Parshendi Genocide

[Shardlet]

Here is a loaded question.  By asking this question, I absolutely am not referring in any way, shape, or form to real life or advocating or defending any real life actions of genocide.  The context for this question is purely totally within the world of Roshar (or perhaps any fantasy world where such a situation may present itself).

 

In any case, as I read through this thread, a number of us reacted strongly to the idea of a genocide of the Parshendi Parshmen.  So, assuming that the Parshendi are exactly what Jasnah believes them to be, namely a race of people who at a moments notice are suddenly turned into an implacably hostile force that can be unified in thought and action and seeks to destroy everyone, would it be in any way wrong for the Alethi to seek their extermination as a preventative or mitigating measure?

 

Given that framework, I don't think it is wrong.  I think the Alethi, and the rest of Roshar, have an absolute right to protect themselves.

 

Now, stepping slightly outside of that framework, but still remaining firmly on Roshar, let's consider the chance that Jasnah is wrong.  Then the hand-wringing begins.  How certain are they of the information? How much of a confirmation do they need before they act?

 

Edit: Many of my responses to your comments in this thread will be me largely playing devil's advocate.  I am not necessarily pulling for slaughter of the Parshendi.  (In fact, I think Jasnah is missing some crucial data).

Edited January 24, 2014 by Shardlet

[Aleksiel]

Well, to be fair Alethi have already started some sort of genocide considering the war. So, I presume you mean the Parshmen?

 

Anyway, they need solid prove that Parshendi/Parshmen are Voidbringers, not just something in children's bedstories. Even if they have the potential of becoming Voidbringers, that is still not a reason to start a genocide, Jasnah can find what triggers such transformation and simply deal with that. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there hasn't been a Desolation ever since the Heralds forsake their Oathpact and Parshmen have been a peaceful part of the society for centuries. No reason to start slaughtering them now.

[Natans]

Without know all the facts hard to say. If this by some way can be prevented, kill first ask question later seems to me like jump the gun for fear.

 

If the parshendi survived until know and aren't killed in the previous desolation this must indicate that there are a way to prevent the genocide.

 

If don't, self defense war are the only kind of war that I believe, sothis would be kill or be killed and one must protect himself and his family.

[11thorderknight]

Not that this really answers the question, but I'm sure there will be a MAJOR wrinkle to the story - Jasnah is probably not wrong, but she's definitely not completely right.

[Shardlet]

Well, to be fair Alethi have already started some sort of genocide considering the war. So, I presume you mean the Parshmen?

 

Anyway, they need solid prove that Parshendi/Parshmen are Voidbringers, not just something in children's bedstories. Even if they have the potential of becoming Voidbringers, that is still not a reason to start a genocide, Jasnah can find what triggers such transformation and simply deal with that. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there hasn't been a Desolation ever since the Heralds forsake their Oathpact and Parshmen have been a peaceful part of the society for centuries. No reason to start slaughtering them now.

 

Well, the Parshendi and Parshmen are the same race.  The only difference is that the Parshmen are not currently occupying one of the Parshendi "forms" (presumably attained via a spren bond).

 

Jasnah's information does not come from bedtime stories.  It seems that Jasnah believes very strongly that time is of the absolute essence.  Further, the writing on the wall leaves just about a month before something apparently hits the fan.  Has the time for further research expired?  At some point in time, a decision must be made.

 

Edit: Many of my responses to comments in this thread will be me largely playing devil's advocate.  I am not necessarily pulling for slaughter of the Parshendi.  (In fact, I think Jasnah is missing some crucial data).

Edited January 23, 2014 by Shardlet

[The Count]

Even if they can prove absolutely conclusively that the Parshman could flip any moment, it would still not be justified in my opinion.

I do not believe it is ever justified to punish anyone for things they have not done.

Interestingly, I think this will be explored in the books. I can well see Jasnah's campaigning strongly for Shen to be removed from Dalinars new bodyguard.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Crysanja]

ok lets assume some or all parshendi will turn to monsters.

