Fullborn V.S. 5th Ideal Windrunners

[therunner]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Windows, doors, gutters, trash cans, street lamps, nails, coins he throws, there are still a lot of objects Fullborn can use to steelpush and ironpull.

What metal in windows? The latches?
And street lamps are not present in small narrow streets you were describing as useful for Fullborn.
Trash cans are free standing, they would move before the Fullborn would, not useful for high speed navigation.

Quote

Pushing on things behind the wall isn't smart, as you do not always know what it is, and nails or other smaller objects will be pushed out and won't provide anchor. I've never considered them as travel anchors.

Yeah, but then you have issue that you either have to stick to wooden buildings, or you have little to push/pull on in between newer cinder block/concrete buildings (since those won't have nails).

Quote

And small streets, corridors and paths between buildings are often curvy, have lots of intersections and sharp turns. Not straight lines.

And they typically lack street lamps, and the sharp turns/curves mean that a lot of metallic objects will be obscured, hence they could not be pushed/pulled on.

Quote

No, I did specify Elendel  

And there are people living there, so sometimes both sides can try to hide among them.

Ok fair.

Quote

Yeah, his from Roshar, 7ft tall, with Rosharian foot bigger than Earth's foot. His head would be as good as a giant arrow floating above him  

Is there some height requirement on Windrunners I did not know about? And 7ft tall is Kaladin in Earth's foots, not in Rosharan feet (in those he is around 6 feet tall).
Since we are in Elendel to give advantage to Fullborn, I might say the Windrunner is quite short Rosharan, standing at only 6 feet Earth feet.

Quote

They are pure, concentrated investiture in the form of physical metal. They don't contain any other elements except for god metal axi. It's not that investiture is converted into matter (via E=mc2) to create a god metal, it's that investiture shares characteristics of both matter (different physical states) and energy (fueling magic) while being separate from both of them. God metals are pure investiure, not matter, but still are physical.

[Citation needed]
We have no evidence of anything you are saying here.

Quote

And because in our Universe both matter and energy can bend spacetime, Investiture can as well, which can be described as mass.

Yeah, we know that, but it has no bearing on the discussion we are having.

Quote

Investiture in F-iron has a clear command to change mass of the Ferring, while simple investiture has not, F-iron likely changes something on spiritual level, strictly related to mass. So while investiture in ironmind has some mass, it's the changes in spirit web that causes ferring's mass to change, not being more invested. I'm not gonna argue what causes the change in mass, and why density stays the same. I mostly agree with you on this (tbf I don't remember now what's going on, so...)

Yeah, and that is completely different case from what I was talking about.

I know F-Iron changes mass, I was just pointing out that that would require changing density by definition, but magic shenanigans conspire for that to not be the case.

Quote

I just explained. Investiture has some mass, in the form of solid god metal it is the densest, under normal conditions, and yet it is still very light. Those are Shardblades, that's why they weigh. Shardblade weighing 1-2 kg would be considerably lower than its oversized sword size suggests, but comparable to a spear, so that spearmen can be not impressed by its mass.

Except the WoB Frustration quoted shows that why Shardblades are light has nothing to do with them being solid Investiture.

IRL full set of plate was at most ~30 kg, so just about ~15-20x the mass of sword.
Shardplate is also solid Investiture, and yet it weights around ~440 kg (100 Rosharan stoneweights, 1 stone = 6.3 kg on earth, so 1 Rosharan stone = 4.4 kg)
And no, Shardplate does not have ~220x times the volume of Shardblade (who are far larger than regular swords), so clearly there is something else going on with Shardblades (and by extension Nightblood) that is making them light (and hence Nightblood heavy).

Quote

What I'm saying here is that Shardblades proves Investiture has mass, but a 6ft wide and funky sword weighs less than a regular sword, so a god metal of that size is very light, lighter than it should be. Liquid investiture would be lighter, and gas would be the lightest (like Stormlight, Breaths or Mists). Water vapor is more than 1000x less dense than liquid water, so I expect a great difference in mass of solid and gaseous investiture contained in the same space, under normal pressure.

Again [Citation needed]. Physical manifestation of Investiture (be it solid, liquid or gas) having mass is not the same as e.g. Investiture in spiritweb, or in Invested objects having mass.
 

Quote

I'm not taking part in F-iron disscusion here. I'm just going wild. Not everything that I say is to prove a point, sometimes I just want to prove you're wrong without making any point  

Then you can make that clear from the start next time?
It can be kind of frustrating trying to talk about something, when the other side of conversation is not even trying to discuss it and are doing their own thing.

Edited March 19, 2023 by therunner

[alder24]

17 minutes ago, therunner said:

What metal in windows? The latches?

Yes, they are constantly being used in Era 1 as anchors.

18 minutes ago, therunner said:

Yeah, but then you have issue that you either have to stick to wooden buildings, or you have little to push/pull on in between newer cinder block/concrete buildings (since those won't have nails).

And they typically lack street lamps, and the sharp turns/curves mean that a lot of metallic objects will be obscured, hence they could not be pushed/pulled on

Or are there buildings which have both stone/brick fundations and partially wooden walls? Fences, gates, signs, electric wires, coins, do we really have to argue about the amount of metal on Elendel streets, when Wax NEVER complained about it??

24 minutes ago, therunner said:

Since we are in Elendel to give advantage to Fullborn, I might say the Windrunner is quite short Rosharan, standing at only 6 feet Earth feet.

Please avrage hight! 
And you know that the "mixing with a crowd" is just one of many options both have? We don't have to disscuss thoroughly every one of them.

27 minutes ago, therunner said:

[Citation needed]
We have no evidence of anything you are saying here.

Here you go

Spoiler

Questioner

So, kind of a support question... The nature of Investiture and metals, is it just solid Investiture that's metal or is all Investiture some kind of state of metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So this gets back into your idea of metal. Do they all represent metal? Well, I'm fascinated by states of matter, if you can't tell, and I'm fascinated by groupings on the periodic table in our world. I am fascinated by how certain things share... properties with one another but not other properties. When I was building the cosmere, I loved this idea of this pure Investiture, this solid state Investiture which looks like metal, but its not a metal that would be on our periodic table, and none of them are, but they share some properties with metals. You look at it and you're like "That's a metal!" But is it? Well it wouldn't go on the periodic table in our world. It's its own thing. 

So yes and no. 

[...]

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Chaos

Is atium Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it--

Chaos

Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle.

Brandon Sanderson

Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness.

The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

Questioner

If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas

Questioner

I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably have disastrous effects. 

Questioner

That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened.

Brandon Sanderson

It hasn't been that. Something else happened.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Spoiler

BlackYeti

Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the Physical Realm? About the different states of matter. What determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I've been reading the bits very carefully, and I haven't noticed much in terms of temperature difference.

