Frozen

[PeterAhlstrom]

Major spoilers, so don't read if you haven't seen it.

 

Here are some posts I made elsewhere showing the evolution of my thoughts on the movie, especially the snowman.

 

January 20:

 

Saw Frozen. I liked a ton of things about it, but that snowman made it a much worse movie.

 

The snowman was definitely getting a lot of laughs in the kid-heavy theater crowd. But the movie could have done without it and just played up the reindeer more if they needed more comic relief.

 

The more I think about the movie the more I like it. It does some great stuff with trope subversion. I'd love to see a version without the snowman though.

 

The snowman was not quite as annoying as Eddie Murphy. His character was not deliberately annoying like that. It was annoying for largely meta reasons. There were actual in-world reasons for the way the snowman acted; it's not a snarky sidekick character.

 

The snowman may not have bothered me as much if I'd seen the movie ten years ago.

 

January 21:

 

I saw the movie again today. (we were doing individual daddy/daughter days.) and my opinions were confirmed. And I like all the songs. 

 

I like the movie a lot. I'm just going to pretend there is no Olaf.

 

January 23:

 

I've been thinking about Frozen a lot, and I've decided that although the snowman Olaf does feel like a non sequitur in many scenes, he's not bolted on to the movie but was always intended to play the role he plays at the end. Some spoilers.

 

Olaf has a reason to know things about love—he is the embodiment of Elsa & Anna's relationship that could have been. For years Anna has been begging Elsa to spend time with her, and what she always says is "Do you want to build a snowman?" And the truth is that Elsa desperately wants to. When she finally lets loose and starts using her powers, Olaf is one of the very first things she makes. She unconsciously imbues her love for Anna into his personality, in the first moment she stops repressing her feelings.

 

So I have to accept Olaf, though I do think he could have been done a bit differently.

 

I also really like how the movie doesn't go and say outright that Elsa is really the one whose heart has been frozen for years. She was doing what she was doing out of her love for Anna—but it was the wrong thing to do, and it turned to fear, which made everything worse.

 

There's not much from the Hans Christian Anderson story the Snow Queen in the movie, but one sibling teaching the other not to repress feelings is the important thing that made the transition.

 

January 28:

 

I love this movie so much. I didn't see it until last week when I took my oldest daughter to it, and then the next day I took her younger sister.

 

I'm going to have to think about it some more, but this may possibly surpass the Little Mermaid as my favorite Disney movie (I saw that 7 times in the theater when it came out, and haven't seen any other movie in a theather more than 3 times). And I'll have to watch the Hunt for Red October again to see if Frozen surpasses it as my favorite movie of all time.

 

This is interesting to me because there are a couple of things I dislike about Frozen, whereas of recent movies I see Tangled as nearly flawless. But the emotional reaction I get to Frozen puts it so high up on my list.

 

January 30:

 

This is yet another post about the snowman in Frozen. It contains major spoilers, so if you haven't seen the movie yet (Karen), ignore this.

 

I've done a bit more thinking on this, trying to explain some things, and I've come to a few more insights. The more I think about this, the more I think this stuff was intentional on the part of the filmmakers.

 

I said or implied before that Olaf is an embodiment of Elsa's subconscious, which she imbued in him in the moment of his creation. This is in more ways than the one I pointed out before, that he embodies her relationship with Anna—who always wanted to build a snowman with her, and she always wanted to say yes but held herself back.

 

1. Olaf's desire for summer

 

The first major thing Olaf does is sing about what summer would be like, after saying, "I've always loved the idea of summer." Olaf has been in existence for less than a day. How could he "always" have loved the idea of summer?

 

It's because Elsa has been freezing her emotions for years, and she unconsciously has wanted to get away from that. She desperately wants summer in her life—she wants to thaw, but is sure she never can.

 

2. Olaf the love expert

 

When Olaf made the comment "You know, I consider myself to be a love expert," it seemed like a throwaway line. Far from it. Olaf represents everything that Elsa knows or thinks she knows about love. When Olaf talks to Anna about love at the end, how it's putting someone else's needs before yours, this is Elsa's understanding of love.

