Kaladin is more honourable than Dalinar?

[Everstorm Entropy]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

Until Adolin defines his own personal code, we can't really quantify things. He has tried to adhere to his father's code and had lapses due to things that he could not abide. Once he's found his own code, I think he'll be pretty high up on the list. 

As far as "Honorable" is, by the definition shown so far, the most Honorable character is easily Szeth. He will stand by his chosen code of conduct to the detriment of all else. Himself included. 

That is a good point.  Honor is an adherence to what is perceived as "right".  And no one is more adhered to their own perceived codes than Szeth.  Even though everything he is forced to do pains him, he does it because somehow he believes that upholding those codes is the right choice.

Honor isn't always a good thing; it very much depends on which codes are being upheld.

[Velvet Thunder]

5 minutes ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

That is a good point.  Honor is an adherence to what is perceived as "right".  And no one is more adhered to their own perceived codes than Szeth.  Even though everything he is forced to do pains him, he does it because somehow he believes that upholding those codes is the right choice.

Honor isn't always a good thing; it very much depends on which codes are being upheld.

Honorable is always open for interpretation.

Would you say that Szeth is very obedient and loyal... perhaps to an extreme? I would.. 

Which happens to coincide with a certain order, despite the order with whom he appears to currently be interacting with.. 

[Everstorm Entropy]

7 minutes ago, Velvet Thunder said:

Honorable is always open for interpretation.

Would you say that Szeth is very obedient and loyal... perhaps to an extreme? I would.. 

Which happens to coincide with a certain order, despite the order with whom he appears to currently be interacting with.. 

Yes, I certainly would say Szeth is loyal to an extreme.  To me, the end does not justify the means.  Slaughtering people and doing other unspeakable things all to uphold the codes of a society that has damned you... that's not my idea of honor at all.  But it is Szeth's idea of honor.

So, yeah, I'd definitely agree that Honor is always open to interpretation and dependent on that particular person's view.  And Szeth certainly does fit within a certain order... Book 3 can't come soon enough.

[the winter system]

1 hour ago, Scriptorian said:

Misjasnahism?

Hahaa yes this

[stonedshaman]

I think the word we are all striving for here might be classism

[forgedpig]

The thing is Kalidan has reason to hate the light eyes. It's not like he hates them because of their eye color he hates them because of what they represent and what was done to him and the people he cares about.  

[Calderis]

Just now, forgedpig said:

The thing is Kalidan has reason to hate the light eyes. It's not like he hates them because of their eye color he hates them because of what they represent and what was done to him and the people he cares about.  

Except he transfers his feelings that are legitimate, whether caused through personal experience or societal problems, and applies them to all lighteyes without knowing them individually. 

When you judge an entire group of people based solely on a physical characteristic that they happen to have been born with... That's racism. 

[geralt]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

Except he transfers his feelings that are legitimate, whether caused through personal experience or societal problems, and applies them to all lighteyes without knowing them individually. 

When you judge an entire group of people based solely on a physical characteristic that they happen to have been born with... That's racism. 

Kaladin hates lighteyes because in Alethi culture they are above darkeyes, if instead of having light eyes they all carried a carrot in their pockets he'd still discriminate them. Therefore, I'd say it's more of a class issue than one based on race. Like, I'm pretty confident Kaladin wouldn't hate Iriali people and they all have light eyes, don't they? 

On the other hand, I think an argument could be easily made on how most of the other main characters in the story (including Dalinar) are racist as they consider themselves to be superior to darkeyes for the sole fact of having light eyes. Jasnah is probably the only one who doesn't...

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, geralt said:

Kaladin hates lighteyes because in Alethi culture they are above darkeyes, if instead of having light eyes they all carried a carrot in their pockets he'd still discriminate them. Therefore, I'd say it's more of a class issue than one based on race. Like, I'm pretty confident Kaladin wouldn't hate Iriali people and they all have light eyes, don't they? 

On the other hand, I think an argument could be easily made on how most of the other main characters in the story (including Dalinar) are racist as they consider themselves to be superior to darkeyes for the sole fact of having light eyes. Jasnah is probably the only one who doesn't...

And in Alethi culture class and "race" are so interconnected as to be indistinguishable. A "racist" culture forces those viewed as inferior into a lower class. 

