer wrong. If it isn't sentient, it does have a Splinter.

Do you maybe mean:

If it isn't sentient, it does not have a Splinter.

[Leuthie]

Yeah.

[Shardlet]

As I understand it, the overwhelming majority of spren on Roshar are parts (or former parts) of Honor (i.e., splinters).  While some spren are clearly sentient, I don't see any indication that all spren (like fear, anticipation, growth, fire, etc. spren) are sentient.  I don't think sentience is a requirement for a splinter. 

 

Now, as far as hunting down splinters in the books, looking for sentience is a great way to find the low hanging fruit (so to speak, not saying 'well, duh!' or anything like that).  It is a good rule of thumb for initial inquiry and identification.

[hoser]

As I understand it, the overwhelming majority of spren on Roshar are parts (or former parts) of Honor (i.e., splinters).  While some spren are clearly sentient, I don't see any indication that all spren (like fear, anticipation, growth, fire, etc. spren) are sentient.  I don't think sentience is a requirement for a splinter. 

 

Now, as far as hunting down splinters in the books, looking for sentience is a great way to find the low hanging fruit (so to speak, not saying 'well, duh!' or anything like that).  It is a good rule of thumb for initial inquiry and identification.

Something can have a Shardic investment without being a splinter.  Being a splinter is significant.  There are way too many spren for them all to be splinters.  I can imagine Syl as having a splinter (not saying that she does) but not every flamespren, windspren, painspren or creationspren.

Although we have WoB that the spren we have run into in tWoK are of Honor, Cultivation or both, that does not make them all splinters.

In other books: 

Consider the known splinter containing entities:

Returned are scarce enough that someone voluntarily becomes a drab every week to keep each one alive

Seons and Skaze are also rare

Edited June 14, 2013 by hoser

[Shardlet]

I suppose it would depend upon how big of a piece of the Shard the splinter is. 

Returned are people who endowment has restored to life in bodies that can be self-manipulated and are not their original body.  This seems to me to be a substantially grand splintering and therefore there are only a few of them (relatively speaking).  Seons (and presumably Skaze) are very sentient and have some extraordinary abilities (big splinters and therefore less of them). 

Indeed some spren are as well.  Although it appears that Syl's sentience is derived at least in part from her bond with Kaladin (and formerly others like Kaladin).  Most spren seen to be manifestations (of energy?) that are attracted to a specific aspect (small splinters and therefore more of them). 

 

It will be interesting to learn more about the spren in WoR.  If I am not mistaken, Brandon has said we will get a significant amount of info on spren (from Navani and Axies? and maybe Taln) as well as some serious meat on Shardblades.

 

Edit: added spolier info.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Shardlet

[Shardbearer]

Here are things that we know spren can do:

• Appear out of nowhere (most spren)
• Act weirdly when interacting with flesh (From Chapter 7: "...if she moved her arm through one, its figure would smear like scattered sand, then reform.")
• Affect the Physical Realm (Honorspren... possibly Cryptics... Edit: or really, any spren that could be put in a fabrial)
• Have forms visible only in Shadesmar (Cryptics)
• Have forms that mimic man-made objects (creationspren)
• Exhibit a sort of "wavefunction collapse" when numbers are assigned to them (flamespren)
• Have its "wavefunction collapse" linked to the measurement of time (Cusicesh the Protector)

 

Did I miss something? How do cryptics have a form that's only visible in Shadesmar? I don't recall anything like this.

 

Also, spren mimicking objects is a far cry from spren becoming a physical object.

 

Another point is that although spren can appear out of nowhere, they aren't covered in condensation when they appear.

 

No, I think that shardblades are very different from spren. The few similarities are either coincidental or have something to do with Realmatics.

[Senor Feesh]

I would say this: just because the only Splinters we've 100% confirmation on were attached to a sentient something, doesn't make it a requirement. We have no reason to believe that there couldn't be a Splinter with no cognitive force behind them - in Mistborn 

even Preservation managed to exist in a largely mindless state, so I see no reason why a mind should be required of a Splinter.

[Leuthie]

Preservation as a whole was always sentient. Till the very end. He didn't always have control and was often completely impotent. However, he was aware.

But you're right, we don't have enough examples or WoB to come to any conclusions about Splinters.

[Shardlet]

You know, this line of thought brings up some interesting things to me about the nature of the Shards (not the holders).  A splinter is a piece of a Shard.  Splinters may be formed voluntarily or involuntarily.  We have been discussing the sentience of splinters, even going so far as to suggest that sentience may be an essential characteristic of a splinter.  This suggests, at least in a backhanded way, that the Shard independent of its holder has a sentience of its own.  And, by extension, that Adonalsium is sentient as well independent of any pre-existing sentience directing it.  Interesting to think about.

[Leuthie]

It could also mean that Shard/Splinter/Adonalsium are just bundles of useless energy/stuff without a sentient entity to guide it.

[hoser]

You know, this line of thought brings up some interesting things to me about the nature of the Shards (not the holders).  A splinter is a piece of a Shard.  Splinters may be formed voluntarily or involuntarily.  We have been discussing the sentience of splinters, even going so far as to suggest that sentience may be an essential characteristic of a splinter.  This suggests, at least in a backhanded way, that the Shard independent of its holder has a sentience of its own.  And, by extension, that Adonalsium is sentient as well independent of any pre-existing sentience directing it.  Interesting to think about.

Splinters are not sentient.  Leuthie's key point was that from what we've seen, splinters are associated with sentient beings. 

 

From other books:

The Aons in Seons are splinters and are notsentient. Seons are not splinters.

The Returned life is a splinter and is not sentient. Returned are not splinters.

 

Shards seem to have minimal inherent sentience (if any).  On a purely speculative note, I agree that Adonalsium was likely sentient, mostly because of Hoid's little speech to Dalinar. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Splinters are a mix of cognitive and spiritual with very little physical.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

There's a difference between 'being a part of a shard' and 'being a splinter'.  There's a threshold below which you aren't a splinter - lerasium mistborn for instance have a chunk of Preservation, but aren't splinters - but they're closer to being one than, say, a misting.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity