Each Order gains plate slightly differently, but with similar principles

[Ixthos]

I don't think this theory has been proposed before, but I have seen others which include parts of it, so I apologise if this is something that has been mentioned. I think each order of Knight Radiant gains their plate in a different way, but a way that is similar across the orders - mainly, I think they use a combination of surges and spren.

 

In short, the theory is that the non-sapient, lesser spren form a scaffolding for the plate, and then one or both surges are used together by the knight to form the plate across the spren scaffolding, which then leave once the plate is formed, whether or not they are needed again to reform the plate is something I don't know, and maybe the lesser spren don't leave, instead becoming part of the plate, but uncaring in much the same way bacteria in the body, like gut bacteria, don't care, as they are symbiotically part of something which provides for them, even as it confines them in a way.

 

The main origin of this theory is how Shallan's radiant persona had plate, lightwoven but also somehow partially real. It also is about how the different orders also seem to attract lesser spren when exemplifying their order or using surges strongly, such as windspren for Kaladin, gloryspren for Dalinar, lifespren for Lift. I think, therefore, that the combination of surges with spren becomes plate, and could explain how each order gains plate at a different time, and can be both unique - there isn't a single answer to where the plate comes from - while also being the same. I propose that each order gains their plate in the following manner:

 

• Bondsmiths and Windrunners use adhesion on the stormlight surrounding their lesser spren scaffold, Bondsmiths possibly also using tension to make the stormlight solid
• Skybreakers and Dustbringers use division to break down stormlight into solid plate - the least strong part of this theory, but see the note at the end
• Edgedancers and Truthwatchers use progression, making the plate slightly alive, something growing out of the spren surrounding, and lightweaving possibly turning an illusion plate into solid plate
• Lightweavers and Elsecallers use transformation, making the air around them part of the plate, or transforming stormlight, with lightweavers also solidifying the stormlight illusion into solid matter
• Willshapers and Stonewards affect the strength of the stormlight, making it solidify around them, making the plate from stormlight

 

One additional thought - it might be that no single radiant can form their plate initially, and so the two main support radiants would need to help, and so plate requires the surges of tension and adhesion or the surges of progression and illumination to complete plate in addition to the surges of the radiant.

[Bigmikey357]

The problem with that theory in my mind is that all the dead plate acts the same regardless of the order that made it in the first place. If this theory was correct then we should see even dead plate with it's limited functionality be able to do different things. Instead all dead plate works in a standardized fashion. I can accept different spren using the same process to create plate, much like HP and IBM can get their microchips from different manufacturers but still make a PC. 

[Ixthos]

Fair point, but those distinctions could be fairly subtle, and might only be possible if the plate is being actively provided with stormlight from a radiant, rather than gemstones. I don't have it infront of me, but I remember somewhere with Dalinar when he was in plate that it seemed to reorient itself, or something about being able to keep a firm grip - I remember someone also posted about that on the forum, but I don't know where. Those could be the different functions being performed, so it might be that dead plate is unique, but not commonly noticed by those who use them.

[Bigmikey357]

I tend to look at it like a computer. Whether you have a dell or an hp, if it's a windows computer running in protected mode the functionality will be the same. If we go by your theory, what it looks like to me is 5 to 10 computers running side by side in protect mode but one is a PC, another running MacOS, another running Linux, ect. Even in protect mode, even with limited functionality, these systems will look different while still performing basic computing functions. No matter how subtle the difference I feel like it would be noticed and would be commented on.  And parts would not be even a little interchangable unless the same Order made the plate. For example, when Dalinar borrowed Adolin's gauntlet on their way back from the tower in WOK, how would they even know such a thing was possible? Anyway, I guess we will see eventually.

[Ixthos]

I see your point, and it is fair, but I disagree for one main reason - shardblades. Each spren is clearly different form the others, each has access to different surges, such as Syl being able to use adhesion herself, and Pattern not being able to become invisible, and yet when they become shardblades they have the same capabilities, only changed into solid material with a unique physical appearance - the only difference between them when shardblades is how they look, while when not shardblades they are capable to performing different functions.