These two being tied together in a society is unfortunately all too normal. 

As for Kaladin, if he were to meet an Iriali, their other distinctive traits would probably tip him off that they aren't what he has formed a prejudice against. But what of someone of a non-vorin society who still fits the description he expects? 

The implication that you cannot be racist against a non-oppresed group is hypocritical. Yes Systematic Racism is a problem, and that is precisely what Vorinism is. But if someone is placed above you in such a society, and you hate them due to their appearance, they may not feel the effects of that prejudice, but it does not negate that it exists. 

Change in such a society cannot happen if only one side changes. People on both sides need to recognize the problems inherent to the system and work to change the systemic problems and to create understanding between the two groups. 

Whether you are in the group that is oppressed, or the group that is enacting the oppression, if of only one group attempts change, it will be distrusted and fought against and will not be able to overcome the moment inherent to an active system. 

Saying that it is impossible to be racist against the group in power is almost synonymous to saying that people aren't racist, but societies are. 

It's a self defeating idea that focuses solely on the effects created by the problem, while ignoring the root of the problem. 

[+Extesian]

I...woah.

Am I the only one who thinks it ironic (not just here but generally) when people start putting labels on which kind of discrimination is the worst? In my mind, any active discrimination that is based on factors irrelevant to a person's character is terrible. Doesn't matter if it's racism, sexism, aggressive nationalism. It's all appalling. I'm not diminishing racism of course. But to imply that discrimination based on eye color is any better than discrimination based ion skin color diminishes the effect of prejudice on a person being discriminated against. 

I think that was Brandon's point in inventing a new type of prejudice. To demonstrate that the source of prejudice is less important than the effect on people. 

[Calderis]

@Extesian that's kind of my point. 

It doesn't matter why discrimination happens or how entrenched it is. There's no good reason for it regardless of what name is attached to it. 

And it's never appropriate to justify that discrimination for any reason. 

Sorry for being so... Vocal. 

[+Extesian]

Nah man I'm furiously agreeing with you. And i understand how disgusting and damaging to humanity racism has been, I understand the sensitivity about it. But all prejudice is bad and that's why Brandon is brilliant for inventing one as allegory for all the terrible forms that exist irl.

I certainly didn't want to imply anyone shouldn't express their opinion though!

[king of nowhere]

23 hours ago, Scriptorian said:

To the address the topic at hand, I don't think either use of racism is actually applicable to the lighteyes/darkeyes situation. They're not really different "ethnicities", it's just a caste system with weird genetics making the distinction between the two castes physically obvious.

 

Sure, Kaladin has what one could easily call "predijuce" towards lighteyes, but he'd still have a problem with the ruling class if they didn't have a cosmetic distinction. So "racism" never felt like the right word to me.

Again, "weird genetics making the distinction between the two castes physically obvious" is 97% the layman definition of ethnicity.

Ok, scientifically we may want to look at DNA, and find that there are people very similar physically but very different genetically, and viceversa, and in fact all the ethnicities who share the greatest genetic differences are african and most wouldn't see any difference between them (that's because humans went out of africa some 50000 years ago, so all non-african ethnicities share common ancestors no farther back than that point, while african ethnicities may have split earlier).

But really, we all know that when it comes down to it, what really matters is the color of the skin, or the shape of the hairs, or the eyes, or some other easily-recongized physical trait that convenientely allows to distinguish between "us" and "them".

And while yes, kaladin hatred of lighteyes stems from them being the ruling class, the thing is that whenever kaladin sees someone with light eyes, he assumes the worst about him. I think. Have we ever seen him interact meaningfully with tenners? they are not ruling class by any possible definition, and if kaladin was fine with them, then it would be something about the ruling class. If he spontaneously assumed the worst in a lighteye tenner but not in a whealty first nanh merchant, then I'd call him truly and strictly racist.

 

EDIT:

Quote

On the other hand, I think an argument could be easily made on how most of the other main characters in the story (including Dalinar) are racist as they consider themselves to be superior to darkeyes for the sole fact of having light eyes. Jasnah is probably the only one who doesn't...

Dalinar has also shown pretty egalitarian views, rewarding merit alone. Adolin also never discriminated. We've never seen Navani interact with darkeyes, but I'm pretty sure if she talked with a skilled darkeye engineer, she would be ok.