Brandon Sanderson

The idea for me working on this was that they transcend-- They permeate everything, right? They permeate all life on all the Realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it's kind of like they make-- they appear there in the various states but-- When you say that you've got the gas, you've got the liquid, you've got the solid: but you've also got inside of you, and inside of that plant, and like-- they're everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it's just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distills, just like water. There's some water in the air, there's some that freezes: that's temperature. But it's not always temperature whether it's in the air, or whether it's falling. Imagine a Spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what's happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that's what you'll get.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

 

35 minutes ago, therunner said:

Except the WoB Frustration quoted shows that why Shardblades are light has nothing to do with them being solid Investiture.

What? How did you get that from this?

Quote

Nightblood is built around the same principles as shardblades, if shardblades were... broken?  I mean he is-- You'll notice dark smoke that goes down rather than light smoke that goes up, and things like this. So, yeah, they are built on the same principles but in some ways opposites.

It only states that Nightblood and Shardblade's weight are from the same property, but opposite in "value".

36 minutes ago, therunner said:

Shardplate is also solid Investiture, and yet it weights around ~440 kg (100 Rosharan stoneweights, 1 stone = 6.3 kg on earth, so 1 Rosharan stone = 4.4 kg)
And no, Shardplate does not have ~220x times the volume of Shardblade (who are far larger than regular swords), so clearly there is something else going on with Shardblades (and by extension Nightblood) that is making them light (and hence Nightblood heavy).

Ohh  And it sounded so good in my head, and Shardplates shattered it all.

38 minutes ago, therunner said:

Again [Citation needed]. Physical manifestation of Investiture (be it solid, liquid or gas) having mass is not the same as e.g. Investiture in spiritweb, or in Invested objects having mass.

Yes, I was talking only about physical manifestations of Investiture, not just about invested objects (which can be invested by physical manifestations of Investiture like Breaths) or spirit web. 

40 minutes ago, therunner said:

Then you can make that clear from the start next time?
It can be kind of frustrating trying to talk about something, when the other side of conversation is not even trying to discuss it and are doing their own thing.

Yeah, sorry, I'm like this sometimes. I just pointed out Nightblood is heavier than expected! Now I have no idea what I was thinking back there, likely it triggered me when you said words "Nightblood", "Shardblade", "light" in the same sentence, and ignore the whole F-iron and mass thing.

[therunner]

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, they are constantly being used in Era 1 as anchors.

Or are there buildings which have both stone/brick fundations and partially wooden walls? Fences, gates, signs, electric wires, coins, do we really have to argue about the amount of metal on Elendel streets, when Wax NEVER complained about it??

Wax also does not navigate narrow streets, and only flies in the open typically using lampposts or cars from what I remember.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Please avrage hight!
And you know that the "mixing with a crowd" is just one of many options both have? We don't have to disscuss thoroughly every one of them.

Alright
Kaladin is repeatadly called 'tall' so someone around 7 feet is tall even on Roshar, hence someone average can be a bit over 6 feet. Still, but won't stand out on Scadrial as sore thumb.

You brought it up, I am just mentioning it is open for both parties
And Windrunner can send spren to search in other places (and then immediately summon them back, so no risk for them doing this).

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Here you go

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So, kind of a support question... The nature of Investiture and metals, is it just solid Investiture that's metal or is all Investiture some kind of state of metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So this gets back into your idea of metal. Do they all represent metal? Well, I'm fascinated by states of matter, if you can't tell, and I'm fascinated by groupings on the periodic table in our world. I am fascinated by how certain things share... properties with one another but not other properties. When I was building the cosmere, I loved this idea of this pure Investiture, this solid state Investiture which looks like metal, but its not a metal that would be on our periodic table, and none of them are, but they share some properties with metals. You look at it and you're like "That's a metal!" But is it? Well it wouldn't go on the periodic table in our world. It's its own thing. 

So yes and no. 

[...]

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Chaos

Is atium Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it--

Chaos

Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle.

Brandon Sanderson

Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness.

The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

Questioner

If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas

Questioner

I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably have disastrous effects. 

Questioner

That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened.

Brandon Sanderson

It hasn't been that. Something else happened.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

BlackYeti

Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the Physical Realm? About the different states of matter. What determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I've been reading the bits very carefully, and I haven't noticed much in terms of temperature difference.

Brandon Sanderson

The idea for me working on this was that they transcend-- They permeate everything, right? They permeate all life on all the Realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it's kind of like they make-- they appear there in the various states but-- When you say that you've got the gas, you've got the liquid, you've got the solid: but you've also got inside of you, and inside of that plant, and like-- they're everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it's just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distills, just like water. There's some water in the air, there's some that freezes: that's temperature. But it's not always temperature whether it's in the air, or whether it's falling. Imagine a Spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what's happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that's what you'll get.

Manchester signing (Aug. 6, 2014)

 

Alright conceded.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

What? How did you get that from this?

It only states that Nightblood and Shardblade's weight are from the same property, but opposite in "value".

Ohh  And it sounded so good in my head, and Shardplates shattered it all.

Combination of two facts

1. The WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7134) states that the ligthness of Shardblades and heaviness of Nightblood are drawn from same principles, only opposite.
2. From books we know that Shardplate is heavy despite being the same Investiture as Shardblades, showing that lightness of Shardblades is not due to innate property of the Investiture making them up.

Hence result is that Shardblades being light has nothing to do with them being solid Investiture.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, I was talking only about physical manifestations of Investiture, not just about invested objects (which can be invested by physical manifestations of Investiture like Breaths) or spirit web.

Ah, and I was primarily focused on discussing Invested objects, not physical manifestation of Investiture.

Quote

Yeah, sorry, I'm like this sometimes. I just pointed out Nightblood is heavier than expected! Now I have no idea what I was thinking back there, likely it triggered me when you said words "Nightblood", "Shardblade", "light" in the same sentence, and ignore the whole F-iron and mass thing.

It is alright, we all get distracted by some stuff.
I got a bit more frustrated then usual yesterday since I had a long train trip behind me, so apologize for being a bit more curt.

[alder24]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Wax also does not navigate narrow streets, and only flies in the open typically using lampposts or cars from what I remember.

Yes, and coins and bullets. But in SoS when chasing Marksman, Wax got distracted by Bleeder, and in the meantime Marksman entered slums and disappeared in narrow streets.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

You brought it up, I am just mentioning it is open for both parties
And Windrunner can send spren to search in other places (and then immediately summon them back, so no risk for them doing this).

It is, he can, but by doing so, he has one pair of eyes less to watch his back.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

Combination of two facts

1. The WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7134) states that the ligthness of Shardblades and heaviness of Nightblood are drawn from same principles, only opposite.
2. From books we know that Shardplate is heavy despite being the same Investiture as Shardblades, showing that lightness of Shardblades is not due to innate property of the Investiture making them up.

Hence result is that Shardblades being light has nothing to do with them being solid Investiture.

