Kelsier, the Sliver

[Pechvarry]

I did a brief search, but as simplistic as this theory seems, I didn't see it posted elsewhere.

Kelsier is now a Sliver, but a completely different kind than TLR was. He has no physical aspect (unlike Sazed, for example), but possesses a deific Cognitive (further augmented by the existence of Survivorism) and Spiritual aspect. Is this very much different than Ruin-when-chained?

With his expanded powers and a meddlesome personality, he would want to get involved with something. Not really much of anything to do on Scadrial, though. Sazed's got stuff under control. Time to explore Shadesmar, as pretty much the only thing he CAN do. So he gets involved with other planets. Now he needs a physical aspect. Being dead and all, he'll need someone else. An avatar. Someone who he trusts, and has absolute faith in him. I got it! Demoux!

So you have a being like a shard, but not quite a shard. Let's call him, for argument's sake, The Seventeenth Shard. But unlike a true shard, he'd need a physical aspect. While other Shards use their body - their energy - this one uses men blessed with the power of other shards. This one uses proxies.

This means Demoux isn't just a member of The Seventeenth Shard. He's the founding member. While the recipient of "The Letter" is most certainly not Kelsier, it could be an ally of his. The biggest issue is The Recipient insisting on non-intervention, which Kelsier is diametrically opposed to. But if Kell owed him big. Like, by being able to help him syphon off more of Adonalsium's power, maybe Kelsier would reciprocate by allowing The Recipient the use of his Seventeenth Sharders.

This could help explain why Kelsier and Hoid don't get along.

EDIT: if we have proof of SS' existence pre-HoA, then my theory adjusts to incorporate a body of Cognitive Aspects lingering in a similar manner to Kelsier. For example, the minds of now-dead, previous shard-holders.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Senor Feesh]

I have one or two issues with this, but I'd have to dig the evidence up later due to mobile browsing.

A Sliver is, by definition, someone who once held the power of a Shard. Currently Kelsier has none of that, only the trace Investiture that it leaves behind. Assuming he can meddle at all I'm sure it doesn't involve any Shard-like abilities.

Secondly, though we still don't know who, the Recipient is confirmed to be someone from Hoid's past, in an as-yet unpublished story. This makes them likely someone from Yolen, and I don't really see how Kell is going to know any of those guys, or gave them owe him.

[Pechvarry]

Well, neither of those issues really refute the theory. He's not a real shard, because that would require a body (literally) of power, as the mists are to Preservation.

But he's more of a shard than an organization, and if you think about it, what would drive an organization of men to name themselves Shard? If the seventeenth shard has a sliver (with religious backing) calling the shots, this could make sense.

And we certainly know nothing of The Recipient. But that just means we have a 300 year gap where we don't know what could have happened.

[Wonko the Sane]

They would name themselves the Seventeenth Shard because it identifies the reason they joined forces. The Shards (and also Hoid) are the only real players in the Cosmere game, and pretty much every galactically significant event can be attributed to their interactions. The Seventeenth Shard, then, are a group of (relatively) ordinary people who decided to band together in order to contend with gods.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Wonko the Sane

[Nepene]

I have one or two issues with this, but I'd have to dig the evidence up later due to mobile browsing.

A Sliver is, by definition, someone who once held the power of a Shard. Currently Kelsier has none of that, only the trace Investiture that it leaves behind. Assuming he can meddle at all I'm sure it doesn't involve any Shard-like abilities.

Secondly, though we still don't know who, the Recipient is confirmed to be someone from Hoid's past, in an as-yet unpublished story. This makes them likely someone from Yolen, and I don't really see how Kell is going to know any of those guys, or gave them owe him.

 

Didn't Kelsier hold the powers of Preservation when Leras died, thus making him a sliver?

