Magic System Components - General Theory

[Confused]

A Forum “well-established theory” (WET) states a User powers magic with Fuel and shapes the magical effect through a Focus. I agree with WET, with some tweaks.

I believe there are different types of magic systems that share different WET components. IMO, all magic systems have Focus and Fuel. All “people with magic” systems additionally have a User. “Catalytic people with magic” systems add what Khriss calls a “Catalyst.”

I detail each magical component in related posts to isolate those topics for separate discussion. In this post, I’ll first summarize the differences among magic systems. I then state how I think the components relate to one another and how they apply to specific magic systems. I call “revised” WET, “Re-WET.”

Types of Magic Systems

I theorize there are two main types of magic systems: "Interaction with nature” systems and “people with magic” systems. IMO, the “people with magic” systems – systems where sapient beings can direct the magical effect – are subdivided into those that use “Catalysts” and those that don’t. I think Catalysts are substances Users consume to Invest themselves with Shard “power” (Spiritual Realm Investiture not part of a Spiritweb – IMO the cosmere’s Spiritual energy). Shards created “people with magic” systems post-Shattering, and they are found only on Major Shardworlds. In summary:

“Catalytic people with magic” systems – Sapient beings (“people”) can direct Shard power. Examples: Allomancy, Surgebinding, and Awakening.

“Non-Catalytic people with magic” systems – People can direct local Shardworld Investiture, but not Shard power. Examples: Feruchemy, the Returned, and non-Awakening Breath Transfers.

“Interaction with nature” systems – People can interact with local Shardworld Investiture, but cannot direct magic of any kind. Examples: Threnody’s shades, the Patji’s Eye ecosystem on First of the Sun, and Roshar’s pre-Shattering magical ecosystem.

Preliminary Thought

IMO, Adonalsium created the “interaction with nature” systems when he formed the cosmere. The first WoB above states, “There is inherent Investiture on every world created.” Shards later added their Investiture to some of these systems, but these systems are still “natural” in the sense they are built into their planets, part of their planets’ Spiritwebs.

“People with magic” systems OTOH are IMO artificial constructs the Shards created to approximate how the Shards themselves make magic. Shards think, and magic happens. “People’s” minds are too weak to direct large amounts of power by themselves. Magic system components IMO are “work-arounds” to fill this gap. For this reason, some components don’t fit neatly into a model. Focus, for example, overlaps other components like a User’s commands and Catalysts.

 WET

Here’s @Spoolofwhool’s succinct and representative expression of WET:

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Each manifestation of investiture has three necessary components: The user, the focus, and the fuel.

User: The entity using the magic. Usually a sapient entity, but can be other objects.

Focus: Something which somehow determines the outcome of the magic. 

Fuel: The default source of investiture which is used to power the magic.

Re-WET

Here’s my suggestion to revise WET’s components. I discuss each Re-WET component in the linked posts.

User: A person whose mind directs the Fuel.

Focus: A component that determines which power is available for magic. 

Fuel:  The power or local Investiture that causes a magical effect.

Catalyst: A substance Users consume to Invest themselves with Shard power.

Note on “User”: I think a User must be a sapient being, a “person.” I also think the User component includes magical “Identity,” “innate Investiture,” and “Initiation.” Identity IMO is the relationship between the User and their native Shardworld’s Investiture. Innate Investiture is the Investiture grafted onto a User’s soul that makes them a User. Initiation is the process by which a potential User becomes an actual User. I discuss these in the “User” post.

Note on “Focus”: I believe a Focus determines the power available for magic. IMO, local Shardworld Investiture cannot be further Focused. It already embodies the “essence” of the power that created it.

Note on “Fuel”: I follow WET’s convention of naming magic-causing Investiture “Fuel.” As so defined, upper case “Fuel” seems more of a magical engine than that engine’s “fuel.” Lower case “fuel” is a substance consumed to provide energy to a process, like gasoline energizes a car’s motion. I believe all magic does have such “fuel,” which I discuss in the “Fuel” post. Please bear in mind, though, that both WET and Re-WET identify “Fuel” as the substance that causes magic to happen, not the substance consumed to add energy to the magical process.

