theory The Origin of the Dor

[VirtuousTraveller]

*After reflecting on this, I've changed the name of this theory from "Why the Dor Exists in the Cognitive Realm" to "The Origin of the Dor."  I think this better captures the Intent of my post!

In a conversation over on Yata's Theory about the splintering and death of Aona (Devotion) and Skai (Dominion), I've realized that I would like to propose a theory about the Dor and why it exists in the Cognitive Realm.

I believe that the Dor has always existed, intentionally (not the result of splintering).  Aona and Skai were lovers, whose relationship was a perfect example of "unity."  When they took up the power of the shards Devotion and Dominion, this relationship remained, and they went to Sel together.  While we see Preservation and Ruin working in direct opposition to one another on Scadrial, Devotion and Dominion were fused together in perfect unity, guided by the relationship of their Vessels.  Aona and Skai created all things together on Sel, placing Innate Investiture in all things in the form of the Dor (similar to Preservation).

Jesker is the most ancient religion we know about on Sel, and per Galladon it teaches that the Dor exists in everything.  To me, this predates any information we otherwise have about Shu-Korath or Shu-Dereth, which only appeared within the last few centuries or so on Sel (by the influence of Keshu, a possible worldhopper).

By why would the Dor, this divine force of power, exist in the Cognitive Realm?  Because, like so many things in life, it's all about RELATIONSHIPS!

When two people come together, entering a state of intimacy with one another, they remain two separate individuals, yet create a third, new thing called a relationship.  The relationship is a separate entity from both parties, and yet they are both actively participating in it.  This new "thing" is the cognitive creation of both people involved, the fusion of shared hopes, dreams, goals, plans, etc.  While you can't touch a relationship, it is absolutely a real thing, with power and influence that exists even after someone dies or the relationship ends.

This is what I propose occurred with Aona and Skai.  They fused the divine power of Devotion and Dominion (which exists in the Spiritual Realm separately) into one new power/shard we understand as the Dor/Unity.  This Unity shard never existed in the Spiritual or Physical Realms, yet just like a relationship, it was completely real.  It makes sense to me that something like this would have to exist in the Cognitive Realm, as it was made reality by Aona and Skai - the example of perfect, unified love.

Brandon, writing from the Christian influence of his own life, would be very familiar with the Biblical concepts of the origin of relationships when God spoke to Adam and Eve:

Quote

 

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." (Genesis 2:24)

 

"Your desire (DEVOTION) will be for your husband, and he shall rule (have DOMINION) over you." (Genesis 3:16)

Aona and Skai, bound together as one, created the "one flesh" that we know as the Dor.

This was all well and good until Rayse (Odium) stepped in and killed them.  *Pause for moment of sadness :*(

While the participants in the relationship died (Aona and Skai), the relationship itself (Unity) lived on, albiet very messily because now, that power resting in the Cognitive Realm, originally unified and guided by two divine Identities, has no divine Identity other than the original Intents of Devotion and Dominion to guide it.  Plus, whatever effect splintering a shard has on said Intents is also affecting it.

There it is! =) I know much of this is speculation, but until we learn more from an Elantris sequel/prequel, this is how I understand it!

Edited September 20, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[Jondesu]

Love it! I think I may have accidentally down voted instead of upvoted, btw, if someone can fix that.

We've seen a magic system that came from the interaction of opposing Shards before (Feruchemy, the balance of Ruin and Preservation), but it makes sense that with two very complementary Shards, we might get a single magic systems that works with the power from both Shards. It might not even have been intentional on Aona and Skai's parts, just a natural result of their relationship and the compatibility of the Shards they held.

jW

[VirtuousTraveller]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?  I really thought the Biblical allusions were a pretty cool catch, but since this theory isn't getting a lot of chatter, I'm wondering if I'm missing something blatantly obvious (Like a WoB that disproves it, or an obvious reference in the books?)

[Jondesu]

I think what we need to ask Brandon is whether the Dor has always been in the Cognitive Realm (since its inception), or if that was a result of something related to the splintering.

jW

[Yata]

I am still about the second one (the result of the Splintering)... After all we know that Roshar would be in some similar situation after Honor's Death if so much Investiture didn't became Splinters to "release the surplus of power in the Cognitive".

I may began to think that Splinter a Shard may be "pull the Shard down from the Spiritual and let the Realmatic pressure (without a better term) break it".... Like take a solid object and put it with force in a container not big enough.

[VirtuousTraveller]

I'm moving some thoughts I posted on another thread about splintering shards here, as I believe it helps understand not only the idea behind how/why shards would pull power together from the Spiritual Realm into the Cognitive Realm:

The Dor was a joint creation of Aona and Skai, a fusion of their powers together in complete unity as a product of their completely unified loving relationship.  This construct, I believe, was possible by dumping the spiritual power of both shards (formerly in the Spiritual Realm as two things) into the Cognitive Realm, as the idea of Unity was a creation of their minds (as all relationships are).  

The Dor is power of unity imagined, not necessarily the mutual spiritual intent of Devotion and Dominion.  Perhaps Aona and Skai did this because they knew their shardic intents could negatively impact their relationship if they allowed the intents to change their personalities over time if left unchecked?

Quote

Question

Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. [edited for clarity- Original was: Most of the bulk of what the Shard's energy of being is contained on the Spiritual Realm] Except for one notable exception!

Question

The mistwraith? 

Brandon Sanderson

No.

This, the original Dor under the joint control of Aona and Skai, is the exception I believe Brandon is referencing in the above quoted WoB.  I believe the Dor's primary residence in the Cognitive Realm is what allowed it (the shard Unity) to be splintered - it was already an unstable force bound only by an incredibly strong relationship of two divine Vessels.

The idea of a combined shard's power existing primarily in the Cognitive Realm is also seen in with Harmony.  It's considered "one" shard, but the spiritual power fueling it is not one: it is the competing spiritual intents of Preservation and Ruin.  That Sazed perceives the combined spiritual power as "Harmony" between to opposing forces is, to me, a cognition of his own creation (meaning no Sandersonian warlock [an Ahlstrom, if you will] appeared when Sazed picked up Preservation and Ruin and said, "THOU SHALT BE HARMONY!") - it likely required him to pull the power from the spiritual ideals of Preservation and Ruin from the Spiritual Realm into the Cognitive Realm.

My thoughts on splintering a shard, requiring a shard's spiritual power/investiture to be in the Cognitive Realm, are related to the idea of combining two or more shards:  combining shards magnifies the power of the new shard by mixing the powers together in the Cognitive Realm (since the new shard is the cognitive creation of the Vessel(s), but while it brings increased power, it also brings increased instability of said power, making it easier to be splintered apart.

Edited November 4, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller
Clicked save too fast

[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

The idea of a combined shard's power existing primarily in the Cognitive Realm is also seen in with Harmony.  It's considered "one" shard, but the spiritual power fueling it is not one: it is the competing spiritual intents of Preservation and Ruin.  That Sazed perceives the combined spiritual power as "Harmony" between to opposing forces is, to me, a cognition of his own creation (meaning no Sandersonian warlock [an Ahlstrom, if you will] appeared when Sazed picked up Preservation and Ruin and said, "THOU SHALT BE HARMONY!") - it likely required him to pull the power from the spiritual ideals of Preservation and Ruin from the Spiritual Realm into the Cognitive Realm.

Brandon implies though that the there is only one main exception to the fact of a shard's power is located within the spiritual realm, the Dor. Considering the specific WoB was discussing Harmony, right before he said that, it seems unlikely then that Harmony's power would be in the cognitive realm. Also, there is the fact that Hoid is known to have used allomancy in SA, and if indeed Harmony's combined power of shards is in the cognitive realm, that would be impossible due to the location restrictions of it. Therefore, it seems more likely that the power is still in the spiritual realm. 

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit.

ARGENT

So, Vin?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony...

QUESTION

Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. [edited for clarity- Original was: Most of the bulk of what the Shard's energy of being is contained on the Spiritual Realm] Except for one notable exception!

QUESTION

The mistwraith?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No.

Source

Quote

QUESTION

If Hoid was on Scadrial during the original Mistborn trilogy, and had a bead of lerasium, and took it and gained Allomantic powers, could he go to Roshar during Stormlight and still have those Allomantic powers?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes… Most of the magics are not re-- area centric, though a few are.