[Senor Feesh]

Yes, but a Sliver doesn't retain the power of the Shard. As such, he's not going to have any Shard-like powers.
 
source

If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium

Edited June 6, 2013 by Senor Feesh

[Pechvarry]

I'm under the impression that you DO keep a fair amount of power once it has left you. It changes you. Look at Vin's power mid-ascension, destroying all of Kredik Shaw with ease. Note the similarity to TLR's power. I believe Sanderson said that much power rips troughs in your spirit web, warping your body but making it capable of holding more power.

Kell lacks a body to warp, but he should be similarly changed in mind and soul.

[Senor Feesh]

I'm not sure I follow your logic - as you said, Vin destroys Kredik Shaw mid-ascension. She's actually HOLDING the power at that time, so has that to fuel her abilities. And I believe the comment about ripping troughs in your soul was referring to Savants, who actively channel the power almost constantly, which is different to merely holding it.

 

Don't forget that TLR was a Mistborn (Lerasium-first-generation), a full feruchemist (so able to compound all him allomantic abilities) and a hermalurgist on top of that. His power post-well is easily accounted for.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm not sure I follow your logic - as you said, Vin destroys Kredik Shaw mid-ascension. She's actually HOLDING the power at that time, so has that to fuel her abilities. And I believe the comment about ripping troughs in your soul was referring to Savants, who actively channel the power almost constantly, which is different to merely holding it.

 

It was referring to actual ascension being basically the same thing as lerasium savantage.

 

But yeah, what Vin does while actively inhaling mists is different from what a sliver has.

 

2) What about a Lerasium savant? Or would that require so much Lerasium that the person attempting it would ascend to become a new Shardholder?

Basically, this is what ascension is.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=727

Kaimipono (16 October 2008)

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Pechvarry]

This is frustrating. Where do you people dig up your quotes other than searching that WoT database that never returns what I'm looking for?

I know we have a quote where he states Kelsier is considered a sliver (I'm sure I've seen it just in the last week, yet I couldn't find it in the database).

I also think we've seen quotes that basically spell out that "Splinters are special". So if Kelsier is still considered a Sliver after Vin ascends, that necessarily makes him still special.

That's a lot of Ifs.

Can someone provide quotes to refute, at least?

[WeiryWriter]

This is frustrating. Where do you people dig up your quotes other than searching that WoT database that never returns what I'm looking for?

I know we have a quote where he states Kelsier is considered a sliver (I'm sure I've seen it just in the last week, yet I couldn't find it in the database).

I also think we've seen quotes that basically spell out that "Splinters are special". So if Kelsier is still considered a Sliver after Vin ascends, that necessarily makes him still special.

That's a lot of Ifs.

Can someone provide quotes to refute, at least?

 

Here is the quote saying Kelsier is a sliver.  When you are searching the database make sure to search twice, the first just searches the tags, the second actually searches the interviews.

 

As for quotes to refute... I found this about about what the residue sliver's have but Brandon's question does kind of dodge the question.  The impression I get is that being a sliver only "attunes" you slightly to the Shard's intent.

 

Edit: Oh, it seems Senor Feesh had that first quote in his post...

Edited June 6, 2013 by WeiryWriter

[Pechvarry]

Ok, so we know there is a residue.  I'm guessing we can agree it changes you.  But I don't really want to focus on just how strong Kelsier is compared to a Shard.  

 

The big thing I want to focus on is that Demoux is more likely to be an agent of Kelsier's than of Sazed's.  Which would mean Kelsier is involved with the Seventeenth Shard, which brings me to the fact that he's technically a Sliver.

 

Say you have a small business.  There is a team of Salesmen who answer to the Salesman Supervisor.  There's an Engineering department that answers to the Lead Engineer.  The Salesman Supervisor and the Lead Engineer both answer directly to the President.  The President's Assistant also answers directly to the President.  He's, from a hierarchy perspective, peers with the different department managers.  But that doesn't mean he has the same power to make changes in the company.

 

Likewise, A Cognitive Sliver like Kelsier would quite likely see himself as a being "Of Adonalsium" now, just like a shard.  He doesn't need shard-like power to recognize himself to be on the same level of hierarchy.  This would explain a name like Seventeenth Shard which is a bit pretentious for a sliver (and Kelsier probably is), but is absurdly pretentious if you're just a group of dudes whose power has gone very far into the head.