Note on “Catalyst”: I believe each Catalyst is made from a Shard’s “essence,” the Shard’s converted power. On Scadrial, metal is Preservation’s “concentrated essence” (BoM, Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359). On the other Major Shardworlds, I believe that “essence” is a form of the Shardworld’s local Investiture. I theorize this Investiture is found in Roshar’s highstorms, Taldain’s irradiated oceans, Nalthis’ electromagnetic radiation (EMR), and Sel’s ground. Catalysts add energy to the magical process (and hence are “fuel”); but unlike chemical catalysts, the process consumes them.

Note on “magic systems”: WET equates the term “manifestation of Investiture” with “magic system.” While I don’t think it matters much, I’m unconvinced the terms mean the same thing. In the Mistborn Ars Arcana, Khriss describes the Metallic Arts as “manifestations of Investiture.” She doesn’t describe magic systems in other books that way, which suggests the term isn’t definitional.  I interpret the term literally – a “manifestation of Investiture” is how Investiture manifests in a planet’s Physical Realm. Thus, I see Stormlight and Radiantspren as Rosharan “manifestations of Investiture.” Neither is a “magic system.” IMO, they are components of the Surgebinding “magic system,” its Catalyst and Focus, respectively.

I believe the “interaction with nature” systems have only the Fuel and Focus components, and non-Catalytic “people with magic” systems add a User. IMO, the Catalytic systems have all four magical components and work as follows:

A. The User consumes a Catalyst, like metals, Stormlight or body water.

B. The Catalyst causes a Shard’s power to “begin [and ‘keep running’] an Investiture” of the User (BoM Ars Arcanum – “On the Three Metallic Arts – Allomancy.”) The Investiture ends when the User fully consumes the Catalyst.

C. The Focus determines which power Invests the User.

D. The User’s mind then directs the Invested power to “shape” the desired magical effect.

Specific Systems

@SpoolofWhool’s post includes examples of how WET applies to some magic systems. After quoting Spool’s WET examples, I suggest how Re-WET would apply to the same systems.

Allomancy:

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The user is the allomancer. The focus is the metal they burn. The fuel is Preservation's power. To put it all together: The allomancer draws Preservation's power through the metal. The metal filters it, shaping the power such that it causes a specific effect, such as rioting, soothing, leeching, metal pushing/pulling, etc.

The User is the Allomancer. I think the metal they burn is both a Catalyst and a Focus. Any Allomantic metal will act as a Catalyst to enable the Allomancer to Invest himself with Preservation’s power. The specific metal chosen will act as a Focus to determine the specific power the Allomancer Invests himself with – rioting, soothing, leeching, etc. IMO, the Allomancer himself shapes the power’s specific effect – how and when to use that power to riot, soothe or leech. While metal Catalysts are consumed in Allomancy, its Fuel is Preservation’s power.

Feruchemy:

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The user is the feruchemist. The focus is the metal they store into. The fuel is the feruchemist. The feruchemist converts some of themselves into investiture, which is then stored into the metal. I think each metal can only store the investiture derived from a certain part of their being, which determines which attribute is stored.

The User is the Feruchemist. He directs Feruchemy’s magical effect when he chooses to time-shift an attribute. IOW, I think the conversion of “some of themselves into investiture” is Feruchemy’s magical effect, not its Fuel. I think the Fuel that causes this magical effect is the Feruchemical gene, the Feruchemist’s “end-neutral” internal Investiture.

I believe even “end-neutral” Feruchemy consumes a “fuel” to make the magic. IMO, Brandon confirms this when he says “end-neutral” systems rely on a “facilitating power.” I believe this “facilitating power” keeps the Feruchemist’s internal Investiture “end-neutral” and thermodynamically sound. I think each Feruchemical metal is a Focus for the specific power that “facilitates” time-shifting the corresponding attribute. (I discuss this more in my Fuel post.)

Awakening:

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The user is the awakener. The focus is the command they use. The fuel is breath. The awakener creates a mental command and passes on breath to the target. The mental commands shapes what the awakened object does while the breath grants it the investiture required to perform the necessary actions, which are slowly consumed over time. A side-effect is that colour is consumed from a nearby source, though how it does is unknown, and the type of colour seems to have no effect as far as I'm aware.

The User is the Awakener. Brandon says Awakening’s Focus is the visualized command. The User’s command both selects the power to Invest the User and directs that power to Awaken the object for the visualized task. “Draining color” (as I describe it below) Catalyzes Awakening and Invests the Awakener with Endowment’s power.

