Theory: Shardblades are Odiumspren

[skaa]

Did I miss something? How do cryptics have a form that's only visible in Shadesmar? I don't recall anything like this.

 

The cryptics live in the Cognitive realm. That's why they can't be seen in the Physical realm. They were the ones who gave Shallan access to Shadesmar, remember?

 

Also, spren mimicking objects is a far cry from spren becoming a physical object.

 

See my previous response to the claim that Shardblades are Physical objects.

 

 

Another point is that although spren can appear out of nowhere, they aren't covered in condensation when they appear.

 

Right. The spren we've seen have so far been lacking in the wet appearance department. Hence Shardblades are not spren. You got me there, shardbearer.

 

If you'll recall, the shardblades have a gem in the pommel which flashes when a bond is formed between the blade and a new holder of the blade.

 

Excellent counter evidence! If Shardblades are fabrials, then I agree that they can't be spren. But the fabrials section of the Ars Arcanum never mentioned them. Anyway, I'll include this in the counter evidence list, but I'll still wait to read Words of Radiance first before deciding whether or not to abandon this theory.

[Shardlet]

 

The cryptics live in the Cognitive realm. That's why they can't be seen in the Physical realm. They were the ones who gave Shallan access to Shadesmar, remember?

 

Excellent counter evidence! If Shardblades are fabrials, then I agree that they can't be spren. But the fabrials section of the Ars Arcanum never mentioned them. Anyway, I'll include this in the counter evidence list, but I'll still wait to read Words of Radiance first before deciding whether or not to abandon this theory.

 

Unless Elhokar has been to Shadesmar, the Cryptics can be seen in the physical realm .  They also appear to be able to be in the physical realm since they are seen in Shallan's 'scenes', they follow her, and she can apparently physically feel them.

 

A reasonable explanation as to why the Shardblades are not included in the AA under fabrials is because nobody would ever think of Shardblades as fabrials because 'everyone knows that fabrials are man-made (woman-made actually I suppose)' <to be read in a manner which suggests that this would be the prevailing manner of thinking rather than a direct quote or anything of the like>.

[Leuthie]

Cryptics can't be "seen" in the Physical. Shallan doesnt see them. She draws them. All spren "live in the Cognitive". Seeing is a Cognitive activity. So is the way Shallan draws. Spren don't exist is the Physical without help. They are simply perceived. Any interaction is through bonds.

So if a spren is bonded to a gem which allows bonds to an owner...you have a Shardblade that is a spren

[Shardbearer]

 

The cryptics live in the Cognitive realm. That's why they can't be seen in the Physical realm. They were the ones who gave Shallan access to Shadesmar, remember?

 

That doesn't answer my question. You said cryptics have a different form in the cognitive realm than the physical realm. I don't recall seeing any cryptics at all when Shallan visited shadesmar.

 

See my previous response to the claim that Shardblades are Physical objects.

 

 I already saw that response. It doesn't work for me. Yes, shard blades have some strange properties when passing through things and so do Spren. To me these strange properties don't seem to be related.

 

Right. The spren we've seen have so far been lacking in the wet appearance department. Hence Shardblades are not spren. You got me there, shardbearer.

 

This point wasn't meant to be conclusive on its own, just something I thought was worth mentioning.

 

[Senor Feesh]

 That doesn't answer my question. You said cryptics have a different form in the cognitive realm than the physical realm. I don't recall seeing any cryptics at all when Shallan visited shadesmar.

 

I don't think there were any, however there is that one death quote... lemme dig it up...

 

Ah, here we are.

 

I’m dying, aren’t I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.

 

That's from Ch. 4. Seems that Cryptics and Shadesmar are likely linked in some fashion, even if it's only down to the ability to see both. Interestingly, as with Shallan's drawings, the Cryptic seems to be in the room with them, otherwise imperceptible.

 

I will not pretend to understand what any of this means.