Source

Yes, he doesn't confirm that Hoid 

[VirtuousTraveller]

5 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Brandon implies though that the there is only one main exception to the fact of a shard's power is located within the spiritual realm, the Dor. Considering the specific WoB was discussing Harmony, right before he said that, it seems unlikely then that Harmony's power would be in the cognitive realm. Also, there is the fact that Hoid is known to have used allomancy in SA, and if indeed Harmony's combined power of shards is in the cognitive realm, that would be impossible due to the location restrictions of it. Therefore, it seems more likely that the power is still in the spiritual realm. 

While I think there is a parallel between Harmony and Unity (Devotion + Dominion), there is a key difference:  Harmony didn't fuse the powers of Preservation and Ruin.  He just holds them in balance.  Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy all continue to work because they are of Preservation and Ruin, two shards that continue to exist, just held by one Vessel.  Therefore, I agree with you that Harmony has not pulled or fused all the spiritual powers of his two shards into the Cognitive Realm.

The Dor (as I propose, we obviously don't know yet) was always the fused power of Devotion and Dominion, fueled from the Cognitive Realm on Sel.  Hoid's ability to use Allomancy off world is fueled from the Spiritual Realm by Preservation's shardic power, not bound by location.

[Savanorn]

I don't know if I like this. Definitely props to VT for the theory...but I think it is simpler. 

The way I see it...Aona and Skai aren't so important, it is more important that both their shards ( and matching Intents) are complementary and physical. 

Dominion and Devotion apply to places and things, and depend to a degree on the person, the culture and the society. This is very cognitive heavy as opposed to concepts like Ruin or Hatred. Further, just at a guess, without a Vessel or Cognitive Shadow to take up the shard, it makes sense for the power to gravitate to the Cognitive Realm.

It makes sense then that there is one single power that has many manifestations. As opposed to several variants on a theme or...proprietary arts. 

Edit: I should clarify, it is because Aona and Skai don't really get to decide what their power does. Dominion and Devotion interact, on Sel, and the Dor is what results. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by Savanorn

[VirtuousTraveller]

13 hours ago, Savanorn said:

Edit: I should clarify, it is because Aona and Skai don't really get to decide what their power does. Dominion and Devotion interact, on Sel, and the Dor is what results. 

That's a really curious thought.  I've always viewed the raw power of a shard (i.e. investiture) as just that - raw spiritual power.  The intents of the shards then dictate why (and maybe how) the Vessels use said power wherever they choose to go.  It seems strange that two shards chose to use metal as a focus of their investiture (Preservation and Ruin) while another chose to use the concept of color and breath as a focus/channel of their investiture (Endowment).  It almost seems arbitrary.  That the power is invested at all also seems to be in the control of the Vessel.  Perhaps the Vessels do get to control some things, but are obviously limited by the shardic intent that they possess.

My working theory is that Aona and Skai, to prevent the intents of their shards from interfering with their relationship (or perhaps in line with the intents of their shards toward one another), jointly created the Dor.  Perhaps they did this to become stronger in the face of opposition (Odium)?  Again, we can only speculate until we finally know the truth.

[Kingsdaughter613]

How a Shards power manifests has a lot to with world it is invested on. It isn't a choice exactly. Ruin and Preservation are weird because they created Scadrial; other Shards did not create their worlds and so have less control over the manifestation. 

I also believe I read a WoB ages ago that the the magic on Sel was different before The Shards were splintered. So there is that too.

Id also argue that relationships are about Connection, and that ties to a land and people are Connection (which seems clear from BoM.) We know from SH that connection is spiritual, not cognitive.

With regard to the Biblical references, keep in mind that those are translations and Old Hebrew is insanely complicated. (Seven 'houses' or tenses. Male and female terms and singular and plural forms of both of those. Oh, and a million exceptions to every rule...)

In Jewish mythos Adam and Eve started out as a single person (she was attached to his back. Yes, it's weird.) Also each person only has half a soul with the other half being with their spouse. This actually works rather well with your theory.

The second quote is a mistranslation though; the actual words used are very unusual. (One, I believe, appears twice in the whole Old Testament and both times in Genesis.) And it's also talking about intercourse; the woman will want it but be too shy to says so and the initiative will then come from the man who rules her in this manner. It's tied to the first part, about the lengthening of pregnancy. So the translation is actually closer to craving and cannot really be switched to devotion since it's referring to the physical sensation of desire, not an emotional one. (The commentator used is Rashi, who is referencing Tracate Eruvin. His translation is drawn from a word using the same root in Isaia. Other commentators may differ. I'm too tired to look it up right now.)