I don’t believe Awakening’s Fuel is Breath (though maybe I missed a WoB that clearly says that). I think Breath is Endowment’s Invested “life-force,” the target of the Awakener’s command, not its Fuel. Breath held by the Invested object just gets old and loses potency like Breath does in humans. IMO Breath decay is not consumption. Color loss from simple Breath Transfers (an end-neutral magic) comes from the transferor’s reduced Breaths, lowering his Heightening. IOW, color loss from simple Breath Transfers does not act as a Catalyst that summons power.

I think Awakening’s Catalyst is the Invested electromagnetic radiation (EMR) colored objects absorb. Awakening’s Fuel is the Endowment power that Catalyst summons through the Focus of the Awakener’s command. “Draining color” withdraws the absorbed Investiture from the colored object. Awakeners can easily “drain” black (fully absorbed EMR), but cannot drain white (fully reflected EMR). This Investiture withdrawal causes colored objects to turn gray, just like a Shardblade-severed limb that’s lost its connection to the soul.

I theorize Endowment Invested the Tears of Edgli with vivid color because that narrows the reflected light EMR spectrum (and is more noticeable). The broader absorbed EMR spectrum remains, leaving more Investiture for an Awakener to withdraw. The “sticky” dyes the Tears create mark where an Awakener can find Investiture.

Surgebinding:

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The user is the surgebinder. The focus is the spren/bond*, and gems**. The fuel is stormlight. The surgebinder accesses the specific two surges through their focus, and uses stormlight to bind it, which consumes the stormlight in the process. Additionally, when binding the surge of transformation to soulcast, gems are required as an additional focus to determine the essence being created. 

*spren/bond are two contended foci. Honestly, I don't think it matters unless the same type of spren is able to create different bonds.
**Gems aren't necessary for all surgebinding.

The User is the Surgebinder. I agree with @SpoolofWhool that it probably doesn’t matter whether the Focus is the spren or the bond, but IMO spren are Roshar’s Focus. Each “natural” (pre-Shattering) spren personifies a different power, like life, fire, or gravity. These “natural” spren can Focus “anti-gravity” power, for example, into sky eels and greatshells. I believe Radiantspren’s mixed Investitures make them dual Focuses. (I haven’t thought through whether gems are soulcasting’s additional Focus and don’t address that.)

IMO Surgebinders consume Stormlight to Catalyze Honor and/or Cultivation’s Investiture of them. The Radiantspren determines which power Invests the Surgebinder. I think the Surgebinder “binds” the Surges by cognitively directing the Invested power to create some magical effect – choosing gravity’s vector or drawing a new persona.

Conclusion

I analyze each Re-WET component in detail in my posts on Fuel, Focus, Users and Catalysts. Those are the threads to post your comments about the components themselves. Here I try to address how I think these components fit together. In summary,

All systems have Fuel and are Focused.
Shards added a User and Catalyst.
Mortals now can direct
Their own magic effect,
Like becoming a soul-forging analyst.

[Da-dum… The first of several such summaries. Blame @Calderis, the Adonalsium of cosmere limericks. He inspired me to summarize theory in verse and even write an English sonnet about my three favorite fantasy writers. I enjoy writing theory, but @Calderis has added some entertaining challenges. He’s also the source of the phrase “well-established theory” I use to describe the “User-Focus-Fuel” model.]

Regards!

Edited August 28, 2017 by Confused
To install links and clean up.

[Calderis]

First off, thanks for the mentions and I'm glad you enjoy the limerick thread, even if (or perhaps because) it annoys some. 

To the matter at hand. I've looked through all four of your threads and for the most part I don't disagree. The intent based nature of magic in the Cosmere does seems to require sapience (at least to occur naturally). As usual though, I tend to disagree with you on the specifics. 

There's a lot to did through in your four posts, so I apologize for the lack of organization to my thoughts here. 

Metal is obviously a catalyst in Allomancy (well, with some quibbling). No argument there. But the others... 

Awakening: if there is a catalyst here, and I don't think there is, it would again be the focus, the command. A catalyst is something that sets of a (chemical) reaction, but is not itself a part of that reaction. In the process of Awakening, the command sparks the process, imprinting itself into the breath transferred to animate the object. I have no idea what causes the color drain or what it achieves, but it is clearly part of the process itself. 