Logical reasoning.  But it can be the opposite. Shardblades are light because they are solid Investiture, and Shardplates are not light, despite being solid Investiture, because something else is causing their weight. Not necessarily related to what's causing Nightblood weight. I'm going in circles, but I get it now, so let's agree with this.

Not related to this topic, but Shardblade is a bit more invested than Shardplate, Nightblood is even more invested than Shardblade:

Spoiler

Questioner

I've got a list of various Cosmere bits of metal and I was wondering if you would rank them from like one to ten or just easy to difficult on how hard it would be to steelpush on them. So with one being just a regular coin, ten being like when the Lord Ruler was moving bits of glass on the floor, so like metal inside a person's body.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how strong the Investiture in them is.

[...]

Questioner #2

A Shardblade is [inaudible] actually metal? [metal]-ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. Is Lerasium a metal? Yeah.

Questioner

So that'd be the same for Shardplate too?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardplate and Blade are very hard. Blade is probably gonna be a little harder.

[...]

Questioner

Nightblood? I imagine that being hard.

Brandon Sanderson

Hard, of all the things you've listed, that is going to be the hardest. Far beyond even a Sharblade.

[...]

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

 

4 hours ago, therunner said:

It is alright, we all get distracted by some stuff.
I got a bit more frustrated then usual yesterday since I had a long train trip behind me, so apologize for being a bit more curt.

Nah, it's good. I had fun, even if we both were talking about completely different things.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

I've spent multiple hours writing responses that get deleted when my computer dies or I press "show new posts." So instead of quoting 43, I'm going to reference a few without direct posting.

First, @Tamriel Wolfsbaine, for your explanation. It is a lot worse then the one I pieced together carfully last week, but its this or nothing.

Feurochemists convert some amount of attribute into some amount of investiture, at a greater than linear rate A(x). After converting it to investiture, they send it to the metalmin using B(x) investiture, also greater than linear. When they pull it out, they use B(x) again, and compress it with C(x), and finally convert it back to attribute with D(x). So at the end of the day, if you fill at rate x for the same amount of time you tap at a constant rate, then the attribute you get is D(y-C(y-B(y-B(y))), where y=A(X). A(D(x)) = x if you remove all referenced to a person's power, (if any) and one or more of A, B, and D have power in the formula.

Allomancers pull a small amount of investiture to burn metals. The amount of investiture they can pull is i = 10 +- p, where p is power. Hemalurgists, multimistings, and mistborn have sperate and non-interacting pools. This investiture pulls more investiture through the spiritual realm, which does 2 things. First, an amount E(i) based on the inverse or negative of their power is used to convert the metal into investiture, and the rest, F(i), is used to complete the task set by the metal. Chromium and Aluminum convert metals to kinetic investiture and key kinetic investiture to do nothing (AKA return to the SR), while Durilium and necrosil increase i directly.

When an allomancer burns an invested metal, E(i) increases (I believe only slightly for normal values). If the metal is interactively charged, then the charge is drawn out as the metal is being burnt, and rekeys the investiture. The amount of attribute you get from a metalmind is equivalent to D( f(i) + A(X) - C(A(X)-B(A(X)-B(A(X)))) - G(f(i))), where G(f(i)) is the amount of investiture pulled out to key it.

 

Next, for urban Fullborn vs windrunner, steel/iron is not strictly worse than gravitation. Gravitation turns more in curves, but that can be mitigated with additional investiture. The big downside is the penetration, and to a lesser extent iron projectiles. To get through a wall, a fullborn only taps iron and steelpushes. To get through a wall, a windrunner either needs to: A send a projectile with enough time to get to speed; B Plunge through using healing; C stop and use shardblade; D stop and lash. A competent fullborn can make the hole just large enough for themself at the horizontal position, and can pop through at a moments notice by buzzing it. The windrunner would need to either slow down to maneuver into the hole or get through the wall on it's own, all of which take time.

As for iron projectiles and Reverse lashings, Iron projectiles work perfectly well through walls if you know where the target is, which you do from Tin and Bronze. A reverse lashing cannont sheild prevent both Steel and iron projectiles, Best I can figure is they need 4 to create a forcefield in all directions, spread evenly about their sphere. Possible, but limiting.

 

Finnaly, I need to look into Higgs fields (unless someone would care to explain), but I personally think density literally changes, but doesn't practically change to do shenanigans.

Side note, is it possible for feruchemistry to have "negitive" side attributes? When storing, some of the investiture is used to make side attribute B instead of going to metal, and when tapping side attribute B is converted into investiture to use.

[therunner]

1 minute ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Next, for urban Fullborn vs windrunner, steel/iron is not strictly worse than gravitation. Gravitation turns more in curves, but that can be mitigated with additional investiture.

Gravitation can turn even more forcefully than curves, it just requires more lashings to be applied.
Mistborn are just as affected by G-forces as Windrunners are, and Mistborn have never been shown to start fainting due to acceleration, so Windrunners are capable of generating acceleration greater than Mistborn (outside of Duralumin usage).
Hence, Windrunners can turn more sharply then Mistborn can.

(Using Vin PoV from TFE, single coin can generate at most ~3-4 g's of acceleration, if you are standing directly on it. Windrunner can trivially generate equal acceleration).

Quote

The big downside is the penetration, and to a lesser extent iron projectiles. To get through a wall, a fullborn only taps iron and steelpushes. To get through a wall, a windrunner either needs to: A send a projectile with enough time to get to speed; B Plunge through using healing; C stop and use shardblade; D stop and lash. A competent fullborn can make the hole just large enough for themself at the horizontal position, and can pop through at a moments notice by buzzing it. The windrunner would need to either slow down to maneuver into the hole or get through the wall on it's own, all of which take time.

Good point with 'just' going straight through walls, that is an option open to Fullborn.
Though I think properly shaped 'shardshield' with small blades on the outside could get Windrunner through wall quite easily (though still not exactly comfortably). But it would require experimentation.

Quote

As for iron projectiles and Reverse lashings, Iron projectiles work perfectly well through walls if you know where the target is, which you do from Tin and Bronze.

How? You cannot pull through walls (unless they are wooden), and bronze won't let you pinpoint someone exactly.

Quote

A reverse lashing cannont sheild prevent both Steel and iron projectiles, Best I can figure is they need 4 to create a forcefield in all directions, spread evenly about their sphere. Possible, but limiting.

Yes it can.
Steel/Iron work only in a line from Fullborn to object, so Fullborn can only strike at Windrunner from 2 directions at any single moment.
Reverse Lashing held either to the side, or above Windrunner will then pull objects to it.

And since Windrunner can maneuver better then Fullborn, Fullborn cannot hope to replicate what Kelsier did (not to mention, that was beyond even Vin's skill).

[IlstrawberrySeed]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

Gravitation can turn even more forcefully than curves, it just requires more lashings to be applied.
Mistborn are just as affected by G-forces as Windrunners are, and Mistborn have never been shown to start fainting due to acceleration, so Windrunners are capable of generating acceleration greater than Mistborn (outside of Duralumin usage).
Hence, Windrunners can turn more sharply then Mistborn can.