[VirtuousTraveller]

On 11/6/2016 at 1:12 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

With regard to the Biblical references, keep in mind that those are translations and Old Hebrew is insanely complicated. (Seven 'houses' or tenses. Male and female terms and singular and plural forms of both of those. Oh, and a million exceptions to every rule...)

Brandon though, raised with a Mormon-Christian background, would have been more familiar with the English translation that I referenced.  I'm implying that the concepts of Devotion and Dominion are expressed in the meaning of these verses, not necessarily the exact words.

[Kingsdaughter613]

My point was that the interpretation is inaccurate. Only half the sentence was quoted (the other half is about pregnancy, making the meaning of the first half clearer.) It was also out of context; it is Eve's punishment and not an especially nice thing. With that context the whole thing takes on a different cast. The male Dominion is a punishment, and leads to pregnancy implying the Dominion is in intercourse. I highly doubt Brandon was talking about sexual domination when he crafted Devotion and Dominion! Therefore, despite the initial impression it doesn't really apply. Unless you meant in the sense that one flesh refers to marital relations? Both quotes do reference that.

[VirtuousTraveller]

On 11/10/2016 at 5:06 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My point was that the interpretation is inaccurate. Only half the sentence was quoted (the other half is about pregnancy, making the meaning of the first half clearer.) It was also out of context; it is Eve's punishment and not an especially nice thing. With that context the whole thing takes on a different cast. The male Dominion is a punishment, and leads to pregnancy implying the Dominion is in intercourse. I highly doubt Brandon was talking about sexual domination when he crafted Devotion and Dominion! Therefore, despite the initial impression it doesn't really apply. Unless you meant in the sense that one flesh refers to marital relations? Both quotes do reference that.

I'd agree Brandon isn't talking about some type of sexual innuendo.  You're correct that the context of Genesis 3:16 is the punishment Eve was handed by God after her sin in the Garden of Eden, however I don't see pregnancy connected to the statement I quoted about desire (my interpretation Devotion) and Adam ruling over her (my interpretation Dominion).  Painful childbirth is one component of Eve's punishment.  A second is that the male will have leadership over her in the marital relationship.  Adam's curse was the burden of said leadership and the responsibility that goes with it, knowing that his work would be even harder (both the work of his hands and his responsibilities to his wife) now that he likewise sinned.

While there are plenty of viewpoints on God's intention for gender, this is one of the first/earliest passage in the Bible that references male-female relational/marital dynamics.  This, the relationship between a husband and wife, is what I was referencing (as Aona and Skai are believed to have been in a relationship).  There are a lot of Biblical allusions that reference the (borrowing another religion's term) "ying and yang" of a marriage (submission and sacrifice, leadership and support. etc).  If Aona and Skai were in a relationship and had to co-exist with these divine powers with underlying intents that could impact said relationship, the idea of Aona completely committing herself (Devotion) to the likewise passionate protection and leadership of Skai (Dominion) makes sense to me.  The resulting Unity that comes from two people in completeness (i.e. one flesh) fits the idea of the ancient Jesker teachings about the Dor existing in everything, as this Unity was the driving force of shardic interaction with the planet on Sel.

These two concepts of Devotion and Dominion existing in the Biblical beginnings of the marital relationship/dynamic just seem like an intentional allusion that a writer from a Christian background would employ.  Granted, this could all be 100% wrong, but until we get Elantris 2 and/or 3, we can only continue to speculate! 

Edited November 15, 2016 by VirtuousTraveller

[VirtuousTraveller]

So based on what we learn from the Selish Essay, I think the following points support the idea of my theory above:

Arcanum Unbounded Spoilers:

Spoiler

1. The localization of magic on Sel occured after the splintering of Dominion and Devotion, as a result of the uncontrolled Dor spreading out differently to different geographic areas within Shadesmar (the Cognitive Realm).  So this was not an original condition of the magic on Sel prior to Aona and Skai's arrival.

2.  That both shards were influential in the development of human societies on the planet (to the point of traditions, languages, and alphabets) could show a collaboration between the both Vessels in their labors.  After all, the ancient Jesker religion taught of a unified Dor, and Shu-Keseg taugh of unity as well, before a splitting into separate paths (Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth).  Keseg did not view his teachings of unity as revolutionary, but as something the Jindo already believed (source), and as Jesker was the common belief of the Duladel Republic, geographically near the Jindo, this idea of a unified power in the past could have been the prevailing ancient belief (and could be correct, as a unified Aona and Skai were "extremely influential" in the development of human societies).

