Orders of the Knights Radiant

[KChan]

Okay, so, some of you might have caught this interesting little tidbit on the Reddit Q&A:

Q: You've mentioned that other books in the Stormlight Archive will have different characters as their focus, is this linked to the 10 orders of the Knights Radiant? Or is this just coincidence?

A: It is linked. I may not be able to completely link it, but I'm going to try. The first book's symbol (on the front) is the symbol of the Windrunners.

Permalinks: Question, Answer

Now, this is interesting. Until now, I had just been assuming that they were the same number because 10 is a holy number on Roshar, and that was the end of it. But it appears there's something more to it. From this, I gather that there will be one book for each of the Orders of the Knights Radiant, starting with the Windrunners. But wait, isn't Kaladin a Windrunner? Read on:

Most of the main POV characters have been introduced. Each book will take one major character (Kaladin, Dalinar, Adolin, Jasnah, Shallan, Navani, Szeth, Taln)

Permalink: Here

So, here we have two things: first, it is confirmed - and has been - that each book will spotlight one main character. Second, it is confirmed that the number of books has to do with the Orders of the Knights Radiant, with heavy implication that there will be one book per Order.

Now, take a look at the list of characters Brandon has given us for book spotlights. Out of this list, Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan, and Szeth all have powers we know were used by the Knights Radiant. Dalinar seems like an obvious candidate to gain powers of his own at some point, and to a somewhat lesser extent, so does Adolin. Even Navani makes sense if you think about it, though I hadn't pegged her for it originally. And Taln is sort of a special case, being a Herald, but he most certainly has powers of his own.

Could this mean that each book will feature a member of the new Knights Radiant? One who will re-establish his or her Order? It's too early to tell, but I definitely think it's possible.

[MindCanaries]

This only works though if Szeth/Kaladin and Jasnah/Shallan have different powers, which it very much seems they do not. Though, given the complexity of Roshar's magic systems...it is possible.

[Chaos]

Well, see, MindCanaries, each order of Knights Radiant get two Surges. Windrunners (Kaladin) gets Gravity and Atmospheric Pressure. I think there's evidence of some variation with Shallan and Jasnah. Shallan has the Memories, which seem like they could be magical, and Jasnah had that bolt of lightning, and it was said that Soulcasting requires touch. Those could be related to their other Surges.

[MindCanaries]

Wouldn't that still put them in the same Order, though, putting us shy of a 1-book-per-order scheme?

[KChan]

Actually, no. What happens is, you have ten Surges, and each of those Surges contributes to two orders. So you have basically something like this:

Gravity + Pressure = Windrunners

Gravity + ??? = Szeth's Order

Soulcasting + Lightning = Jasnah's Order

Soulcasting + ??? (Possibly something Memory-oriented) = Shallan's Order

[MindCanaries]

That makes sense then, yeah. Can you point me towards the info stating each Order had two powers? I think I may have missed that.

[Chaos]

Sure thing. It was part of the 17th Shard interview with Brandon.

17th Shard: What can you tell us about the Knights Radiant?

Brandon: Um…what can I tell you that's not in the books?

17th Shard: A little more about them.

Brandon: There were 10 orders of Knights Radiant. Each order was based on a combination of two of the "smaller" magic systems in this world, so to speak. You combine two of them together and they each had something kind of "their own". So if you look at the map in the front of the magic system and you mark circles that include one large circle and two of the smaller circles in between, you can find the 10 orders right on there. The mini circles are the powers and the big circles represent the orders and the essences and things like that. So one big circle, two little circles equals an order of Knights Radiant.

The full interview is here:

And if you didn't know there's the massive Brandonothology which has everything: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ipqNXbkWKALSs8-O5m2XRLW5gxPDKFaI72l9imF-DWs/edit?hl=en_US

But you probably knew that already.