 

Also, thank you for the search help, WW.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Wonko the Sane]

I don't think it's pretentious at all. Imagine the following scenario:

 

Various people, over time, become fairly Realmatically aware. Eventually, they find each other and group up. Then they realize how puny and insignificant they are. The fact of the matter, as they quickly discover, is that there are sixteen people who decide the fate of the cosmere, and that everyone else is irrelevant. They decide that they do not like this situation. They come up with a plan: while they realize that they could never directly hope to contend with the power of a Shard, they think that, perhaps, if they all band together, they might nevertheless be able to work towards making a difference in the universe. With this in mind, they resolve enter this cosmic game as a new (albeit weaker) player - a seventeenth Shard, as it were, peer to the sixteen if not in power, then at least in influence.

 

Keep in mind that they don't call themselves followers of the Seventeenth Shard; they call themselves members, meaning that the term describes the entire organization - that they, as a collective, are the Seventeenth Shard. Would it have made sense if Zane had called himself a member of Ruin? Regardless of whether my interpretation is accurate, I find it highly unlikely that the term Seventeenth Shard refers to only the organization's leader, Kelsier or otherwise.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Wonko the Sane

[Dros]

I don't think it's pretentious at all. Imagine the following scenario:

 

Various people, over time, become fairly Realmatically aware. Eventually, they find each other and group up. Then they realize how puny and insignificant they are. The fact of the matter, as they quickly discover, is that there are sixteen people who decide the fate of the cosmere, and that everyone else is irrelevant. They decide that they do not like this situation. They come up with a plan: while they realize that they could never directly hope to contend with the power of a Shard, they think that, perhaps, if they all band together, they might nevertheless be able to work towards making a difference in the universe. With this in mind, they resolve enter this cosmic game as a new (albeit weaker) player - a seventeenth Shard, as it were, peer to the sixteen if not in power, then at least in influence.

 

Keep in mind that they don't call themselves followers of the Seventeenth Shard; they call themselves members, meaning that the term describes the entire organization - that they, as a collective, are the Seventeenth Shard. Would it have made sense if Zane had called himself a member of Ruin? Regardless of whether my interpretation is accurate, I find it highly unlikely that the term Seventeenth Shard refers to only the organization's leader, Kelsier or otherwise.

 

But the Letter indicates the Seventeenth Shard is an organization that practices non-intervention.

[Oudeis]

The Letter also says that the receipient knew Ati before he took up Ruin. I do not think Kelsier did. Also, i will find it when i am sessile, but i think te receipient is confirmed to be a dragon from Yolen.

[Pechvarry]

Yes, the recipient is a dragon.  As I said earlier in this thread: I know The Recipient isn't Kelsier.  I also know The Seventeenth Shard is an organization.  But It seems entirely possible this organization is named for a ghost sliver Kelsier at its head.

 

Or, as I suggested at the end of the OP, a group of similar cognitive Slivers. 
 

I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me. If anything I have said makes a glimmer of sense to you, I trust that you'll call them off.

Not "your minions." Your friends. While it's obvious this dragon has a great deal of pull in what the Seventeenth Shard does, this implies he is not part of the Seventeenth Shard.

 

I regret even mentioning the letter in my OP, as this is entire string of conversation is starting to feel entirely nonsequitor. 

 

The fact is: Demoux worshiped Kelsier and not Sazed.  It makes more sense to me for him to be Kell's champion; not Harmony's.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Dros]

Don't get me wrong, I like the line of thought, but I'm just not sure what Kelsier's status is, much less whether he would have the physical capacity to put together such an organization.

[Oudeis]

Yes, the recipient is a dragon.  As I said earlier in this thread: I know The Recipient isn't Kelsier.  I also know The Seventeenth Shard is an organization.  But It seems entirely possible this organization is named for a ghost sliver Kelsier at its head.