3.  Dominion and Devotion have a polarized relationship, meaning they are attracted to one another, like a positive and negative magnet, or a "ying and yang," if you will, which could have made fusing the power together (or at least using the power in a unified manner) easier for two Vessels who were likewise romantically attracted to each other.

That said, as the essay states, much of the ancient past is "difficult to determine for now," as the splintering of the shards really disrupted everything on the planet.  I wasn't anticipating Brandon giving us anything about the Vessels in this essay, but I don't know that anything I read disproves the idea of my proposed origin of the Dor.

BUT, as this is theory-baby, I'm also biased :-P

[Jondesu]

@VirtuousTraveller, I haven't read Arcanum Unbounded yet (but decided I wouldn't be worried about spoilers), so if that's an accurate summary (and Khriss is right), that really changes my own ideas of Sel's magic.  I was already in agreement at least largely with this theory, but I really like it now.

[Blightsong]

9 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

So based on what we learn from the Selish Essay, I think the following points support the idea of my theory above:

Arcanum Unbounded Spoilers:

  Hide contents

1. The localization of magic on Sel occured after the splintering of Dominion and Devotion, as a result of the uncontrolled Dor spreading out differently to different geographic areas within Shadesmar (the Cognitive Realm).  So this was not an original condition of the magic on Sel prior to Aona and Skai's arrival.

2.  That both shards were influential in the development of human societies on the planet (to the point of traditions, languages, and alphabets) could show a collaboration between the both Vessels in their labors.  After all, the ancient Jesker religion taught of a unified Dor, and Shu-Keseg taugh of unity as well, before a splitting into separate paths (Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth).  Keseg did not view his teachings of unity as revolutionary, but as something the Jindo already believed (source), and as Jesker was the common belief of the Duladel Republic, geographically near the Jindo, this idea of a unified power in the past could have been the prevailing ancient belief (and could be correct, as a unified Aona and Skai were "extremely influential" in the development of human societies).

3.  Dominion and Devotion have a polarized relationship, meaning they are attracted to one another, like a positive and negative magnet, or a "ying and yang," if you will, which could have made fusing the power together (or at least using the power in a unified manner) easier for two Vessels who were likewise romantically attracted to each other.

I think you misinterpreted some information in your third point. Brandon has only spoken of Shards polarizing once before, and he was talking about Preservation and Ruin. He has said that the two Shards made Scadrial together because they were attracted to each other, but the powers obviously don't mix well. Khriss also then talks about how the powers have been trapped and forced together and are trying to escape eachother, which sounds nothing like what you propose.

[VirtuousTraveller]

17 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

I think you misinterpreted some information in your third point. Brandon has only spoken of Shards polarizing once before, and he was talking about Preservation and Ruin. He has said that the two Shards made Scadrial together because they were attracted to each other, but the powers obviously don't mix well. Khriss also then talks about how the powers have been trapped and forced together and are trying to escape eachother, which sounds nothing like what you propose.

The powers are now trapped together without Vessels to guide them - I think that the void of a mind to guide the power, this is why the Dor is so dangerous.  I propose that Dominion and Devotion are complimentary intents and that they were intentionally merged by the original Vessels into a single shard, which took their shared effort to control.  I'm drawing from a Biblical allusion that Dominion and Devotion are the ying and yang of human marital relationships, which I believe Aona and Skai had as Vessels.

When Odium splintered them, we learn that the Vessels were not only dead in the Physical Realm, but their minds were ripped from them, and their souls were sent into the Great Beyond.  As "Unity" is a very Cognitive concept (as relationships are), I believe Aona and Skai's power suddenly and traumatically lost control of their combined power when splintered, causing the Dor to do all kinds of strange things.

I don't read the Selish Essay as saying the powers are trying to escape one another, but rather they are trying to escape the Cognitive Realm.  Even if they are opposed to one another, that doesn't necessarily make void my proposition, as the Vessels who guided these powers are no longer alive or a part of the Dor.

[Yata]

I agree with @Blightsong nothing in the essay suggests there was a merge of power before the D&D's murder (it may be also debated that now the powers are merging, also if I think they are).