[Mad_Scientist]

Actually, no. What happens is, you have ten Surges, and each of those Surges contributes to two orders. So you have basically something like this:

Gravity + Pressure = Windrunners

Gravity + ??? = Szeth's Order

Soulcasting + Lightning = Jasnah's Order

Soulcasting + ??? (Possibly something Memory-oriented) = Shallan's Order

Except Szeth is an oddity. as he definitely has the powers of a Windrunner and uses both gravity and pressure. But I suspect that Szeth's current abilities are abnormal in some way and were not gotten in the normal Radiant way, and that if he ever does develop as a Radiant, he will have slightly different powers than he does now.

[Jaconis]

Actually, no. What happens is, you have ten Surges, and each of those Surges contributes to two orders. So you have basically something like this:

Gravity + Pressure = Windrunners

Gravity + ??? = Szeth's Order

Soulcasting + Lightning = Jasnah's Order

Soulcasting + ??? (Possibly something Memory-oriented) = Shallan's Order

I just read the Ars Arcanum in the back of the book to double check, and I'm not sure that Seth and Kaladin are a part of different orders. I thought that the Three Lashings, all of which Szeth can do, used both Gravity and Pressure surges. A Basic and Full Lashing both used Gravity Surges, and the Full Lashing used Pressure Surges. I thought the difference between the two characters was the way in which they were getting their powers (Kaladin = through Syl, Szeth = something we don't know).

Also, I'm not sure the lightning was anything different than ordinary Soulcasting. All we know that requires touch is Soulcasting with the fabrial. We have nothing that says the Surgebinding version of Soulcasting requires touch. The result of the lightning was nothing different than what we've seen with Soulcasting, so I just took it to still be the Transformation surge, and we don't know what Jasnah's other power is.

EDIT: damnation my slow fingers! Mad_Scientist beat me to it!

Edited September 2, 2011 by Jaconis

[KChan]

Except Szeth is an oddity. as he definitely has the powers of a Windrunner and uses both gravity and pressure. But I suspect that Szeth's current abilities are abnormal in some way and were not gotten in the normal Radiant way, and that if he ever does develop as a Radiant, he will have slightly different powers than he does now.

I like this explanation. This could have to do with his Oathstone, his lack of an honorspren, or both. Perhaps over the course of the story he'll "switch" power sources, so to speak, perhaps by breaking his oaths and then bonding with a spren.

Brandon also said he wasn't sure if he could match up the books/orders perfectly. Maybe this is one reason.

[CrazyRioter]

Brandon actually said in the goodreads com interview that Szeth is not a Radiant, something different is happening with Szeth. But he's using the same powerset as Kaladin. So yeah, we can ignore Szeth when discussing the Radiants.

Exactly what's up with Szeth can be discussed elsewhere, and will be eventually.

[KChan]

Interesting. I don't think I've seen that one; would you happen to have a link to it handy?

[CrazyRioter]

Interesting. I don't think I've seen that one; would you happen to have a link to it handy?

Goodreads.com interview

[mycoltbug]

Interesting. I don't think I've seen that one; would you happen to have a link to it handy?

"Jay wrote: "Do Szeth and Kaladin both belong to the same order of knights radiant?"

Szeth isn't actually in an order of Knights Radiant. Something different is happening with Szeth that people have already begun to guess. And Kaladin isn't yet a Knight Radiant, but the powers he uses are those of the Windrunners, one of the orders of the Knights Radiant. Szeth is using the same power set. So your phrasing is accurate to that extent. "

source

[Cheese Ninja]

I have a minor theory that Szeth's odd shardblade is the source of his Windrunner abilities, but no one else seems to like it. There's a lack of information when it comes to determining how abnormal his shardblade really is, and nothing in the story to tell us that there is another way to get Windrunner abilities. If it wasn't for the Goodreads interview, we wouldn't even know that.

[leinton]

One other thing to wonder is if the surges are unique to the two Orders that have them. I got the feeling from Dalinar's visions that it wasn't just the Knights Radiant who could use magic, they were just the best at it. So perhaps Szeth is just a normal magic user, even if the first in a long time?

[Eri]

I have a minor theory that Szeth's odd shardblade is the source of his Windrunner abilities, but no one else seems to like it.

Hey, I like your theory! Syl doesn't like Shardblades (or only some of them, but I doubt it) => they're evil => maybe they can also be used to steal someone else's magic, like (if you read that book, you know what I mean; if not, I won't spoil it for you)?

BTW why is it "odd"? I didn't notice.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

My theory (or the one I agree with) concerning how Szeth gets his powers is that it has something to do with the Oathstone. And I really like the idea that Szeth will somehow lose his clearly off Windrunning powers and become a full Radiant of another Order.

The big thing about Jasnah's lightning ability that calls it out to me as not being Soulcasting is that it's described as a Stormlight lightning bolt, and I'm pretty sure that Stormlight is not one of the Soulcasting Essences.

In relation to Jasnah's lightning power, and the discussing in the Roshar Focuses topic, I was looking up lightning on Wikipedia. One thing I found interesting is that one of the phenomena related to lightning is atmospheric pressure. This is one of the Windrunning surges, and if you concur with the idea that Radiant Orders overlap their surges (confirmed by Brandon in this quote from the 17th Shard interview:

There were 10 orders of Knights Radiant. Each order was based on a combination of two of the "smaller" magic systems in this world, so to speak. You combine two of them together and they each had something kind of "their own". So if you look at the map in the front of the magic system and you mark circles that include one large circle and two of the smaller circles in between, you can find the 10 orders right on there. The mini circles are the powers and the big circles represent the orders and the essences and things like that. So one big circle, two little circles equals an order of Knights Radiant.

it makes a lot of sense. Jasnah's Order would be one of the ones that shares with the Windrunners, Atmospheric Pressure being the surge they have in common, and Shallan's Order would be on the other side of Jasnah's, sharing the Transformation surge (aka Soulcasting) with Shallan's Memories being the other surge for her Order.

[Cheese Ninja]

Hey, I like your theory! Syl doesn't like Shardblades (or only some of them, but I doubt it) => they're evil => maybe they can also be used to steal someone else's magic, like (if you read that book, you know what I mean; if not, I won't spoil it for you)?

BTW why is it "odd"? I didn't notice.

Why I consider Szeth's shardblade odd:

His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others.

I'm pretty sure all the other Blades we've seen are described as being single-edged. And this quote says his is smaller than "most".

What would these men say if they knew that the man who emptied their chamber pot was a Shardbearer and a Surgebinder? A Windrunner, like the Radiants of old? The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

Sapphire is the color associated with the Windrunner Order.

He hadn’t yet demanded that Szeth relinquish the Blade—if he did so, he would discover the second of Szeth’s two forbidden actions. He was required to carry the Blade until his death, after which Shin Stone Shamans would recover it from whomever had killed him.

Was this your destiny? Do you wonder? Given that monstrosity of a Shardblade by your people, cast out and absolved of any sin your masters might require of you?”

Taravangian refers to it as a "monstrosity" despite it being smaller than most Shardblades.

I could be wrong, we might just need more detailed descriptions of shardblades and their effect on eyecolor to compare to Szeth's Blade. The Shin might consider all Shardblades "monstrosities", given their current usage of killing other humans, and the Shin view of killing. But if Szeth is getting his abilities in a different way than Kaladin, his only unique possessions are his Shardblade and his Oathstone. It's possible that he did something in the past to acquire the Windrunner ablities, and then got the Shardblade as punishment later. We know next to nothing about his Oathstone. Szeth almost decides to kill Taravangian in the bloodletting room, despite orders otherwise, so it doesn't confer absolute obedience. He seems to have an easy time recognizing it, but whether that's a magical effect or simple familiarity isn't stated. He says the Parshendi tossed it on the side of road when leaving Kholinar, and he had to pick it up and wait for someone to claim him, but he doesn't say whether he saw them toss it, or followed a sixth sense to find it.

it makes a lot of sense. Jasnah's Order would be one of the ones that shares with the Windrunners, Atmospheric Pressure being the surge they have in common, and Shallan's Order would be on the other side of Jasnah's, sharing the Transformation surge (aka Soulcasting) with Shallan's Memories being the other surge for her Order.

