Chasmfiends - development

[Meg]

Reading this posting I started. :-) I'm sure there were postings about this subject (maturing of chasmfinds/finishing the pupation-process) but I beg for your pardon, I'm at work and don't really dare searching around a lot (not to mention that I get distracted always).

Am I the only one that got an 'aha experience' while reading this quote about the chasmfiends? :-)

Q: Have any Chasmfiends managed to mature? Or have they all been caught before they could finish?

Brandon: You've already seen one. The enormous Chasmfiend that Dalinar fought was one that had successfully matured. You haven't seen what they start out as...

So, now our question isn't anymore what accrues out of the chrysalises but what were the chrysalises before they pupate.

edit: typos

Edited February 21, 2013 by Meg

[Takeshi]

While readers haven't seen pre-pupation (larvae?) chasmfiends, i don't think it's a mystery to the Alethi. They have scouts always watching for chasmefiends coming onto the plateaus to pupate. I assume they see larvae Chasmfiends.

[Nepene]

While readers haven't seen pre-pupation (larvae?) chasmfiends, i don't think it's a mystery to the Alethi. They have scouts always watching for chasmefiends coming onto the plateaus to pupate. I assume they see larvae Chasmfiends.

We may have seen them in some form. They could be crabs, or chull, or cremlings, and we could have only seen an intermediate form. Brandon likes to foreshadow. Some readers may be smart enough to pick up whatever hints before the reveal and guess one of their stages of life.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Nepene

[Voidus]

Well it's obviously the Bridgemen, they go out to Honor chasm, soak up some leftover Shardic power from Honor and then turn into gigantic monsters with hearts made out of gemstones.

Well obviously the Parshendi are a possibility, this could be the storm form we saw a while back in one of the SA2 readings.

[Galladon]

Well obviously the Parshendi are a possibility, this could be the storm form we saw a while back in one of the SA2 readings.

reading-s? have I missed one (Parshendi-Viewpoint (toronto); the 3 parts of his writing the interlude-chapter about rysn (that her name?))?

I don't think that they evolve from parshendi, with them beeing so obnoctious about their dead, I doubt they would kill them and cut out their gem-hearts.

It's likely that this would have to be a species that is limited to the shattered plains, I don't think that we know of this species yet but it would be very much like Sanderson if he hid it 14 times in the book already .

Do they maybe atrract more spren and absorbe Stormlight and rapidly expand their gemhearts?

[Voidus]

There was a Shallan flashback reading as well I think, I'll try and find a link.

[Galladon]

My link

thanks for the tipp

[Meg]

While readers haven't seen pre-pupation (larvae?) chasmfiends, i don't think it's a mystery to the Alethi. They have scouts always watching for chasmefiends coming onto the plateaus to pupate. I assume they see larvae Chasmfiends.

This is a valid point (that I missed to write in the OP).

Despite the people on the Shattered Plains knowing about this, I dare to say that 'we' didn't know it. Remembering some postings I'm under the impression that we (most of us) didn't even think about this possibility. But ... I'm sorry, that hole thing may not be so interesting for others than for me :-).

But now we have to think the other way around: what were the chasmfiends before pupating? I'm really curious about this.

[hoser]

Interesting

What do we know about these things:

1. They crawl onto the plateaus, IIRC, so no flying.
   
2. Presumably they are about the same volume and mass as the pupae (although they can get bigger after pupation), so they must be pretty big.
   
3. The Shattered plains haven't been around forever. If they got shattered after the Heralds quit, then they are less than 4500 years old. Evolutionarily, that doesn't seem like very long, even with Cultivation meddling. It seems like there is a significant possibility that they are an adaptation of another Greatshell (that may no longer exist).
   

I got nothing. Maybe Shallan will draw one in SA2.

[Dros]

Interesting. It strengthens my opinion that the ancient drawing Jasnah has of a Chasmfiend with the caption "Voidbringer" is misleading. Chasmfiends aren't nice by any means, but it doesn't seem like they're sentient, i.e. they have no true malicious intent, and they won't get any meaner or bigger either if this is their final stage of growth. Seems to me, they're just an animal with a particularly valuable organ.

[Torian'Omil Stonespark]

Interesting. It strengthens my opinion that the ancient drawing Jasnah has of a Chasmfiend with the caption "Voidbringer" is misleading. Chasmfiends aren't nice by any means, but it doesn't seem like they're sentient, i.e. they have no true malicious intent, and they won't get any meaner or bigger either if this is their final stage of growth. Seems to me, they're just an animal with a particularly valuable organ.