 

they will have done this every desolation before, and ppl knew it.

 

 

the question now would be why didnt the humans eradicate the parshendi before?

so there must be a reason to keep them around, and i dont think its just the slave-labor.

 

 

maybe parshendi are just a soft target for thouse "wrong" spren - and maybe - just maybe its better

if they turn a parshendi, then create a thunderclast or something like it =)

 

 

i mean, better fight something out of flesh and blood, which cann be cut to pices, instead of a rock.

[Aleksiel]

Well, the Parshendi and Parshmen are the same race.  The only difference is that the Parshmen are not currently occupying one of the Parshendi "forms" (presumably attained via a spren bond).

 

Jasnah's information does not come from bedtime stories.  It seems that Jasnah believes very strongly that time is of the absolute essence.  Further, the writing on the wall leaves just about a month before something apparently hits the fan.  Has the time for further research expired?  At some point in time, a decision must be made.

 

Edit: Many of my responses to comments in this thread will be me largely playing devil's advocate.  I am not necessarily pulling for slaughter of the Parshendi.  (In fact, I think Jasnah is missing some crucial data).

 

Jasnah based her conclusion on folklore and very old writings that can't be reliable sources (language and phrasing so different than today's that can mislead the reader etc). In my opinion she doesn't have enough prove, only suspicions. Why should they make such decision as to start a genocide? Why do you think Parshmen/Parshendi are about to turn into Voidbringers, what has changed? We've seen from Ehonai's chapters that Parshendi aren't unreasonable monsters.

 

Perhaps, as I said, something changes them and this is what must be stopped. Otherwise you can claim that we should start killing people just because they have the potential of becoming murderers.

[Colby Jack]

Genocide may be a distasteful idea, but honestly, in a battle of us versus them, it will always be us. Our own ancestors have done much worse for far less reason.

I'll ignore any parallels that involved man and man for obvious reasons, but if you would accept an animal example, then we don't need to look any further than the extinction of the wolf population in the British Isles. Wolves threatened our sheeps, we wiped them out. If the Parshmen or the Parsendi threatens to drive humanity to extinction, I don't have a problem if mankind choose to use genocide.

If Jasnah is completely right, and Parshmen/Parsendi are the true and only voidbringers, then mankind should definitely wipe them out. After all, how many Desolations have there been? How many people have died so far? How much have those Desolations set mankind back and keep them in a state of stagnation? At least three thousand years have passed, and they're still in the Middle Ages.

Destroy the Parshmen/Parsendi and you rob Odium of an extremely valuable tool, as well as potentially saving millions of lives in the next few Desolations or force him to invest MORE of his powers to create other creatures to replace them. It sure ain't moral, but I feel that it's right thing to do.

But, I'll have to take into the equation that the ancients who won the last few Desolations have also took in this logic and discarded the idea for a very good reason, like if mankind gave into their hate, Odium will win or something.

Also, Jasnah is hardly infallible. She is so cynical that she refuse to even entertain the idea of a God and tried to pass off Cultivation and Honor as sprens. She could just as easily be wrong in this forum too.

[+eveorjoy]

I think Jasnah is missing some important information. In fact, if the choice was between humans and parshendi, I'd be on parshendi's side. (Here me out, though I admit this is wild speculation and if I am wrong I am not surprised.)

 

I don't think the humans are from Roshar. Their myth talks about them being kicked out of "heaven" and being banished to Roshar. What if the humans and Tanavast were from another planet and chased to Roshar by Odium? What if Cultivation was the original and only God of Roshar? What if Tanavast came to her and said, please make room for my humans on your planet, we have lost our home? And Cultivation allowed it because she liked Tanavast. He was an honorable God after all.

