Crafting the Bands of Mourning?

[+tabitreader]

I listen to these books, so the spelling will contain errors. Huge fan of the Cosmere and Brandon's work outside of it. I don't have the ability to quote various texts within the books that my betters have. Please help with a simple question, that may not be so simple to answer completely.

Who crafted the Bands of Mourning?

Before you answer, I would like to clarify what answer I would like.

The Lord Ruler had pierced himself with metal bands, 2 feruchemical/allomantic bracers that went between his Ulna and Radius bones of the arm. Pretty good place to put those, however, chopping his arms off would have killed him alot easier than Vin and Preservation's method, but there's no story without doing it Ruin's way.  Nevermind that small tangent, besides, I like the story just how it is. It was said in Ascension that there was only a small trace of Atium in those 2 bracers, so it's worth was tiny to feed Elend's empire.

300 years later in the Alloy Era (no I don't call it AoL because that's an internet company that mailed me CD's and trash all the time) Everything has spiritual context due to being sermonized by the Survivor church. Now they are the fabled Bands of Mourning, but knowing "there's always another secret" I doubt that what Marasi thought to be The Lord Ruler's Bands of Mourning are actually his. 

So, who crafted all The Bands of Mourning? How were they all crafted?

Yes, both sets, the Lord Ruler's and the Alloy Era's.

Edited February 12, 2017 by tabitreader

[Yezrien]

Well... Lord Ruler's metalminds were presumably crafted by the Lord Ruler.

And the one that Wax and Wayne found was made by Kelsier. Was that not obvious in the audiobook?

As for how, it looks like it's just a bunch of metalminds welded together. I don't think think there's a secret beyond that. The important one is nicrosil, which allows all the others to be tapped, and also makes you a temporary mistborn.

(Also, pretty sure this is in the wrong forum. You should probably ask this in Mistborn or Cosmere Q&A.)

[Chaos]

This is not the correct forum for this; you are looking for the Mistborn forum, where book discussion occurs. 17S Discussion is for site related issues.

[+tabitreader]

Thanks Belzedar for the response.

The lord rulers bands presumably didn't have the Nicrosil bit, wasn't identified as an alloy yet. Only 11 metals were known back then. Also, 1020+ years before the lord ruler died, how was a pack man able to craft these truly unique items for himself? Did he use his waning shard power to fashion them?

Same situation for Kelsier's bands, did Harmony just poof them into existence for him? 

This topic hasn't come up very much since the book came out which is mostly why I am asking. I don't want to yank on Brandons work, it's fiction and will unravel at some point with enough pressure. Am I the only one curious about this plot item? 

[Tazren]

1 hour ago, tabitreader said:

Thanks Belzedar for the response.

The lord rulers bands presumably didn't have the Nicrosil bit, wasn't identified as an alloy yet. Only 11 metals were known back then. 

 

Didn't the Lord Ruler get a great understanding of the Metallic Arts when he was using the Well? So he would've known about all the metals. 10 metals were publicly known back then, but the Inquisitors knew about Aluminum as well. Doesn't feel farfetched that TLR would've known about Nicrosil and how to create it. 

[+tabitreader]

Great point, he afterall, left descriptions on those 5 plates, the poor man's Atium and such. He did have a Hemalurgical workshop at the end of his reign. 

[+robardin]

On 2/13/2017 at 4:07 AM, Tazren said:

Didn't the Lord Ruler get a great understanding of the Metallic Arts when he was using the Well? So he would've known about all the metals. 10 metals were publicly known back then, but the Inquisitors knew about Aluminum as well. Doesn't feel farfetched that TLR would've known about Nicrosil and how to create it. 

But why would he have created something like it? His whole thing was to make himself the only one capable of such Allomantic strength, not to mention the only Fullborn. He mutilated and all but eradicated his own people, the Terris, just to prevent Compounders from occuring naturally. I don't see him creating a way to allow Joe Schmo to become a temporary (but rechargeable) Fullborn.

I think the whole legend of TLR's arm bracers being an artifact that would grant you all his powers was a blind set up by (of course) Kelsier, to seed the idea of such a thing in people's minds, when in fact the "bands" were not armbands at all, and never were. While it's not impossible that TLR used his armbands for more than just the atiumminds of compounded youth he needed to stay alive, there is no reason he'd have made them an unkeyed atiummind, or to have stored a nicrosilmind with the ability to tap it, in the same artifact.