While I agree that two different OSes running on two different machines are clearly different, even at their most basic, a lot of what is either differences in how they perform the same tasks, or visual differences in the shell. More complex functions, like running specific programs are indeed different, but at the core they both possess datapaths and control paths, registers and program counters - the peripherals might be different, and have different functions or require unique programs to run on them to control them, they are still the same fundamentally at their lowest level. And all spren on Roshar are made from a combination of two shards, excluding Odium. It could be argued that they are all infact running the equivalent of the same operating system on the equivalent of similar hardware, only with a few cosmetic differences.

Still, you do have a good point, though I disagree with it :-) I just think that the plates would still be the same material - condensed stormlight and possibly symbiotic spren - shaped by the surges, in the same way that you can make metal sculptures or tools using different techniques, though some techniques - like alloying or folding the metal - will add additional properties to the material which might only be noticed if one has experimented with the material in ways that might not be obvious to those who use them.

[MountainKing]

I could see this happening, that each order has a different method of shardplate creation.

For your division problem, I think that the surge of Division can unite things as well as its regular use. Adhesion can be used to force things apart, illumination can cause darkness or silence, Cohesion can make thinks malleable or the opposite of malleable, so I am pretty sure all the surges can be used to do what they usually do and their opposite.

[Ixthos]

@MountainKing Could work :-) though I also am starting to think that there might be a little more to it, and combining this idea with the idea of Dustbringers being able to produce lightning and or flame, in that maybe Dustbringers cause the stormlight to become fire or lightning that then congeals into plate, so each manifests the stormlight as the element linked to the order, so wind for Windrunners, smoke for Skybreakers, etc. So the division wouldn't be inverted so much as used to make the stormlight take on the appearance and properties of fire, and thus "burn" into plate.

[Bigmikey357]

Shardblades are different because they are actual sapient souls. No matter what theory one subscribes to regarding Shardplate, I'm sure we can all agree that the elements involved are not self aware. Shardblades also do not cause surges, they are an indication of progression in an Order. 

Let's go back to my computer example. Can you fix a PC using parts from a machine built to run MacOS? The answer is yes but only with modifications. It would not be an easy fix and it certainly wouldn't be plug-and-play. By that logic Dalinar would not have been able to attach Adolin's gauntlet to his suit and have it work seamlessly unless the plate was of the same Order, which is highly unlikely. The only way that little trick works without twisting plausibility into a gordian knot is to say Shardplate is made with the same process independent of Order. 

Ixthos, I don't agree with your premise but if you turn out to be correct I won't be disappointed. It looks like it would be a cool mechanic and likely an awesome scene. 

[Ixthos]

@Bigmikey357 I do see your point, though I disagree with it. For shardblades, my point is that the spren that transform into them have different abilities, and at least some of the spren can use the surges, but when they become physical they all behave the same, even dead blades are the same only unable to change form. Disregarding intelligence, I am not saying that the plate should have access to the surges, only that the surges can be used to turn stormlight into plate, much as one can forge metal or caste it, or carve your name into a piece of wood or burn it - the plate is the same, maybe with some background abilities, but formed using the surges. Still stormlight, but the method it solidified differing.

For the computer example, I agree that you can't just swap out pieces of hardware between different venders, or even expect the same code to run. I don't think it fully matches up with the plate example, though, as I think, due to surgebinding sharing a common origin, it isn't so much swapping out parts between a Mac and a PC, but rather between two different versions of a PC - my old computer was made from parts my dad got from work, depriciated, outdated components used in other machines that themselves were running other versions of Windows. I wouldn't be able to do this with a Mac and a PC, but between two different versions of a PC that both are able to run Windows that becomes a common practice. If other systems, like AonDor, had the equivalent of plate, that would be like a Mac and a PC, but between two different surgebiner order's sets of plate, both powered by spren sharing a common set of shards, I don't think the issue applies. And again, I also think the plate is still essentially the same as stormlight, so it would be closer to getting an organ donated by a twin, or swapping out the wheels on a vehicle. The same material made into the same shape with different processes but still the same, like a piece of chipboard cut with a saw blade or a laser cutter or simply snapping it in half.

I like your arguments Bigmikey, and you have made me rethink parts of this theory. I still think it is right, but I do know it could be mistaken. Either way, the fact we both think the idea, whether or not it works, could be a cool event in the series is a promising sign! :-D

[Feruchemical Skybreaker]

I like that theory. 

On 9/25/2018 at 0:55 PM, Ixthos said:

One additional thought - it might be that no single radiant can form their plate initially, and so the two main support radiants would need to help, and so plate requires the surges of tension and adhesion or the surges of progression and illumination to complete plate in addition to the surges of the radiant.

I definitely feel that it would make sense for all the radiants to go to a bondsmith for their plate. Not necessarily  a truthwatcher though.

[Gderu]

4 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Perhaps it would be best to discuss that on that thread, rather than on this one - let us not derail the topic. If I recall correctly, the plate Shallan was wearing seemed to be somewhat solid, and each order having access to their own method of making plate could help keep the orders diverse. Nevertheless it is only a theory, and while it is true that the simple answer usually is correct that is dependent on the evidence available. If you are in your car and the windscreen is wet, it probably is because its raining. Unless you see fish swim past, then you probably are underwater. This isn't a theory about how the world works, but about what would make an interesting story, and I think the surges, lesser spren, and possibly the support orders all working together would make the idea of each order gaining shardplate in a different way more interesting, and can also allow Brandon to remain closed lipped more easily because he can't talk say how plate is produced because it is unique to each order.

I don't think anything about the plate Radiant wore was mentioned, other than the fact that it glowed garnet. 

We've seen three characters manifest plate, or something like it - Shallan, Jasnah, and Dalinar. All of them didn't ask any other radiants for help with Plate. That seems to signify that Plate doesn't require multiple radiants. We also see the windrunner in Dalinar's vision summoning it, and he didn't need any help. I think that pretty much eliminates the possibility that plate requires multiple radiants working together.

As for it requiring surges, I think that your possible explanations are not very convincing. We have never seen surges being used on spren while they are in the physical realm, and we have also never seen them used on stormlight. That is because they are both heavily invested things, which will make the surges be weaker when used on them. You can't transform air into plate - that would mean you are creating investiture since plate is invested, but investiture is conserved so that's impossible. You can't make stormlight be alive - we have never seen regrowth used on non living things.

As for it making the story better, I disagree. What this would do, if it were possible like you said, is add complexity to an already complex part of the story. There are no benefits - all it does is change the way plate is obtained by a bit. Why not just have stormlight condense around the radiant?  Making Plate require surges doesn't make the moment more epic, it doesn't make the moment more consistent with the in world magic. If the addition is not beneficial at all then there's no point in adding it.

[Bigmikey357]

Well how about this as a addendum or counterpoint to the theory. 

What if the process of creating plate is the same but the materials in the crafting are different?  For example,  for us that subscribe to the plate as lesser spren theory, say I'm a Windrunner of sufficiently high Oath as to form Shardplate.  My plate is made of Windspren, or at least the framework is made of Windspren.  My buddy is a Lightweaver and his plate is made of Creationspren.  There's only one way to create that framework, but the spren that make up that framework precipitate small changes like different color or glyphs.  The differences of the plate between Orders is minimal because there's only one way to make plate and have it be plate.  Because the spren that make up the framework aren't sapient they don't have the cognition to confer extra abilities like live Nahel spren do. When they hit the Physical Realm they are directed by their parent type spren and that spren builds off of one universal blueprint. 

[Honorless]

@Ixthos, just came to say I love this theory! 

[Karger]

If this theory is true then why not use surge fabrials to make plate after gathering appropriate spren?