Awakening is a tricky one. He breath on really seems to disappear through long term degradation, or loss through death of a holder. It is (in my opinion) the fuel, because it is gaseous investiture, but it's form is not readily consumed. It acts more as an investiture construct than as a true fuel source.

Color drain is also a part of the actual Awakening process, because if Breath is merely transferred to an object, but there's no command for action, there's no drain. 

The  mechanics behind breath are still so murky. I want to know more here.

Surgebinding: this one... Sorry, but this one I disagree on literally everything stated. I think that the focus is the bond, and thank to @Toaster Retribution, I can finally put why into words. 

The Nahel bond is symbiotic. Both the Spren and surgebinder gain something from it. If the Spren and not the bond, were the focus, why would the Spren gain anything at all? In contrast you have fabrials, that trap a spren and keep it bound in a non-sybiotic manner, and in that the Spren gains nothing. The nature of the bond is as important for the effect as the Spren type. 

Stormlight itself is gaseous investiture. It isn't a catalyst to direct the power or shape it and start a continually process like metal is to allomancy. You hold it, you spend it in surgebinding, and if you don't have enough, you can't do what you want. It's a straight forward fuel source. 

Taldain: water as a catalyst makes perfect sense here. It's a necessary element to spark the flow of investiture, but other than it's consumption does nothing here. I don't that I agree with the rest of your points on the invested oceans but yay or nay, I agree with the main point here. 

Sel: I'm not going to say there's not catalysts here, because there's so many systems on Sel that it probable, and one of the systems we only know about vaguely (the potions) is literal magic chemistry.

The Aons or stamps though? Those seem to be pretty direct interactions with the Dor. You make the symbol needed, apply it, and the Dor acts accordingly. No catalyst needed. Or again the catalyst is the same as the focus. 

In closing here, I don't think Catalysts are a Cosmere constant like the focus. They occur, and the most notable and obvious is the metals in Allomancy, but beyond that the only other I agree with is the water in Sand Mastery. 

[Fezzik]

What do you think about hemalurgy? Non-catalytic magic system? User is the spiker, focus is the metal (coupled with intent, which is true of any magic system),  fuel is what? The placing of the spike in a bindpoint or the spiritweb of the middleman?

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, john203 said:

What do you think about hemalurgy? Non-catalytic magic system? User is the spiker, focus is the metal (coupled with intent, which is true of any magic system),  fuel is what? The placing of the spike in a bindpoint or the spiritweb of the middleman?

I don't really think fuel is the right word in this instance. It contains the investiture of the stolen spiritweb, and integrates it into another. 

It's a transfer with Decay, but it doesn't use a fuel of its own. Just provides access to another type. 

[FiveLate]

Ok I have a serious issue with a bit of your terminology.  The word Catalyst.   I really wish you had made this a combined post, it would be easier.  I'll go into details under the Catalyst post.

[Confused]

Thanks, @Calderis, for your thoughts.

Catalyst

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A catalyst is something that sets off a (chemical) reaction, but is not itself a part of that reaction.

Ironically, I edited out the following language from the “Catalysts” post:

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A cosmere Catalyst does not act like a true chemical catalyst. Chemical catalysts accelerate chemical reactions, but they are not consumed in that process. Cosmere Catalysts, OTOH, are consumed…. If Khriss or Brandon used a different word to describe this “fuel,” I would use that word, but they don’t. Brandon says the ideas and words in his books are canon. Chemically appropriate or not, for now I’ll stick with the word “Catalyst” as the name for this magical component.

You and @FiveLate think this is important. To me, we’re back to Juliet’s lament from the balcony: “What’s in a name?” Regardless of whether Catalysts behave like chemical “catalysts,” Khriss/Brandon gave that name to the substance that fulfills the power-summoning function. That’s good enough for me.

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I don't think Catalysts are a Cosmere constant like the focus.

I agree. I think only Fuel and Focus are constants among magic systems. But I also think Catalysts are the sole means by which Users can access Shard power to direct some magical effect. Catalysts IMO are a necessary component of the Catalytic systems.

Awakening

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In the process of Awakening, the command sparks the process, imprinting itself into the breath transferred to animate the object. I have no idea what causes the color drain or what it achieves, but it is clearly part of the process itself. 