 

But Olaf's (and Elsa's) understanding of love is still imperfect. When Olaf sees Kristoff coming back, he says, "Oh, I guess he doesn't love you after all." That also seemed like just a funny line, but it's much more than that. Elsa thinks that love is ALL about self-sacrifice—she's been shutting herself away for years, keeping herself apart from the people she loves.

 

At the end when Anna sacrifices herself for Elsa and Elsa realizes that Anna loves her, she also realizes that love is not just keeping yourself from hurting the ones you love, but love is going to the one you love and being with them when they need you. And in that moment when Elsa realizes that love will thaw, summer returns to her life for the first time in forever.

 

[lordofsoup]

Not gona lie, I took my sisters and feel asleep.  They loved it, so I might have to give it a second try if you liked it this much.  

[Quiver]

Elsa is my favourite Disney Princess, bar none.

Now, Frozen is not Disney’s best film; there are a few too many musical numbers for my liking, and as was able to count the number of times this adaption of the Snow Queen made use of that myths on both hands.

But whatever flaws it has, Elsa is fantastic, and a progressive princess for the Disney library. For me, her entire appeal was summed up in a throwaway line by Anna:

"I just thought she had a thing about dirt!"

This single line resonated with me more than Ariel’s lost voice, or Aurora in her tower ever did.

Let’s make things clear; is Elsa gay? 
Maybe.
The movie certainly makes a case for it. She’s born with something which marks her out as being different. She spends the first third of the movie trying to fix herself, and ‘Let it go’, as a song, is sexually liberating. But while I applaud Disney for that, it isn’t why I emphasise with Elsa. I relate to her because, despite Anna’s, misunderstanding of the term, Elsa does have a thing about dirt. Her journey, for me is one of a person trying to conquer OCD. It’s a journey I myself am on.

For those of you who don’t know, OCD stands for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. It involves thoughts becoming linked with fears, fears which the sufferer believes can only be assuaged by following certain rituals.

For instance, someone might believe that touching dirt might make you sick- after all, animals might have been there. The solution is to wash your hands.
Or, in the case of Elsa, not touch anything by keeping herself concealed.

Part of the problem of OCD, I’ve found, is in explaining the fear to someone else. The most mundane of things can set it off, and once it does, the thought keeps going and going and going, building momentum until, finally, you cave in and have to do something, because it’s the only way to keep yourself safe. Okay, so maybe the thing you did isn’t- in the strictest sense- dangerous or necessary, but, well, if it makes you feel better, what’s the harm in doing it?

The harm is in perpetuating the fear. You might be okay, but it’s only because you did something to counteract it, so the next time it happens, you need to do it again, then the time after that, then the time after that, then…

Compare that scenario to Elsa.

She becomes afraid of causing harm with her powers. That’s a good thing, and both the trolls and the parents are right when they tell her that she needs to lap earn how to control it. But she deals with it in the worst way. The advice her parents give -“Conceal, don’t feel”- is well intentioned, and meant to keep her and her sister safe. It’s how someone with OCD rationalises the fear in their mind; tis thing is dangerous, so I need to take steps not to do it.

But we see that that is not working. Elsa’s dependence on her safety net gets so extreme that she is incapable of dealing without it, so that she is visibly anxious and distressed for the few seconds it will take to hold the sceptre barehanded. Place her in the ballroom, with her coats and gloves, and she’s cool. She’s relaxed. She’s in control.
Take that away, and she freaks out instantly.

Because avoidance isn’t a solution. It only -as the name suggests- avoids the problem, but the problem is still there. So when Elsa’s safety net comes away, and she exposes her magic at the ball, she can’t control it, because she hasn’t learnt how to deal with it. She’s learnt how to avoid getting into problems, but not how to fix what’s gone wrong, and as a result, the whole situation goes from bad to worse, as a few ice spikes turn into freezing lakes, turns into covering the kingdom in a never ending winter.