On the other hand, Kaladin doesn't seem to have anything against ardents, regardless of eye color. So it could be more of a classism  than racism thing, with the physical trait being associated to class and therefore taking the blame. but yeah, we're really going into semantics there. kaladin is prejudiced, and that's that. many other characters are also prejudiced. I argued in another thread that we must cut some slack to people living in a prejudiced society, because they can't be blamed for believing true something they have no way of knowing false, so I should give some free passes here. Kaladin's prejudice only rankles me when he directs it at people he does know (adolin, mostly) and about whom he should therefore know better

Edited July 21, 2017 by king of nowhere

[Everstorm Entropy]

I wanted to circle back to the notion that Szeth is the most honorable.  I've been rereading a lot of Szeth chapters and came across this very telling quote.  This is when Szeth realizes Taravangian holds his Oathstone and is shown the king's hospital of death.

Quote

"You will still yourself," Taravangian said.  "And you will return to my side."

Szeth did as his master commanded.  What were a few more deaths?  Just another set of screams to haunt him.  He could hear them now, coming from beneath the beds, behind the furntire.

Or I could kill him. Szeth thought. I could stop this.

He nearly did it.  But honor prevailed, for the moment.

"But honor prevailed," gives me chills.  It says so much about Szeth's loyalty to his own ideals, even if it means his own suffering and the deaths of others.  He perceives following the Oathstone as the most honorable thing he could do with his life, and he sticks to that relentlessly.

[Gloomspren]

On 7/19/2017 at 4:38 PM, Andy92 said:

That depends on whether or not you view vigilante justice as honorable or not. 

I definitely think Adolin's decision (because it was a conscious decision no matter how "tired" he was) has put him down in the honor rankings. While I am all for vigilante justice and Sadeas dying bc he is a major creep, I don't think this fits with the gist of what honor seems to be in this book, which is protecting even those they hate and uniting people and yada yada.

So my ranking would be Dalinar at the top because he has Honor's spren/weird piece of him and has been exemplified as a character even Kaladin looks up to and wants to emulate, then Kaladin because he protected Elhokar, then Adolin. 

Why not talk about Shallan too while we're at it? Is she honorable for killing her father? He had just murdered his wife and crippled his son, so I would say yeah. And for killing her mother? Yeah she tried to kill her first. But I think she becomes less honorable purely because a huge part of her powers and character is lying. Honorspren hate Cryptics, her spren. So idk if she should be lower or higher than Adolin, but closer to the bottom. 

On 7/20/2017 at 8:01 AM, winter devotion said:

Racism =/= bias against a specific ethnic group. Racism = systemic oppression of a specific ethnic group. You can't be racist to white people, and you can't be racist to lighteyes. I figured this was obvious? 

Kaladin hating all lighteyes is definitely prejudiced because he projects it onto all lighteyes. I think the main reason why people say you can't be racist to white people is because most of the time poc are just pointing out flaws with white privelege and the system and are called racist against white people. If someone vehemently hated white people and thought every one of them was a horrible human being simply for being white that is racism. Just like Kaladin thinking every lighteyed person is horrible because of their light eyes. BUT I don't think this is crazy awful because this plot point was being rectified even at the end of WoR, Shallan is changing his mind about it, and he saved Elhokar, and I think he isn't completely out of this spiral but I do think that maybe his journey to visit Roshone in Book 3 will maybe clear some things up (or make them worse, who knows with Brandon!) 

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, Gloomspren said:

I definitely think Adolin's decision (because it was a conscious decision no matter how "tired" he was) has put him down in the honor rankings. While I am all for vigilante justice and Sadeas dying bc he is a major creep, I don't think this fits with the gist of what honor seems to be in this book, which is protecting even those they hate and uniting people and yada yada.

So my ranking would be Dalinar at the top because he has Honor's spren/weird piece of him and has been exemplified as a character even Kaladin looks up to and wants to emulate, then Kaladin because he protected Elhokar, then Adolin. 