That wouldn't work, Jezrien's order doesn't border Palah's order. Shalash (Shallan's) and Palah (Jasnah's) border each other and share Soulcasting.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Cheese Ninja

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

The connections we have between Jasnah and Palah and Shallan and Shalash are tenuous at best, relying on a table that is described as flawed even by the in-world writer:

The preceding list is an imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences.

(Emphasis mine)

Also, our biggest association between Shallan and Shalash is that the glass became blood when she went to Shadesmar, when we know that Soulcasters can transform objects into any of the essences. However, this connection can be reversed, the case can be made for her to lean more toward Vev due to her unconscious Soulcasting converting an object made of glass. Also, her Memories appear to be oriented around her eyes, thus linking her to that Body Focus, also associated with Vev. The biggest criticism that I can think of is the personality traits, and their relation to the symbolheads, who ask for truths. However, this can be explained as a flaw in the table, not unprecedented as Peter has already made one correction to this part of the table, either in-world or out.

This would also mean that the Body Focus that Shallan and Jasnah have in common is the Soul, which makes sense since the magic they have in common is Soulcasting.

If you believe, as I do, that the Focus for Surgebinding is the Body Focuses (not a hard leap in logic, there), it reaffirms this position, since it would mean that the Focuses associated with Windrunning are Inhalation and Exhalation. Considering all the breathing described in the text during Kaladin and Szeth's fight scenes, that's not much of a stretch. But it would mean that the two that Jasnah and Kaladin have in common (atmospheric pressure) relies on Exhalation. If you look at the text where Jasnah using her Stormlightning power it reads like this:

The other two men fled in opposite directions. Jasnah took a deep breath, closing her eyes, lifting her hand above her head...

...Stormlight shot from Jasnah's hand like twin bolts of lightning, symmetrical.

(Way of Kings Hardcover, p534, emphasis mine)

It would seem that the Focus used here would be Inhalation, rather than Exhalation, but it must be remembered that in order to exhale, you have to inhale first. The binding between Orders here is tight given the right assumptions, and with how little direct evidence we have, assumptions are the only way to draw conclusions.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Silus - Shard of Flame

[CrazyRioter]

I think Shallan as Creative/Honest and thus associated with Shalash's order fits pretty well. And the fact that teh symbolheads ask her for a truth is pretty good objective evidence. Jasnah is less clear cut, she could be either Palah or Betab (wise/careful). Neither of which shares a power with Jezrien's order.

So yeah, I disagree with you and fully expect to have my house burnt down shortly.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I don't consider the personality section completely reliable, considering that human personalities tend to be a little more complex than boiling them down to a pair of attributes. If that doesn't convince you I'll refer you back to the "imperfect gathering" quote from my last post.

I'm more inclined to switch Creative/Honest with Chach (which would be Shallan's primary order, if you maintain the connection between Jasnah and Nan, considering that it shares a surge with Windrunning, Jasnah's frequent use of Smokestone, and the viable personality connection between her and Learned/Giving) and associate the symbolheads more with the surge between Chach and Vev rather than a particular Order. My reasoning is Elhokar being able to see them (in a mirror no less, establishing that not-quite-seeing relationship that Shallan also has with them, giving him that same connection with Vev), and his connection to the personality traits of Just/Confident (which I consider most viable because Peter specifically pointed them out as being in the wrong place in the Ars Arcanum). The switching of personality traits between Shash and Chach isn't completely necessary, as the case can be made for Brave/Obedient also applying to Shallan. Really, I consider the sight aspect of the symbolheads more reliable than the truth one, considering we don't know what they will require from Elhokar.

[Xavien]

Shallan has the Memories, which seem like they could be magical, and Jasnah had that bolt of lightning, and it was said that Soulcasting requires touch. Those could be related to their other Surges.

