46 replies to this topic

[lauren.e135]

(Now, here's a tangent for you: the spikes are obvious symbols of Hemalurgy/Ruin. Then, the crescents in the metal symbols would represent Allomancy/Preservation. Spike the crescents, and you have Feruchemy/Balance, and also Harmony, and life. Use just a spike, and you have only Ruin; you have nothing. Now, I know the symbols were originally designed just to look cool, so I'm probably reading too much into it...but you've gotta admit it's cool.)

You may be reading too much into it, but I love your theory. It makes a lot of sense and it's extremely cool. And the spike in the prologues being zero because it's just Ruin makes a lot of sense as well. The spike is useless if you have no one to stab it through/put it into.

Now, about replacing the symbols we don't know from the broadsheet with "v" and "i" seems logical, but isn't pewter "i"?

Edited by lauren.e135, 12 November 2011 - 08:07 PM.

[lauren.e135]

Now, I must ask: How did you get 122? Because the numbers I see are "? 15 ? 6 16 10." The problem is with a true base 16 system, the only digits that can be used are 0 to 15. So the 16 there messes that up. Unless it's more like the roman numerals in terms of being positional; however, without other examples we can't determine what the positions and values represent.

[Ryan]

Now, I must ask: How did you get 122? Because the numbers I see are "? 15 ? 6 16 10." The problem is with a true base 16 system, the only digits that can be used are 0 to 15. So the 16 there messes that up. Unless it's more like the roman numerals in terms of being positional; however, without other examples we can't determine what the positions and values represent.

6*16^1 + (16+10) * 16^0. If I'm right about the two numerals per position thing, that's how it would work.

I initially thought it was a non-positional system like Roman numerals, but I can't come up with one that fits. At least, not based on information we already have. And for such a system to work, you'd need to have multiplicity modifiers in order to handle larger numbers. Come to think, that could be what the unknown symbols in the broadsheet are. But I find that dissatisfying, because it means we don't have enough information to figure out what they are.

[Eri]

Sorry, but it can't be base 16 system, if it has 16 digits plus zero (which we've seen used on the map).

Base 17, maybe? As in 17'th Shard? ;-)

Or something more primitive (however weird it would be with all the modern science they have) - look at the chapter's numbers. 17 is written as "16 1", 18 as "16 2" etc. As you've said - it's more like Roman numbers than modern, base-n numbers.

[Guinevere]

I'm still a little confused about the 122... maybe that's because math makes zero sense to me. Sorry. I also don't understand why it can't be base-16, especially after being confirmed by Brandon.

I just noticed that the two symbols we are missing in the edition number are part of the Steel Alphabet in Mistborn. They seem to be the 20th and 19th metal respectively. Unfortunately they are unnamed, and I'm not sure if anything else is known about them. Does anyone know anything more about those metals?

Also, I have a theory about the symbols for the prologue and epilogue.

The symbol for the prologue is a single spike. Following the logic about spikes representing Ruin, this symbol could potentially encompass the Ruin shard on Scadrial (ie their way of saying Ruin in their language). That said, the symbol for the epilogue looks shockingly similar to the symbol for lerasium in the MB books. Lerasium is pretty much synonymous with Preservation. Perhaps those symbols aren't actually letters or numbers, but words denoting Ruin and Preservation. Thoughts?

Edited by Guinevere, 13 November 2011 - 08:18 AM.

[Eri]

I also don't understand why it can't be base-16, especially after being confirmed by Brandon.

Because, with all due respect to our favorite author, base-16 has 16 digits, including 0. And the digits used in book are 1, 2,... 16 and 0 (in the map). Yes, I'm a bit of maths geek.

