Hemalurgy and Compounding

[IlstrawberrySeed]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

The Hemalurgist has 2 identities, one of his own, the second one from his spike, where his power comes from. I think this is what messes up with his compounding. Simply burning an unkeyed metalmind won't work. If he were to burn his own metalmind, it's still in conflict with spike's identity or his own. He would need to blank the identity of the spike. All of this is very speculative for now.

 

We know that separate hemalurgic spikes and users don't interfere with unkeyed metalminds, though we don't know which combanation of natural/hemalurgic aluminum and natural/hemalurgic other was used. Burning a metalmind should have the same rules as tapping as far as identity is concerned.

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Burning a metalmind should have the same rules as tapping as far as identity is concerned.

No, because Hemalurgy and Ruin is actively repressed by Harmony.

[Isilel]

46 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

 Burning a metalmind should have the same rules as tapping as far as identity is concerned.

Maybe there are still traces of foreign Identity even in unkeyed metalminds. Not enough to stop other people from tapping them, but enough to prevent amplification effect when they are burned, for example. So that  you'd get out only as much as was stored in them and no more. Which means that  storage process would remain slow and laborious. Or the rules aren't the same - why should they be? and Feruchemy is somewhat less restrictive re: Identity, while the traces are enough to prevent accessing feruchemical power via burning at all.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 5/12/2023 at 3:06 PM, alder24 said:

No, because Hemalurgy and Ruin is actively repressed by Harmony.

That is a separate effect, not due to the underlying rules of the magic.

23 hours ago, Isilel said:

Maybe there are still traces of foreign Identity even in unkeyed metalminds. Not enough to stop other people from tapping them, but enough to prevent amplification effect when they are burned, for example. So that  you'd get out only as much as was stored in them and no more. Which means that  storage process would remain slow and laborious. Or the rules aren't the same - why should they be? and Feruchemy is somewhat less restrictive re: Identity, while the traces are enough to prevent accessing feruchemical power via burning at all.

I highly doubt that. If it worked that way, then someone should be able to contaminate another's metalmind identity enough to tap it by simply filling it enough, or perhaps it would contaminate it such that neither could tap.

[alder24]

13 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

That is a separate effect, not due to the underlying rules of the magic.

But you want to compound via Hemalurgy, that's an issue. Plus Feruchemy is both from Ruin and Preservation - Ruin's subservient status might matter in case of compounding. And as Preservation in Era 1 proved, rules can be changed.

[IlstrawberrySeed]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

But you want to compound via Hemalurgy, that's an issue. Plus Feruchemy is both from Ruin and Preservation - Ruin's subservient status might matter in case of compounding. And as Preservation in Era 1 proved, rules can be changed.

It may be an issue, but a seperate effect. I personally think the highest (lowest?) cause is the identity, and if Sazed's actions/views have anything to do with it, cause the identity issue. And what rules did Leras change? The 16 metal thing was a human category / perception thing, not a literal change.

[alder24]

49 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

And what rules did Leras change? The 16 metal thing was a human category / perception thing, not a literal change.

That was a change Leras did - he switched 2 based metals for Atium and Malatium to make people into Mistings of those but preserving the number 16, so the people can recognise that something unnatural is happening. 

Spoiler

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

Spoiler

little wilson (paraphrased)

I saw Brandon at a book signing back in mid-December, and I asked him about the 16 percent deal. He said that Preservation replaced the real External Temporal Metals with Atium and Malatium (at least I'm assuming Malatium, but he didn't mention that specifically. He only said Atium). So not-Cerrobend and Cadmium weren't counted in the 16%. Nicrosil and Chromium, on the other hand, were. So there are Chromium and Nicrosil mistings running around, not knowing that they're mistings.

TWG Posts (Jan. 20, 2009)

 

[Isilel]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

That was a change Leras did - he switched 2 based metals for Atium and Malatium to make people into Mistings of those but preserving the number 16, so the people can recognise that something unnatural is happening.

I am pretty certain that this is no longer the case, since Sanderson now wants the godmetals to work differently. But he didn't yet canonically finalize the new system.

 

14 hours ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

If it worked that way, then someone should be able to contaminate another's metalmind identity enough to tap it by simply filling it enough, or perhaps it would contaminate it such that neither could tap.

I am not entirely sure what you mean here. One cannot "contaminate" somebody else's storage. If Wayne, after tapping some of the health from that unkeyed metalmind of Kelesina's, decided to store in it, he would have just created a second pool of health in the same chunk of gold, one that only he could use. While any Bloodmaker would have still been able to tap the unkeyed portion remaining. 

I suggest that one can't 100% store Identity, though, that even in unkeyed metalminds there are enough traces to prevent accessing feruchemical power via burning the storage. Or maybe it just precludes the amplification effect that natural Twinborn compounders and Marsh get.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

I am pretty certain that this is no longer the case, since Sanderson now wants the godmetals to work differently. But he didn't yet canonically finalize the new system.

It's still the case. Officially it wasn't Atium but Atium-electrum alloy, and Malatium is Atium-gold alloy. Pure Atium alone is burnable by everyone, but not Atium alloys. And the change was already done before HoA.

Spoiler

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages.
General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021)

 

Spoiler

/u/AAKS_

My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that Lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are mistings/mistborn) but Atium can't.

His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an Atium/Electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure Atium looks like or does when used in any magic.

Peter Ahlstrom

We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively?

Peter Ahlstrom

The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume.

LewsTherinTelescope

Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old?

Peter Ahlstrom

Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book.

And see this thread reply from 2009.

Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to.
General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022)

 TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

LewsTherinTelescope

At the end of The Lost Metal, we learn that Marsh will be using atium from the ettmetal experiments to stay alive going forward. However, Peter recently revealed (and you confirmed) that the atium in Era 1 which stored youth was actually a mix of atium and electrum. How will this continue to work to keep him young?

Brandon Sanderson

They're going to have a different term for pure atium and for what has been known as atium--what they're making. It is not hard to get the right mix down for what he needs to stay alive. It is hard to make enough of it to keep him alive. Well, not hard, but definitely not scalable to more than one person, how about that. They are able to do it, you've just got to make an alloy.

I will apologize for this. This is a post-Era-1 retcon where I realized I need all the God Metals to do different things, and this is just one of the aspects that comes down. For those who don't know what's going on: I get done with Era 1, I start really working on the nature of metals in the cosmere. I'm like, "Ehhh... Atium really should be burnable by anybody. It's a God Metal. The way God Metals work is not in line with how I've made atium. So what they call atium has to have trace elements of something else, and then there's a pure form of atium out there that would be the true pure God Metal." That is one of those unfortunate retcons when you're doing all this continuity. And it works just fine in the books, because the way that atium is being made is a pretty complicated little process there in the Pits of Hathsin.

The question is the right question. Sazed is going to get out of this pure atium, which he is going to need to tweak before he gives it to Marsh. Whether Marsh knows he is getting a tweaked version or not is subject to your own interpretation.

For arcanist purposes, if you want to call the other one pure atium and the regular one just atium, I'd recommend something like that for your wikis and things like that.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

It's still the case. Officially it wasn't Atium but Atium-electrum alloy, and Malatium is Atium-gold alloy. Pure Atium alone is burnable by everyone, but not Atium alloys. And the change was already done before HoA.

 

My point is that with the change the metals didn't need to be switched in and out of the base 16 - which was a very awkward idea to begin with, since electrum already is in it. IIRC, now "atium" Mistings are actually electrum mistings and "malatium" mistings would just be gold mistings. The mistings of metals unknown in Era 1 were still being born back then, they just couldn't be identified.

Which actually partially fixes the illogic of nobles never getting snapped by the mists in HoA. Yes, they would have been subjected to torture as adolescents in order to get them to snap, but even if they didn't quite have enough investiture to get there on their own, an extra infusion from the mists should have gotten more of them over the threshold than  the skaa, because their backround investiture level still should have been higher due to descent. But if some of these nobles were unwittingly already allomancers of unknown metals, well, it alleviates the problem.

Since the change still isn't codified in actual text,  Sanderson might yet decide on something different in the end, though.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Isilel

[IlstrawberrySeed]

21 hours ago, alder24 said:

That was a change Leras did - he switched 2 based metals for Atium and Malatium to make people into Mistings of those but preserving the number 16, so the people can recognise that something unnatural is happening. 

  Hide contents

Chaos2651

Hemalurgically, atium steals Allomantic Temporal Powers. But, that seems unlikely, since atium is a god metal. It wouldn't fit in with the rest of the magic system. Did Preservation, in addition to switching Cadmium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium, also switch atium's Feruchemical and Hemalurgic powers with Cadmium? Because it seems to me there's not a lot of atium Marsh can use to live for hundreds of years into the next Mistborn trilogy.

Brandon Sanderson

Preservation wanted Atium and Malatium to be of use to the people, as he recognized that it would be a very powerful tool—and that using it up could help defeat Ruin. But he also recognized that sixteen was a mythological important number, and felt it would make the best sign for his followers. So he took out the most unlikely (difficult to make and use) metals for his sign to his followers. But that doesn't have much to do with Hemalurgy's use here.

Remember that the tables—and the ars Arcanum—are 'in world' creations. (Or, at least, in-universe.) The knowledge represented in them is as people understand it, and can always have flaws. That was the case with having atium on the table in the first place, and that was the case with people (specifically the Inquisitors) trying to figure out what atium did Hemalurgically.

Their experiments (very expensive ones) are what determined that atium (which they thought was just one of the sixteen metals) granted the Allomantic Temporal powers. What they didn't realize is that atium (used correctly) could steal ANY of the powers. Think of it as a wild card. With the right knowledge, you could use it to mimic any other spike. It works far better than other spikes as well.

As for Marsh, he's got a whole bag of atium (taken off of the Kandra who was going to try to sell it.) So he's all right for quite a while. A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood.

But this was a little beyond their magical understanding at the time.

Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009)

 

  Hide contents

little wilson (paraphrased)

I saw Brandon at a book signing back in mid-December, and I asked him about the 16 percent deal. He said that Preservation replaced the real External Temporal Metals with Atium and Malatium (at least I'm assuming Malatium, but he didn't mention that specifically. He only said Atium). So not-Cerrobend and Cadmium weren't counted in the 16%. Nicrosil and Chromium, on the other hand, were. So there are Chromium and Nicrosil mistings running around, not knowing that they're mistings.

TWG Posts (Jan. 20, 2009)

 

Leras Switched what was being snapped by the mists, which is direct shardic intervention. There was nothing preventing the replacement metals. And this is assuming Shard/alloy mistings exist, and this isn't a oathbreaker honorblade with them actually being gold/electrum mistings, and mistings being able to burn shard alloys of their metal.

11 hours ago, Isilel said:

I am pretty certain that this is no longer the case, since Sanderson now wants the godmetals to work differently. But he didn't yet canonically finalize the new system.

 

I am not entirely sure what you mean here. One cannot "contaminate" somebody else's storage. If Wayne, after tapping some of the health from that unkeyed metalmind of Kelesina's, decided to store in it, he would have just created a second pool of health in the same chunk of gold, one that only he could use. While any Bloodmaker would have still been able to tap the unkeyed portion remaining. 

I suggest that one can't 100% store Identity, though, that even in unkeyed metalminds there are enough traces to prevent accessing feruchemical power via burning the storage. Or maybe it just precludes the amplification effect that natural Twinborn compounders and Marsh get.

We don't know what happens when a metalmind is attempted to be overfilled. And we haven't seen any shared metalminds, let alone anything filled enough. However, I was meerly extrapolating how traces of identity interfering with hemalurgic compounding would work under other situations. If a small amount of identity like that, then a full split metalmind is bound to be an issue.

8 hours ago, Isilel said:

My point is that with the change the metals didn't need to be switched in and out of the base 16 - which was a very awkward idea to begin with, since electrum already is in it. IIRC, now "atium" Mistings are actually electrum mistings and "malatium" mistings would just be gold mistings. The mistings of metals unknown in Era 1 were still being born back then, they just couldn't be identified.

This.

[therunner]

40 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

We don't know what happens when a metalmind is attempted to be overfilled. And we haven't seen any shared metalminds, let alone anything filled enough. However, I was meerly extrapolating how traces of identity interfering with hemalurgic compounding would work under other situations. If a small amount of identity like that, then a full split metalmind is bound to be an issue.

We have WoBs on this though.

One, metalmind can become full, then you simply cannot fill it anymore, that is self-explenatory. Investiture resists Investiture, so it would be like trying to put more gas in full tank or something like that. Perhaps you could somehow pressurize it or something, and stuff a bit more, but there would be limit even than.

Two, per the WoB two Feruchemists storing in the same metalmind will create two pools of power that don't interfere. So there would not be issues with split metalmind, even when full.
 

Spoiler

ReaderAt2046

Can a Feruchemist store an attribute in a metalmind that someone else has already stored in and if so, do the charges affect each other in any way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but the charges are just stored in separate pieces of the metal, and don't really influence one another.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

 

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, IlstrawberrySeed said:

Leras Switched what was being snapped by the mists, which is direct shardic intervention. There was nothing preventing the replacement metals. And this is assuming Shard/alloy mistings exist, and this isn't a oathbreaker honorblade with them actually being gold/electrum mistings, and mistings being able to burn shard alloys of their metal.

I don't understand you here well. Yes, mistings of Atium and Malatium exist, because WoBs confirm it. And Math confirms it - there were 16 different Mistings created by Mists, and only 1/16 of those were Atium Mistings, not 2/16, only 1/16. Electrum Mistings and Atium-Electrum Mistings were different from each other. Those Mistings were specifically created by Preservation, not just by Mists, but making them possible in to be in the first place:

Spoiler

Questioner

If atium isn't a regular metal then why are there atium Mistings?

Brandon Sanderson

They were designed and created specifically to do what they did. Remember this is-- Preservation and Ruin were able to influence the world and rewrite people's spiritual DNA.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

 

9 hours ago, Isilel said:

My point is that with the change the metals didn't need to be switched in and out of the base 16 - which was a very awkward idea to begin with, since electrum already is in it. IIRC, now "atium" Mistings are actually electrum mistings and "malatium" mistings would just be gold mistings. The mistings of metals unknown in Era 1 were still being born back then, they just couldn't be identified.

Which actually partially fixes the illogic of nobles never getting snapped by the mists in HoA. Yes, they would have been subjected to torture as adolescents in order to get them to snap, but even if they didn't quite have enough investiture to get there on their own, an extra infusion from the mists should have gotten more of them over the threshold than  the skaa, because their backround investiture level still should have been higher due to descent. But if some of these nobles were unwittingly already allomancers of unknown metals, well, it alleviates the problem.

Since the change still isn't codified in actual text,  Sanderson might yet decide on something different in the end, though.

Yes, I understand, but disagree, yet understand that it might change in the future. For now however it is confirmed by WoBs that Preservation swapped 2 metals from base 16 in the snapping mechanism, and replaced them with Atium and Malatium. Swap is canon for now. Atium Misting isn't Electrum Misting, as both Bendalloy and Cadmium weren't counted in 16% - that means if Atium Mistings were Electrum Mistings there would be 2% of them, not 1%.

And remember, Peter said that the retcon is way older than people assume and already was enforced in HoA (as the table there made destinction between pure Atium and Atium, see WoBs in posts above), HoA already includes the post-retcon version of canon.

Spoiler

little wilson (paraphrased)

I saw Brandon at a book signing back in mid-December, and I asked him about the 16 percent deal. He said that Preservation replaced the real External Temporal Metals with Atium and Malatium (at least I'm assuming Malatium, but he didn't mention that specifically. He only said Atium). So not-Cerrobend and Cadmium weren't counted in the 16%. Nicrosil and Chromium, on the other hand, were. So there are Chromium and Nicrosil mistings running around, not knowing that they're mistings.

TWG Posts (Jan. 20, 2009)

 

And yes, this might be changed in the future, particularly with Mistborn movies coming out (it may or may not change book's canon, or only affect movie canon):

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

So, one thing I think I did wrong in the books was not having more allomancer guards and soldiers who were women. I don't think our same gender norms would be the case on Scadrial.

One of the [screenplay] revisions is this: Shan is no longer Elend's fiance, but his sister. Their father has left on business to the outer domninances, and so Shan is making a play to secure the heirship, trying to prove she is more bold and strong than her brother. This is what gives the team an opening, and why they're striking now with the heist, as in this version, House Venture maintains the city policing and has access to the atium stash.

The plan is to put a few Allomancers (including Ham) into the Venture house guard, and exploit Shan's desire to prove herself by creating chaos in the city that she'll think she needs to put down with decisive action. That will involve her pulling out the atium stash, which will in turn let the team know where to go to rob them.

It streamlines the book's story in some elegant ways to do this. Shan becomes the primary "mark" of the book, in many ways. It also lets me explain a little more succinctly what various members of the crew are doing in the background while we focus on Vin, who is to get close to Shan as a confidant--which is why she's sent to the parties. And why Shan being a brat to her isn't just annoying, it means a major part of the plan isn't yet in place.

It explains way better, in my opinion, why Shan would act against Elend. It's all clicking into place as I move pieces around. That said, I understand those who want a Television show. I could see going that way, perhaps.

Trouble is, nobody in streaming needs a big fantasy property. Anywhere I go right now, I'd be in a distant second or third place to Tolkien, WoT, Witcher, or Kingkiller. The offers I've gotten have been for a fraction of the budget of those shows--since everyone has already spent big money on their big fantasy show, and isn't really interested in another.

I'm confident feature is the place I want Mistborn; but even if I weren't, I'm not thrilled by the idea of being lost on Netflix as their "other" fantasy show.

Rapharasium

I don't know if I'm being negative, but these changes really worry and disappoint me. I really like Era 1 as it is, and all this change in the dynamics of society and the plot as too drastic.

Brandon Sanderson

This isn't negative; I understand this response, and think it's valid.

At the same time, I'm of the personal philosophy that a film should generally be a different beast than a book--a book can lean into the little intricacies of a story, while a film should be a bold but unified statement.

Nothing will happen to the books; those will remain the same. But if I want this film to work as a film, I believe I need to be willing to re-imagine parts of the story.

Mycroft_canner

With Elend having a sister does that mean you don’t need the Zane plot anymore?

Brandon Sanderson

That's from the second book--so it would be in the television show, and we'd likely still do it.

DataLoreHD

prove she is more bold and strong than her brother

Which brother?It certainly could not be Elend, right? Elend had no Allomancy powers (before he ate the lerasium in WoA), so Straff despised Elend and thought him too weak.And Zane was a bastard and also mad dog.If Shan was Straff's legitimate daughter, then her succession was already 100% secure. She wouldn't need to prove anything to anybody.

Brandon Sanderson

It will be Elend, but it's more that this is the first time that Shan gets to be on her own, leading by herself, and wants to show off for the Lord Ruler. Also, there's the question of whether the male heir--though inferior in this case--might get the nod for sexism reasons. I think it's going to work just fine, but I'll admit, it's getting a little rough to discuss all these details on a thread like this--I can't answer everyone's questions, I'm afraid. I just wanted to indicate the kinds of changes I'm looking at making.

Whatever I do will go through my standard "show it to tons of beta readers and get feedback" process, so I should be able to catch problems and fix them.

meh84f

The bit about atium is a bit confusing. The Ventures are going to have the Atium stash? Not the stash that we don’t find until the end I’m assuming? So it’ll be a stash but much smaller than expected?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'm not sure I can explain it all in this, but one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers. As I've gotten further in the cosmere, using a god metal as just for Mistborn has felt off.

So the lore change for the films will mean any Allomancer can use atium. This, in turn, lets House Venture have access to the LR's atium as a "Control the city" last resort. They keep a task force of allomancers for this purpose--which Ham can join, in anticipation of being able to steal it once Shan accesses it. (They don't know that House Venture is only given about a hundred beads of atium, not access to the full mythical cache, which will be reserved for the third movie.)

Makes the worldbuilding and storytelling more elegant, I've found, in the film. And it fits better with more "modern" cosmere fundamentals as have developed over the last decade. I think I'd make this change even if we moved to a television show and long form.

The Lord Ruler is still the "big bad" but Shan and the Inquisitors both get a little more screen time. (Actually, about the same as in the books--it's just that other parts are being trimmed, making them more front-and-center.)

Phantine

Based on that, you're also streamlining away the Sign of Sixteen if it gets a sequel? To be honest, that didn't really work for me in the novel anyway.

Brandon Sanderson

It's one of my least favorite parts of the trilogy. It (along with Vin drawing upon the mists in book one) are big changes I'm hoping to make to fix weaker sections of the continuity.

General Reddit 2020 (June 22, 2020)

 

[Scars of Hathsin]

On 07/02/2023 at 2:50 AM, Trusk'our said:

In The Lost Metal, Marsh states that Identity contamination prevents the Set from compounding. I wonder, then, if you could overcome this limitation by having the donor blank their Identity via Unsealed Aluminumminds, or via a Hemalurigc spike.

This also makes me wonder why it is that Marsh can compound, even though he doesn't (presumably) have Identityless spikes. Did Hemalurgic spikes just permeate the Spiriweb more in Ancient times, and now the spikes are more "contained" within their separate Identities?

I know that we have the Ars. Arcanum, but I'm just curious about the mechanics of Hemalurgy's change, and how they can be overcome by a clever individual (not that I personally claim to be such an individual, just a curious one).

I think he can compound because of Identity Blanking, as it is shown the Lord Ruler knows about aluminium as his Inquisitors use it Allomantically, maybe he knows what it does Feruchemally because he is one (a Feruchemist) , and he passed the knowledge onto the inquisitors, or maybe Ruin knew what to do to let them compound. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Scars of Hathsin

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, Scars of Hathsin said:

I think he can compound because of Identity Blanking, as it is shown the Lord Ruler knows about aluminium as his Inquisitors use it Allomantically, maybe he knows what it does Feruchemally because he is one (a Feruchemist) , and he passed the knowledge onto the inquisitors, or maybe Ruin knew what to do to let them compound. 

I hadn't considered that Marsh might already be using F-aluminum to Compounding viable for himself, but he did get some spikes from the other Inquisitors after they died, so perhaps this is possible.

Though, I will say that I think it's unlikely that the Lord Ruler taught the Inquisitors the secret, as he didn't want them to be too powerful and potentially overwhelm him. It's possible that Ruin took measures to equip some one or more of the Inquisitors with this power, but I don't recall anything standing out in the books that would point to that being the case.

In short, maybe this is the case, but I don't see a lot of evidence for it as of right now.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Trusk'our

[Scars of Hathsin]

It was just a thought I had, I have been thinking about it for a while. It could be wrong, because as you said TLR may not want them to be to powerful and know the secret to compounding.

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Scars of Hathsin

[Trusk'our]

1 hour ago, Scars of Hathsin said:

It was just a thought I had, I have been thinking about it for a while. It could be wrong, because as you said TLR may not want them to be to powerful and know the secret to compounding.

 

Better to voice an idea for others to criticize than risk having an incorrect idea lodge itself in your brain, I always say 

[Isilel]

14 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't understand you here well. Yes, mistings of Atium and Malatium exist, because WoBs confirm it. And Math confirms it - there were 16 different Mistings created by Mists, and only 1/16 of those were Atium Mistings, not 2/16, only 1/16. Electrum Mistings and Atium-Electrum Mistings were different from each other.

 

Not after the change. The change was that pure atium can be used by anybody, so real atium mistings don't actually exist. However, Scadrians never had access to pure atium because the beads coalescing in the geods were an atium-electrum alloy. As such, it could only be used by electrum mistings, who were the 1/16 of all mist-snapped. Therefore, the old WoBs that mention metal substitution in the base 16 are no longer correct. There have always been 16 allomantic metals and 2 godmetals, each of which could also have 16 alloys with the allomantic metals.  What the First Agers called "atium" was one such alloy and malatium was another. It is a much more logical and elegant system - if Sanderson ultimately chosese to canonize it in text.

[alder24]

41 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Not after the change.

It was already after the change: 

Spoiler

Xais56

Brandon has said that everyone ought to be able to burn Atium, like they can all burn Lerasium, and the fact that they can't was an oversight on his part that he would've done different in hindsight.

Maybe now he's had an in-universe reason to re-write the laws of allomancy it's back to his intended concept; Mistborn burn all 16 base metals, mistings burn one base metal, non-allomancers can only burn godmetal.

Peter Ahlstrom

My explanation for this is that Preservation somehow caused all naturally occurring atium to form as an alloy of atium and electrum. The atium Mistings were actually electrum Mistings.

Xais56

It's a very tidy solution, but it creates the maddening question of what does pure atium do?

Peter Ahlstrom

That answer has already been revealed canonically. RAFO.

Footnote: It has since been clarified that the effect was revealed on the Table of Allomantic Metals poster and seen at the end of The Hero of Ages.
General Reddit 2021 (Nov. 2, 2021)

 

Spoiler

/u/AAKS_

My understanding is that Brandon thinks it is a plothole that Lerasium can be burned by Scadrian (regardless of if they are mistings/mistborn) but Atium can't.

His solution is to retcon the Pits to naturally produce an Atium/Electrum alloy, presumably by the design of Preservation. Therefore we don't know what pure Atium looks like or does when used in any magic.

Peter Ahlstrom

We do know what it does. It’s on the Allomancy poster, and the effect appeared one time at the end of Hero of Ages.

LewsTherinTelescope

Interesting. Do you know if he had already conceived the retcon by the time the poster was written, or if that line about pure atium just turned out to fit really well retroactively?

Peter Ahlstrom

The retcon is way older than a lot of people assume.

LewsTherinTelescope

Does this mean he had it in mind by the time Hero of Ages released (since the first public version of the poster dates to 2008), or just that it's old but not sure exactly how old?

Peter Ahlstrom

Remember that what's in the books is filtered through the understanding of the characters. So even if Brandon planned it from the beginning, if the characters didn't know about it, it's not going to come out in the book.

And see this thread reply from 2009.

Footnote: The link is to a post on the Timewaster's Guide forums, where Peter responds to someone asking about whether atium is an alloy by saying he now knows enough to confirm or deny the theory, but is not allowed to.
General Reddit 2022 (Dec. 4, 2022)

So yes, it's canon. Still canon after the retcon. Allomantic poster form HoA 2008 already has the name "Pure Atium" on it, the change was already done in 2008.

41 minutes ago, Isilel said:

The change was that pure atium can be used by anybody, so real atium mistings don't actually exist. However, Scadrians never had access to pure atium because the beads coalescing in the geods were an atium-electrum alloy. As such, it could only be used by electrum mistings, who were the 1/16 of all mist-snapped. Therefore, the old WoBs that mention metal substitution in the base 16 are no longer correct. There have always been 16 allomantic metals and 2 godmetals, each of which could also have 16 alloys with the allomantic metals.  What the First Agers called "atium" was one such alloy and malatium was another. It is a much more logical and elegant system - if Sanderson ultimately chosese to canonize it in text.

The changes were done, and later WoBs still support the idea of Preservation switching 2 metals for Atium alloys. Yes, Pure Atium is burnable by everyone, not Atium alloys.

WoB, 5 years after 2009 replay on the forum:

Spoiler

Questioner

If atium isn't a regular metal then why are there atium Mistings?

Brandon Sanderson

They were designed and created specifically to do what they did. Remember this is-- Preservation and Ruin were able to influence the world and rewrite people's spiritual DNA.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

 

As I said, I understand you, don't agree but understand. Until we get a clear confirmation from Brandon if Atium-electrum Mistings were the same as electrum Mistings and none of 16 based metals were switched by Preservation into Atium/Malatium, we will continue to disagree. Let's end with this as we both understand each other yet disagree.

[Jn819]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:50 AM, Trusk'our said:

In The Lost Metal, Marsh states that Identity contamination prevents the Set from compounding. I wonder, then, if you could overcome this limitation by having the donor blank their Identity via Unsealed Aluminumminds, or via a Hemalurigc spike.

This also makes me wonder why it is that Marsh can compound, even though he doesn't (presumably) have Identityless spikes. Did Hemalurgic spikes just permeate the Spiriweb more in Ancient times, and now the spikes are more "contained" within their separate Identities?

I know that we have the Ars. Arcanum, but I'm just curious about the mechanics of Hemalurgy's change, and how they can be overcome by a clever individual (not that I personally claim to be such an individual, just a curious one).

I think what's going on here is largely that the Set sees hemalurgy as a tool, not a way of fundamentally changing yourself.

Between Ruin's pressure and the way people perceived Inquisitors, Marsh is no longer just Marsh the Seeker, Kelsier's brother. He is the Inquisitor once known as Marsh, Ruin's puppet. This Identity had overwritten his original Identity almost completely by the end of HoA, as we see by him referring to the Inquisitors as his brethren, among other things. Even in Era 2, his Identity is Death, the personification of Ruin, though his will as Marsh has more influence now Ruin's Vessel isn't crushing it. That direct Connection to Ruin is a central part of his Identity, along with the fact that he is a creation of Hemalurgy on the same level as a Koloss. That's why Hemalurgy works to its fullest with him.

Edit: just came across a quote from TLM that helps corroborate this (Chapter 28, bold is my emphasis):

Spoiler

"You may call me Marsh," he said softly. "It ... feels good to hear that name. To remember what I used to be."

In contrast, members of the Set don't really embrace their Identity as products of Hemalurgy. They strongly retain their original Identity, which conflicts with the Identity of whoever they stole the powers of with their spikes. It's like trying to become Radiant without embracing the Ideals. The human and spren must merge to some degree, such that the Identity of Windrunner Kaladin Stormblessed is distinct from Kaladin the spearman.

That, plus the fact that they tend to swap spikes (IIRC) keeps them from having quite as many benefits. Their Identities never adapt such that, say, Mister Suit begins to see himself as Coinshot Edwarn Ladrian.

Of course, this is all just my interpretation of what "Identity contamination" means as an obstacle to full Hemalurgic power. I could be completely off base.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Jn819
adding reference

[IlstrawberrySeed]

On 5/17/2023 at 5:51 AM, alder24 said:

As I said, I understand you, don't agree but understand. Until we get a clear confirmation from Brandon if Atium-electrum Mistings were the same as electrum Mistings and none of 16 based metals were switched by Preservation into Atium/Malatium, we will continue to disagree. Let's end with this as we both understand each other yet disagree.

 They were saying half of the following, so I won't really say much on defending that part. Also sorry for the delay, I didn't get a notification, or it faded.

On 5/16/2023 at 1:46 PM, alder24 said:

I don't understand you here well. Yes, mistings of Atium and Malatium exist, because WoBs confirm it. And Math confirms it - there were 16 different Mistings created by Mists, and only 1/16 of those were Atium Mistings, not 2/16, only 1/16. Electrum Mistings and Atium-Electrum Mistings were different from each other. Those Mistings were specifically created by Preservation, not just by Mists, but making them possible in to be in the first place:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

If atium isn't a regular metal then why are there atium Mistings?

Brandon Sanderson

They were designed and created specifically to do what they did. Remember this is-- Preservation and Ruin were able to influence the world and rewrite people's spiritual DNA.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

 

Yes, I understand, but disagree, yet understand that it might change in the future. For now however it is confirmed by WoBs that Preservation swapped 2 metals from base 16 in the snapping mechanism, and replaced them with Atium and Malatium. Swap is canon for now. Atium Misting isn't Electrum Misting, as both Bendalloy and Cadmium weren't counted in 16% - that means if Atium Mistings were Electrum Mistings there would be 2% of them, not 1%.

And remember, Peter said that the retcon is way older than people assume and already was enforced in HoA (as the table there made destinction between pure Atium and Atium, see WoBs in posts above), HoA already includes the post-retcon version of canon.

  Reveal hidden contents

little wilson (paraphrased)

I saw Brandon at a book signing back in mid-December, and I asked him about the 16 percent deal. He said that Preservation replaced the real External Temporal Metals with Atium and Malatium (at least I'm assuming Malatium, but he didn't mention that specifically. He only said Atium). So not-Cerrobend and Cadmium weren't counted in the 16%. Nicrosil and Chromium, on the other hand, were. So there are Chromium and Nicrosil mistings running around, not knowing that they're mistings.

TWG Posts (Jan. 20, 2009)

 

And yes, this might be changed in the future, particularly with Mistborn movies coming out (it may or may not change book's canon, or only affect movie canon):

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

So, one thing I think I did wrong in the books was not having more allomancer guards and soldiers who were women. I don't think our same gender norms would be the case on Scadrial.

One of the [screenplay] revisions is this: Shan is no longer Elend's fiance, but his sister. Their father has left on business to the outer domninances, and so Shan is making a play to secure the heirship, trying to prove she is more bold and strong than her brother. This is what gives the team an opening, and why they're striking now with the heist, as in this version, House Venture maintains the city policing and has access to the atium stash.

The plan is to put a few Allomancers (including Ham) into the Venture house guard, and exploit Shan's desire to prove herself by creating chaos in the city that she'll think she needs to put down with decisive action. That will involve her pulling out the atium stash, which will in turn let the team know where to go to rob them.

It streamlines the book's story in some elegant ways to do this. Shan becomes the primary "mark" of the book, in many ways. It also lets me explain a little more succinctly what various members of the crew are doing in the background while we focus on Vin, who is to get close to Shan as a confidant--which is why she's sent to the parties. And why Shan being a brat to her isn't just annoying, it means a major part of the plan isn't yet in place.

It explains way better, in my opinion, why Shan would act against Elend. It's all clicking into place as I move pieces around. That said, I understand those who want a Television show. I could see going that way, perhaps.

Trouble is, nobody in streaming needs a big fantasy property. Anywhere I go right now, I'd be in a distant second or third place to Tolkien, WoT, Witcher, or Kingkiller. The offers I've gotten have been for a fraction of the budget of those shows--since everyone has already spent big money on their big fantasy show, and isn't really interested in another.

I'm confident feature is the place I want Mistborn; but even if I weren't, I'm not thrilled by the idea of being lost on Netflix as their "other" fantasy show.

Rapharasium

I don't know if I'm being negative, but these changes really worry and disappoint me. I really like Era 1 as it is, and all this change in the dynamics of society and the plot as too drastic.

Brandon Sanderson

This isn't negative; I understand this response, and think it's valid.

At the same time, I'm of the personal philosophy that a film should generally be a different beast than a book--a book can lean into the little intricacies of a story, while a film should be a bold but unified statement.