I would have to agree completely...the particular drawing strikes me more as a historical inaccuracy, in that some Chasmfiend possibly wondered into a populated area and the residents had no other name to relate to a monstrosity of that size other than the term Voidbringer during that particular time period. It is consistent with the "they are myths" and "OMG they are real...protect us from the Voidbringers!" train of thought people experience.

[Galladon]

Interesting. It strengthens my opinion that the ancient drawing Jasnah has of a Chasmfiend with the caption "Voidbringer" is misleading. Chasmfiends aren't nice by any means, but it doesn't seem like they're sentient, i.e. they have no true malicious intent, and they won't get any meaner or bigger either if this is their final stage of growth. Seems to me, they're just an animal with a particularly valuable organ.

Well we know:

- that they grow during pupation

- that the chasmfiend of the hunt was one of the biggest ever seen

- they have been hunting them since 5 years

Thoughts inbetween:

- They only could have just been sarting to grow to this extend otherwise larger ones would have been sighted at the beginning than towards the end

- contradictory to this would be if the parshendi had been hunting them at large scale in the past ( I can't find the passage discribing the first encounter - there was something - I think)

Conclusion:

- likely that they, as honourspren bonding, only just began pupating shortly before

-> if that is the case it would be directly connected to the comeing of the everstorm

-> this making it likely for them to actually be the voidbringers

- becoming sentioned beeings by pupating often enough and waiting (like syl becoming more manifest in the physical world and Kal becoming stronger

- though they don't seem to be an imminant threat (populationwise)

so it's not impossible for them to be the actual pre-stage of the voidbringers

[Meg]

While looking up something in TWoK I found this:

"Chasmfiends, well, you're used to attacking them in their chrysalises. Don't forget how mean they are when they're not pupating."

Bashin, huntmaster, in his pre-hunt advice during the hunt (TWoK chapter 12)

As Brandon said, we "haven't seen what they start out as..." this quote from Bashin may or may not mean that chasmfiends don't merely pupate once in their life. Or the pupation is the last step for the maturing of chasmfiends. So it is mentioned that "chasmfiends crawl up to a plateau for pupate" (that's paraphrased) it seems that the real adult chasmfiends aren't (very) different to the last-to-adult-ones. But we really don't know "what they start out as..."

[hoser]

Well we know:

- that they grow during pupation

...

Really? I must have missed this. Where does it say this?

In our world, insects don't grow during pupation, they just change. No eating means no gain in mass. These things are encased in rock, essentially, so while their gemhearts will be a source of energy, I don't see how they would gain the mass needed to grow.

[Senor Feesh]

Really? I must have missed this. Where does it say this?

In our world, insects don't grow during pupation, they just change. No eating means no gain in mass. These things are encased in rock, essentially, so while their gemhearts will be a source of energy, I don't see how they would gain the mass needed to grow.

Perhaps they gorge themselves prior to pupating? Don't know if that would work or not, not a biologist. Also, magic (potentially a cop-out answer, but we pretty much know gemhearts are invested).

[Windrunner]

I wouldn't be too worried about a mass gain.

Minor AoL Spoilers

I'm sure Miles gained plenty of mass every time he got blown to bits.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Really? I must have missed this. Where does it say this?

In our world, insects don't grow during pupation, they just change. No eating means no gain in mass. These things are encased in rock, essentially, so while their gemhearts will be a source of energy, I don't see how they would gain the mass needed to grow.

They can still get bigger, even if they don't get more massive. After all, whenever a crab molts it ends up bigger than it was before.

You can make an argument about butterfly size as well, though inflating their wings is sort of cheating.

[The Count]

...I don't see how they would gain the mass needed to grow.

Erm.. they pupate an await a highstorm (can someone dig up the quote?)

Plenty of energy floating around to provide a gain in size I think.

I think I agree that chasmfiends must pupate more than once in their lifecycle (The crab shedding their shell is probably a good analogy).

If I were to make a guess, I would say that they need the energy of the highstorm to grow and need the crysalis to channel the energy of (or maybe just to survive) the storm itself. Given Rochar's climate, this seems like a reasonable evolutionary path for such a creaature.

[dyring]

What I would like to know is if one highstorm is enough, or they need several while pupating.

If one is enough, a bunch is going to succede with pupating despite the hunting, as some will climb up to near a highstorm for a hunt to be possible.

If Several is required, I doubt any is successful at all.

[Meg]

Erm.. they pupate an await a highstorm (can someone dig up the quote?)

Here's your quote :-)

Sometime during the strange life cycle of the chasmfiends, they sought the western side of the Plains, where the plateaus were wider. They climbed up onto the tops and made a rocky chrysalis, wating for the coming of a highstorm.

TWoK, Chapter 15

What I would like to know is if one highstorm is enough, or they need several while pupating.