I guess he meant the number system used is based on number 16 (which it is), but not in a strict mathemathical sese of base-16 number system. Kinda like Roman numbers are based on 2 and 5. Or maybe we shouldn't assume that the numbers used in the book are the exact in-world number system. (=I guess mister Sanderson or his editor may have done a little mistake here—they're writers, not mathematicians. Therefore overanalyzing the exact way numbers are written in the book may not be a very good idea. Let us enjoy the fact it's based on number 16 and overanalyze the Ars Arcanum instead )

And for edition - I think it's either a word written in steel alphabet, or (more likely) a date or something similar. Not one number - if it was on base-16 number, with that uch digits, it would be to big to resonably fit as a number of edition od a newspaper. Also, it has two symbols that aren't in the 0, 1, 2,..16 set. Some kind of separators, maybe? Like "/" in "edition 12/11/2011"? (sorry for European format)


I think the other 2 symbols (19 and 20) are not metals, just additional letters. They may be, however, some atium or lerasium alloys.

Edited by eri, 13 November 2011 - 11:50 AM.

[Ryan]

I'm still a little confused about the 122... maybe that's because math makes zero sense to me. Sorry. I also don't understand why it can't be base-16, especially after being confirmed by Brandon.

I thought this might come up eventually. Here's a primer on how numbers work.

Our number system is big-endian, positional, and base-10. Big-endian means that, when reading a number from left to right, you encounter the big end first. Positional means that the value of a numeral depends on its position within the number. Base-10 means that the mathematics that determine what a numeral in a given position means are based on the number 10.

In positional systems, in order to determine the value of a number, we multiply each numeral by b^p, where b is the base and p is an exponent whose value is dependent on the position. In the first position, the exponent is 0; in the second, it is 1; and so on and so forth forever.

Let's look at an example number: 385. The value of this number is determined by the following expression: 3*10² + 8*10¹ + *10⁰ = 385. In other words, 300 + 80 + 5.

This way of thinking about numbers looks daft until you realize that it allows for numbers in bases other than the familiar 10, which can occasionally be very useful. The only example I know of is computers, which only have two numerals to represent information, and so have to use base-2.

In base-2 (or binary), our example number is 110000001: 1*2⁸ + 1*2⁷ + 1*2⁰ = 256 + 128 + 1. Of course, binary numbers are hard for humans to work with, so to make our jobs easier, programmers started using base-16, or hexadecimal. Our example in hexadecimal is 181: 1*16² + 8*16¹ + 1*16⁰.

The chapter numbers cannot be a positional system, at least not in the way we use them. Consider chapter 17, which is numbered (16 1). If this were a base-16 system, that number would be 16*16¹ + 1*16⁰, or, IOW, very much NOT 17. Instead, the two numerals are added together, much like Roman numerals.

The only way to get those chapter numbers to work in a positional system is to posit that every TWO numerals occupy a single position. In such a system, you add pairs of numerals together before applying the base. So, in the three-digit number (6 16 10), you first add 16 and 10 together to get 26, then apply the base: 6*16¹ + 26*16⁰ = 96 + 26 = 122.

Such a system is not without problems, as eri has pointed out:

Sorry, but it can't be base 16 system, if it has 16 digits plus zero (which we've seen used on the map).

It is true that all of our positional number systems use the same number of symbols as the base. Thus base-10 uses 0-9, base-16 uses 0-F, etc. In this system, there are 17 symbols: Spike-Duralumin. I realized this when I proposed it, but I ignored it because it's not an issue. All it means is that there is more than one way to represent certain numbers, but this system would have that property anyway due to the two-numbers-per-position thing.

So, yes, it's an inefficient and stupid way to write numbers. But, then again, so are Roman numerals, and the greatest empire of the ancient world used them to create feats of engineering never before seen. And speaking of Roman numerals, that's another system that has many ways to represent some numbers.

If we abandon the notion of shoehorning these numbers into a positional system, we'd end up with a system where all numerals are added together, except for those that are preceded by a letter, in which case that number is multiplied by some value before being added. In the edition number, under this system, the two unknown letters would be value-modifying prefixes on the numbers 15 and 6.

I'm pretty much convinced the numbers work in one of these two ways. Now, we just need more information, which means that someone needs to bug Brandon (or we could RAFO, but that's no fun ).

[PeterAhlstrom]

Found this on Brandons old livejournal Edit:On his blog too.

Note that the letter values there were not canon and have changed since then.

Also, this article may help you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals

[discipleofhoid]

Note that the letter values there were not canon and have changed since then.