 

Why do I think the humans are not from Roshar? Because they are nothing like any other species on that planet, except in Shenovar, but that is one small corner of the Roshar. That might be where the original humans settled.The Parshendi can go out in a Highstorm without any problems. They are shelled beings just like many other species on that planet. I contest that they are the original natives of Roshar and the humans are at best invited colonists and at worst invaders.

 

I think something happened to the Parshmen that made them into slaves. Maybe Odium did something to them, I don't know. I think if they were Parshendi they would be reasonable people. I think killing the Parshmen would be wrong and if the humans want to commit that genocide then back to Damnation with them all, because it maybe where they came from in the first place.

[Shardlet]

Even if they can prove absolutely conclusively that the Parshman could flip any moment, it would still not be justified in my opinion.

I do not believe it is ever justified to punish anyone for things they have not done.

 

Such an action would not be conducted as a punishment, but as a defense.

 

ok lets assume some or all parshendi will turn to monsters.

 

they will have done this every desolation before, and ppl knew it.

 

 

the question now would be why didnt the humans eradicate the parshendi before?

so there must be a reason to keep them around, and i dont think its just the slave-labor.

 

 

maybe parshendi are just a soft target for thouse "wrong" spren - and maybe - just maybe its better

if they turn a parshendi, then create a thunderclast or something like it =)

 

 

i mean, better fight something out of flesh and blood, which cann be cut to pices, instead of a rock.

 

But, if the most reliable information you have points to the conclusion that the Parsh will turn en masse on a dime and become hell-bent on your destruction...?

 

Jasnah based her conclusion on folklore and very old writings that can't be reliable sources (language and phrasing so different than today's that can mislead the reader etc). In my opinion she doesn't have enough prove, only suspicions. Why should they make such decision as to start a genocide? Why do you think Parshmen/Parshendi are about to turn into Voidbringers, what has changed? We've seen from Ehonai's chapters that Parshendi aren't unreasonable monsters.

 

Perhaps, as I said, something changes them and this is what must be stopped. Otherwise you can claim that we should start killing people just because they have the potential of becoming murderers.

 

Jasnah, as a veristitalian, works diligently to filter fact from folklore.  I see no indication that should would take a writing at face value and act in such a way on it.  She clearly has more information than we are currently aware of.  Jasnah's information indicates that that is precisely what the Parsh will do and her information has caused her to very strongly believe that she has virtually no time to do what needs to be done.

 

Whether the Parsh are unthinking monsters or not is irrelevant.  What is relevant is the information that indicates that they will become such, apparently soon.  

 

If she was to find out the next morning that Odium was the means by which the Parsh would be taken over and that it would be his will that they were carrying out, how would Jasnah seek to stop Odium?  Even if she similarly found out that a spren bond was the impetus for the takeover, how would she go about preventing the bond from occuring?

 

According to Jasnah's information,  they do not have the potential to become such, they will become such, soon.

 

I don't think the humans are from Roshar. Their myth talks about them being kicked out of "heaven" and being banished to Roshar. What if the humans and Tanavast were from another planet and chased to Roshar by Odium? What if Cultivation was the original and only God of Roshar? What if Tanavast came to her and said, please make room for my humans on your planet, we have lost our home? And Cultivation allowed it because she liked Tanavast. He was an honorable God after all.

 

I also suspect that humans are not native to Roshar (I would include the Shin in this).  But, we have WoB that indicates that Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar together. 

Edited January 23, 2014 by Shardlet

[Aleksiel]

Don't you think if it was as simple as No Parshguys=No Desolation, it would have been done already? That KR/Heralds would have just slaughtered them and be done with the issue? We, unlike Jasnah, know that there was indeed an Almighty. She can be wrong again.

 

Don't disregard the fact that hasn't been a Desolation in 4500 years, ever since the Heralds and KR left. 