(Using Vin PoV from TFE, single coin can generate at most ~3-4 g's of acceleration, if you are standing directly on it. Windrunner can trivially generate equal acceleration).

Good point with 'just' going straight through walls, that is an option open to Fullborn.
Though I think properly shaped 'shardshield' with small blades on the outside could get Windrunner through wall quite easily (though still not exactly comfortably). But it would require experimentation.

How? You cannot pull through walls (unless they are wooden), and bronze won't let you pinpoint someone exactly.

Yes it can.
Steel/Iron work only in a line from Fullborn to object, so Fullborn can only strike at Windrunner from 2 directions at any single moment.
Reverse Lashing held either to the side, or above Windrunner will then pull objects to it.

And since Windrunner can maneuver better then Fullborn, Fullborn cannot hope to replicate what Kelsier did (not to mention, that was beyond even Vin's skill).

Like I said, fixed with more investiture. And I would think the metalic arts would protect against G forces more than lashingsdue to how MA's secondary effects work in general. (Doesn't F-iron to speed/slow generate no g-forces?) Windrunners can heal off them, so I personally didn't calculate them. 

That was vin, not a fullborn. Fullborn can increase their power to get more force, and possibly have other tricks up their sleeve, such as investing for controlled D-burns. (Invest X flaxes to D-burn total-X flakes, then uninvest at virtually no cost.)

It sounds silly put that way, but good Idea about the sheild.

Where do you get that? The lines get thinner, but only shardblades and aluminum block them completely. If Wax can see small lines through a wall, then the fullborn could pull things at the windrunner in the other room.

Kal pulled arrows that were going to miss. RL are not computers, they cannot tell what they should pull or shouldn't other than general things, like "propeled by that guy" which would count for things that wouldn't hit. As far as I can tell, the only way to set up a sheild of RL that doesn't allow strays or ricochet shots to hit them, either by effecting them or not effecting them, uses 4 RL. That is assuming equal strength; you can probably get away with 3, or even 2, if one could fine tune the strengths. 1 Might be enough if it was set to orbit around you, but that is a whole level up on lashing algorithoms.

Why? It only takes skill, and since it isn't mussel memory, can even be stored in copper.

[alder24]

47 minutes ago, therunner said:

(Using Vin PoV from TFE, single coin can generate at most ~3-4 g's of acceleration, if you are standing directly on it. Windrunner can trivially generate equal acceleration).

Fullborn can do what Wax does, and reduce his mass drastically to gain speed when flying. A lot of speed. And then lose all of that by tapping F-iron. Windrunner can't maneuver like that.

47 minutes ago, therunner said:

How? You cannot pull through walls (unless they are wooden), and bronze won't let you pinpoint someone exactly.

It does? Vin finding Elend's assasinss? Inquisitor finding Kel when Vin was exiting Canton building at the begginig of TFE?

47 minutes ago, therunner said:

Steel/Iron work only in a line from Fullborn to object, so Fullborn can only strike at Windrunner from 2 directions at any single moment.

Not necessarily. Usually steelpushes and ironpulls are applied to the object's center of mass, but both Wax and Kelsier can push on every point of a metal object. So theoretically Fullborn can push an object by the center to the Windrunner's side, and then push on a side of the object, sending it in an arched way into Windrunner. While it's possible, it's likely very complicated, so it won't be used often.

Edited March 20, 2023 by alder24

[therunner]

34 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Like I said, fixed with more investiture. And I would think the metalic arts would protect against G forces more than lashingsdue to how MA's secondary effects work in general. (Doesn't F-iron to speed/slow generate no g-forces?) Windrunners can heal off them, so I personally didn't calculate them.

While pewter does protect body a bit (on regular burn), it would be nothing compared to healing any negative effects immediately (holding Stormlight).

F-Iron somehow changes speed to conserve momentum, but no notes about it creating or not G-forces. And since literal gravitation somehow causes G-forces, I would expect F-Iron should too.

36 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

That was vin, not a fullborn. Fullborn can increase their power to get more force, and possibly have other tricks up their sleeve, such as investing for controlled D-burns. (Invest X flaxes to D-burn total-X flakes, then uninvest at virtually no cost.)

Not confirmed if that is actually possible.
What do you mean by investing for controlled D-burn?

Quote

It sounds silly put that way, but good Idea about the sheild.

Thanks

Quote

Where do you get that? The lines get thinner, but only shardblades and aluminum block them completely. If Wax can see small lines through a wall, then the fullborn could pull things at the windrunner in the other room.

Sorry, I did not mean they block them completely, only that weakend lines will mean they cannot effectively use it as a weapons.

Quote

Kal pulled arrows that were going to miss. RL are not computers, they cannot tell what they should pull or shouldn't other than general things, like "propeled by that guy" which would count for things that wouldn't hit. As far as I can tell, the only way to set up a sheild of RL that doesn't allow strays or ricochet shots to hit them, either by effecting them or not effecting them, uses 4 RL. That is assuming equal strength; you can probably get away with 3, or even 2, if one could fine tune the strengths. 1 Might be enough if it was set to orbit around you, but that is a whole level up on lashing algorithoms.

RL pulls strongly enough to impart hundreds of meters per second to objects (apparently). So I don't see how ricochets would happen.
And the Intent seems to be quite crucial, so Intent of 'metallic objects nearby' is sufficient, and they will all get dragged to RL point exactly, with no ricochets.

Quote

Why? It only takes skill, and since it isn't mussel memory, can even be stored in copper.

If we take skills demonstrated by only one person ever, then why not assume that Windrunner can show the dodging and fighting skills of Kaladin in pit in WoR?

11 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Fullborn can do what Wax does, and reduce his mass drastically to gain speed when flying. A lot of speed. And then lose all of that by tapping F-iron. Windrunner can't maneuver like that.

Which should impart a lot of g-forces to Fullborn. Windrunner could maneuver like that, though it might be cost prohibitive.
Windrunner can literally maneuver in any way they want, the limiting factors being only Stormlight available (which should be non-issue considering stuff in books) and G-forces (which will affect both him and Fullborn equally).

Quote

It does? Vin finding Elend's assasinss? Inquisitor finding Kel when Vin was exiting Canton building at the begginig of TFE?

It does not let you pin point them with ~10-20cm precision required to push/pull objects into them.
It tells you general location (e.g. +- meter), which is enough to find someone who is hiding, not no-scope them.

Quote

Not necessarily. Usually steelpushes and ironpulls are applied to the object's center of mass, but both Wax and Kelsier can push on every point of a metal object. So theoretically Fullborn can push an object by the center to the Windrunner's side, and then push on a side of the object, sending it in an arched way into Windrunner. While it's possible, it's likely very complicated, so it won't be used often.