[Shardbearer]

I find this particular death quote fascinating. The person seems to be glimpsing shadesmar and the cryptic while remaining aware of his or her surroundings in the physical realm. So far when Shallan has entered shadesmar she was almost completely cut off from the physical realm.

[Leuthie]

It does make sense that the dying would leave the Physical first, allowing them to see the Cognitive. Especially on Roshar, where the barrier between Physical and Cognitive seems to be very thin and have lots of holes.

[hoser]

Or it could be that the presence of the Cryptic is what allows the dying person to see Shadesmar.  Not saying, just suggesting. 

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Or it could be that he sees a cryptic and then starts channeling someone else.

[Meg]

Cryptics can't be "seen" in the Physical. Shallan doesnt see them. She draws them. All spren "live in the Cognitive". Seeing is a Cognitive activity. So is the way Shallan draws. Spren don't exist is the Physical without help. They are simply perceived. Any interaction is through bonds.

So if a spren is bonded to a gem which allows bonds to an owner...you have a Shardblade that is a spren

 

 

Yet, we don't know for sure that cryptics can't be seen in the Physical Realm. Yet, we only know that at the moment there are no people who consciously can see them.

 

But they can be felt:

 

The room was empty, yet depicted right in front of her was an image of it crowded full of sleek figures. They were close enough that she should be able to feel them breathing, if they breathed.

Was there a chill in the room? Hesitantly—terrified but unable to stop herself—Shallan dropped her pencil and raised her freehand to the right.

And felt something.

TWoK Chapter 45 "Shadesmar"

 

 

As for your second paragraph: Even if a spren were trapped in that gem, this spren may allow a relationship between Shardblade and Bearer (I don't think so because Blades and Plates can be lent). My thought on this is that if they "work together officially" after taking up the relationship it allows the holder to let the Blade vanish and summon. Otherwise (I could think of that) for example those lent blades don't vanish when used not by the original owner. Or that relationship-flush happens every time the Blade changes its bearer and is not in any way really that significant as someone might think. 

 

 

But another question: What in Shadesmar may be the spren? The beads or the flames? 

 

 

 

Edit: Is there a discrepancy about Shadesmar in the Deathquote and Shallan's description? 

 

Deathquote: I can see a distant sun, dark and cold,

 

Shallan: small white sun that hung on the horizon, too far away.

 

Or does "small white sun" can be described as "sun, dark and cold" too? 

 

I apologizes for such questions, for English natives they might feel stupid, but sometimes I'm not sure with such little indifferences.  

Edited June 15, 2013 by Meg

[hoser]

Yet, we don't know for sure that cryptics can't be seen in the Physical Realm. Yet, we only know that at the moment there are no people who consciously can see them.

 

But they can be felt:

Or maybe she is feeling the goblet she ends up transforming.

As for your second paragraph: Even if a spren were trapped in that gem, this spren may allow a relationship between Shardblade and Bearer (I don't think so because Blades and Plates can be lent). My thought on this is that if they "work together officially" after taking up the relationship it allows the holder to let the Blade vanish and summon. Otherwise (I could think of that) for example those lent blades don't vanish when used not by the original owner. Or that relationship-flush happens every time the Blade changes its bearer and is not in any way really that significant as someone might think. 

 

 

But another question: What in Shadesmar may be the spren? The beads or the flames? 

 

 

 

Edit: Is there a discrepancy about Shadesmar in the Deathquote and Shallan's description? 

 

Deathquote: I can see a distant sun, dark and cold,

 

Shallan: small white sun that hung on the horizon, too far away.

 

Or does "small white sun" can be described as "sun, dark and cold" too? 

 

I apologizes for such questions, for English natives they might feel stupid, but sometimes I'm not sure with such little indifferences.  

That "sun, dark and cold" could mean "sun, white but not as bright or as warm as the normal sun", but not necessarily. 

[skaa]

Unless Elhokar has been to Shadesmar, the Cryptics can be seen in the physical realm .  They also appear to be able to be in the physical realm since they are seen in Shallan's 'scenes', they follow her, and she can apparently physically feel them.