[bartbug]

I think genocide is a little extreme, at least at first. But this is a world where you could, with (relative) ease, create massive, if bland, structures in an instant. I'm all for imprisoning the Parshendi with a gun trained on their head in case our walls can't contain the storm form. Yes, genocide is distasteful, and there are ideas that may circumvent it's need, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[Colby Jack]

It's been done in another franchise. The Orcs are now overrunning Kalimdor. Unless the Parshmen and the Parsendi could break free from Odium, I wouldn't recommend it.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Colby Jack

[Aleksiel]

 the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

This is so not Knight Radiant 

[Shardlet]

Don't you think if it was as simple as No Parshguys=No Desolation, it would have been done already? That KR/Heralds would have just slaughtered them and be done with the issue? We, unlike Jasnah, know that there was indeed an Almighty. She can be wrong again.

 

Don't disregard the fact that hasn't been a Desolation in 4500 years, ever since the Heralds and KR left. 

 

 

I don't doubt that destruction of the Parsh would not result in prevention of the desolation.  But, I am reminded of the Doctor Who episode, 'Army of Ghosts' where the Cybermen appeared essentially everywhere across the globe.  There was no subsequent conquest or invasion.  Their disseminated presence across the globe was an invasion fait accompli.  Similarly the Parshmen are present throughout all of Alethkar and likely many other places as well.  For the Parsh to instantly turn, as Jasnah believes that they will, the results would be beyond devastating.

 

There are a variety of ways that Parsh could have survived the last desolation without being exterminated.  Three of which are 1) the people were told the desolations were over.  There are some Parsh that are left.  They are captured and enslaved.  After all, no more desolations means no more murderous Parsh.  They were forced to help rebuild and were never released.  Or, 2) after the end of the previous desolation a group of Parsh escaped into the wilderness.  Some of these were later enslaved and others remained free.  Or 3) Odium held a pocket of Parsh back and hidden such that they, in their usefulness, were preserved for the Everstorm.  Odium used his influence to get humans to integrate the Parsh among them as slaves, thus posturing them for a devastating surprise assault.  Odium worked to suppress and obscure information about the useful nature of the Parsh to facilitate this plan.

 

 

 

I think genocide is a little extreme, at least at first. But this is a world where you could, with (relative) ease, create massive, if bland, structures in an instant. I'm all for imprisoning the Parshendi with a gun trained on their head in case our walls can't contain the storm form. Yes, genocide is distasteful, and there are ideas that may circumvent it's need, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

Ah, the move from genocide to internment camps...

[dyring]

Genocide no, but it might be wise to not have parshmen spread all around in position where they can kill large amounts of undefended if they do turn.

 

The Parshendi do what their told. Just send most to live in Natanatan wich seem to be mostly abandoned. Once their not spread amongst the human population, the effect of a turn wont be as bad, and efforts can be taken to stop it.

 

And Eshonai... well perhaps, she should try to talk to the Alethi? worth a try, the last time the Parshendi did, the Alethi made treaty with them and offered them friendship. Might be worth testing if they can make good and stop all the killing yes? Whatever she thinks of herself, Eshonai IS a monster. She is the only one with any chance to initiate peace between the Alethi and the Parshendi at this time, and have been.

 

Also, if it is the Parshendi who will turn.... then why kill Gavilar? How could killing this one human stop themselves from turning bad?

 

Unless Gavilar was turning into a Radiant and they thought they could stop any radiants from coming by killing him, but its kinda stupid. Killing the enemy of my enemy to stop my enemy... well, you hear, its really daft.

 

Something else is going on.

[+eveorjoy]

I also suspect that humans are not native to Roshar (I would include the Shin in this).  But, we have WoB that indicates that Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar together. 

 

Maybe, but the humans just don't fit with the rest of the planet. I have a feeling this issue will not be answered until book ten.

 

Don't you think if it was as simple as No Parshguys=No Desolation, it would have been done already? That KR/Heralds would have just slaughtered them and be done with the issue? We, unlike Jasnah, know that there was indeed an Almighty. She can be wrong again.