 

Ah. Sorry, I misunderstood your initial post, then.

 

I still don't agree with you, however. You speak of Kelsier having power, of him being something more because he's a Sliver. How he's like chained-Ruin. I disagree.

 

I don't think being a Sliver gives you anything concrete. Being a Sliver gives you the potential to be/do something more, not a constant boost in power. It's rather like being a former President of the United States; you get a library and a security detail and it's great at parties, but you haven't got any actual political power anymore. Add that to Kelsier's state of being dead and, well...

 

Ruin, even chained, was a Shard. I'll admit I've always been a bit fuzzy on this, so someone please feel free to correct me. A Shard has a mind, a body, and a power. Ruin's mind was (mostly) trapped. About halfway through his imprisonment, Rashek hid his body. His power has always been free, the instinctive force of Ruin opposing the force of Preservation like a see-saw. Kelsier is nothing like that. His physical body is dead, digested, and utterly divorced from his current state. True, he once briefly directed the power of Preservation, but being a Sliver does not grant him any true Power of his own, and his Mistborn power, such as it was, died with his body.

 

His mind... I'd like to know the premise for your beliefs about deific cognition. I have heard things here and there about it in the Cosmere, but I don't know anything concrete. I know the basics for how apotheosis works in other books, where enough people worshipping you turns you into a god, but I have no idea how that works in the Cosmere, though things I've heard suggest it is a thing. If you can link me to any information we have on the subject, you would find me most grateful.

 

That said, we've never seen any large-scale deific intervention that wasn't a result of a Shard. If a generic "god" has any power on any shardworld. I will need to see some compelling evidence before I accept that the Church of the Survivor grants Kelsier the power to do as you suggest. And even if it did, surely a church on one world wouldn't grant you the power to travel to other worlds and meddle?

 

Lastly... I feel that Kelsier is, in fact, done. Ghosts are not meant to wander the earth. He took care of those he loved, and at the end of the final book it is heavily implied that, at long last, he is given the opportunity to introduce Mare to Vin, the daughter she always wanted. Death can change a man, and I personally believe that Kelsier realized it was finally time for him to rest. And if he didn't, Vin and Mare were there to smack some sense into him.

 

All that said, I fully admit I have little to no hard data to support my suppositions. You could very well prove to be entirely correct. I simply don't believe so.

[Cracknut]

I remember BS saying that Kel's still around so I doubt he's gone for good. He won't get revived but he'll be there for sure.

Being Sliver might make you stronger but that's besides the point. 17th shard isn't a real shard and someone being Sliver once doesn't means its named after him(because there's a difference between Slivers and Shards obviously). So there's no reason to think that Kel is a founder.

On the other hand I believe holding a Shard even for a short time makes you special but that doesn't necessarily means becoming more powerful.

 

And I think it might be possible for Demoux to be Kels agent instead of Sazeds.

[Arook]

When was it confirmed that the recipient of the letter is a dragon?

[Shardlet]

Here is the source for the confirmation.

 

Hello all! I know I'm new here, though I've been lurking for a while and haven't come across this. Over on the WoK reread, a commenter (Zizoz, likely the very same from here on 17th Shard) noted the "old reptile" bit and postulated that the recipient might be a dragon. Another commenter said they would ask their husband to ask Brandon about this at GenCon. That same (Ciella) posted earlier:

 

Quote

I just a got a call from my husband. I told him to ask "If the recepient of Hoid's Letter in Way of Kings is a Dragon?". I really expected Sanderson to RAFO it, but instead he confirmed it!! Apparently he said that no one has ever asked him that before and that it was right on the money and from an unpublished book (Dragonsteel, I'm sure). Assuming the hubby asked correctly, that confirms both that the recipient is a Dragon and Hoid is the writer. Great catch!!!

 

 

 

[Pechvarry]

@Darnam: I have no proof. I put this forth as a theory. And not even one I'm completely sold on. But I find it a very compelling line of thought.