 

[The One Who Connects]

On 2/13/2017 at 3:07 AM, Tazren said:

Doesn't feel farfetched that TLR would've known about Nicrosil and how to create it. 

The main problem with that is the fact that he hid the other metals existence (excepting the metal plates) They were hidden from public knowledge so that the Inquisitors could not learn of them to use against him when Ruin escaped. I just feel like he wouldn't use a figurative "new" metal with Inquisitor's around and doing their own experimenting. I feel like it would raise questions.

[Tazren]

5 hours ago, robardin said:

But why would he have created something like it? His whole thing was to make himself the only one capable of such Allomantic strength, not to mention the only Fullborn. He mutilated and all but eradicated his own people, the Terris, just to prevent Compounders from occuring naturally. I don't see him creating a way to allow Joe Schmo to become a temporary (but rechargeable) Fullborn.

I think the whole legend of TLR's arm bracers being an artifact that would grant you all his powers was a blind set up by (of course) Kelsier, to seed the idea of such a thing in people's minds, when in fact the "bands" were not armbands at all, and never were. While it's not impossible that TLR used his armbands for more than just the atiumminds of compounded youth he needed to stay alive, there is no reason he'd have made them an unkeyed atiummind, or to have stored a nicrosilmind with the ability to tap it, in the same artifact.

 

I merely pointed out that TLR should've known that Nicrosil existed, and what it did, and been more than capable of creating an artifact like the Bands of Mourning, as long as it was possible for him to mine or alloy all the metals. 

[+tabitreader]

6 hours ago, robardin said:

But why would he have created something like it? His whole thing was to make himself the only one capable of such Allomantic strength, not to mention the only Fullborn. He mutilated and all but eradicated his own people, the Terris, just to prevent Compounders from occuring naturally. I don't see him creating a way to allow Joe Schmo to become a temporary (but rechargeable) Fullborn.

I think the whole legend of TLR's arm bracers being an artifact that would grant you all his powers was a blind set up by (of course) Kelsier, to seed the idea of such a thing in people's minds, when in fact the "bands" were not armbands at all, and never were. While it's not impossible that TLR used his armbands for more than just the atiumminds of compounded youth he needed to stay alive, there is no reason he'd have made them an unkeyed atiummind, or to have stored a nicrosilmind with the ability to tap it, in the same artifact.

 

So, it's agreed that the Alloy Era bracers aren't the Lord Ruler's construction? Makes the most sense to me given his paranoia. How TLR made them still eludes me, perhaps a WOB will reveal this.

So who, how were the Alloy Era bracers made? The Fullborn Marsh with Kelsier's help? 

 

[Jondesu]

4 hours ago, tabitreader said:

So, it's agreed that the Alloy Era bracers aren't the Lord Ruler's construction? Makes the most sense to me given his paranoia. How TLR made them still eludes me, perhaps a WOB will reveal this.

Agreed, but the ones TLR used don't seem to have been particularly significant.  There was atium for his stored age, and I suspect traces of several other metals to make sure he always had access to some stores (gold, steel, iron would all be pretty useful), but he probably wasn't doing anything else all that funky with them.

4 hours ago, tabitreader said:

So who, how were the Alloy Era bracers made? The Fullborn Marsh with Kelsier's help?

Marsh isn't a Fullborn from what I know, just still granted his powers from Hemalurgy.  Kelsier is theorized to have regained his physical form with Feruchemical powers in addition to being Mistborn, making him a Fullborn, and he created the "Bands of Mourning" that they're searching for on his own.  I doubt Marsh even knew they existed.

[Andy92]

I also thought it seemed strange to believe TLR would make his bands an unkeyed metalmind. A 1,000 year dictator making his power usable by literally anyone who could get their hands on it seems like a bit of a dumb idea...lol 

Edited February 15, 2017 by Andy92

[Sheridan_rd]

It is stated in BoM that the enhancement metals were extremely rare during the final empire.  So the LR might not have the forsight to have Nicrosil near Lutheral.  Cause a keyed Nicrosil Mind will allow a full born to tap their Alcomancy multiple times over.

Such a Metal Mind might be usable by an Aluminum Ferring but not the mythical Bands of Mourning for anyone.

Hopefully we will learn in future books why Kelsier made the Alloy Era Bands!