 

Don't disregard the fact that hasn't been a Desolation in 4500 years, ever since the Heralds and KR left. 

 

In fact we know from Dalinar's visions other things besides Parshendi attacked during Desolutions. So it will come whether Genocide is committed or not.

[Colby Jack]

Ah, the move from genocide to internment camps...

It's the lesser evil of the two options, a half-measure that'll never solve anything.

[Crysanja]

just think about it, if the parshendi all turn to monsters, they did it before.

you think there wouldnt been a culcture of turturing/hunting/genocide all parshendi after a desolation for centuries?

i mean its not like there are lots and lots of ppl without losses to them.

 

so looking back at this historty of parshendi slaughtering a huge % of the human population again and again.

they must have had very very good reasons not to commit genocide.

 

there were lots and lots of ppl which lost all familiy members, children wifes

thouse ppl did not commit genocide - the parshendi are still on this world.

 

 

so i dont know thouse very good reasons not to kill them, but they must be there, so no they shouldnt be killed.

but ppl would kill them regardless if they knew.

[Shardlet]

Genocide no, but it might be wise to not have parshmen spread all around in position where they can kill large amounts of undefended if they do turn.

 

The Parshendi do what their told. Just send most to live in Natanatan wich seem to be mostly abandoned. Once their not spread amongst the human population, the effect of a turn wont be as bad, and efforts can be taken to stop it.

 

 

Sending the Parshmen to the Parshendi would be the best option in my personal opinion.  Simply sending them out into the wilds of Natanatan would be tantamount to extermination anyway.  By all appearances, the Parshmen would have a difficult time surviving.  At least by sending them to the Parshendi, they can be cared for.  (From the perspective of the Alethi that is.  They would, in actuality, likely be given a form so that they could have better access to their individuality and make a more meaningful contribution to Parshendi society).

 

 

 

so i dont know thouse very good reasons not to kill them, but they must be there, so no they shouldnt be killed.

but ppl would kill them regardless if they knew.

 

Would you be willing to stake your life and the lives of those you love on that?  It may sound like an unfair thing to ask.  But, it is essentially what you are asking Jasnah and the Rosharans at large to do.

 

 

Edit: Again, I am asking questions and making comments that I think need to be answered and thought about for the benefit of this discussion.  I think everybody's thoughts have been great so far.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Shardlet

[Aleksiel]

@Shardlet: But what has changed now that wasn't in any of the previous 4500 years? I mean other then the fact there are no more KR or Heralds, which can easily lead to the conclusion they were somehow responsible for the Desolations, and Alethi should genocide surgebinders instead.

 

Also, that black sphere Gavilar gave Szeth is very suspicous to me. Weren't there any confirmation that spheres can hold spren? If they can, it could have been some voidspren or something Voidbringer related. After all, we know that Parshendi are trying to prevent their gods (widely believed this refers to Voidbringers) from returning and this means Parsh are anti-Voidbringers as well. Again, if Parsh are somehow changed by an outside force into Vidbringers, it's the said outside force that's the real problem and the issue that should be dealt with.

 

Edit: I don't see sending them away as an option. Then they would just turn into Voidbringers (assuming that's what will happen to them) and still seek to destroy others. This doesn't solve the problem. 

Edited January 23, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Shardlet]

@Shardlet: But what has changed now that wasn't in any of the previous 4500 years? I mean other then the fact there are no more KR or Heralds, which can easily lead to the conclusion they were somehow responsible for the Desolations, and Alethi should genocide surgebinders instead.

 

Also, that black sphere Gavilar gave Szeth is very suspicous to me. Weren't there any confirmation that spheres can hold spren? If they can, it could have been some voidspren or something Voidbringer related. After all, we know that Parshendi are trying to prevent their gods (widely believed this refers to Voidbringers) from returning and this means Parsh are anti-Voidbringers as well. Again, if Parsh are somehow changed by an outside force into Vidbringers, it's the said outside force that's the real problem and the issue that should be dealt with.