Stripped of all her backup, Elsa finally decides she has to Let It Go. She not only discards her gloves. She throws away her cloak, takes down her hair. She smiles. In the ballroom, she was happy, but it was measured, a happiness with the thoughts of “I need to do this, and this, and avoid this” ticking in the back of her head. With nothing left to lose, she throws herself into mastering her abilities and, in a single day, creates a palace of unsurpassed beauty and life. She’s more like the Elsa at the beginning, the child who helped build a snowman.

But that’s not my favourite part.
My favourite part? Is the way she backslides.

Having finally gotten control of what she can do, having reached some sort of a peace with herself, she meets Anna again. And it’s clear that what Elsa’s done is only a partial recovery, since she insists that she is going to isolate herself. Not only will it keep her safe, but it will be better for the kingdom as a whole. She has a new reason to avoid doing what she needs to do to confront the fear. So Anna tells her about the trouble she’s caused.

And Elsa breaks.
She thought that she had achieved a good balance, a way for her to live with herself while still concealing. Anna tells her she can’t, and Elsa’s response is to push back. She hurts her sister, the last thing she ever wants to do. She locks the door to the Winter palace to hide herself away from everyone, just like before. Her confidence is shattered, but, despite that, there’s still some hope.

Because she hasn’t put the gloves back on.

Elsa is not cursed. As her parents tell the trolls, she was born with her affliction, something that don’t understand and want to fix, but can’t. It’s an apt metaphor for sexuality, but it’s also a powerful one for OCD. It is something that affects the sufferer, something they find difficult to explain or to share with other people. The immediate response is to do whatever it takes to not feel bad, or afraid, or guilty over what is apart of you.

I love Elsa, and this film, because it taught me an important lesson about my fears.
It taught me to Let Them Go.

Frozen isn't the best film, even recently from Disney; I much prefer Tangled. But I connected with Elsa in a way that I haven't with any Disney character since the Lion King, so this is the most significant thing I can share about the film. Edited January 30, 2014 by Quiver

[PeterAhlstrom]

Too many musical numbers? Ha, I think it has too few. The last song we get is the troll song, and I could have used at least one more song later. (There's a concept reprise on the 2nd CD of the soundtrack that was well placed.) I love the way the beginning of the movie is mostly songs, and I want to see this as a full-blown Broadway musical with way more singing.

 

The moment when Elsa takes down her hair may be the single most powerful moment in any Disney movie. The only thing I can think of to compare to it is when Mulan climbs the pole. And It's very interesting to contrast the two: Mulan is proving she's a "man." Elsa is showing she's a woman, her own woman, and not a princess at all. She is a queen.

 

The question of whether she's gay, who knows? But if Olaf is her subconscious, he gives some evidence that Elsa doesn't care about men. Before he sings about summer, he looks at Kristoff and says "Who's the weird-looking donkey?" or whatever it is that he says. If this is not purely meant for humor—and since nearly everything Olaf does has a greater meaning, it may not be—it indicates Elsa doesn't pay much attention to men at this point in her life. I'm not convinced on this, but it's something to think about.

 

I do love Tangled for its portrayal of a severely emotionally abused person. Tangled barely has any missteps at all for what it is, and Maximus may be the best animal ever on screen. But I feel like Tangled was pretty much all on the surface, and Frozen is deeper and more complex (I've been thinking about it and reevaluating it for days after seeing it, whereas my judgment of Tangled is still exactly what it was when I walked out of the theater). Frozen also turns so many tropes on their head, while Tangled doesn't really, and I appreciate the trope-turning (and no one dies at the end!).

 

I also have a much more powerful and visceral emotional reaction to Frozen, and my emotional response is what I value most in a movie or book.

Edited January 30, 2014 by PeterAhlstrom

[bartbug]

If Frozen had been made before Tangled, I would have appreciated it much more than I did. As it is, I feel like it was mostly a conglomeration of Tangled and Wicked, taking the excellent parts of both. Now don't get me wrong; I loved it. It just doesn't get any points for originality.

[Aether]

I enjoyed it, but I found the resolution, as well as

the evil prince

, to be rather cheap. But yeah, Tangled is just far superior.

 

It might be Disney's most aesthetically beautiful film as of yet, though.