As for "I'm a god because people worship me" -- this is more a notion on cognitive aspects in the Cosmere. A chair thinks it's a chair. It could even be called a throne, but would it see itself as a throne without an empire acknowledging the power of the person sitting upon it? If enough people believe The Survivor continues to watch over them, would this be enduring enough to keep his mind from fading away?

But I don't think the Church of the Survivor gives him power. I don't think it makes him capable of traversing the Cosmere. I just think it's something of a foundation for his mind. And I think the power of Preservation expanded that mind.

 

 

Being Sliver might make you stronger but that's besides the point. 17th shard isn't a real shard and someone being Sliver once doesn't means its named after him(because there's a difference between Slivers and Shards obviously). So there's no reason to think that Kel is a founder.

I think I did a pretty good job of giving reasons why I DO think Kel could be the founder.

[Araris Valerian]

@Darnam Since Allomancy and other such powers are attached to the spiritweb, theoretically a revived Kelsier would still be a Mistborn.

 

As for slivers, can we add the Nightwatcher to the list? I feel like she would count as one since she used to hold the power of a shard. This makes:

Vin: No sliver powers, HoA distinguishes using the power of the well and letting it go

TLR: Vastly increased Allomancy powers

Kelsier: Unknown

Nightwatcher: Magical mystery powers with neurological effects.

 

Since Vin can be counted as an oddball, we can say that all of the slivers that we encountered that used the power of their respective shard were enhanced in some way beyond normal humans. Good theory.

[Shardlet]

As for slivers, can we add the Nightwatcher to the list? I feel like she would count as one since she used to hold the power of a shard.

 

The nightwatcher's nature is still unclear.  It looks to me that the evidence most strongly supports that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation and therefore would not be a sliver.

[Cracknut]

I think I did a pretty good job of giving reasons why I DO think Kel could be the founder.

Not really. There are some nice guesses but most of the stuff about Kel being 17thshards founder is just too far-fetched imo. I mean, he could be, but with same amount of proofs that could be said about other characters. For example it could be Harmony simply because nonintervention(openly) isn't as much unbelievable for him as much as for Kel and creating 17thshard would've been easier for him. + IMO 17th shard is a more scholarly organization than some kind of Cosmere Police for catching worldhoppers and/or saving the world. And as far as I know Kel wasn't that type of a character. Founders of 17th shard could easily be Elantrians and Returned simply because they are immortal or at least got a really long lifespan, most of the characters from those books were scholarly and it wouldn't surprise me if they found out about Cosmere. Not to mention that Elantrians(those before Reod) could've been aware of Cosmere. So I'm not saying your theory is wrong, there are just too many other possibilities you can't prove wrong and you don't have any proofs to put "Kelsier is a founder of a 17th shard" above those guesses. But if this was all about Kel being one of the candidates then you're right. He could be and you got some nice guesses about how he could've pulled it off.

Edit: After remembering how much I love Kelsier I'll just have to go with it...

So followers of survivorism affect his Cognitive and Spiritual realms which both were expanded/upgraded/whatever by holding Preservation for a time hence shaping him into an actual god. So he COULD be considered as a Shard. He just lacks adonalsiumness therefore he's not as powerful as other gods and can't face them in an old fashioned Kelsier style. Most likely he created 17th shard with Sazed because why not. And 17th shards main purpose is to pull of some sick heist to get something real important done, what that thing is I don't know though This also could be a reason why they're against open interventions, because they're doing something behind the scenes just like Hoid but they need Hoid to stop whatever he's doing because:

A. He might accidentally(or not) undermine their plan.

B. Most likely Hoid is trying to recreate Adonalsium, which might not be as fun as it sounds. As far as we know it might as well destroy whole Cosmere. Kel would be against that. Especially if he developed his own intent: Survival. Now if Hoid knows what Adonalsium's revival will bring and he's still trying to do it then he might be our main antagonist which I hope he isn't. Ahh but two greatest masterminds of Cosmere clashing in the final battle of minds... Sorry Hoid, you'll have to die bro ;(

Edited November 18, 2013 by 213