I agree with your first sentence. As to the second, none of us “knows” what causes color drain. I’ve presented a plausible explanation that’s consistent with my general theory of magic systems. My Pre-Shattering Magic post goes into more detail about Adonalsium’s inherent Nalthian magic system – IMO a quantum physics system based on photons. I do think my explanation for both simple Breath transfers and actual Awakening accounts for the known phenomena on Nalthis.

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Awakening is a tricky one. He breath on [The Breath?] really seems to disappear through long term degradation, or loss through death of a holder. It is (in my opinion) the fuel, because it is gaseous investiture, but it's form is not readily consumed. It acts more as an investiture construct than as a true fuel source.

Color drain is also a part of the actual Awakening process, because if Breath is merely transferred to an object, but there's no command for action, there's no drain.

My theory distinguishes between “Fuel” and “fuel.” The former is Investiture that causes the magic, and the latter is Investiture (or metal) that is consumed to add energy to the magical process or otherwise to ensure compliance with thermodynamics. I believe the “Fuel” for the Catalytic systems is Shard power, and their “fuel” is the Catalyst. I believe the “Fuel” in the other systems is a form of local Shardworld Investiture (like a Feruchemist’s internal Investiture), and the “fuel” is the Shard power that “facilitates” the magical process. I explain why in the Fuel post.

You’ll have to explain to me the relevance of Fuel as “gaseous Investiture.” I know Brandon describes the properties of different states of Investiture, but I don’t know why Fuel must be in one state or another.

I agree Breath can be “merely transferred” to an object, with a command (“My Breath is yours”) but no requested action or “drain.” As you say, there’s no color drain because it’s a simple transfer – you’re not animating the object, just storing Breaths in the object (or another person). Actual Awakening does require the “color” drain. That’s because IMO Awakening, unlike Breath transfer, is Fueled by Endowment’s power. The “color” drain – which I think is the drain of absorbed EMR, not reflected EMR (color) – is Awakening’s Catalyst that summons that power.

There is a color “shift” from simple Breath transfers. The change in Breaths in each person lowers the transferor’s Heightening and raises the transferee’s Heightening. IMO, that’s a different phenomenon from Awakening’s “color” drain.

You might want to look again at my comments about “Identity and Awakening” in the User post. I think it adds something to this discussion.

Surgebinding

Let’s start with the Focus. I know you’ve had many discussions on this one. As my post says, I don’t think it matters much, but am happy to engage a bit on this issue.

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The Nahel bond is symbiotic. Both the Spren and surgebinder gain something from it. If the Spren and not the bond, were the focus, why would the Spren gain anything at all? In contrast, you have fabrials, that trap a spren and keep it bound in a non-symbiotic manner, and in that the Spren gains nothing. The nature of the bond is as important for the effect as the Spren type.

I agree the Nahel bond is symbiotic. IMO, the difference between “bonds” and other forms of Connections is the reciprocal nature of bonds – they are mutual Connections where both sides benefit. Otherwise, there is nothing special about Roshar’s bonds – the Returned are attached to their Divine Breath, but that Breath gets no known benefit from the Returned. I believe Honor’s Mandate (intent) is “bonding.” Like the nature of “honor” itself, the benefits and burdens of bonding are mutual.

Thus, by acknowledging that a fabrial spren “gains nothing” from the fabrial, you acknowledge that the spren can be Connected to the fabrial, but can’t be bonded to it. Honor’s bonds IMO form reciprocal, mutually beneficial relationships.

Your model predicts a different bond for each spren type. But spren are the personifications of Roshar’s Surges, how Roshar’s sapient populations perceive the Spiritual Realm powers. Each spren is the embodiment of a different power, that power’s “essence.” Why would a pre-Shattering spren, the essence of a single power, need a unique bond to express that power? That seems unnecessarily complicated.

Odium’s Investiture IMO doesn’t bond at all. Hate corrodes and divides; it does not form relationships. I think Odium’s Mandate (intent) is to sever Connections. IMO, it’s the opposite of bonding. The best evidence of this Mandate is what Odium’s magic produces – a void, the great emptiness that’s left when all Connections sever. Dalinar’s last WoK vision shows this void. We don’t know yet how Voidbinding works, but I suspect it’s a necromantic magic that attaches to dead bodies, binding the “void” created by the absence of life. I believe Odium’s Investiture “unmakes” the dead bodies’ souls. With no bonds, only the voidspren themselves can Focus Odium’s power.