[PeterAhlstrom]

The truth about Hans is hinted at right from the beginning, and the resolution is perfect. There are certainly some places where it's trying to be like Tangled (Sven tries to be Maximus; also, the art style of Tangled was inspired by the Rococo painting The Swing—a version of which appears in Anna's paintings-poses scenes). (And as far as aesthetically beautiful, occasionally the snow is just not animated like snow.) But I've already given my reasons why Frozen is superior to Tangled.

[Aether]

The truth about Hans is hinted at right from the beginning, and the resolution is perfect. There are certainly some places where it's trying to be like Tangled (Sven tries to be Maximus; also, the art style of Tangled was inspired by the Rococo painting The Swing—a version of which appears in Anna's paintings-poses scenes). (And as far as aesthetically beautiful, occasionally the snow is just not animated like snow.) But I've already given my reasons why Frozen is superior to Tangled.

I somehow managed to read bartbugs post as the first post of this Thread and was answering to that one without having read any of the previous posts. Now that I've noticed and read them, I must admit that your thoughts make me see the film in an entirely new light. I shall try to see it again this week-end to give it a second chance. I'll get back to you on my thoughts then.

[PeterAhlstrom]

I do have to admit that this movie has an element of sentimental melodrama that just gets me every time. The tween mermaid movie Aquamarine had the same ending as Frozen, and I loved it there too.

 

Also I think Hans is a bit more complex than comes off onscreen—up until the scene by the fireplace, he is actually trying to play the role; he wants her to like him, and he wants the citizens to like him, so he's being a pretty nice guy. But once he realizes that saving Anna would require him to really be in love with her, he drops the act and decides to salvage what he can from the operation, going a bit over the top in the other direction because he feels the whole thing falling apart around him.

 

I can totally accept lots of people liking Tangled better. But I don't see the complexity or depth there. That doesn't mean Frozen is automatically better—complexity for complexity's sake leads to things like the TV show Lost—but it means that I can appreciate Frozen on more levels than I do Tangled, which, at the time, was certainly the best Disney movie I had seen in years. So much better than the Princess and the Frog, for goodness' sake. And don't get me started on Home on the Range; what an execrable travesty.

Edited January 31, 2014 by PeterAhlstrom

[Aether]

I can totally accept lots of people liking Tangled better. But I don't see the complexity or depth there. That doesn't mean Frozen is automatically better—complexity for complexity's sake leads to things like the TV show Lost—but it means that I can appreciate Frozen on more levels than I do Tangled, which, at the time, was certainly the best Disney movie I had seen in years.

I do agree that Tangled isn't really Disney's hitherto most profound film. I believe you'd have to go to older Disney epics for that (looking at you, Lion King). It is, on the other hand, arguably as close to spotless as Disney has ever been. (At least apart from that stupid "and after years, and years of asking, I finally said yes" thing at the very end, which felt a lot like a last minute addition to an otherwise surprisingly mature film to avoid any sort of controversy. Disney seems to view itself almost as America's moral compass, and in my opinion, this - along with their side-kick obsession - has put a huge hamper on their ability to keep up with Pixar (looking at you, Mulan). I guess they solved that problem by just buying them up, though.)

 

The circumstances of my first view of Frozen did not really prompt me to take any deeper look into it. But considering your rather profound and interesting take on it, I want to give it another, this time closer, look.

[FeatherWriter]

I was dragged into loving Frozen after Lisa made a write up of it with Renarin in Elsa's role and Adolin in Elsa's role. I hadn't even seen the movie yet and I fell for it hard. In fact, I was almost expecting Anna to manifest her own ice powers by the end. And I find it very difficult to not like Hans because he's sideburns!Elend to me and that is intolerably distressing.

 

I agree with just about everything you've been saying about Olaf, Peter. I feel like it would have been a stronger movie without him or if his personality and role had been different. He just bugged me mostly and I felt like he got in the way of the rest of the characters, who were played more seriously. Even while they were being humorous, they were funnier and more engaging than Olaf, who I found to be more goofy and silly than actually funny.