Also, this article may help you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals

Ok so the numbers are base 16 but they are written the way the Japanese write their numbers. That is 0-16 have their own representation. 17-31 are written as 16-1,16-2,16-3 ... 16-15. 32 would be written as 2-16. 33 as 2-16-1. This pattern would continue till 255 which would be 15-16-15. 256 would have its own symbol. 257 would be written 256-1, 273 would be 256-16-1. And the pattern continues.

This is a slightly better tutorial on that number scheme http://www.learnjapa...se-numbers.html

[PeterAhlstrom]

The 1,0000 and 1,0000,0000 rule applies as well.

[Eri]

Wow, thanks, that's cool! In a complicated way, but cool. Sorry for suggesting that you did a mistake here, 17 digits seemed just wrong, I didn't know the Japanese system. Still, I was right in saying it's not base-16 as most of us know it and use it.

So the unknown symbols in "edition" may also be some bigger numbers, like 256... But why would they need such a big number as edition number? Megalomany of the newspaper's owner, maybe. ;-)

Edited by eri, 14 November 2011 - 12:56 PM.

[CrazyRioter]

Wow, thanks, that's cool! In a complicated way, but cool. Sorry for suggesting that you did a mistake here, 17 digits seemed just wrong, I didn't know the Japanese system. Still, I was right in saying it's not base-16 as most of us know it and use it.

So the unknown symbols in "edition" may also be some bigger numbers, like 256... But why would they need such a big number as edition number? Megalomany of the newspaper's owner, maybe. ;-)

or the paper has been running for a very long time.

[PeterAhlstrom]

The number is sequential since the founding of the broadsheet.

[Guinevere]

And I now can no longer understand my own thread...

Oh, well. I'm glad it has cleared some things up for math-type people. If anyone figures out the edition number, please let us know. I think there are still plenty of symbols we don't know yet, ones that represent all the other available alloys, that will fill in the blanks of the Steel Alphabet. Though we kind of have to wait for the Scadrians to discover them all.

Does anyone have any thoughts about the prologue and epilogue symbols representing Ruin and Preservation respectively?

[discipleofhoid]

Correct my math if I am wrong guys but:

The edition number is:
x 15 y 6 16 10

So with the number system as I understand it we should have
y = 256

x =4096

This would make the edition number

4096 + 15 * 256 + 6 * 16 + 10 = 8042

[lauren.e135]

Correct my math if I am wrong guys but:

The edition number is:
x 15 y 6 16 10

So with the number system as I understand it we should have
y = 256

x =4096

This would make the edition number

4096 + 15 * 256 + 6 * 16 + 10 = 8042

Makes perfect sense to me, and is very logical. I think it would be fair to say that we can safely assume y=256 and x=4096 as you've said. Also, if the mistborn world had approximately 365 days in a year as we do, this would mean that the Elendel Daily has been running daily for a little over 22 years. Seems realistic.

Might I be as bold to say we've cracked the number code?? ; )

[Eri]

8042... assuming one edition per day and 365 days in a year... the newspaper exists for about 22 years. Makes a lot of sense.

Not as big number as I thought. (But nubmering every day's edition sequentialy is kinda megalomaniac. Of course, a bit of megalomany is a good thing in steampunk settings... )

edit: Ninjas.

Edited by eri, 15 November 2011 - 12:48 AM.

[Joe ST]

The number is sequential since the founding of the broadsheet.

are they still speaking/using the same language/etc as in the Final Empire times?

[Guinevere]

are they still speaking/using the same language/etc as in the Final Empire times?

You know, apart from high imperial.

[Windrunner]

I've got one question that is semi on topic about the steel alphabet. Are their any patterns in the symbols that show the attributes of the metal? Like any patterns that you've noticed so you could look at the symbol for pewter and go, "oh, that's the Physical, internal, pushing metal because of these attributes in the symbol, like location or number of the spikes or location and number of the rings? The only one that I've been able to find is that if the dot is on the inside it is pushing, and if it is on the outside it is pulling. Maybe I'm insane and the symbols are just there to look cool but the fact that dots are in a pattern makes me wonder if there are other more subtle patterns that anyone can catch