You previously asserted “bondage” as an example of a Focus-bond for both fabrials and Odium’s “slaves.” How would that work if bonds are supposed to be reciprocal? Since Odium doesn’t (can’t) bond, then under the “one Focus type per planet” rule, bonds can’t be Roshar’s Focus.

My 2 cents on a beaten-to-death subject…. Now let’s discuss Stormlight as Catalyst.

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Stormlight itself is gaseous investiture. It isn't a catalyst to direct the power or shape it and start a continually process like metal is to allomancy. You hold it, you spend it in surgebinding, and if you don't have enough, you can't do what you want. It's a straight forward fuel source.

Brandon states the cosmere has certain “unifying laws.” IMO, all magic systems of a type should run on the same “unifying laws.” If one system Fueled by Shard power has a Catalyst, then all such systems should. Khriss clearly and canonically states that both Allomancy and Sand Mastery use a metal and water Catalyst, respectively. These Catalysts don’t convert to power, they summon power.

Your comparison of Surgebinding and Allomancy is apt. Just like metals, “You hold [Stormlight], you spend it in Surgebinding, and if you don’t have enough, you can’t do what you want.” You conclude Stormlight is a “straight forward fuel source.” Yet you don’t conclude that about metals, though every one of your statements is equally true of metals. I presume that’s because we know metals are not Investiture.

But both metals and Stormlight (and other Catalysts) are composed of Shard “essence.” I believe metals are 100% Preservation’s essence, incapable of decay (other than through oxidation and radioactivity). That’s why they can be Allomancy’s Catalyst.

Other Major Shardworlds are mostly Adonalsium essence, with Shard essence inserted into the local Investitures. IMO, mortals can’t use the non-Investiture essence on these Shardworlds (like rocks or trees or animals) as Catalysts, because that’s Adonalsium essence. But mortals can use Shard essence as “super-fuel for any of the powers.” I believe Shard essence is concentrated in the local Investitures. These Investitures are IMO the Catalysts for these magic systems: Stormlight, and Invested water, EMR and ground.

Sel

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Sel: I'm not going to say there's not catalysts here, because there's so many systems on Sel that it probable, and one of the systems we only know about vaguely (the potions) is literal magic chemistry.

The Aons or stamps though? Those seem to be pretty direct interactions with the Dor. You make the symbol needed, apply it, and the Dor acts accordingly. No catalyst needed. Or again the catalyst is the same as the focus. 

Sel was all one system once. The Shards’ splintering and dumping into the Cognitive Realm balkanized that system, but its remnants remain in every mini-system. One such remnant IMO is the Investiture Adonalsium first placed in the ground that the Shards later supplemented.

I think AonDor differs from the other Selish systems because of its dependence on the Focus Aon Rao. IMO, as I describe in the OP, Sel’s ground Investiture Catalyzed Raoden’s completion of that Aon. Otherwise, he could have simply drawn the correct form in the air with the same Dor-infusing effect and saved himself the trouble of running around. But he didn’t and, IMO, couldn’t. As long as Aon Rao Focuses power into Elantris, further catalysis is unnecessary. The Dor-infused Elantrians can draw Aons as they choose.

In TES, Shai applies squid ink to each of her soulstamps. The Bloodsealer applies Shai’s blood to his stamps. I think Dakhor Dor is catalyzed by the Investiture in the monks’ bones. These organic substances – squid ink, blood and bone – IMO each hold Investiture that’s leached from the ground into the food chain. I believe Selish Users  consume those organic materials to Catalyze the Dor’s Investiture of them.

Thanks, again, @Calderis, for your comments. If you don’t mind, I have two quick personal questions for you (and understand if you don’t want to answer): Does “Calderis” refer to your proximity to Crater Lake (a caldera), and are you a Reed College grad? I ask the latter question because of a feeling I’ve gotten from some of your posts.

*   *   *   *   *

@john203, good question! It took both @Calderis and @Oversleep to convince me Hemalurgy is an actual magic system! I agree with your observation that it’s a non-Catalytic “people with magic” system. Thus, the Fuel should be local Investiture. I speculate the Investiture Spiritually held in the transferor’s blood is the Fuel; hence, “Hema”-lurgy. It keeps the spiked innate Investiture from decaying too quickly as the spike moves from victim to target. Without the blood, I believe the transfer wouldn’t work.