Why not talk about Shallan too while we're at it? Is she honorable for killing her father? He had just murdered his wife and crippled his son, so I would say yeah. And for killing her mother? Yeah she tried to kill her first. But I think she becomes less honorable purely because a huge part of her powers and character is lying. Honorspren hate Cryptics, her spren. So idk if she should be lower or higher than Adolin, but closer to the bottom. 

You're focusing on the code of the Windrunners and conflating that with the books definition of honor. 

As has been pointed out by myself and others, Szeth followed none of those rules and yet stood by his own personal code perfectly.

Adolin needs to find his code before this question can be answered. 

And Shallan... The Lightweavers are an oddity. But by their structure I actually think she's not a very good one. Their focus on "Truths" rather than  oaths means they lack any real guidelines. It all seems to be structured around being honest with themselves, and frankly she's terrible at that. 

[+eveorjoy]

Those who think Dalinar more honorable than Kaladin have not considered (or read about) Dalinar's Blackthorn past. I think his flashbacks in Oathbringer will make you reconsider your position. Without giving away spoilers, the scenes I read in "Unfettered 2" show a very different Dalinar from the one we know now. Dalinar as a young man before he followed the codes. However, the books so far suggest his less honorable past. Dalinar has said a few times that he was very close to killing his own brother. How honorable is that? I don't want to say too much more because this isn't the Oathbringer forum, but the truth is, we don't know Dalinar's bloody past of knives in the back yet. You know him twenty years later after he has made the mistakes of youth,  adopted the codes, and memorized the Way of Kings in honor of the brother he was too drunk to save. This would be a question best considered after the next book. 

[Gloomspren]

22 minutes ago, Calderis said:

You're focusing on the code of the Windrunners and conflating that with the books definition of honor. 

As has been pointed out by myself and others, Szeth followed none of those rules and yet stood by his own personal code perfectly.

Adolin needs to find his code before this question can be answered. 

And Shallan... The Lightweavers are an oddity. But by their structure I actually think she's not a very good one. Their focus on "Truths" rather than  oaths means they lack any real guidelines. It all seems to be structured around being honest with themselves, and frankly she's terrible at that. 

I also think I was mixing being honorable up with being "good", thank you for pointing that out. It is more doing what one thinks is morally correct and sticking to that. Following that, I still do not think Szeth is doing what he thinks is ethical- he seemed to hate that he had to kill and felt extreme guilt over killing so many people but does it due to his code of obeying whoever has his Oathstone. I think his Truthless code is the opposite of what he thinks is ethically correct, making him not the most honorable but the least. 

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Gloomspren said:

I also think I was mixing being honorable up with being "good", thank you for pointing that out. It is more doing what one thinks is morally correct and sticking to that. Following that, I still do not think Szeth is doing what he thinks is ethical- he seemed to hate that he had to kill and felt extreme guilt over killing so many people but does it due to his code of obeying whoever has his Oathstone. I think his Truthless code is the opposite of what he thinks is ethically correct, making him not the most honorable but the least. 

And I think that is the real difference between morality and honor. 

He is perfectly honorable, following a code of conduct he has accepted, even when he believes that the things he is doing are horrific and wrong. 

He has cast aside his morals to uphold his honor. Even while it tears him apart mentally and emotionally. 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Calderis

[king of nowhere]

24 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Those who think Dalinar more honorable than Kaladin have not considered (or read about) Dalinar's Blackthorn past.

I did read those scenes (not those in unfettered, but a few other released oathbringer flashbacks). And yes, dalinar was a very different person back then; a bloodthirsty warlord, and the only reason I'm not callling him a horrible human being is that I'm cutting some slack because he's a product of his own culture.

But he's changed, a lot. So much that I'm not holding up his past against him.

[Calderis]

Dalinar is Honorable in the timeframe we see him. 

The things he has done in the past were not, and his internal thoughts show he is very much aware of that fact. 

As more of his past actions come to light, the question will be put more to the forefront on if his current actions are capable of atoning for a life spent in butchery and excess, but these have no real bearing on the question of if he is Honorable now. He is. 

The Question of the schism between who he was and who he is, is another thing entirely. 

I personally think that his change is admirable, and shows that even the most depraved individuals are capable of improvement. The constant self doubt and guilt and regret will punish him for his past actions, and those very feelings are evidence that the internal change is real. 