[Yata]

On 15/2/2017 at 6:32 AM, Sheridan_rd said:

It is stated in BoM that the enhancement metals were extremely rare during the final empire.  So the LR might not have the forsight to have Nicrosil near Lutheral.  Cause a keyed Nicrosil Mind will allow a full born to tap their Alcomancy multiple times over.

Cadmius and Chromium are metals quite impossible to mine without industrial tech. Notice also that Rashek seems to not actual know (or retain great information) about the actual use of the metals...One of his metal plate show he need research to actual gasp what the metals do.

On 15/2/2017 at 6:32 AM, Sheridan_rd said:

Such a Metal Mind might be usable by an Aluminum Ferring but not the mythical Bands of Mourning for anyone.

Actually you will need a Trueself+Soulbearer to use a keyed Nicrosilmind (regular metalmind) a TrueSelf is uncapable of tapping Nicrosil and a Soulbearer is uncapable of tapping others' metalmind. Of course at TLR's time, all the feruchemist were Full Feruchemist so everyone of them have both the powers. Sure they need the knowledge to performe the Identity trick, but it was an high risk.

On 15/2/2017 at 6:32 AM, Sheridan_rd said:

Hopefully we will learn in future books why Kelsier made the Alloy Era Bands!

Of course no sure answer but I don't think Kelsier is a Fullborn (or a quite one) of his own, I don't know neither if he retain his own Mistborn status...The Bands are simply the masterpiece of a research branch spawned by his main research project (the way for him to return)

Edited February 17, 2017 by Yata

[+tabitreader]

20 hours ago, robardin said:

 

I'm having trouble replying to my own topic via mobile browser.

Re: Jondesu

Marsh had been augmented the most of all the inquisitors during Hero of Ages with hemalurgical spiked terrismen/women taken from Terris. When Vin passed her earring spike through Marsh's brain in Yomens room, Marsh strangled Vin and she commented that his wrist grew thick as a thigh with Ferruchemical aided strength. Later Elend calls Marsh another Lord Ruler by having over 20+ additional spikes than a normal inquisitor. Fullborn Marsh.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

10 minutes ago, tabitreader said:

I'm having trouble replying to my own topic via mobile browser.

Re: Jondesu

Marsh had been augmented the most of all the inquisitors during Hero of Ages with hemalurgical spiked terrismen/women taken from Terris. When Vin passed her earring spike through Marsh's brain in Yomens room, Marsh strangled Vin and she commented that his wrist grew thick as a thigh with Ferruchemical aided strength. Later Elend calls Marsh another Lord Ruler by having over 20+ additional spikes than a normal inquisitor. Fullborn Marsh.

 

Yes. But that still doesn't mean he was a Fullborn, just that he had some more powers and possibly amplified others. I doubt he would've taken the time to somehow track down an electrum, aluminum and gold misting considering how useless they were considered at the time. Additionally, cadmium, bendalloy, chromium and nicrosil were unknown even to the inquisitors, so there's no way to have found the mistings, which means that gaining those powers at that time would've required four mistborn, which didnt exist.

[The One Who Connects]

On 2/15/2017 at 5:49 AM, tabitreader said:

Later Elend calls Marsh another Lord Ruler by having over 20+ additional spikes than a normal inquisitor. Fullborn Marsh.

Spool is correct about several metals not existing in anything other than TLR's memory, but mathematically he couldn't be Fullborn as there are too few spikes. He didn't have 20+ spikes more than an inquisitor, he had 20+ spikes. Per Inkthinker, he had 22 at the height of his power, but all that matters is that having "upwards of 20 spikes" is not 34 (16A & 16F + Atium compounding)

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Spool is correct about several metals not existing in anything other than TLR's memory, but mathematically he couldn't be Fullborn as there are too few spikes. He didn't have 20+ spikes more than an inquisitor, he had 20+ spikes. Per Inkthinker, he had 22 at the height of his power, but all that matters is that having "upwards of 20 spikes" is not 34 (16A & 16F + Atium compounding)

Not to mention there's at least one spike which serves hold his frayed spiritweb together which probably does not give the power.  The linchpin spike as it's called, with possibly others at that point.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[The One Who Connects]

20 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Not to mention there's at least one spike which serves hold his frayed spiritweb together which probably does that give the power.  The linchpin spike as it's called, with possibly others at that point.