Wax does it exactly twice (if I remember right) and it took a lot of mental strain/focus.
Kelsier did not push on all points of objects. He moved around and used steel/iron in quick conjuction to keep them all moving and in air.

And pushing on different points of metallic objects still won't let it move in any other direction then directly away from Fullborn, at most it will start rotating in air. Your example with arching won't work, since the force is always acting on line going through object and Fullborn.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

How? You cannot pull through walls (unless they are wooden), and bronze won't let you pinpoint someone exactly.

I keep reading thoughts about not being able to push or pull through certain objects and people.  

How did Vin kill all of those people with iron and steel using a single belt buckle if she was unable to yoink on the metal once it passed through a body?  

 

[StanLemon]

5 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I keep reading thoughts about not being able to push or pull through certain objects and people.  

How did Vin kill all of those people with iron and steel using a single belt buckle if she was unable to yoink on the metal once it passed through a body?  

 

You can Pull/Push on a metal that's on the other side of a person, just not in a person. Kelsier kills a hazekiller by Pulling on a paperweight behind them 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

You can Pull/Push on a metal that's on the other side of a person, just not in a person. Kelsier kills a hazekiller by Pulling on a paperweight behind them 

That's what I thought.  The strat of throw a handful of projectiles and then rip them back and forth as fast as possible through your enemy is perfectly viable. 

Won't do much vs someone in plate (though you could easily ramp your weight far higher than the radiant even in full plate)

[StanLemon]

16 hours ago, therunner said:

Wax does it exactly twice (if I remember right) and it took a lot of mental strain/focus.
Kelsier did not push on all points of objects. He moved around and used steel/iron in quick conjuction to keep them all moving and in air.

This isn't the case, Wax merely needed to change how he perceived the metal. There is no indication that it was difficult.

Kelsier very much could Push/Pull on any part of the metal, for example he simultaneously Pulled on one end of a bar and Pushed on the other to cause it to spin in the air.

Quote

Kelsier grabbed the bars, flaring both steel and iron, Pushing against one tip of each bar and Pulling against the opposite tip. The bars lurched in the air, immediately beginning to spin like furious, lunatic windmills. Most of the flying arrows were sprayed to the side by the spinning rods of iron

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by StanLemon

[therunner]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This isn't the case, Wax merely needed to change how he perceived the metal. There is no indication that it was difficult.

If so, why does he not do it repeatedly? 
I recall only two incidents (one when he was young, and second in BoM if I recall?).
 

Quote

Kelsier very much could Push/Pull on any part of the metal, for example he simultaneously Pulled on one end of a bar and Pushed on the other to cause it to spin in the air.

Ah, I stand corrected then. Thank you.

However, that does not change the fact, that pushing/pulling on different parts of metal will not let Fullborn 'bank' or curve the metal pieces (because of linearity of the forces), for that Fullborn has to move themselves.

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

If so, why does he not do it repeatedly? 
I recall only two incidents (one when he was young, and second in BoM if I recall?).
 

It's almost certainly because of basic perception. When a person thinks "bullet" they generally think of the whole bullet like Wax did and it wasn't until Wax thought of the parts of the bullet that the lines split. Iirc when Kelsier found Straff's hidden safe he only saw one line going to the safe and not any going to the tumblers because they were part of the overall the perception of a "safe." So it's probably just simpler overall to Push on the center of mass

Spoiler

In TLM Wax's narration even seems to go as far to say that most Allomancers do stop at face value and not think about all the ways there are more metal making up the metal objects.

Quote

Ah, I stand corrected then. Thank you.

However, that does not change the fact, that pushing/pulling on different parts of metal will not let Fullborn 'bank' or curve the metal pieces (because of linearity of the forces), for that Fullborn has to move themselves.

If you Push on different parts simultaneously at different strengths it should curve, a curve that would be more controllable with properly modulated Pulls. That's admittedly way beyond the skill of most Allomancers, maybe even beyond Kelsier's skill with Steel and Iron. I would however imagine that Compounded stores of Feruchemical Zinc and Electrum would go a long way to developing the skill

Edited March 21, 2023 by StanLemon

[therunner]

38 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

It's almost certainly because of basic perception. When a person thinks "bullet" they generally think of the whole bullet like Wax did and it wasn't until Wax thought of the parts of the bullet that the lines split. Iirc when Kelsier found Straff's hidden safe he only saw one line going to the safe and not any going to the tumblers because they were part of the overall the perception of a "safe." So it's probably just simpler overall to Push on the center of mass

So you sort of need to trick yourself into thinking about it as not one object but multiple ones?

39 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

If you Push on different parts simultaneously at different strengths it should curve, a curve that would be more controllable with properly modulated Pulls. That's admittedly way beyond the skill of most Allomancers, maybe even beyond Kelsier's skill with Steel and Iron. I would however imagine that Compounded stores of Feruchemical Zinc and Electrum would go a long way to developing the skill

No it will not curve.
The forces still go just to/from Fullborn, there is no way to create any sideways montion (with respect to Fullborn), without Fullborn moving themselves.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

17 hours ago, therunner said:

While pewter does protect body a bit (on regular burn), it would be nothing compared to healing any negative effects immediately (holding Stormlight).

F-Iron somehow changes speed to conserve momentum, but no notes about it creating or not G-forces. And since literal gravitation somehow causes G-forces, I would expect F-Iron should too.

Not confirmed if that is actually possible.
What do you mean by investing for controlled D-burn?

Thanks

Sorry, I did not mean they block them completely, only that weakend lines will mean they cannot effectively use it as a weapons.

RL pulls strongly enough to impart hundreds of meters per second to objects (apparently). So I don't see how ricochets would happen.
And the Intent seems to be quite crucial, so Intent of 'metallic objects nearby' is sufficient, and they will all get dragged to RL point exactly, with no ricochets.

If we take skills demonstrated by only one person ever, then why not assume that Windrunner can show the dodging and fighting skills of Kaladin in pit in WoR?

Which should impart a lot of g-forces to Fullborn. Windrunner could maneuver like that, though it might be cost prohibitive.
Windrunner can literally maneuver in any way they want, the limiting factors being only Stormlight available (which should be non-issue considering stuff in books) and G-forces (which will affect both him and Fullborn equally).

It does not let you pin point them with ~10-20cm precision required to push/pull objects into them.
It tells you general location (e.g. +- meter), which is enough to find someone who is hiding, not no-scope them.

Wax does it exactly twice (if I remember right) and it took a lot of mental strain/focus.
Kelsier did not push on all points of objects. He moved around and used steel/iron in quick conjuction to keep them all moving and in air.

And pushing on different points of metallic objects still won't let it move in any other direction then directly away from Fullborn, at most it will start rotating in air. Your example with arching won't work, since the force is always acting on line going through object and Fullborn.