Normally such systems IMO also use a “fuel” that’s consumed to add energy to the magical process. In other non-Catalytic systems, this “fuel” is a “facilitating” Shard power. But Hemalurgy is an “end-negative” magic system. I believe there still is some “fuel,” some power that adds energy to the process for Hemalurgy to work, just to be consistent with other non-Catalytic systems...the “unifying laws” again. That added energy apparently isn’t enough to offset Hemalurgy’s power loss, though.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Confused

[Calderis]

@Confusedwe know that metal is a non invested "catalyst," as metal from anywhere will work. It a key to the spiritual realm for investiture. 

Stormlight is pure Investiture. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1177#12

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QUESTION

Question about the stormlight itself : a highstorm, full of stormlight, fills the spheres. Then, the KR use the stormlight or the stormlight evaporates with time. Question : where does the stormlight in highstorms come from ? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the stormlight ?

BRANDON SANDERSON

the stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

The Spren or the bond depending on your interpretation shape the investiture to the desired effect the same way the metal chooses the power. 

Using Stormlight is like burning the mists, except the system is designed for that so it doesn't tear you apart. 

[Confused]

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Spren or the bond depending on your interpretation shape the investiture to the desired effect the same way the metal chooses the power. 

Using Stormlight is like burning the mists, except the system is designed for that so it doesn't tear you apart. 

Now I'm confused (pun unintended). This sounds like you agree with me. Yes, "Stormlight is like burning the mists." Exactly! When you burn the mists on Scadrial, you vaporize because the power is Investing you directly rather than through the metal Focus. There's nothing to slow down or restrict the power flow. Also, Vin kept burning the mists, Investing herself with lots of power.

I believe that's how all Catalysts work. The difference on the other Major Shardworlds is, as you say, their system designs limit how much power a User can access. Surgebinders can infuse only so much Stormlight, and it's either consumed or dissipates. Sand Masters can only dehydrate so much. Sel's forms as Focuses automatically limit the Dor's flow. And I believe (but am not sure) that there is a relationship between the number of Breaths one holds and the amount of Invested EMR one can drain that  protects the Awakener from vaporization.

If that's what you're saying, then we agree. 

[Calderis]

What I'm trying to say is that the mists tore troughs in Vin because Allomancy is designed to be gated through the metals. 

Surgebinding is like burning the mists, except that power is designed to deal with raw spiritual investiture so that problem doesn't occur. 

It's not the same thing. Because Allomancy can't burn straight investiture without destroying the physical body, whereas surgebinding can't function without using raw investiture. 

[Confused]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's not the same thing. Because Allomancy can't burn straight investiture without destroying the physical body, whereas surgebinding can't function without using raw investiture. 

Allomancy CAN "burn straight Investiture without destroying the physical body." Vin burned the mists when she took on TLR. She didn't vaporize then, because she took in less of the mists than she did when she ascended.

Again, all Catalysts are made from Shard essence. Because Scadrial is made only from Shard essence - and metals are Preservation's "concentrated essence" - metals suffice there. But elsewhere, where Adonalsium's essence predominates, the super-fuel of Shard essence is found in the Shard Investitures themselves, the only distinct part of their "bodies" on those planets.

[Calderis]

I'll have to agree to disagree 

[FiveLate]

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

What I'm trying to say is that the mists tore troughs in Vin because Allomancy is designed to be gated through the metals. 

Surgebinding is like burning the mists, except that power is designed to deal with raw spiritual investiture so that problem doesn't occur. 

It's not the same thing. Because Allomancy can't burn straight investiture without destroying the physical body, whereas surgebinding can't function without using raw investiture. 

Except that spren filter on Roshar.  This is why Brandon said that what szeth was doing was so dangerous with the honorblade.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Except that spren filter on Roshar.  This is why Brandon said that what szeth was doing was so dangerous with the honorblade.

I don't believe so.

I think that Tanavast was unable to bond directly to the Heralds without some major consequences, so he created the Honorblades as an intermediary. Their bond was broken when Honor died. 

They're dangerous, because they were never meant to use stormlight. They were supposed to be fueled by honor. Their the dead spren equivalent of a bond with Honor. 