Soulcasting + ??? (Possibly something Memory-oriented) = Shallan's Order

I always thought of Memory as being analogous to the Thrill, more of a "cultural" ability related to the epoch kingdoms or even perhaps "spiritual dna". From Dalinar's first vision (ch 19 I believe) where he spoke with the Radiants we learned each of the 10 epoch kingdoms had a specific purpose to help against the Desolations. The purpose of the Alethi was to be the warriors, so my theory is the Thrill is something that they gained in order to improve their combat skills. Giving one kingdom Memory also makes sense: they can remember something perfectly until they transcribe it and thereby pass down knowledge to help future generations against Desolations. Shallan does this through art, but I wouldn't be surprised if she could keep an entire event as a Memory and write it down.

I'm not saying that everyone in Jah Keved would necessary have this, at this point we haven't met enough people from Jah Keved or enough about Memory. However, hair color is indicated as a trait of pure ancestry for the Alethi, the more black the more pure (it's even noted that the nobility has less dark hair because of their need to marry foreigners for strategic purposes). Shallan is described early on as having red hair which is an oddity and causes her to stand out. If these abilities are genetic (spiritual or physical) it could be something that has been lost over the years through intermarriage and Shallan just happened to get the traits for it. It could also be an ability from another culture entirely.

The idea that each of the 10 epoch kingdoms had a cultural trait outside of the Radiants that would help them through the Desolations makes a certain deal of sense to me. Particularly if those kingdoms became extremely specialized. We just haven't seen enough of them yet as so far every main viewpoint character we have seen is Alethi except Shallan.

Also so far all the powers we have seen related to the Radiants/Soulcasting involved the use of Stormlight and sometimes specific types of gems. I don't recall anything from the books where Shallan needed Stormlight or a type of gem to create a Memory.

Side theory: abilities such as Thrill and Memory are related to a person's Calling. The Calling in the book sounded like it was something you could pick and then later change, but based on Kaladin and how he feels whenever he picks up a weapon it could also be something baser.

[Chaos]

Why I consider Szeth's shardblade odd: I'm pretty sure all the other Blades we've seen are described as being single-edged. And this quote says his is smaller than "most". Sapphire is the color associated with the Windrunner Order.

Taravangian refers to it as a "monstrosity" despite it being smaller than most Shardblades.

I could be wrong, we might just need more detailed descriptions of shardblades and their effect on eyecolor to compare to Szeth's Blade. The Shin might consider all Shardblades "monstrosities", given their current usage of killing other humans, and the Shin view of killing. But if Szeth is getting his abilities in a different way than Kaladin, his only unique possessions are his Shardblade and his Oathstone. It's possible that he did something in the past to acquire the Windrunner ablities, and then got the Shardblade as punishment later. We know next to nothing about his Oathstone. Szeth almost decides to kill Taravangian in the bloodletting room, despite orders otherwise, so it doesn't confer absolute obedience. He seems to have an easy time recognizing it, but whether that's a magical effect or simple familiarity isn't stated. He says the Parshendi tossed it on the side of road when leaving Kholinar, and he had to pick it up and wait for someone to claim him, but he doesn't say whether he saw them toss it, or followed a sixth sense to find it.

That wouldn't work, Jezrien's order doesn't border Palah's order. Shalash (Shallan's) and Palah (Jasnah's) border each other and share Soulcasting.

I found your eye color argument immensely persuasive. I now like this theory as well--good job.

And I agree with Silus--we don't explicitly know where the Transformation connects to. The primary/secondary attributes may mean something, or they may mean something else.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Chaos

[pdxtrent]

CheeseNinja, I am with you that the blade that Szeth has is the source of his Windrunner powers. And I think this is because he has an Dawnshard instead of a simpler Shardblade. We know the Heralds abandoned their weapons, and that the Dawnblades can be wielded by someone other than a Herald. And that Taln says at the beginning that they are more than regular Shardblades.

Whats interesting is Tarvangian referring to it as a monstrosity. Is this because the Shin think it's monstrous, or because Tarvangian does?

Edit to add:

In the picture of Nalan wielding the Dawnshard:

http://brandonsanderson.com/images/wok/tWoK_EPHEMERA-4_RELIEF-webres.jpg

Notice that it's distinctly double edged?

Edited September 12, 2011 by pdxtrent