If one is enough, a bunch is going to succede with pupating despite the hunting, as some will climb up to near a highstorm for a hunt to be possible.

If Several is required, I doubt any is successful at all.

And, I think, with this quote from TWoK this idea that some (or more) chasmfiends succeed with their pupation because they are to far to the east, seems disproved :/.

[The Count]

Here's your quote :-)

Thank you, was about to post it myself after scouring my kindle for it, but you beat me to it!

And, I think, with this quote from TWoK this idea that some (or more) chasmfiends succeed with their pupation because they are to far to the east, seems disproved :/.

I agree mostly, I think some must complete their pupation process (the one they killed on the hunt is proof enough of that).

However, from the map of the shattered plains (the one showing the war camps), it does not look that large a place and betweent the Alethi and Parshendi, I think they must get ~80 - 90% of the crysalises (crysali?).

Also didn't Brandon say in one of the Q&A's that there was going to be a large ecological fallout from the hunting of the Chasmfiends? I take that to imply that very few survive pupating at the moment.

[Senor Feesh]

I would probably still say that come chasmfiends survive pupation, as it seems unlikely that EVERY one would be discovered and split open (by Parshendi or Alethi); the monster that Dalinar fights certainly suggests that some small number reach maturity. However it certainly seems likely that most would be killed (both as a natural reading of the text and Brandon's quote about ecological damage).

[Martinitram]

Aside from from Chasmfiends, How many Greatshell species have been mentioned? 2, maybe 3?

Whitespines (what the heck is that exactly?)

Some aquatic ones (no name mentioned)

And were Chulls classified as Greatshells?

Anywho, was it mentioned somewhere that there were an extinct form of greatshells that were overhunted in some distant land to the east for their gemhearts?

Do all greatshells have gemhearts?

How long have gemhearts been in use in Roshar?

Do you HAVE to have a gemheart to make a stormlight gem? Can they mine them?

Are these even relevant questions?

[Martinitram]

Also..

Is there a connection to the Parshendi calling the Chasmfiends their gods? But then attacking them like the Alethi do?

What about a connection to the SA2 reading where BS explains that the Parshendi were wary of Gavilar bringing back there gods?

Is that black gemstone that Szeth hid have anything to do with this all?

[Cheese Ninja]

Aside from from Chasmfiends, How many Greatshell species have been mentioned? 2, maybe 3?

Whitespines (what the heck is that exactly?)

Some aquatic ones (no name mentioned)

And were Chulls classified as Greatshells?

Anywho, was it mentioned somewhere that there were an extinct form of greatshells that were overhunted in some distant land to the east for their gemhearts?

Do all greatshells have gemhearts?

How long have gemhearts been in use in Roshar?

Do you HAVE to have a gemheart to make a stormlight gem? Can they mine them?

Are these even relevant questions?

Whitespines are not greatshells, they're "reptilian creatures, as big as horses but with carapace across their backs" that have claws and tusks. One of them injures Roshone and kills his son.

“Gavilar always wanted to slay one of these,” Dalinar said wistfully. “He loved greatshell hunts, though he never got a chasmfiend. Odd that I’ve now killed so many.”

So there seems to be quite a variety.

Stormlight 2 Spoilers

If you look at the Rysn interlude for book 2 youtube videos, you get to see a bit of what the superhuge Reshi greatshells are like. (Fairly placid.)

The other aquatic variety of greatshell we were told about:

Sigzil continued, eyes forward, “it made me think of the Marabethians. You see, they have a curious way of treating condemned criminals. They dangle them over the seaside cliff near the city, down near the water at high tide, with a cut sliced in each cheek. There is a particular species of greatshell in the depths there. The creatures are known for their succulent flavor, and of course they have gemhearts. Not nearly as large as the ones in these chasmfiends, but still nice. So the criminals, they become bait. A criminal may demand execution instead, but they say if you hang there for a week and are not eaten, then you can go free.”

“Perhaps,” Jasnah said. “The Parshendi seemed amused at our interest in the gemstones woven into their beards.” She smiled. “You should have seen our shock when we discovered where they’d gotten them. When the lanceryn died off during the scouring of Aimia, we thought we’d seen the last gemhearts of large size. And yet here was another great-shelled beast with them, living in a land not too distant from Kholinar itself.

Aimia is a fairly large island well to the west of everything else. It's notable for a few reasons, and it's implied that we'll learn more about it eventually. The Aimian races (Siah and Dysian) aren't quite human either, in much the same way that Parshmen/Parshendi aren't human.

I'm pretty sure chulls aren't considered greatshells. They aren't described as such anywhere in the book.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Windrunner
Spoilers