Instead I found quite a counterproof in the essay to the merging pre-death of D&D. Well maybe it's more a clue....If the Dor was there before the Splintering, you will not find Seon or Skaze (as Devotion and Dominion's Splinters) but you have to find....Dor's Splinter (I wanted to call it UnitySpren but It would be only a distraction).

You used as a base for your idea my theory. I theoryzated that Seon and Skaze are artificial created removing a Splinter for the Dor and leave it develops Sentience...The essay pose those Splinters as natural born in the event of the Splintering...therefore probably I failed with this part too.

[VirtuousTraveller]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

I agree with @Blightsong nothing in the essay suggests there was a merge of power before the D&D's murder (it may be also debated that now the powers are merging, also if I think they are).

Instead I found quite a counterproof in the essay to the merging pre-death of D&D. Well maybe it's more a clue....If the Dor was there before the Splintering, you will not find Seon or Skaze (as Devotion and Dominion's Splinters) but you have to find....Dor's Splinter (I wanted to call it UnitySpren but It would be only a distraction).

You used as a base for your idea my theory. I theoryzated that Seon and Skaze are artificial created removing a Splinter for the Dor and leave it develops Sentience...The essay pose those Splinters as natural born in the event of the Splintering...therefore probably I failed with this part too.

That's definitely a possibility.  I'm wondering though if the seons and skaze were created by Odium to pull the unified Dor apart into its separate shards, preventing them from ever recombining again.  The essay doesn't say that they were naturally born - they seem very artificial in origin and they seem designed to keep splinters of each shard separate to the point that they develop individual sentience.

[VirtuousTraveller]

This is a recent WoB from December 6th at his AU signing in Chicago.  I must admit, at first it forced me to acknowledge that Brandon may be telling a different story than the one I am, however after some reflection, I think he and I are still on the same page.  Here's that WoB:

Quote

So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn’t want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone.

It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience.

He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two Intents are opposed.

So here are some thoughts, though this theory of mine will be a hill I die on Brandon Sanderson, so don't you dare take it from me! 

1.  The Dor is an amalgamation of both Dominion and Devotion's power, which is consistent with the idea that Aona and Skai combined it together willingly and purposefully.

2.  Brandon says that the Dor has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm, which can be read that it was not two separate powers of Dominion and Devotion that Odium pressed and stuffed, but a singular power.  That he didn't want it to gain sentience, rather than them, is also a clue that Brandon is saying the singular Dor was the object of Odium's actions here.  I say all this to support the idea that the Dor existed before Odium's actions, not as a result of them.

Quote

Question

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the shard Harmony?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

Odium feared the intermingling (or fusing) of shards, as they would take great effort to split apart.  This fear is what drove Odium to attack Sel in the first place, that the Unity of two shards had mingled to the point of fusion, hence Brandon speaking about Odium's actions against the Dor, singular.

3.  It seems that in order for Odium to press and stuff the Dor into the Cognitive Realm, he had to remove/eliminate its Vessel(s), and by trapping the Dor in the Cognitive Realm, he thought he was preventing it from seeking a new Vessel or gaining sentience.

Tangent:  Personally, I don't think his plan worked, as per Khriss, the very planet of Sel seems to be invested now, which does give some credence to the Derethi teachings of Jaddeth literally rising from the earth.  Perhaps Jaddeth is the budding sentience of this invested planet?  Plus, the Seons and Skaze seem like sentient investiture to me.  Perhaps Odium created them to provide a "sentience release" for the Investiture of the Dor?  They seem pretty shard-specific though...I wonder if they were all Odium could split back out of the Dor?

4.  Brandon explains the violent reaction the Dor creates in the Cognitive Realm as the result of the opposing Intents of the shards within the Dor, but we know that a shard without a Vessel can be very dangerous anyways:

Quote

QUESTION

What would have happened if Kelsier hasn't taken Preservation or later Sazed hasn't taken Ruin and Preservation powers? Would the earth have been destroyed due to so much raw power much before the actual destruction due to Ruin's actions?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. Bad things would have happened

QUESTION

Like Sel?

BRANDON SANDERSON

"Not going to answer that. Just bad things would have happened"

The violent reaction, then, may not only be the result of the opposing Intents, but be due to a shard not being guided by the mind of a Vessel.  How interesting that the shardic power would have sought after a Vessel if it had not been trapped...