 

Or it could be that the presence of the Cryptic is what allows the dying person to see Shadesmar.  Not saying, just suggesting. 

 

Or it could be that he sees a cryptic and then starts channeling someone else.

 

Yet, we don't know for sure that cryptics can't be seen in the Physical Realm. Yet, we only know that at the moment there are no people who consciously can see them.

 

 

I'm sorry to be all Sciency in a discussion about magic, guys, but when a person sees or feels something that other people can't see or feel, that thing isn't in the Physical realm. In real life, that thing would be called a hallucination. In the Cosmere, that thing would be called a Cognitive entity.

 

Remember that Shadesmar is a sort of mirror image of the Physical realm (sans the areas bereft of thinking creatures). The reason why Shallan and Elhokar can sense the Cryptics (Shallan unconsciously at first) could be because (and this is just speculation) the Physical and Cognitive realms share the same "space", being reflections of each other, and so it would make sense that people who have the potential ability to be in both realms would sometimes sense both realms at the same time. This of course requires that Elhokar be able to enter Shadesmar, but it still makes more sense to me than "there are Physical entities that nobody else can sense other than Shallan and a few others".

 

 

 

That doesn't answer my question. You said cryptics have a different form in the cognitive realm than the physical realm. I don't recall seeing any cryptics at all when Shallan visited shadesmar.

 

Ah. Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant was that the cryptics only exist in Shadesmar. Shallan has the special ability to interact with them even while still in the Physical realm, and the cryptics have the special ability to affect the Physical realm from Shadesmar.

Edited June 15, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Are you saying that Syl is not in the physical realm?

[skaa]

Are you saying that Syl is not in the physical realm?

 

That would be the implication, yes. Syl could somehow affect the Physical realm while still being a Cognitive entity.

 

(Somehow I sense a WoB about to be unleashed upon me by Phantom Monstrosity. *shivers* )

Edited June 15, 2013 by skaa

[Leuthie]

Syl can effect the Physical Realm through her bond with Kaladin.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Interview: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

Question

Can spren die?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, spren can die.

Question

Okay, so Syl, she's been around for at least a few thousand years, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

How does she forget her memories? Is it in connection to humans that makes it so she remembers things?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Question

And she's what, a Bonding Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out. She [says she's] an Honorspren, but you will find out.

Zas

Is that bond the Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

[Nervous grin on Brandon's face] [laughter] There is a certain amount of... It is a symbiotic bond that is gained by Syl. And things gained by the person bonding. And the stronger presence in the physical realm, and the ability to think better in the physical realm is a part of that bond. She is mostly getting [something] of the physical realm. Without the bond, it is very hard for her to think in this world.

Question

Because she's windspren?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of it. That's part of something else.

Question

Shallan. What the crap was up with the headless spren?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out! Read and Find out! I did just finish her flashback sequence, the first thing I wrote for the second book.

 

Syl, at least, is present in the physical realm.  Being bound to Kaladin gives her a stronger presence, but she's definitely got a physical presence of her own.

EDIT: darn quote tags!

Edited June 16, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[skaa]

Okay, reading that interview Phantom just quoted, I just remembered something that confused me about Syl appearing as a windspren at the start. Can everyone on Roshar see windspren? If yes, then could everyone see Syl's windspren form?

 

Anyway, back on topic, I think the word "presence" is a bit ambiguous here. In real life, people who think they could sense paranormal phenomenon would sometimes talk of "feeling the presence of a spirit". That "presence" doesn't make the spirit (assuming it actually exists) a physical entity. It would just be a spiritual entity affecting the physical world.

 

In the case of Syl and the cryptics (and my theorized odiumspren, the Shardblades), and perhaps even all spren, they are Cognitive entities that sometimes manifest a sort of presence in the Physical realm. Sometimes the presence is only a visual one (like in most spren we've seen so far). But sometimes the presence is stronger. The stronger their presence, the more they could affect Physical objects. Sometimes there is a strong Physical presence but without a visual component (e.g. cryptics during Soulcasting).