If he were the same man, throwing on a facade to appear more moral and just, those feelings would be absent. 

[+eveorjoy]

22 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I did read those scenes (not those in unfettered, but a few other released oathbringer flashbacks). And yes, dalinar was a very different person back then; a bloodthirsty warlord, and the only reason I'm not callling him a horrible human being is that I'm cutting some slack because he's a product of his own culture.

But he's changed, a lot. So much that I'm not holding up his past against him.

If that is the standard then Kaladin and Dalinar are equally honorable.

I love Dalinar, but I don't think he is more honorable than Kaladin. Still, Kaladin being considered more honorable by Tor is likely connected to his order and his Honorspren. Kaladin is now at a place where he would defend even someone he hates if that is what he is supposed to do. Yes, Dalinar would do the same, but he hasn't worn an oath to do that, and I don't think the codes demand such either.  Yes, you aren't supposed to turn on an ally in battle, but what if they aren't an ally or an enemy, just an awful person in need of protection.  Kaladin would by the demands of his oaths be required to protect such a person. Dalinar has only sworn to unite and not divide. What if you uniting requires allowing those who do not wish to unite to fall by the wayside? Not to say Dalinar would do that but he is not under the same obligations as Kaladin, which I think is Tors reasoning for holding Kaladin up as the Honorable one.

It seems to me, some here are judging Kaladin as less honorable because he is imperfect and Dalinar seems to be honest to the point of harming himself. I disagree. Dalinar was not completely honest with Amaram in "Words of Radiance." Kaladin, as of the end of Words of Radiance, is as honorable as Dalinar. If you are judging by the standard of the stupid mistakes of youth, then Dalinar would need to be judged by the same standard. I have read the Unfettered flashback and Tor has read all of Oathbringer. Dalinar has done far more dishonorable things, in his youth, than Kaladin. Now I agree my argument hindered by the inability to discuss spoilers, but all throughout The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance Brandon alluded to Dalinar's less honorable past. Until we have read Oathbringer we cannot say whether Kaladin or Dalinar is more honorable. 

[king of nowhere]

40 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Dalinar is Honorable in the timeframe we see him. 

The things he has done in the past were not, and his internal thoughts show he is very much aware of that fact. 

As more of his past actions come to light, the question will be put more to the forefront on if his current actions are capable of atoning for a life spent in butchery and excess, but these have no real bearing on the question of if he is Honorable now. He is. 

The Question of the schism between who he was and who he is, is another thing entirely. 

I personally think that his change is admirable, and shows that even the most depraved individuals are capable of improvement. The constant self doubt and guilt and regret will punish him for his past actions, and those very feelings are evidence that the internal change is real. 

If he were the same man, throwing on a facade to appear more moral and just, those feelings would be absent. 

I wouldn't call him "most depraved", unless I missed some of the flashbacks that gave a different picture of him. He was bloodthirsty, but he always had several redeeming traits. He was fair and meritocratic; his elite guard is made of both light and darkeyes. He shows no qualms about killing foes in battle, and can resort to questionable tactics, but I've not seen him deliberatly hurt civilians, or betray an ally, or stuff like that. For the standards of bloodthirsty warlords, he wasn't a bad person. I would say his core personality remained the same, only his goals became more noble and he learned some political skills.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

I wouldn't call him "most depraved", unless I missed some of the flashbacks that gave a different picture of him. He was bloodthirsty, but he always had several redeeming traits. He was fair and meritocratic; his elite guard is made of both light and darkeyes. He shows no qualms about killing foes in battle, and can resort to questionable tactics, but I've not seen him deliberatly hurt civilians, or betray an ally, or stuff like that. For the standards of bloodthirsty warlords, he wasn't a bad person. I would say his core personality remained the same, only his goals became more noble and he learned some political skills.

That comment wasn't meant about him specifically. I just mean that anyone can change if it's what they want. 

Most people don't want to change. 

That said, I haven't read the Thrill (Unfettered II), but I have a very strong feeling that Dalinar's flashbacks are going to go to much darker places than we expect. 

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

That said, I haven't read the Thrill (Unfettered II), but I have a very strong feeling that Dalinar's flashbacks are going to go to much darker places than we expect. 

Well, if Shallans flashbacks are anything to go by, you are right.