5.  Brandon's phrasing that the Dor, an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, was "pressed together" by Odium is somewhat confusing.  Does this mean Odium compressed the Dor?  That seems to line up with the word stuffing that he uses.  However, by mentioning both Dominion and Devotion immediately before this phrase, does Brandon mean Odium pressed Dominion and Devotion together?  I think this is a stretch based on the grammar of Brandon's statement (and because it destroys the narrative I've proposed), but then again WoB aren't exactly inspired gospel (GASP...forgive me Brandon!)

Conclusion of New Information

This theory suggests that Odium came to Sel in the first place because two shards (Dominion and Devotion) had been merged into one shard (Unity), expressed via the magic of the Dor.  Odium, desiring to be the most powerful being in the cosmere, found a way to kill Aona and Skai (the Vessels), splintering "that which they held" (from The Letter), and then trapped the Dor in the Cognitive Realm to prevent anyone from being able to pick it, the shard of Unity, up again.

[HavoKinetic]

I think we make a bit too much of Preservation and Ruin as a pair. Obviously their proximity and our familiarity with MB colors that, but I believe Brandon has said that a trio of Cultivation, Preservation, and Ruin is more natural.  I could be making that up, but we do see Sazed questioning his nonintervention because it's not allowing the Scadrians to struggle and Cultivate new tech as quickly as they should.

I prefer the yin and yang analogy for DnD to the biblical one. Our author is naturally impacted by his own beliefs, but he is also one of the most belief-conscious authors I've ever read. We've seen religions spring up around several characters whose flaws we are familiar with in MB. Also Brandon is openly and purposely setting Sel up with many Earth-Eastern influences.

I'm hardly a theologian, but I believe several religions regard marriage as a spiritual joining also. I'm of the opinion that Odium was concerned with DnD's possible conjoining on at least the CR and SR levels, if not also the PR level. Pressing the majority of their power in to the CR might not be working out so well as far as that goes... The Investitures still have Physical outlets, don't seem weaker apart from not having Vessels, and it's not like there aren't sentient being prowling about the CR looking to get some power/physical form...

[Yata]

Actually Odium started to seek another Shard to kill but He can't find him/her and He went to Sel to kill D&D, just after He manage to find his first target and kill him/her

[VirtuousTraveller]

1 hour ago, HavoKinetic said:

I prefer the yin and yang analogy for DnD to the biblical one. Our author is naturally impacted by his own beliefs, but he is also one of the most belief-conscious authors I've ever read. We've seen religions spring up around several characters whose flaws we are familiar with in MB. Also Brandon is openly and purposely setting Sel up with many Earth-Eastern influences.

To each their own! :-P I think the metaphor to two-in-one works with the yin and yang too.  Brandon also piles layers upon layers of significance into things, so I wouldn't be surprised if both are in the back of his mind here.

1 hour ago, Yata said:

Actually Odium started to seek another Shard to kill but He can't find him/her and He went to Sel to kill D&D, just after He manage to find his first target and kill him/her

Yeah I saw this WoB (@Argent you're a master at these WoBs):

Quote

Argent: So there were a few of the Shards that Rayse Splintered, included Ambition, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon: Yes.

Argent: And those were all way back in history. So, we know that the Shard’s personality overrides the Vessel’s personality over time?

 

Brandon: Strongly influence, and depending on the Vessel, override.

 

Argent: So, did Rayse choose those Shards because--

 

Brandon: He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

 

Argent: Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person.

Brandon: In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But, he then got trapped in the Rosharan system

So Ambition was Odium Enemy Number One, but since he couldn't find it, he took care of Sel first.  Why Sel?  It could have been his fear of the Intent of Dominion (Devotion's Intent doesn't really strike fear into me at first glance), but in reference to Ambition, Brandon says that Intent applied "in this case," meaning it wasn't always the case that Odium acted on this motive.  Sel stands out because two Vessels, who were also lovers, went there with their divine shardic powers.  Even if we don't accept that they fused their shards together into Unity, the idea of two shards working together would have been a threat to Odium, rivaling his place as most powerful in the cosmere.

Odium also went to Roshar, where two other Vessels were known to have been romantically involved, possibly to eliminate the joint threat as he did on Sel.

[Argent]

18 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

Sel stands out because two Vessels, who were also lovers,

I don't think we know that.