Chasmfiends - development

[Windrunner]

Hey guys, I realize that it's exciting to want to discuss the stuff we've figured out from Stormlight 2 readings, interlude videos, and elsewhere. There are people who don't want to hear anything about Stormlight 2 until they actually get the chance to read it though. I'm going to start a discussion with the admins on what specifically we want to do in regards to spoilers and I'll let you all know ASAP. Until then, please put stuff in spoiler tags or, if the topic is dedicated to something in Stormlight 2, in the topic description.

[Cheese Ninja]

I thought I had kept it pretty vague, but good point. In WoK, there's a brief mention in Geranid's interlude about Reshi greatshells, which I had never noticed before.:

“All right,” she called back. The window was open, and she looked out over a darkening, glassy expanse of water. The Reshi Sea wasn’t as shallow as the Purelake, but it was quite warm most of the time, dotted with tropical islands and the occasional monster of a greatshell.

[Meg]

I'm pretty sure chulls aren't considered greatshells. They aren't described as such anywhere in the book.

I apologize for conradicting :-).

Not this again, Adolin thought. Why was everyone so offended that he didn’t find hunts exciting? “It’s just an oversized chull, Father.”

“These ‘oversized chulls’ grow to fifty feet tall and are capable of crushing even a man in Shardplate.”

TWoK Chapter 12

edit 1:

The chasmfiend towered like a mountain of interlocking carapace the color of dark violet ink. ... While it was vaguely crustacean, this was no bulky, placid chull.

TWoK Chapter 13

edit 2:

There is a little article on the Coppermind wiki about greatshells too.

edit 3:

@ Martinitram:

Anywho, was it mentioned somewhere that there were an extinct form of greatshells that were overhunted in some distant land to the east for their gemhearts? (1)

Do all greatshells have gemhearts? (2)

Do you HAVE to have a gemheart to make a stormlight gem? Can they mine them? (3)

Is there a connection to the Parshendi calling the Chasmfiends their gods? But then attacking them like the Alethi do? (4)

(numbers added by me)

@(1): Q&A thread here on the forums

@(2): yes, and not only greatshells

@(3): Gems can be mined, but I'm lazy now and give you a Meg-RY* for that :-) (you can read it in TWoK itself).

@(4): As far as TWoK ends, I claim, it's not sure that the chasmfiends are greatly feared gods to the Parshendi.

*RY=ReadYourself because I don't dare creating a "Meg-RAFO".

Edited March 2, 2013 by Meg

[Martinitram]

Meg, thanks for answering my questions. As I am in the middle of my second reading of the book (going at a slower pace) I am sure I will get to the Meg-RY part eventually

All this speculation on the Chasmfiends/pupating greatshells is leading me to ponder their origin. After looking at the link to the coppermind page on greatshells (chulls are considered greatshells here, but that may or may not be cannon) it reminded me of some important things:

Greatshells have violet blood... In the prelude chapter, it is mentioned that Kalak saw 3 kinds of blood: red, orange, and violet. If I'm not mistaken Parshendi have orange blood. So, we know that during the Desolations humans, greatshells, and Parshendi (or some form of the Parshedi) fought during these battles. The real question is who fought against who? It is easy to assume that Humans fought against both other species. And this is probably right. If that then, why are the Parshendi now fighting the Chasmfiends (or pre-chasmfiends)?

Here's a theory on that:

If humans are from Yolen (or created from beings of Yolen i.e. Ati and Leras's creation on Scadrial) and are essentially aliens on Roshar, then perhaps the Parshendi and Greatshells are natives to Roshar -Meg you mentioned the Aimians, perhaps they were natives as well. Or, it is possible that these 2 species were created by the Shardholders on Roshar, but more specifically Odium was directly involved. It seems that there is a strong connection from both of these species to being originally wrought from stone.

Greatshells: They create a crysalis- geological cocoon, they have a Gemstone as a heart, and so on.. (heck even the plant life seems very rock like)

Parshendi: Marblized skin patterns, ability to create a carapace layer (not rock like, but so close to the crustaceans on the planet i.e. greatshells)

We know that soulcasting can transform one type of matter to another, so that type of magic is feasable, if say someone or something changed rock, stone, crystal, etc. into a living being. Also, I believe that Sigzil mentioned a story of a Makabaki woman who used some type of magic to create her children from rocks.

That being said, is it possible that the greatshells and/or Parshendi are living fabrications of geological substances?

If this is true, than who would have created them and to what purpose?

It seems that Odium may to fit into this equation somehow, based on the nature of the 2 species. Now, as for the Parshendi and their gods/God... Is it possible that they have forsaken their true god (Odium) because they have evolved into a more enlightened species?

There were many religions/cultures in our own (Earth) history that had a vile and destructive nature (i.e. Mayan, Aztec, Babylonian, and I hope I'm not offending anyone here, and this is a stretch). Once these cultures became enlightened, either by choice or submission, they for the most part gave up their pagan or destructive beliefs and adopted more virtuous ideals. Could this be what has happened to the Parshendi in a way (I am basing this on BS's Eshonai reading, and am aware of a possible spoiler, but honestly this is SA forum not a WoK forum)?