 

Definitely needed more songs, especially on the back end. "Let It Go" is fantastic and I would have killed for another major song for Elsa where Idina Menzel could have just really shone. A large cast-ensemble song at the very end with major parts going to Elsa and Anna? A chance for Kristoff to sing something other than "Reindeers Are Better Than People"? I saw someone suggesting a dark reprise of "Love Is An Open Door" with Hans as a villian song, because his "love" for her is his open door to the throne? The end really just needed another song.

[Aether]

And I find it very difficult to not like Hans because he's sideburns!Elend to me and that is intolerably distressing.

So that's where that comes from. I've seen some references to sideburns!Elend in other Threads and was utterly confused by it.

[FeatherWriter]

Yeah... I'm pretty sure I'm the person who coined that term. BUT HE IS THOUGH.

 

Come on. White uniform and everything. UGH. HANS. STOP IT PLEASE.

[Aether]

Yeah... I'm pretty sure I'm the person who coined that term. BUT HE IS THOUGH.

 

Come on. White uniform and everything. UGH. HANS. STOP IT PLEASE.

I do see it! His uniform should be slightly more grey, though.

 

EDIT: Forgot my usual colour editing.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Aether

[Quiver]

Too many musical numbers? Ha, I think it has too few. The last song we get is the troll song, and I could have used at least one more song later. (There's a concept reprise on the 2nd CD of the soundtrack that was well placed.) I love the way the beginning of the movie is mostly songs, and I want to see this as a full-blown Broadway musical with way more singing.

 

 

I think my problem is that it isn't balanced when it comes to the music. The songs of the film are so front-loaded, and the second half so barren that it sort of made me think there were more than there were.

 

Now, for the record, I enjoyed the song's of Frozen. "Let it go" is a pop cultural phenomenon at this point. I just thought the first half of the film broke into song too often, especially since the back half... didn't.

 

By the way, did anyone else get a "Look down" vibe from the opening song? I happened to see the 2013 Les Miserablés film before I saw Frozen, and the opening scene, of men engaged in manual labour in a song that sounded more like a marching chant felt very familiar.

[Natans]

I watched this movie yesterday and a really liked that they put aside the old trope of "prince save princesess" and created  a history about fraternal love. 

 

And they messed up with some tropes like marrying with the first dude you find. 

 

 

Side note and i really like this sequence =)

 

 

 

Let it go, let it go!

Edited January 31, 2014 by Natans

[PeterAhlstrom]

I agree with just about everything you've been saying about Olaf, Peter. I feel like it would have been a stronger movie without him or if his personality and role had been different. He just bugged me mostly and I felt like he got in the way of the rest of the characters, who were played more seriously. Even while they were being humorous, they were funnier and more engaging than Olaf, who I found to be more goofy and silly than actually funny.

Maybe it was tl;dr, but my view of Olaf changed drastically the more I thought about it. My January 23 and 30 additions go into this with the most depth.

 

(QUIVER WROTE THIS BUT MY QUOTING FAILS)

I think my problem is that it isn't balanced when it comes to the music. The songs of the film are so front-loaded, and the second half so barren that it sort of made me think there were more than there were.

 

Now, for the record, I enjoyed the song's of Frozen. "Let it go" is a pop cultural phenomenon at this point. I just thought the first half of the film broke into song too often, especially since the back half... didn't.

 

By the way, did anyone else get a "Look down" vibe from the opening song? I happened to see the 2013 Les Miserablés film before I saw Frozen, and the opening scene, of men engaged in manual labour in a song that sounded more like a marching chant felt very familiar.

Disney has done these things before. It's been a long time since I saw Hunchback, but I remember the opening montage to be very long and just amazing, musically. Maybe I'm remembering wrong but in Tangled it seems the only major singing in the second half was the "see the light" song. Also in Pocahontas the opening number was very much the "Broadway chorus" opening like Frozen and Les Mis.

 

I do think the music was a bit unbalanced, but I can also see that they may have felt that more music would have been distracting in the more intense later scenes. This would not be acceptable in a Broadway musical, but I think it's OK in this type of movie.