[Ixthos]

@Gderu The thing to note is that none of them have manifested the completed plate, which implies, if Jasnah doesn't yet have it, that they are still missing something, and once plate is completed - once the plate has been made - it wouldn't need to be recreated each time, only summoned.

The spren likewise are manifestations of the surges - Investiture only interferes with opposing investiture, which is why Windrunner plate can fly and other orders can't - there is no reason to think a spren which embodies the concept of gravity would resist the surge of gravitation, etc.

As for the part about if it makes the story better or not, we will have to agree to disagree. I will say though that the knights are all about the surges and about stormlight, so having the surges being integral to the forming of the armour isn't as big a stretch as you are implying, but this is something which we will have to disagree on.

 

@Bigmikey357 That could work, though as the spren are partially manifestations of the surges, I think this also could work with the surges being what completes the process of forming plate.

 

@Feruchemical Skybreaker Thanks :-) I do agree the Truthwatchers are a bit of a stretch, but it could work if the plate is considered something alive, and so would require progression to help make it more so. Still, that is a good point :-)

 

@Honorless Thanks! :-)

 

@Karger maybe one can, and the older knights never thought to do it, or did but what they made is hidden ;-) or perhaps the plate has to form around someone, their spirit web forming the blueprint the lesser spren flow around to become the scaffolding.

[Karger]

35 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

 maybe one can, and the older knights never thought to do it, or did but what they made is hidden ;-) or perhaps the plate has to form around someone, their spirit web forming the blueprint the lesser spren flow around to become the scaffolding.

If the first is true then Odium knows and if Odium knows the fused will have shardplate.  They got a soulcasting fabrail during the destruction of Kholinar.

[Ixthos]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

If the first is true then Odium knows and if Odium knows the fused will have shardplate.  They got a soulcasting fabrail during the destruction of Kholinar.

Then it most likely - again, assuming the theory is correct - is the latter, with the knight being a vital component in the plates formation, the reference point the spren, stormlight, and surges use.

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Then it most likely - again, assuming the theory is correct - is the latter, with the knight being a vital component in the plates formation, the reference point the spren, stormlight, and surges use.

Why would knights not make more then one set of plate and have their squires where it as well?  Or why not capture a radiant and use it to mass produce shardplate.

[Nellac]

So, I skimmed over everything so this might have already been brought up, but remember Dalinar's visions. In one of them he is talking to the other radiant and telling him that his plate isn't working properly. The radiant tells him to go talk to someone, I can't remember the name, when they get back to Urithiru. This makes it seem obvious that there is someone else who has power over radiant plates. Building off of what has been said here's my theory. The radiant creates a "framework" for lack of a better term. This framework is a combination of their surges and their lesser spren. I think this is the only thing we have seen on modern radiants. Once the person has sufficient control over their framework they go to one of the bondsmiths. I think their name is more literal then we often take it. I don't think they just create bonds between people, I think they have some power to bind spren. The Bondsmith can then bind the spren and stormlight to the radiant creating true shardplate. Now, looking at the shard plate normal people have, here's my thoughts. If we look at this as if we are literally forging armor there are some interesting things we can come across. All spren are aspects of honor and cultivations power. They could be said to be made of the same material, just in different shapes. When a Bondsmith forges shardplate perhaps they break the spren back down into this power and then make them into armor. This way all plate is actually the same material. The different spren could be compared to different shaped ingots. Whether you use square, rectangular, or circular ingots, as long as the metal is the same you will end up with the same armor. This compatibility is what let Dalinar use Adolin's gauntlet and why no one sees a difference between sets of modern plate. Of course this is simplifying it quite a bit and there's probably more to it, but I think it fits.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Nellac said:

So, I skimmed over everything so this might have already been brought up, but remember Dalinar's visions. In one of them he is talking to the other radiant and telling him that his plate isn't working properly. The radiant tells him to go talk to someone, I can't remember the name, when they get back to Urithiru. This makes it seem obvious that there is someone else who has power over radiant plates. Building off of what has been said here's my theory. The radiant creates a "framework" for lack of a better term. This framework is a combination of their surges and their lesser spren. I think this is the only thing we have seen on modern radiants. Once the person has sufficient control over their framework they go to one of the bondsmiths. I think their name is more literal then we often take it. I don't think they just create bonds between people, I think they have some power to bind spren. The Bondsmith can then bind the spren and stormlight to the radiant creating true shardplate. Now, looking at the shard plate normal people have, here's my thoughts. If we look at this as if we are literally forging armor there are some interesting things we can come across. All spren are aspects of honor and cultivations power. They could be said to be made of the same material, just in different shapes. When a Bondsmith forges shardplate perhaps they break the spren back down into this power and then make them into armor. This way all plate is actually the same material. The different spren could be compared to different shaped ingots. Whether you use square, rectangular, or circular ingots, as long as the metal is the same you will end up with the same armor. This compatibility is what let Dalinar use Adolin's gauntlet and why no one sees a difference between sets of modern plate. Of course this is simplifying it quite a bit and there's probably more to it, but I think it fits.

So only quoting you because of the subject of your post. I have seen that thought before, and I dunno I kind of interpret the scene differently, or feel it is a bit more open ended. To be clear not saying you are wrong or anything. Just the way the scene plays out, to me, we have no idea who Harkaylain is. Harkaylain could be someone from the same order as the person Dalinar is pretending to be. Harkaylain could be another spren from the same radiant order as the person Dalinar is pretending to be. Basically I dunno if Harkaylain is necesarily a shardplate "smith" or some such that makes it. 

 

Oathbringer page 352

"I think something might be wrong with my armor!" Dalinar shouted to him "I can't make my helm retract!"

In response, the other Radiant made his vanish. Dalinar caught sight of a puff of Light or mist. Beneath the helm, the man had dark skin and curly black hair. His eyes glowed blue "Retract your helm?" he shouted "You haven't summoned your armor yet; you had to dismiss it so I could Lash you"

Oh, Dalinar thought. "I mean earlier. It wouldn't vanish when I wanted it to"

"Talk to Harkaylain then, or to your spren" The Windrunner frowned. "Will this be a problem for our mission?"

[Bigmikey357]

Conversely Harkeylain could be the head of his Order, like Kaladin for Bridge 4. I don't believe that Bondsmiths have that kind of control over what is essentially a personal bond, though the possibility of me being mistaken obviously exists.  Really anyone that can help guide a Radiant into the proper mindset should be able to help a Radiant achieve or maintain Plate. Syl does this for Kaladin on occasion,  Hoid serves that purpose for Shallan,  Navani and sometimes Adolin help Dalinar in stages. Given the nature of bond formation and the types of people the spren typically pick, it's probably wise to have a therapist on permanent staff in Urithiru. 

[Ixthos]

@Karger the only problem is that that issue applies to all forms of making plate - any method of making plate, unless a person can only make a single version, makes the question of the exclusivity of the plate a key issue: why can a knight only make one plate? And the answer is either it has a little of the knight or spren inside it, a part that can't be removed or duplicated, or knights can make more, but otherwise don't or didn't see the need.

[Pathfinder]

Adding to this thread because I found something interesting on my re-read. Harkaylain is also mentioned, in the same vision, in Way of Kings. 

 

Way of Kings Page 306

The knight sniffed dismissively. "Voidbringers? These? No, this was Midnight Essence, though who released it is still a mystery." She looked to the side, expression growing distant. "Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. He-"

 

This is making me think Harkaylain is a bondsmith leader of the radiants at this time. He is both the person to predict the coming desolations as well as speaking regarding armor. Armor which theoretically is made up of spren which the bondsmith power set seems to be leaning towards (augmenting radiant surges and so on). If this is the case, this lends even more credence (to me) to my theory that a bondsmith is needed to help revive a dead shardblade. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Pathfinder