 

Again, Jasnah obviously believes that time is very short.  She has had the longest time being bonded to a spren of anyone we know about so far.  So, arguably she has a presumably reliable source for additional information.  Surgebinding is returning to the world.  The spren are beginning to lay down hurt feelings for some funky crap that they perceive is going down.  Jasnah's info says that seriously bad times are at hand.

 

As to spheres and spren, gemstones can trap spren.  But they need to be cut and selected appropriately for that.  I would suspect that coinage spheres are unsuitable to this task.  I think that the dark sphere that Gavilar had is not a coinage sphere.

 

As to dealing with the outside force, does she have any idea of how such a force could be dealt with directly in order to prevent the Parsh/Voidbringer change?  It doesn't seem to be the case, or she would likely be working that angle as well. 

[Moogle]

This thread is a landmine. I get the feeling there's going to be a lot of essay posts coming out from me. Oh well. Please note that, like Shardlet, I in no way advocate for real life genocide. I won't claim to be taking the position of devil's advocate, however.

 

In brief, if the Parshendi are defenseless against Odium's possession, as are parshmen worldwide, then killing them is the only rational course of action for people concerned about preventing as much death as possible.

 

Is this sad? Yes. It's disgusting, it's horrible, and it's unsavory. To suggest otherwise, however, is to invite massive amounts of death, more than the number of parshmen out there. A million people or a hundred thousand parshmen? The choice is obvious.

 

The Voidbringers cannot be caged. Interment camps won't work. Sticking all the Parshmen on a gigantic boat won't work because of highstorms. If Urithiru was found, and they could stick them all in there... well, they'd probably starve to death, though I reserve judgement on this idea until we know if Urithiru has easy access to Stormlight. Killing them is the least painful option of all the options I know of currently. If others arise through research, then by all means those can be implemented.

 

If the Radiants knew that the parshmen were Voidbringers and didn't kill them because of their philosophy, they are the biggest mass murderers of the entire Cosmere, unless there's other people out there responsible for millions (if not billions) dying.

 

The fact that non-Radiants didn't kill all the parshmen, though, suggests that they are not the Voidbringers. So I think the idea that the Parshendi quite simply cannot help but be corrupted by Odium unlikely.

 

The decision, then, is at what point you decide that the Parshendi have to go.

 

The answer to this one is that you gather all possible information in the next 62 (or less) days, assign a probability that the Voidbringers will come from the Parshendi despite anything anyone does, and multiply it by the number of people alive on Roshar. See if that number is higher than the number of parshmen you'd have to kill plus the number of lives that will be lost by uprooting to the entire economic system of Roshar, which is based on slaves. If the number is higher, you murder the Parshendi.

 

Unless, of course, you find an option that lets the Parshendi resist. Then you have to calculate the number of lives saved times the probability that the defense against Odium will work, and again you pick the course with the highest number of expected lives saved.

 

Or you have to consider that Honor is a Shard on Roshar, and figure out what the probability is that you'll get some superpowered help from the spren if you act in a deontological manner and refuse to kill the Parshendi based on some sort of belief in the categorical imperative. Calculate the same way, though I haven't the faintest clue where to start with calculating such a thing. Syl would be the one to ask.

 

To suggest anything other than this course of action means you're not interested in saving the most amount of lives. Which is fine, there's other systems of belief, it's just important to note what the math says about saving the most people possible.

 

There's also the issue of plot-armor and the demand for a good story, of course, but I think determining the correct decision of what to do with the Parshendi should be thought of as a real-world exercise and we shouldn't rely on the characters figuring out they are in a story so they can best determine what tropes they can use to save as many people as possible.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Why not seek a way to prevent Odium from possessing them? If they just slaughter the Parshendi, what stops Odium from finding another way to bring Desolation? They should find a cure for the cause, not the symptoms.