I'm assuming you mean "does not" give a power? If so, then I respectfully disagree with you. I always figured that its placement is what made it a Linchpin, and that it would still  give them a power. No real evidence for or against this, just an assumption that never left me (or others, as it turns out).

[Spoolofwhool]

7 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm assuming you mean "does not" give a power? If so, then I respectfully disagree with you. I always figured that its placement is what made it a Linchpin, and that it would still  give them a power. No real evidence for or against this, just an assumption that never left me (or others, as it turns out).

Eh, fair enough. I've also assumed otherwise, since it has a more specific task, it seems that it would've somehow gathered a different hemalurgic charge such as connection instead of a power. I ran a quick list of the powers the basic inquisitors who have eleven spikes have and I got ten: pewter, tin, bronze, copper, iron, steel, brass, zinc and atium allomancy, and gold feruchemy. That's means that it's possible for them to have had a spike which didn't grant a power. Also, brass and zinc seem less important compared to the others so they probably could've been replaced with other powers as well amplifying the other powers gained such as bronze in order to pierce copperclouds.

Also, yes, I typoed. Fixed now.

Also, this is a personal request, but I would rather if you didn't attach any honorific adverbs such as respectfully to disagree when you use it towards my opinion. It's nothing much, but I would be grateful if you did.

[Yata]

@Spoolofwhool I remember quite well someone asked to Mister Sanderson if the " Linchpin Spike" need to be an F-Gold gifting Spike, and he replied he doesn't need to be a F-Gold  one (not the actual wording).
This point to a "the Linchpin needs to have a Spike to connect the Hemalurgy's modification but the Spike would be any kind of Spikes"

[Spoolofwhool]

38 minutes ago, Yata said:

@Spoolofwhool I remember quite well someone asked to Mister Sanderson if the " Linchpin Spike" need to be an F-Gold gifting Spike, and he replied he doesn't need to be a F-Gold  one (not the actual wording).
This point to a "the Linchpin needs to have a Spike to connect the Hemalurgy's modification but the Spike would be any kind of Spikes"

I see. The wording you're providing doesn't really point to that conclusion. I'd have to see the actual WoB if you can provide it.

[+tabitreader]

We knew before the Bands of Mourning book that the Southerners are using technological metallic arts. These Excisers seem to be one tool that allows the ferrochemists to charge unkeyed medallions. Over 300 years to fight the Ice Death created by Harmony shoving Scadrial further from the sun/star. The Sovereign arrived 10 years after the Ice Death/Catasandra (spelled badly likely)

So they froze overnight and began burning up quite alot of their wood (for all we know the Southerners cities might have been stone and metal construction 300 years ago) and we soon see the scene in Hoid's specially delivered Coppermind to Wax. Perhaps the Southerners cities were comparable to Elendel in the Alloy Era. I wish we had a new globe image of Scadrial as we do of Roshar. We see just the map of Elendel, but I presume strongly life isn't relegated to the planets poles any longer. When Wax and Harmony walked round the world he described more. Any words of Brandon about this? I can't make any sense of Theoryland.

I can't wait to read of current era look of the Malwish cities.

Discuss.

[ZenBossanova]

I was really under the impression Kelsier made them, but there was a WoB that suggested otherwise. 

Spoiler

QUESTION

In Elantris it talks about how to wood and stone in the city is rotten and crumbling. Why does this happen?

BRANDON SANDERSON

This is because when objects become Invested for long periods of time their spirit web changes to accommodate the investiture. When the investiture was pulled up of the stuff in Elantris its spirit web was severely damaged so it showed that in the physical realm. This happened with the Lord Ruler when the Bands of Mourning were ripped out of him.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

51 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I was really under the impression Kelsier made them, but there was a WoB that suggested otherwise. 

  Hide contents

QUESTION

In Elantris it talks about how to wood and stone in the city is rotten and crumbling. Why does this happen?

BRANDON SANDERSON

This is because when objects become Invested for long periods of time their spirit web changes to accommodate the investiture. When the investiture was pulled up of the stuff in Elantris its spirit web was severely damaged so it showed that in the physical realm. This happened with the Lord Ruler when the Bands of Mourning were ripped out of him.

 

The general theory is that the Bands of Mourning which TLR had were not the same ones discovered in BoM. TLR's were symbolic, in truth only atium metalminds holding his age, which stories expanded into bracers granting all the powers.