[FiveLate]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I don't believe so.

I think that Tanavast was unable to bond directly to the Heralds without some major consequences, so he created the Honorblades as an intermediary. Their bond was broken when Honor died. 

They're dangerous, because they were never meant to use stormlight. They were supposed to be fueled by honor. Their the dead spren equivalent of a bond with Honor. 

Yes...exactly...what are we disagreeing on?

 

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Yes...exactly...what are we disagreeing on?

 

That the blade itself is the focus 

[FiveLate]

Meh I have to go read all the terminology associated with this again...

I think of this stuff as Source, Key, Filter, and Output.

Edited August 30, 2017 by FiveLate
Clarification

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, FiveLate said:

Meh I have to go read all the terminology associated with this again...

I think of this stuff as Source, Key, Filter, and Output.

And I think of them as fuel, focus and effect. 

The "key" and "filter" are usually the same thing. The focus. 

[FiveLate]

31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And I think of them as fuel, focus and effect. 

The "key" and "filter" are usually the same thing. The focus. 

Not sure I agree... Ill sleep on it.  Truthfully, I make them all into electrical circuits....it's what I know.

Edited August 31, 2017 by FiveLate
Clarification

[shadowwisp]

On 8/29/2017 at 5:50 PM, Confused said:

Again, all Catalysts are made from Shard essence. Because Scadrial is made only from Shard essence - and metals are Preservation's "concentrated essence" - metals suffice there. 

I'm not fully up to date with knowledge/theories on this forum but I thought that the metals on Scadrial are just normal metals. I mean yes, they were both created from scratch by Preservation and Ruin but I didn't they had any special properties that stone or dirt on Scadrial doesn't also have. If that is not the case, would this mean that Allomancers/Feruchemists/Hemalurgists could only use metals from Scadrial and any metals from other planets would be inert?  

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, shadowwisp said:

I'm not fully up to date with knowledge/theories on this forum but I thought that the metals on Scadrial are just normal metals. I mean yes, they were both created from scratch by Preservation and Ruin but I didn't they had any special properties that stone or dirt on Scadrial doesn't also have. If that is not the case, would this mean that Allomancers/Feruchemists/Hemalurgists could only use metals from Scadrial and any metals from other planets would be inert?  

They are normal metals. 

I also thought that R&P fully created Scadrial from nothing, but I had that pounded out of me. The world is more strongly invested than normal, but they used existing materials from the solar system to do so. 

I have no idea how to source that, but it was forced on me enough to be unforgettable. 

The metals on Scadrial are no different than anywhere else. 

[shadowwisp]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The world is more strongly invested than normal, but they used existing materials from the solar system to do so. 

Ahhh, okay that makes a lot more sense now. Thanks! 

[Calderis]

Just now, shadowwisp said:

Ahhh, okay that makes a lot more sense now. Thanks! 

Yeah the only thing they fully created from nothing were their variety of humans

[Confused]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

I also thought that R&P fully created Scadrial from nothing, but I had that pounded out of me. The world is more strongly invested than normal, but they used existing materials from the solar system to do so.

Calderis, I also think “R&P fully created Scadrial from nothing.” Did I miss something?

Here’s my understanding, and I welcome text or WoB correction:

1. Adonalsium creates the cosmere. Pre-Shattering, the Physical Realm consists entirely of his essence. IIRC, Brandon has never fully defined “essence.” I define it as “raw power” that's been converted into some other substance, whether matter, energy or another form of Investiture.

2. Adonalsium Shatters and the Vessels assume his power. Ruin and Preservation, alone among the Shards, go off to make something entirely new – Scadrial. This WoB states Scadrial is “goofy” for that reason.

3. Scadrial consists 100% of Ruin and Preservtation’s essence, their power converted into that planet. I think they didn’t so much use “existing materials” as conform Scadrial to the same physical/chemical structure as existing materials. Otherwise, Scadrial wouldn’t be 100% Shard essence.

4. Brandon says Scadrial is less heavily Invested than most planets, not “more strongly invested than normal.”

Calderis, in response to your “agreement to disagree” post above:

Calderis and I disagree
In how we read this WoB
I value debate
But Words rarely relate
To the “truth” that we each think we see.

Most things are subject to interpretation. Thanks for continuing the conversation.