Edited January 31, 2014 by PeterAhlstrom

[FeatherWriter]

Maybe it was tl;dr, but my view of Olaf changed drastically the more I thought about it. My January 23 and 30 additions go into this with the most depth.

Yes, I read, and I can see a lot of what you're saying about Olaf as an extension of Elsa's subconscious, but I tend to still think there was something about the execution of his part in the narrative that just didn't click. There was just something lacking there for me...

[PeterAhlstrom]

I'm still not perfectly happy with Olaf, but now I feel he adds more to the movie than he takes away. He is admittedly great for the little kids, and the added depth of meaning that I've found in the movie mostly comes from reanalyzing Olaf in a way that I'm convinced is entirely intended by the filmmakers. So, on the surface he doesn't work for me—but I think his surface is meant just for the kids. His depth works for me and that's almost enough to counteract my surface impression. And he's way less annoying than Eddie Murphy.

[Claincy]

I just watched it today.

 

I'm neutral on Olaf, though your observations have swung me more in his favour Peter.

 

I would have liked it if there were a couple of songs later on, act 1 of the movie felt incredibly emotionally charged but the later part of the film, while still very good, simply didn't have the impact the earlier part did. For me personally more songs would have helped, though I know that wouldn't be the case for everyone.

 

I, like many others it seems, was hit very hard by "Let it go.". To be clear, I honestly cannot remember the last time I cried, at all, in any movie. But that sequence got me.

 

Couldn’t keep it in, heaven knows I tried

Don’t let them in, don’t let them see
Be the good girl you always have to be
Conceal, don’t feel, don’t let them know
Well, now they know

Let it go, let it go

I spent I don't know how many years practicing hiding my emotions, but that cut right through. (Partially for that very reason I expect).

[PeterAhlstrom]

I cry in movies all the time, but that did it it for me too. So did "Do You Want to Build a Snowman," and so did the end. Even though I saw what Anna would do coming from a mile away, for me it was done perfectly.

[Claincy]

I don't cry in movies, ever. Well, till now *shrug*

"Do you want to build a snowman" nearly did it for me too though.

 

I agree that the ending was perfect though It didn't have as strong an effect on me. Maybe part of it is that music can really effect me, and the later half of the movie lacked that. The songs in the opening section were fantastic, but past Anna meeting Elsa at her palace the only song in the entire rest of the movie was the troll's song. Which was good/fun, but not as good. (It is possible that I am forgetting a song.)

 

Thankyou for your analysis of Olaf etc. I hadn't noticed a lot of that and it really adds to the film

Edited February 3, 2014 by lord Claincy Ffnord

[PeterAhlstrom]

The troll song also helps explain the end. "People make bad choices if they're mad, or scared, or stressed, but throw a little love their way and you'll bring out their best."

[Claincy]

True, though it didn't have the emotional impact of "Do you want to build a snowman" or "Let it go". I'm glad it was there, I just would have liked more

[Shardlet]

There is much I like about frozen, much of which has already been discussed (the music, the trope turning, the underlying message). But, there are several things I did not like.  Remembering that the primary target audience for the movie is 6-12 year old girls (roughly), I thought Hans transition was startlingly abrupt, particularly in view of the strength of connection between Hans and Anna originally depicted.  That said, my daughters did not mention it, so...?  I also did not care for the Trolls, they felt much more non-sequitur to me than Olaf.  Olaf's place was clear to me since he was clearly the snowman that Anna  and Elsa created in the opening scene (particularly in conjunction with "Do you want to build a snowman?").  But, I did not see much contribution by the Trolls being trolls and being the way they were.

 

I still like Tangled better because the music was/is also excellent and the movie is overall more visually beautiful (to my eye at least).  The most powerful scene in each movie, I would say, for Tangled: the lamp scene, for Frozen: Do you want to build a snowman (though, let it go was also great).  

 

Anyways, Tangled gelled for me more than Frozen.  But my daughters loved both.  In fact my 4 year-old was a fanatic about Tangled and her first comment upon exiting the theater from seeing Frozen was "Daddy, we need to pay this" which translated means that we need to buy this movie.  Kid tested, father approved.