I was not refering to pewter, I was refering to A-steel/iron and F-iron. I'm not sure if allomancy has the same protections built in as feruchemistry, but if you use F-iron for slowing and speeding, then no/low G-forces apply. G-forces come from force changes if I understand correctly, and F-iron speed changes don't change the force.

Gravitation causes G-forces due to some combination things all related to a force being applied. No force is applied in F-iron.

I thought there was a WoB saying that compounding (general) can allow one to increase their allomantic power. It could be durilium compounding, or a combanation of metals. The only way I can see this being unviable if it's some shard or shard alloy compounding.

If you store .001 seconds of attribute in a, ex steel, flake, then if you D-burn, ex steel, then you won't burn the invested flakes, and then you can just tap the flakes.

Of course.

For a misting or mistborn? Sure. Some halfborn or multi-mistings/multi-ferrings? Sure. Fullborn? Doubt. Even if they cannot use feruchemistry to up their base allomantic strength, they can use connection to strengthen those lines (or was that a theory?). 

Either it doesn't apply to ricochet shots, and the ricochet shots can hit, or it applies to shots that will be RL into the radiant. Either radiant needs multiple RL, they need to move it consistently, or they need to be prepared for RLed projectiles.

I personally wouldn't use it, to week to RL, but the point stands that it is possible. I personally wasn't considering anything less for dodging.

G-forces shouldn't apply to mistborn nearly as much as radiant. Radiant can heal it. Therefore G-forces are a non-factor in this fight.

Do you need that precise? Pull a couch, a desk, a cooler, a sink. And C-tin lets you pinpoint them. Almost better than nalatium. Better with the precognitive effects granted by the fullborn's kit, and bronze can be used for longer distance pinpointing in some circumstances.

F-zink hand waves that. And even if spinning is all that's possible, not arcing, pulling and pushing 2 objects together, if you spin one you get it to shoot off in a direction. Similar to billiard's spin, or that one level in rise up.

Arcing isn't required.

[StanLemon]

2 minutes ago, therunner said:

So you sort of need to trick yourself into thinking about it as not one object but multiple ones?

Yeah that seems to be the case from what we get from Wax's pov

 

[therunner]

48 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I was not refering to pewter, I was refering to A-steel/iron and F-iron. I'm not sure if allomancy has the same protections built in as feruchemistry, but if you use F-iron for slowing and speeding, then no/low G-forces apply. G-forces come from force changes if I understand correctly, and F-iron speed changes don't change the force.

Gravitation causes G-forces due to some combination things all related to a force being applied. No force is applied in F-iron.

Allomancy does not have any 'in-built' protections, so you can kill yourself with it.
Also, while F-Iron does not impart external force, it does lead to change in speed, which reader expects leads to g-forces (this is the rational Brandon gave for Lashing causing g-forces).

Surge of Gravitation should not cause G-Forces, since G-forces come from uneven acceleration, but gravitation always accelerates everything equally. Brandon acknowledges that this is only due to reader expectation.

So if literally the one force which would not lead to g-forces still causes them, F-Iron should too by all rights.

48 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

I thought there was a WoB saying that compounding (general) can allow one to increase their allomantic power. It could be durilium compounding, or a combanation of metals. The only way I can see this being unviable if it's some shard or shard alloy compounding.

There is, though since then he RAFO'ed what Nicrosil compounding does (which would be the one that could do it).
Also, since then he 'retconned' that TLR's allomantic strength was not through Lerasium, or compounding, but because he made himself Mistborn through direct manipulation using power of the Well.
 

Quote

If you store .001 seconds of attribute in a, ex steel, flake, then if you D-burn, ex steel, then you won't burn the invested flakes, and then you can just tap the flakes.

Interesting thought, would probably work, though it would require that the flakes are large enough to be used as metalminds (due to thresholds), and a lot of juggling on the fly.

Quote

For a misting or mistborn? Sure. Some halfborn or multi-mistings/multi-ferrings? Sure. Fullborn? Doubt. Even if they cannot use feruchemistry to up their base allomantic strength, they can use connection to strengthen those lines (or was that a theory?). 

Mistborn, Misting, Halfborn, whatever, for all of them metals still do the same things, e.g. weaker lines mean they cannot push/pull on the metals as well.
Would F-Duralumin allow for Connection manipulation to help here? Who knows.

Quote

Either it doesn't apply to ricochet shots, and the ricochet shots can hit, or it applies to shots that will be RL into the radiant. Either radiant needs multiple RL, they need to move it consistently, or they need to be prepared for RLed projectiles.

My point is that the RL pull is so strong, that potential missing shots are pulled directly to it. And it happens so fast, that they are not yet on the level of Radiant, so RL won't turn miss into hit.

Quote

G-forces shouldn't apply to mistborn nearly as much as radiant. Radiant can heal it. Therefore G-forces are a non-factor in this fight.

Why?
The only tool that could help with G-Forces is A-pewter, however Stormlight also provides many of the benefits of it and heals damage as it happens.
Radiant should be much more resistant to G-Forces than Mistborn (Fullborn is another matter).

Quote

Do you need that precise? Pull a couch, a desk, a cooler, a sink. And C-tin lets you pinpoint them. Almost better than nalatium. Better with the precognitive effects granted by the fullborn's kit, and bronze can be used for longer distance pinpointing in some circumstances.

How does Tin let you pin point them? They are on the other side of the wall, you don't have senses for that.

And you don't know what you are pulling on, since you cannot see it.

Quote

F-zink hand waves that. And even if spinning is all that's possible, not arcing, pulling and pushing 2 objects together, if you spin one you get it to shoot off in a direction. Similar to billiard's spin, or that one level in rise up.

And while Fullborn is doing its best to set this up, Windrunner is just flying away.
 

[IlstrawberrySeed]

19 minutes ago, therunner said:

Allomancy does not have any 'in-built' protections, so you can kill yourself with it.
Also, while F-Iron does not impart external force, it does lead to change in speed, which reader expects leads to g-forces (this is the rational Brandon gave for Lashing causing g-forces).

Surge of Gravitation should not cause G-Forces, since G-forces come from uneven acceleration, but gravitation always accelerates everything equally. Brandon acknowledges that this is only due to reader expectation.

So if literally the one force which would not lead to g-forces still causes them, F-Iron should too by all rights.

There is, though since then he RAFO'ed what Nicrosil compounding does (which would be the one that could do it).
Also, since then he 'retconned' that TLR's allomantic strength was not through Lerasium, or compounding, but because he made himself Mistborn through direct manipulation using power of the Well.
 

Interesting thought, would probably work, though it would require that the flakes are large enough to be used as metalminds (due to thresholds), and a lot of juggling on the fly.

Mistborn, Misting, Halfborn, whatever, for all of them metals still do the same things, e.g. weaker lines mean they cannot push/pull on the metals as well.
Would F-Duralumin allow for Connection manipulation to help here? Who knows.

My point is that the RL pull is so strong, that potential missing shots are pulled directly to it. And it happens so fast, that they are not yet on the level of Radiant, so RL won't turn miss into hit.