 

Note that everything in the last paragraph is just speculation.

Edited June 16, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

All entities are in all three realms, so...

[Senor Feesh]

Indeed, but to what degree?

 

Brandon Sanderson

Entities exist on all three realms that are only vaguely shadowed on the other realms. You have seen entities who exist primarily on the Cognitive Realm + are shadowed on the Physical.

 

Note that the above is not explicitly Spren. However, it does cast into question how much of a presence in each Realm any given entity has.

[skaa]

All entities are in all three realms, so...

 

They have a presence in all three realms, but most only "live" in one realm. Hence the need to have special abilities to access Shadesmar.

 

This is getting ridiculous. One minute you're arguing that Shardblades can't be spren because spren aren't Physical like Shardblades are. Then the next you're saying that spren are in all three realms. What exactly is your position, Phantom?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

They have a presence in all three realms, but most only "live" in one realm. Hence the need to have special abilities to access Shadesmar.

 

This is getting ridiculous. One minute you're arguing that Shardblades can't be spren because spren aren't Physical like Shardblades are. Then the next you're saying that spren are in all three realms. What exactly is your position, Phantom?

I'm saying that spren are insubstantial, whereas shardblades are not.  It isn't a question of 'being present in the physical domain', it's a question of 'can you touch it, y/n'?

 

Anyone can touch a shardblade.  They're visible to everyone.  Heck, you could balance an orange on one if you really want to, and though their blades have the nasty effect of cutting apart the soul, that's an entirely seperate thing.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[skaa]

I'm saying that spren are insubstantial, whereas shardblades are not. It isn't a question of 'being present in the physical domain', it's a question of 'can you touch it, y/n'?

Anyone can touch a shardblade. They're visible to everyone. Heck, you could balance an orange on one if you really want to, and though their blades have the nasty effect of cutting apart the soul, that's an entirely seperate thing.

This all goes back to my ghost analogy. If a ghost can affect the physical world, he can make it so that people can "touch" him by exerting a repelling force around the area that is "part" of him. But our theoretical ghost can't (or doesn't want to) perfectly mimic physical things, so we sometimes catch him doing ghostly things, like walking through walls.

I'm saying that I think Shardblades are like that, non-Physical entities that can affect the Physical realm and that temporarily and imperfectly mimic physical objects when being summoned. I think that's a simpler explanation than saying Shardblades are physical objects that selectively choose which physical laws to break depending on whether it's cutting living flesh or not, and then vanish unless you do something about it. A Cognitive entity would be able to break physical laws easier, is what I'm saying.

I'm not saying that Shardblades can't be physical entities (we don't know enough about Roshar's magic systems to say what isn't possible). I'm just speculating that they aren't. Is that alright with you?

Edited June 16, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

If nobody is holding a shardblade, it falls to the ground, and noticably *doesn't* burrow a hole to the planet's core and kill everyone.

 

Beside the king’s body, his Shardblade materialized from mist, clattering to the stones now that its master was dead.

 

The blade only cuts through stuff when it's active.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[skaa]

If nobody is holding a shardblade, it falls to the ground, and noticably *doesn't* burrow a hole to the planet's core and kill everyone.

 

 

The blade only cuts through stuff when it's active.

 

That's very interesting, Phantom, but I'm not quite sure I see the relevancy. Did I accidentally imply that it would burrow a hole to the planet's core once the owner dies?

 

Anyway, Honorblades vanish when their owners die, and I've already speculated about why that is so in the second part of my theory. If I'm correct about the Oathpact, normal Odiumspren/Shardblades would have to abandon their holders when they die, so it makes sense that they'd be looking for a new holder to bind to, by allowing someone else to grab them.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm saying that in their default, unactivated state, shardblades don't do anything weird in terms of interactions.  They act just like a 'normal' sword - so their 'cutting through the soul' isn't a manifestation of being an entity with limited physical realm presence.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity