Focuses on Roshar

[haiamehs]

Mad_scientist, nice post. i find your discussions very interesting.

[CabbageHead]

Touch would allow you to designate where you want the power to go, but the point of a Focus is what allows you to choose what power is then used. In Allomancy, you burn a particular metal; in AonDor, you draw a particular Aon; in Awakening, you use a particular Command. Touch doesn't work in that respect because while touching is necessary to use the power, it doesn't distinguish between powers. What allows you to choose between either a Full Lashing or a Basic Lashing? What's the difference between Jasnah using Soulcasting and using her Stormlightning power? The difference would be the Focus.

Also, you don't need touch to use Full Lashings, in the Prologue, Szeth is able to project Stormlight onto a doorframe to make the door stick to it, he does this from a distance.

You're probably right, I guess I'm taking too literaly the meaning of the word focus.

Out of interest, where in the prologue was the example you gave above? I skimmed through it again and was unable to find it. The closest I could see was

"Preparing for a Full Lashing, he raised his arm and commanded the Stormlight to pool there, causing the skin to burst alight with radiance. Then he flung his hand out toward the doorframe, spraying white luminescence across it like paint. He slammed the door just as the guards arrived."

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

That's the part I was referring to.

[Zas678]

The "What you do" for Honor makes a ton of sense. Honor must "give out" his power by way of Honor, or, by keeping the promises you have kept. Although it matters what you say, it matters so much more if you keep to what you have said. For example, if Shallan said the Words of the Knights Radiant that Kaladin said, it wouldn't do anything for her. Why? Because she hasn't acted (to our knowledge) to "Defend those who can't defend themselves"

[happyman]

The "What you do" for Honor makes a ton of sense. Honor must "give out" his power by way of Honor, or, by keeping the promises you have kept. Although it matters what you say, it matters so much more if you keep to what you have said. For example, if Shallan said the Words of the Knights Radiant that Kaladin said, it wouldn't do anything for her. Why? Because she hasn't acted (to our knowledge) to "Defend those who can't defend themselves"

Which leads into the obvious question: Where is Shallan getting her powers from?

It is probably an aspect of honor, but definitely not Kaladin's. Hmmm. We still don't know much about her backstory, so it's hard to say. Maybe she always seeks out the truth, no matter how deeply hidden? She certainly isn't always honest with others.

[CabbageHead]

Which leads into the obvious question: Where is Shallan getting her powers from?

It is probably an aspect of honor, but definitely not Kaladin's. Hmmm. We still don't know much about her backstory, so it's hard to say. Maybe she always seeks out the truth, no matter how deeply hidden? She certainly isn't always honest with others.

I have a sneaking suspicion her power comes from Cultivation, not Honor. I get that feeling from the way she loves sketching plants and animals, and her excitement at thinking up by herself the concept of symbiosis between different life forms. I know Honor gets all the big scenes, Dalinar's stormdreams, etc. but Cultivation seems at least as important in Roshar. People manage to cultivate food crops in a world without soil, where highstorms will rip up anything not nailed down and toss it around in the air every few days/weeks, where entire countries exist on barren rock. Thats some pretty impressive cultivation.

[Chaos]

I have a sneaking suspicion her power comes from Cultivation, not Honor. I get that feeling from the way she loves sketching plants and animals, and her excitement at thinking up by herself the concept of symbiosis between different life forms. I know Honor gets all the big scenes, Dalinar's stormdreams, etc. but Cultivation seems at least as important in Roshar. People manage to cultivate food crops in a world without soil, where highstorms will rip up anything not nailed down and toss it around in the air every few days/weeks, where entire countries exist on barren rock. Thats some pretty impressive cultivation.

It's true that Cultivation should have a big influence, but we know Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding, and it seems fairly clear that Surgebinding is of Honor. Her Memories may be something else, but there are two powers per Radiant, so I'd venture on the side of Surgebinding.

[happyman]

I have a sneaking suspicion her power comes from Cultivation, not Honor. I get that feeling from the way she loves sketching plants and animals, and her excitement at thinking up by herself the concept of symbiosis between different life forms. I know Honor gets all the big scenes, Dalinar's stormdreams, etc. but Cultivation seems at least as important in Roshar. People manage to cultivate food crops in a world without soil, where highstorms will rip up anything not nailed down and toss it around in the air every few days/weeks, where entire countries exist on barren rock. Thats some pretty impressive cultivation.

It's entirely possible that all magic systems on Roshar are the result of interactions between the Shard's, in which case pure honor would not need to be involved to access the power. On the other hand, it seems extremely likely that the Knights Radiant were connected with honor in important ways, so I suspect her powers come from some aspect of honor, at least partly.

[CabbageHead]

It's true that Cultivation should have a big influence, but we know Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding, and it seems fairly clear that Surgebinding is of Honor. Her Memories may be something else, but there are two powers per Radiant, so I'd venture on the side of Surgebinding.

I've said this before, and I'm sure I'll say it again: You are right, insofar as we know. Just, do we really know what we know?

[CabbageHead]

It's true that Cultivation should have a big influence, but we know Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding, and it seems fairly clear that Surgebinding is of Honor. Her Memories may be something else, but there are two powers per Radiant, so I'd venture on the side of Surgebinding.

A little second comment on the above: do we REALLY know that soulcasting is a subset of surgebinding? They could be overlapping domains. The name, surgebinding, tends to imply all we know of the abilities we know windwalkers may have had: abilities to bind, and exert forces, or surges, on objects. Soulcasting seems to be a bit different in many cases.

[Chaos]

You and everyone else has wondered that But it has been explicitly confirmed to be the case:

Josh: Is Soulcasting a subset of Surgebinding?

Yes, it is.

[Meandering Monotreme]

EDIT: WOW, this doesn't make sense. This is what happens when you reply to the first page of a two-page thread. Oops. I was responding to Mad Scientist's last post of the first page. My points still stand, though. (I for some reason have a problem changing my work, so additions are bold).

Sorry about my horrible Elantris references--I haven't read it in awhile, and I am too lazy to search through it (I don't have that much time to make my response, and it would take awhile if I searched through Elantris while making it).

Didn't the evil person in Elantris use a different focus to do the same thing? He used his tatoos, which I remember as not having Aons on them. If I'm not just making this up, that kind of destroys the either the specificity thing or the omnipresence thing (I'm going for omnipresense, it makes a lot more sense).

In your original argument, you pointed out that it would require more than one spren to have the same affect. That isn't true. You can bash this theory with either exclusivity or specificity, but not both, and you tried to use both. Either more than one spren does the same thing, or there is just a whole lot of overlap.

I think that there is just a whole lot of overlap. You complained about that, but is overlap a bad thing? You can use, to some extent, Bendalloy to let you dodge bullets, and you can use atium for the same thing. Is that bad? No, because there is more to each power than that.

My biggest problem with spren not being the focus: what is the focus, then? You've done a lot of bashing on that idea, but you haven't given a replacement. Stormlight, gemstones--neither of them work. There is nothing other than spren that fits. Nothing that you guys have said works the way spren does.

In a completely different thing, the Ideals seems like a good way of getting powers. Then the method of getting powers isn't the method of using them! However, that statement is just a random comment: not necessarily true, not necessarily false.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Tangletalon

[discipleofhoid]

I think there is an additional key to the focus of a power. Looking at the other systems every focus can be used to control the amount/strength of the power they access. Consider these examples:

On Sel it is an Aon that focuses or makes the Elantrian's power stronger.

On Scandrial a person can focus or flare their power by burning more metal.

On Nalthis a better command can focus the power of the breath more efficiently or for greater effect.(1 breath lifeless versus the other method where they were more expensive.)

To me is seems that the focus is the item that acts as the lens(also called a focus sometimes) for the power.

Considering this what on Roshar focuses the power(or in other words makes it stronger)?

The only thing I can think of that meets this qualification are the Ideals on which the Oaths of the Knights Radiant are based. This also matches with the quote that someone included above about it being what you have done that effects what power you get.

This also explains Shallan's powers since the two Ideals associated with Shalash are Creative and Honest - Shallan is Creative and her spren needed truth to move her to shadesmar. More evidence that the Ideals are the focus of the power.

Going through the points in previous posts to see how this matches:

A focus is actively used in the magic system - The ideals must constantly be embodied in a person for them to access the power.

A focus is omnipresent in the magic system. - See above - basically you must be that ideal to access its power.

A focus for a magic system has variations within it. - There are 20 ideals 2 for each power- by embodying the 2 ideals you gain access to that power.

A focus variation is exclusive in its use in the magic system.- The realmatic effects of each power are different - Note: For this one to apply the orders would share 2 Ideals in addition to sharing a power. I have not seen anything suggesting this wouldn't be the case.

A focus variant for a magic system is specific -This condition is met. By being protecting and leading you will always gain windrunner powers. By being Creative and honest you will have soulcasting powers Etc.

Well there is my two cents. Let me know what you think of this idea.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

The Focus is not about gaining the powers, it's about using the powers. Speaking the ideals is closer to Snapping than metals, it puts you in greater contact with your power, but isn't how you use it. Aons are the Focus of AonDor because they let you apply your power, whereas what lets you access the power is being taken by the Shaod. The ideals can be better compared to the Shaod than Aons.

I'm not convinced that Shallan is associated with Shalash, or that the attributes listed in the table are of that much significance. Check the Orders topic for my opinions on that.

EDIT: My opinion is that the Focuses for Surgebinding are the Body Focuses listed in that table, in case you wanted an alternative.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Silus - Shard of Flame

[Arcanist Lupus]

It seems to me that each magic system has 4 parts, which I shall call Eligibility, Trigger, Fuel, and Focus. I shall explain how I'm defining these terms, then address each magic system we know of.

Eligibility: This is the condition that a person must have in order to become a magic user. It gives them no intrinsic ability to preform magic, but is a necessary component.

Trigger: This is the trigger that "turns on" magic using abilities to a person.

Fuel: The source of the magical effects. Is consumed by using magic. Often tied to the body/power of a Shard.

Focus: The topic of our discussion here, the focus directs what the magic does. As has been noted, the magic user usually has control over their magic beyond choosing a focus, but the focus determines the type of effect. In some cases, the user has control over the focus (e.g. details on the Aon, how fast they burn the metal, etc), and sometimes they have control beyond the focus (e.g. visualization of commands, choosing which metal to pull or push, etc).

And here are the magic systems: (warning. Not every system fits perfectly. This is mostly just speculation)

AonDor

Eligibility: If I recall correctly, only people from Arelon and the surrounding regions were ever chosen by the Sheod.

Trigger: The Sheod. I don't know what causes this. It might be random.

Fuel: the Dor. This would be the power of the Shard.

Focus: the Aons. All Elantrians can use all the Aons, as far as we know.

Dakhor Priest Magic (mostly extrapolated (i.e. guessed) from what little I remember from the few scenes we see of them.)

Eligibility: Don't know.

Trigger: Some sort of ritual, I think.

Fuel: Death, possibly suicide.

Focus: Chanting rituals?

Allomancy

Eligibility: Having a Allomantic ancestor. Genetic inheritance.

Trigger: Being Snapped, ie strong emotion and/or the mists.

Fuel: Metal is consumed, but I think Brandon has been pretty clear in saying that the actual fuel is Preservation's body/power.

Focus: Metal. It's worth noting that some allomancers can only access part of the focus (one type of metal). Also, the focus is consumed by the magic.

Feruchemy

Eligibility: Having a Feruchemic ancester. Genetic inheritance.

Trigger: It's a bit of a stretch, but I'm going to say that their trigger is storing their attribute. After all, if they don't store their attributes, they can't reclaim them later.

Fuel: Feruchemic charge, i.e. previously stored attributes.

Focus: Metal. Some feruchemists can only access part of the focus (one type of metal).

Hemalurgy

Eligibility: Everybody is eligible, provided they're willing to stick a spike in their self.

Trigger: Having a hemalurgically charged spike stuck in you.

Fuel: The hemalurgic charge of the spike, gained from the blood of the murdered person. Actually, I'm not sure on this one, because I don't think that hemalurgic charge is consumed by using hemalurgy. If this was the fuel, than Inquisitors would have to replace their spikes periodically. It is possible that the user's own body takes over fueling the hemalurgic spike. The Inquisitor viewpoint in the first book does mention having to rest a lot.

Focus: Metal. The placement of the spikes would be a control over the focus.

BioChroma

Eligibility: Anyone, I think.

Trigger: Having Breath.

Fuel: Color.

Focus: Commands.

Surgebinding

Eligibility: Acting in a certain manner (being honorable certainly, but there are possibly other triggers as well.)

Trigger: Having a Spren bonded to you. (the Nahel bond?)

Fuel: Most likely stormlight, except that stormlight doesn't seem to be consumed, only lost.

Focus: The crux of this thread. I'm going to go with spren, but not Syl. Different spren. See below.

And that is my overall theory of Cosmere Magic.

My theory on the Surgebinding focus:

I think there are (at least) two types of spren. There are the "Nahel" spren, which bond to people who act in certain ways in order to grant them access to magic. The other type are ordinary spren, which the surgebinders can control/direct with stormlight. This would mean that the bindspren that Syl and Kaladin observe when Kaladin sticks a rock to the wall are actually causing the rock to stick, rather than being attracted to the stickiness. Also, Navani's notebook indicates that spren are used in fabrials. Also, Syl's comment about spren being one individual would explain how a bond to Syl could give Kaladin at least some control over spren.

[CabbageHead]

I think there are (at least) two types of spren. There are the "Nahel" spren, which bond to people who act in certain ways in order to grant them access to magic. The other type are ordinary spren, which the surgebinders can control/direct with stormlight. This would mean that the bindspren that Syl and Kaladin observe when Kaladin sticks a rock to the wall are actually causing the rock to stick, rather than being attracted to the stickiness. Also, Navani's notebook indicates that spren are used in fabrials. Also, Syl's comment about spren being one individual would explain how a bond to Syl could give Kaladin at least some control over spren.

Interesting. This made me think of something, so I dug it out. In the scene where Shallan soulcasts the goblet into blood, she hears the voice of something, presumably a spren associated with the goblet.

I’ve been as I am for a great long time, the warm voice said. I sleep so much. I will change. Give me what you have.

“I don’t know what you mean! Please, help me!”

I will change.

Does this mean that spren of one kind can becore another kind? Or maybe, that there are spren that just exist as part of objects without really having a type? Kaladin's mother said

Spren appear when something changes—when fear appears, or when it begins to rain. They are the heart of change, and therefore the heart of all things.

That matches up with most of the spren that we see in the book: they nearly all involve some kind of activity. Rain, getting drunk, creating art, dying, rotting, burning, wind. Perhaps, if spren are the focus of magic on Roshar, it is the spren who are trapped and bored, longing to become active who are used as the focii?

[Rayonn]

I think there are (at least) two types of spren. There are the "Nahel" spren, which bond to people who act in certain ways in order to grant them access to magic. The other type are ordinary spren, which the surgebinders can control/direct with stormlight. This would mean that the bindspren that Syl and Kaladin observe when Kaladin sticks a rock to the wall are actually causing the rock to stick, rather than being attracted to the stickiness. Also, Navani's notebook indicates that spren are used in fabrials. Also, Syl's comment about spren being one individual would explain how a bond to Syl could give Kaladin at least some control over spren.

What if Kaladin is actually using two different magic systems, associated with the two types of spren?

The first is his Surgebinding itself: using stormlight as fuel to lash things. No idea what the focus for this would be, though Sir Read-a-Lot's suggestion that non-Nahel spren are involved seems plausible.

The second magic system is analogous to Hemalurgy in that its effect is to grant the powers of the first system. The focus of this system is either the Nahel spren, the Nahel bond itself, or the Ideals. In other words, by speaking and embodying the Ideals of the Knights Radiant, Kaladin has formed a bond with Syl, which has granted him Surgebinding powers. When he uses those powers, he's accessing a different system of magic, just as an Inquisitor, despite being a Hemalurgist, has access to Allomantic and sometimes Feruchemical powers.

If correct, this would imply that Szeth, who lacks a Nahel spren, is the 'normal' Surgebinder. He's like the lone Allomancer in a world of Hemalurgists. (Never mind that you can't have a world of Hemalurgists).

A few asides:

-- My feeling is that 'honorspren' refers to the whole class of spren that bond Radiants, not just the ones like Syl that bond Windrunners. (Otherwise 'protectionspren' would seem a better name.)

-- Just from the name, Voidbinding sounds like an interaction system between Honor and Odium, like Feruchemy is between Preservation and Ruin. Isn't Honor the one who binds things?

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I don't buy normal spren being the Focus. There's no interaction between him and the bindspren other than them being there, and that's one constant of a Focus, that it is deliberately affected by the magic user.

And, Rayonn, while there might be something to that, I'm inclined to think that Szeth is more likely the Hemalurgist in this scenario than the Allomancer, if that is indeed the sort of relationship we're talking about.

[Quantum Toast]

Interesting. This made me think of something, so I dug it out. In the scene where Shallan soulcasts the goblet into blood, she hears the voice of something, presumably a spren associated with the goblet.

I’ve been as I am for a great long time, the warm voice said. I sleep so much. I will change. Give me what you have.

“I don’t know what you mean! Please, help me!”

I will change.

This makes me wonder if all Surgebinding boils down to "pay spren to do stuff by giving them Stormlight".

[CabbageHead]

This makes me wonder if all Surgebinding boils down to "pay spren to do stuff by giving them Stormlight".

That is what I was thinking, but more than that, I was was wondering if it is bribing inert spren with stormlight to do stuff.

[Asha'man Logain]

This makes me wonder if all Surgebinding boils down to "pay spren to do stuff by giving them Stormlight".

I think that's definitely how fabrials work. However fabrials are a replacement for the magic system right? More machine than magic, and as such is probably at least less efficient, but based on the same basic principles. Also i'd love to see how Syl reacts to a powered fabrial.

[Unworldly]

Hi all,

I was re-reading Way of Kings last night when I came across something that may or may not be pertinent to this discussion, in the Prologue (Szeth's assassination of Gavilar, that is).

The first time Szeth uses a Lashing - in this case, he Lashes himself to the far end of a corridor, and uses the resulting 'fall' to kick two guards in the face simultaneously (I knew I was in for a good read when this was the first action scene, heh), it says this (emphasis mine):

Szeth blinked' date=' Lashing himself to that distant point down the hallway.[/quote']

Of course, you're all noticing what I did now - this is the same way that Shallan fixes an image in mind, how she takes her "Memories."

The way it's written there, it suggests that the blink is somehow directly applying the Lashing. I read through the rest of the chapter, and blinking is not mentioned again, but considering this is the first use of any of the magic systems in the book, I think this might be important.

If I'm not mistaken, the first time Shallan soulcasts on purpose (not the goblet -> blood bit, but later when she confronts Jasnah about not needing a fabrial to soulcast), she closes her eyes first - ostensibly to help her focus on talking to the Truthspren, but possibly the closing of one's eyes is actually an important part of the magic system?

Thoughts?

Edited September 11, 2011 by Unworldly

[Arcanist Lupus]

Hi all,

I was re-reading Way of Kings last night when I came across something that may or may not be pertinent to this discussion, in the Prologue (Szeth's assassination of Gavilar, that is).

The first time Szeth uses a Lashing - in this case, he Lashes himself to the far end of a corridor, and uses the resulting 'fall' to kick two guards in the face simultaneously (I knew I was in for a good read when this was the first action scene, heh), it says this (emphasis mine):

Of course, you're all noticing what I did now - this is the same way that Shallan fixes an image in mind, how she takes her "Memories."

The way it's written there, it suggests that the blink is somehow directly applying the Lashing. I read through the rest of the chapter, and blinking is not mentioned again, but considering this is the first use of any of the magic systems in the book, I think this might be important.

If I'm not mistaken, the first time Shallan soulcasts on purpose (not the goblet -> blood bit, but later when she confronts Jasnah about not needing a fabrial to soulcast), she closes her eyes first - ostensibly to help her focus on talking to the Truthspren, but possibly the closing of one's eyes is actually an important part of the magic system?

Thoughts?

I did consider that, but I don't think that blinking can be the focus.

Here's why: The focus is what the magic user chooses to distinguish what facet of the magic they are using. To clarify, a mistborn chooses which metal to burn. This determines the power they use. An Elantrian chooses which Aon to draw, and an Awakener chooses which command to say. Blinking doesn't seem like it's choosing anything.

Another (slightly seperate) idea: In Warbreaker, they say (or at least imply) that if you've reached the 10th Heightening you don't need to speak in order to awaken things. So if inaudible commands are possible, thought as a focus begins to seem less far-fetched.

Also, at the beginning of Mistborn, Vin used allomancy without realizing what she was doing. She "used Luck" without consciously choosing her focus. She was still using the focus, but it wasn't a conscious decision. So the focus for Surgebinding doesn't have to be obviously present or used for it to still be important.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Sir_Read-a-Lot

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Oh, she knew she was using her Luck, she just didn't know what it was.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Oh, she knew she was using her Luck, she just didn't know what it was.

Yes, but she didn't know she was using a specific type of Luck. She burned brass intentionally, maybe zinc as well, and Pewter unconsciously. But she never realized there were multiple types of Luck until Kelsier prompted her.