Why?
The only tool that could help with G-Forces is A-pewter, however Stormlight also provides many of the benefits of it and heals damage as it happens.
Radiant should be much more resistant to G-Forces than Mistborn (Fullborn is another matter).

How does Tin let you pin point them? They are on the other side of the wall, you don't have senses for that.

And you don't know what you are pulling on, since you cannot see it.

And while Fullborn is doing its best to set this up, Windrunner is just flying away.
 

Brandon came up with that rational after he wrote it and found out it needs a rational. Also, reader expectations aren't an issue when it doesn't come up in the books.

Really? So if you Lash yourself down and apply another 2 lashing to the right without overriding the first, there shouldn't be g forces?

Why not connection? It's theorized that's what lerasium does. The one I am remembering (possibly incorrectly) doesn't mention Rashek. I found out today that he was retconned from lerasium to well instead of allways being a well mistborn.

I doubt that there is something large enough to matter about D-burning and small enough to not be a metalmind, but yes, technically an issue. Thanks.

Strongest one has strongest lines and most effective pulls. Fullborn can increase strength as previously mentioned (he retconed Rashek, but he didn't retcon the possibility, right?) will be strongest, and be able to use them through the walls. Heck, even if they need to C-tin with steelsight to see them, they're strong enough to pull something and do damage.

My point is if RL kicks in to linearity after X meters to the mistborn, then iron can pull metals X metals past linearity of the RL Radiant. Not steelpushing, that's useless agaisnt RL. Ironpulling is useful.

I meant fullborn - f-steel without using healing. Radiant can heal the G-forces, Fullborn shouldn't have G-forces.

Read Spook's PoV Minute sounds and "tremmorsence" are achieved at high sensitivity. It can be achieved without the danger using C-tin. And they get BoM level steelsight from C-tin. Pinpointing them is not hard. I'm honestly surprised the argument went in the direction of "that doesn't work" instead of "radiant won't get in that situation." (comes back after finishing reading your post) 

Possibly. Possibly not, using C-steelsight.

How come running is sufficient for windunner, but not for mistborn or fullborn in these fights?

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, therunner said:

No it will not curve.
The forces still go just to/from Fullborn, there is no way to create any sideways montion (with respect to Fullborn), without Fullborn moving themselves.

I don't understand why it wouldn't. 

Relative to the object as a whole forces would be applied at different angles if you are Pushing on different parts of the metal with different strength Pushes. Like if you had a metal bar that had its center of mass in front of your center that you are Pushing from, whether you Push directly at the center of mass or at both ends with equal force it will go directly away from you as the angles of force the two ends of the bar experience will cancel each other out. 

But if you Push on one end twice as hard as the other end, the angle of force will only be partially cancelled out, so the whole bar should start moving that direction. 

[therunner]

1 hour ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Brandon came up with that rational after he wrote it and found out it needs a rational. Also, reader expectations aren't an issue when it doesn't come up in the books.

No, he came up with it while writing a book, in one WoB he talks about how it was added it to match reader expectations.

Quote

Really? So if you Lash yourself down and apply another 2 lashing to the right without overriding the first, there shouldn't be g forces?

Yup, they would just get added up (unless you found a way to lash only part of yourself, which is possible, similar to the push/pull on part of object trick).

Apply thousands of lashings to yourself, and if it acted like gravitation does IRL, Windrunner would not care. 1 Lashing or Million, it would make no difference to them (outside of acceleration).

Quote

Why not connection? It's theorized that's what lerasium does. The one I am remembering (possibly incorrectly) doesn't mention Rashek. I found out today that he was retconned from lerasium to well instead of allways being a well mistborn.

It is theorized, however that does not make it fact.
Also, we don't know what kinds of Connection can be stored with F-Duralumin, and in what way. For all we know it is ability to form certain kinds of connections, or just connections in general.

Quote

I doubt that there is something large enough to matter about D-burning and small enough to not be a metalmind, but yes, technically an issue. Thanks.

Happy to help.

Quote

Strongest one has strongest lines and most effective pulls. Fullborn can increase strength as previously mentioned (he retconed Rashek, but he didn't retcon the possibility, right?) will be strongest, and be able to use them through the walls. Heck, even if they need to C-tin with steelsight to see them, they're strong enough to pull something and do damage.

C-tin steelsight will allow you to see the metal, but will not let you push on it more strongly.
Steelsight let's you see all sorts of things you cannot push on.

Quote

My point is if RL kicks in to linearity after X meters to the mistborn, then iron can pull metals X metals past linearity of the RL Radiant. Not steelpushing, that's useless agaisnt RL. Ironpulling is useful.

What?
To RL it makes no difference if it is pushing into it from from, or pulling into it from back.

Quote

I meant fullborn - f-steel without using healing. Radiant can heal the G-forces, Fullborn shouldn't have G-forces.

Both have G-forces, there really is no reason why not.

Quote

Read Spook's PoV Minute sounds and "tremmorsence" are achieved at high sensitivity. It can be achieved without the danger using C-tin. And they get BoM level steelsight from C-tin. Pinpointing them is not hard. I'm honestly surprised the argument went in the direction of "that doesn't work" instead of "radiant won't get in that situation." (comes back after finishing reading your post) 

That required savantism, not just A-tin.

Quote

How come running is sufficient for windunner, but not for mistborn or fullborn in these fights?

This is not running away, setting up steel/iron to steer something into windrunner is more complicated then windrunner simply flying away 1 meter.
Kelsier pulled it off because the Inquisitor was caught off-guard, and apparently not very skilled in maneuvering.

If Fullborn is somehow skilled enough with steel/iron as Kelsier, with F-Iron more then Wax (who never uses it to maneuver and had over 20 years of practice), with A-Tin as Spook, with A-bronze as someone focusing on that metal, then Windrunner (who has to practice with only 3 powers instead of 32, and does not have to spend time to Compound) is going to be skilled enough to dodge steel/iron, or use RL to render it ineffective.

It feels a bit disingenuous to assume that somehow Fullborn is master of all powers, even though we have been explicitly told in the very first Mistborn book that Mistings are the ones who are typically truly skilled in metals, because they can focus on them, while Mistborn are strong because of the interaction and versatility. Fullborn should be even less 'skilled' then Mistborn, because they have twice as many powers to juggle and to learn.

17 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I don't understand why it wouldn't. 

Relative to the object as a whole forces would be applied at different angles if you are Pushing on different parts of the metal with different strength Pushes. Like if you had a metal bar that had its center of mass in front of your center that you are Pushing from, whether you Push directly at the center of mass or at both ends with equal force it will go directly away from you as the angles of force the two ends of the bar experience will cancel each other out. 

But if you Push on one end twice as hard as the other end, the angle of force will only be partially cancelled out, so the whole bar should start moving that direction. 