Nothing will happen to the books; those will remain the same. But if I want this film to work as a film, I believe I need to be willing to re-imagine parts of the story.

Mycroft_canner

With Elend having a sister does that mean you don’t need the Zane plot anymore?

Brandon Sanderson

That's from the second book--so it would be in the television show, and we'd likely still do it.

DataLoreHD

prove she is more bold and strong than her brother

Which brother?It certainly could not be Elend, right? Elend had no Allomancy powers (before he ate the lerasium in WoA), so Straff despised Elend and thought him too weak.And Zane was a bastard and also mad dog.If Shan was Straff's legitimate daughter, then her succession was already 100% secure. She wouldn't need to prove anything to anybody.

Brandon Sanderson

It will be Elend, but it's more that this is the first time that Shan gets to be on her own, leading by herself, and wants to show off for the Lord Ruler. Also, there's the question of whether the male heir--though inferior in this case--might get the nod for sexism reasons. I think it's going to work just fine, but I'll admit, it's getting a little rough to discuss all these details on a thread like this--I can't answer everyone's questions, I'm afraid. I just wanted to indicate the kinds of changes I'm looking at making.

Whatever I do will go through my standard "show it to tons of beta readers and get feedback" process, so I should be able to catch problems and fix them.

meh84f

The bit about atium is a bit confusing. The Ventures are going to have the Atium stash? Not the stash that we don’t find until the end I’m assuming? So it’ll be a stash but much smaller than expected?

Brandon Sanderson

So, I'm not sure I can explain it all in this, but one big change I wished I'd made from the start of Mistborn is making atium usable by all Allomancers. As I've gotten further in the cosmere, using a god metal as just for Mistborn has felt off.

So the lore change for the films will mean any Allomancer can use atium. This, in turn, lets House Venture have access to the LR's atium as a "Control the city" last resort. They keep a task force of allomancers for this purpose--which Ham can join, in anticipation of being able to steal it once Shan accesses it. (They don't know that House Venture is only given about a hundred beads of atium, not access to the full mythical cache, which will be reserved for the third movie.)

Makes the worldbuilding and storytelling more elegant, I've found, in the film. And it fits better with more "modern" cosmere fundamentals as have developed over the last decade. I think I'd make this change even if we moved to a television show and long form.

The Lord Ruler is still the "big bad" but Shan and the Inquisitors both get a little more screen time. (Actually, about the same as in the books--it's just that other parts are being trimmed, making them more front-and-center.)

Phantine

Based on that, you're also streamlining away the Sign of Sixteen if it gets a sequel? To be honest, that didn't really work for me in the novel anyway.

Brandon Sanderson

It's one of my least favorite parts of the trilogy. It (along with Vin drawing upon the mists in book one) are big changes I'm hoping to make to fix weaker sections of the continuity.

General Reddit 2020 (June 22, 2020)

 

What I said was 2 things. 

1. If Atium and Malatium mistings exist, then is isn't that Preservation swapped metals in the magic, but rather that who the mists were snapping was changed. If a mistborn had bendalloy during era 1, they could have burned it.
2. Atium and Malatium mistings might not exist, and they could be electrum and gold mistings.

Based on your replies, we know that 2 is false, but 1 still holds.

On 5/23/2023 at 11:30 AM, Jn819 said:

I think what's going on here is largely that the Set sees hemalurgy as a tool, not a way of fundamentally changing yourself.

Between Ruin's pressure and the way people perceived Inquisitors, Marsh is no longer just Marsh the Seeker, Kelsier's brother. He is the Inquisitor once known as Marsh, Ruin's puppet. This Identity had overwritten his original Identity almost completely by the end of HoA, as we see by him referring to the Inquisitors as his brethren, among other things. Even in Era 2, his Identity is Death, the personification of Ruin, though his will as Marsh has more influence now Ruin's Vessel isn't crushing it. That direct Connection to Ruin is a central part of his Identity, along with the fact that he is a creation of Hemalurgy on the same level as a Koloss. That's why Hemalurgy works to its fullest with him.

Edit: just came across a quote from TLM that helps corroborate this (Chapter 28, bold is my emphasis):

  Reveal hidden contents

"You may call me Marsh," he said softly. "It ... feels good to hear that name. To remember what I used to be."

In contrast, members of the Set don't really embrace their Identity as products of Hemalurgy. They strongly retain their original Identity, which conflicts with the Identity of whoever they stole the powers of with their spikes. It's like trying to become Radiant without embracing the Ideals. The human and spren must merge to some degree, such that the Identity of Windrunner Kaladin Stormblessed is distinct from Kaladin the spearman.

That, plus the fact that they tend to swap spikes (IIRC) keeps them from having quite as many benefits. Their Identities never adapt such that, say, Mister Suit begins to see himself as Coinshot Edwarn Ladrian.

Of course, this is all just my interpretation of what "Identity contamination" means as an obstacle to full Hemalurgic power. I could be completely off base.

This is a really juicy theory. I don't think this is what identity contamination is, but I do think that this aspect of perception is important.

Edited June 12, 2023 by IlstrawberrySeed