Could the Parshendi have come to the realization that their God/gods are of an evil (hateful) intent, and have chosen to forsake their religion? To me it seems that eventually they will become ally's with at least some of the righteous factions in this story. Perhaps the voidbringers are one of the forms of the Parshendi (sorry but Szeth mentioned the voidbringers having surgebinding qualities, so that leads me to believe that they are humanoid and sentient... not greatshells). And perhaps if the Parshendi are voidbringers, as Jasnah and Shallan believe (just because some characters believe one thing doesn't make it true, but in this it makes sense), then maybe the voidbringers will eventually become goodguys, this will throw a wrench into Odiums plans, and the true baddies will eventually be the 10 deaths, i.e. Thunderclasts, midnight essences, etc.

I am completely aware that this theory is a HUGE tangent on the topic, it has most likely been discussed before (you guys are extremely sharp), and it doesn't really describe the purpose of the Chasmfiend pupation. But I believe that understanding the true nature of the Parshendi may be major key to realizing the importance to the Chasmfiend phenomenon.

Feel free to poke as many holes in this as you all like... I'm not totally sold on any of this, its just specualtion, but if anyone has anything to add, or point out, it would be appreciated, as many minds are better than one in critical thinking and case evaluation.

[FlashWrogan]

I don't think I could buy greatshells being a fabricated beings, or them being aligned with a specific side. They are a huge part of the worlds ecology (especially if you put chulls in that category). The violet blood seen in the prelude could have easily been some other organism that happens to have the same colored blood.

[Meg]

Meg, thanks for answering my questions. As I am in the middle of my second reading of the book (going at a slower pace) I am sure I will get to the Meg-RY part eventually ;)/>/>

All this speculation on the Chasmfiends/pupating greatshells is leading me to ponder their origin. After looking at the link to the coppermind page on greatshells (chulls are considered greatshells here, but that may or may not be cannon)

You're welcome :-), but I have to quote myself (I'm not doing this normally):

Not this again, Adolin thought. Why was everyone so offended that he didn’t find hunts exciting? “It’s just an oversized chull, Father.”

“These ‘oversized chulls’ grow to fifty feet tall and are capable of crushing even a man in Shardplate.”

TWoK Chapter 12

edit 1:

The chasmfiend towered like a mountain of interlocking carapace the color of dark violet ink. ... While it was vaguely crustacean, this was no bulky, placid chull.

TWoK Chapter 13

I think the description in the book itself is "cannon" enough. And for the Coppermind one can say what is not marked as "theory" or something like this, can be "bought" as given.

We know that soulcasting can transform one type of matter to another, so that type of magic is feasable, if say someone or something changed rock, stone, crystal, etc. into a living being. Also, I believe that Sigzil mentioned a story of a Makabaki woman who used some type of magic to create her children from rocks.

This, for once, hadn't been Sigzil. Renarin brought this story up and Navani told it (TWoK, Chapter 61), it was Parasaphi doing this thing with the seedstones -- which doesn't seem to me to be a Soulcast-thing.

(I am basing this on BS's Eshonai reading, and am aware of a possible spoiler, but honestly this is SA forum not a WoK forum)?

Hmm, at the moment it's a WoK-forum in my understanding. I think it would be better to put spoilerish things in spoiler-tags (there's a discussion about this matter here).

[Martinitram]

@FlashWrogan

I can accept that the greatshells were not fabricated, and that would most likely mean that they are natives of the planet. However, they do seem very rock like. Maybe they are a natural evolution of the planet, and perhaps Cultivation could have something to do with that evolution.

Either way I feel that they were present at the times of the Desolations, if not directly involved than perhaps bystanders that got caught up in the battle.

Maybe the same type of battles happened in the Desolations where both sides fought to either destroy the greatshells for power, or even that the Herlads and co. fought to protect them as they are supposed to have 'said' importance to the ecology of the planet. Hmmm, now theres a thought...

[Martinitram]

@Meg

Hmm, at the moment it's a WoK-forum in my understanding. I think it would be better to put spoilerish things in spoiler-tags (there's a discussion about this matter here).

Heard, I will be sensitive to this issue in the future. Just lazy when it comes to creating spoiler tags, but I will try harder in the future, promise.

I think the description in the book itself is "cannon" enough. And for the Coppermind one can say what is not marked as "theory" or something like this, can be "bought" as given.

OK, ok, I just thought that you were the one who said chulls weren't greatshells in the first place so I was trying to not to sound condescending here to you or anyone else who had that interpretation.

P.S. I hope I didn't get on your bad side, because I think a lot of what you post is intuitive and I agree w/ you on a lot of topics.

[Satsuoni]

Iirc, the distinction is simple. Chulls and smaller are "shelled beasts" ( mentioned in the book maybe once, but still) Particularly large shelled beasts are Greatshells. All have similar body type, hence Adolin calling Chasmfiend an "overgrown chull"

A lot of fauna on Roshar seems crustacean, so I think they are natural enough, though Spren in Greatshells help them to deal with large body mass.

[EDIT] Shellbeasts, not shelled beasts:

Bows were useless for hunting most shellbeasts; slings worked far better.

Greatshells are also called "great-shelled beasts"

The parshmen promise that they will lead me on a hunt for a great-shelled beast they call an ulo mas vara, which my scholars say translates roughly to “Monster of the Chasms.”

Edited March 4, 2013 by Satsuoni