It might get you some acceleration, but it will be fractions of the push/pull strength, basically linear in separation of the points in which the forces act and with additional factor that will grow with the distance between Fullborn and object. And it won't work in all positions only some.
And the forces will cause the object to rotate so that the part you are pushing is away from you, and the pulled one is pointing to you, which will be diminishing the force as it is happening.

So you will get fraction of the push strength, and only for a short amount of time before the objects aligns. Not useful for attacking.
 

Edited March 21, 2023 by therunner

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

It might get you some acceleration, but it will be fractions of the push/pull strength, basically linear in separation of the points in which the forces act and with additional factor that will grow with the distance between Fullborn and object. And it won't work in all positions only some.
And the forces will cause the object to rotate so that the part you are pushing is away from you, and the pulled one is pointing to you, which will be diminishing the force as it is happening.

So you will get fraction of the push strength, and only for a short amount of time before the objects aligns. Not useful for attacking.

I'm thinking we have a miscommunication here. What it seems like you are picturing I'm saying is different than what I'm trying to say.

Let's try this again, you are an Allomancer with a bar that's center of mass is directly in front of you. Each end of the bar is a 45° from your center. You apply twice the strength of the Push to one end than the other. Both ends are still being Pushed away from you. The center of mass of the bar should end up moving about 22.5° from its starting position away from you in the direction that had the greater Push. And now that the bar has moved, the angles of the two ends has changed meaning the angle the center of mass gets steeper causing the flight path of the bar to curve. Is that not what would happen?

Edited March 21, 2023 by StanLemon

[therunner]

18 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I'm thinking we have a miscommunication here. What it seems like you are picturing I'm saying is different than what I'm trying to say.

Let's try this again, you are an Allomancer with a bar that's center of mass is directly in front of you. Each end of the bar is a 45° from your center. You apply twice the strength of the Push to one end than the other. Both ends are still being Pushed away from you. The center of mass of the bar should end up moving about 22.5° from its starting position in the direction that had the greater Push. And now that the bar has moved, the angles of the two ends has changed meaning the angle the center of mass gets steeper causing the flight path of the bar to curve. Is that not what would happen?

Ah, I see. I think it ends up being mostly the same though, however in your variation you don't get cancelling of the forces (since you are pushing on both), but it is also only applicable when the objects is closer to you then its linear dimensions (because if it is further away, the vectors will be too similar to produce effect).
I think you would end up with relatively gradual slope, that would end up approaching just line, as the object is far enough (i.e. distance >> size of object).

It still retains the issue that the resulting force is proportional to the size of the object (if you push on extreme ends) and also proportional to inverse of distance.

Edit: And thinking about it a bit more, it would again be only applicable if you have the right object, appropriately positioned with respect to Windrunner already. All the Windrunner have to do to avoid strike like this is move away from the plane of the object/forces.

Edited March 21, 2023 by therunner

[IlstrawberrySeed]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

No, he came up with it while writing a book, in one WoB he talks about how it was added it to match reader expectations.

Yup, they would just get added up (unless you found a way to lash only part of yourself, which is possible, similar to the push/pull on part of object trick).

Apply thousands of lashings to yourself, and if it acted like gravitation does IRL, Windrunner would not care. 1 Lashing or Million, it would make no difference to them (outside of acceleration).

It is theorized, however that does not make it fact.
Also, we don't know what kinds of Connection can be stored with F-Duralumin, and in what way. For all we know it is ability to form certain kinds of connections, or just connections in general.

Happy to help.

C-tin steelsight will allow you to see the metal, but will not let you push on it more strongly.
Steelsight let's you see all sorts of things you cannot push on.

What?
To RL it makes no difference if it is pushing into it from from, or pulling into it from back.

Both have G-forces, there really is no reason why not.

That required savantism, not just A-tin.

This is not running away, setting up steel/iron to steer something into windrunner is more complicated then windrunner simply flying away 1 meter.
Kelsier pulled it off because the Inquisitor was caught off-guard, and apparently not very skilled in maneuvering.

If Fullborn is somehow skilled enough with steel/iron as Kelsier, with F-Iron more then Wax (who never uses it to maneuver and had over 20 years of practice), with A-Tin as Spook, with A-bronze as someone focusing on that metal, then Windrunner (who has to practice with only 3 powers instead of 32, and does not have to spend time to Compound) is going to be skilled enough to dodge steel/iron, or use RL to render it ineffective.

It feels a bit disingenuous to assume that somehow Fullborn is master of all powers, even though we have been explicitly told in the very first Mistborn book that Mistings are the ones who are typically truly skilled in metals, because they can focus on them, while Mistborn are strong because of the interaction and versatility. Fullborn should be even less 'skilled' then Mistborn, because they have twice as many powers to juggle and to learn.

It might get you some acceleration, but it will be fractions of the push/pull strength, basically linear in separation of the points in which the forces act and with additional factor that will grow with the distance between Fullborn and object. And it won't work in all positions only some.
And the forces will cause the object to rotate so that the part you are pushing is away from you, and the pulled one is pointing to you, which will be diminishing the force as it is happening.

So you will get fraction of the push strength, and only for a short amount of time before the objects aligns. Not useful for attacking.
 

Really?

Intresting.

True.

No, but the force cannot be stronger than the sight. I doubt that the wall blocks the force near as much as the sight.

I'm trying to talk in 2d, but that's not working. I'll get something to you, if not here, then in my next post.

G-forces shouldn't apply to either of them for slightly different reasons, but do to one. I really doubt it applies to the other, but it's basically a non-issue for both parties anyway, is it not?

C-tin is much better than F-tin or A-tin.

If the fullborn sits in a building, waiting for the windrunner, and the windrunner refuses to enter, the fullborn wins eventually.

I don't think that is unreasonable at all if it were that simple. Dodging and RL have their own issues. Used together, probably enough in a white room, but it isn't in a white room.

Not all powers. Only normal levels of mastery for steel, iron, and F-chromium; higher skill levels for F-zink, Electrum, F-tin, F-gold, and F-iron; and very basic understandings of bronze. I probably missed 2, but even then is only 9 they even need to understand. You don't need Kel levels of steel/iron, just enough to trigger RL or move and push/pull through walls. Healing might not take higher skill levels. Electrum and Zink are the 2 main ones needed to have fine control over, seconded by tin. Kel was average skill (or better) in 2(?) years, and had 8 that he needed to have at least regular mastery of, and got to higher levels with 2. If that is what's required, another 3 years gets your other higher skill levels, and lets toss in 2 others in case of distraction by unneeded powers. That's seven years. If compounding takes a year to learn, (I believe it only took so long for inquisitors due to discovering the method, not literal difficulty learning, so a month or 2,) then thats only 8 years. If we give them 5 years before they start, and another 8 due to distractions of regular life and for practicing the combos, then that puts it at 21. After that, it's compounding and extra training. Kal has had a few years to practice, and isn't much compared with our theoretical for windrunners without his special shenanigans.