Parshendi Genocide

[Numb]

Wait what are you saying Gavilar wasn't trying to bring about the desolations and thus destroy the freedom the Parshendi had given everythign to achieve? In no way were the humans "willing" to talk and negotiate in the current time aside from when Dalinar wanted to. The second negotiation only broke down because the Parshendi were bretrayed themselves and already taken over by the malignant force the humans brought to the planet.

 

I'm all for arguing that you can't ignore decisions but you also can't completely change the context of those decisions just to further your argument. Assassinating Gavilar was the only choice they had at the time which they thought was enough to stop the next desolations from coming. We know it wasn't enough but saying that he was willing to talk is just plain wrong. I can only imagine the horror that would have happened if Gavilar didn't get assassinated and proceeded to bring back odium/unmade before any of the radiants that we have were around. At the time Dalinar wasn't the man he is today and Jasnah was the only one close to forming a proper bond(Aside from Shallan who repressed everything). Not to mention there would be a whole host more parshendi due to most of them not being killed yet by the war. If anything it seems that killing Gavilar saved more Alethi lives than it killed.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Numb

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Wait what are you saying Gavilar wasn't trying to bring about the desolations and thus destroy the freedom the Parshendi had given everythign to achieve? In no way were the humans "willing" to talk and negotiate in the current time aside from when Dalinar wanted to. The second negotiation only broke down because the Parshendi were bretrayed themselves and already taken over by the malignant force the humans brought to the planet.

 

I'm all for arguing that you can't ignore decisions but you also can't completely change the context of those decisions just to further your argument. Assassinating Gavilar was the only choice they had at the time which they thought was enough to stop the next desolations from coming. We know it wasn't enough but saying that he was willing to talk is just plain wrong. I can only imagine the horror that would have happened if Gavilar didn't get assassinated and proceeded to bring back odium/unmade before any of the radiants that we have were around. At the time Dalinar wasn't the man he is today and Jasnah was the only one close to forming a proper bond(Aside from Shallan who repressed everything). Not to mention there would be a whole host more parshendi due to most of them not being killed yet by the war. If anything it seems that killing Gavilar saved more Alethi lives than it killed.

You presume nearly everything you just stated. 

We have other characters suggesting that Gavilar was trying to do X, but no indication that he really knew what he was doing. If he knew that doing X would bring back the Knights Radiant but didn't know the cost, he's not some evil tyrant that wouldn't listen to reason. Which brings us to another point.

We have evidence suggesting Gavilar was never approached by the Parshendii to dissuade him from doing whatever it was - he mentions several people who might have reason to kill him and cannot imagine why anyone else would. We also know that when the Parshendii were confronted on why they did it, they STILL wouldn't explain. So with reasons of their own, without trying to peaceably argue against Gavilar's course of action, they had him killed on the same day they made a peace treaty with him. That's assassination at its purest. 

The Parshendii (minus Eshonai to a degree) knowingly accepted a form for its ability to destroy with every intention of harming humans. All except a few who fled. It was Eshonai and Eshonai's sister who were responsible for all that destruction (which stems from them misleading the rest of the Parshendii). It wasn't a human decision. The humans were trying to come to an agreement. 

Provide evidence next time you say I'm wrong. 

[Aleksiel]

Wait what are you saying Gavilar wasn't trying to bring about the desolations and thus destroy the freedom the Parshendi had given everythign to achieve? In no way were the humans "willing" to talk and negotiate in the current time aside from when Dalinar wanted to. The second negotiation only broke down because the Parshendi were bretrayed themselves and already taken over by the malignant force the humans brought to the planet.

 

I'm all for arguing that you can't ignore decisions but you also can't completely change the context of those decisions just to further your argument. Assassinating Gavilar was the only choice they had at the time which they thought was enough to stop the next desolations from coming. We know it wasn't enough but saying that he was willing to talk is just plain wrong. I can only imagine the horror that would have happened if Gavilar didn't get assassinated and proceeded to bring back odium/unmade before any of the radiants that we have were around. At the time Dalinar wasn't the man he is today and Jasnah was the only one close to forming a proper bond(Aside from Shallan who repressed everything). Not to mention there would be a whole host more parshendi due to most of them not being killed yet by the war. If anything it seems that killing Gavilar saved more Alethi lives than it killed.

 

I disagree. First, we don't know what Gavilar wanted to do. If Gavilar knew he was 'bringing back the Parshendi gods', he would have never shared this information with them.  You have no grounds to claim that if he knew he'd harm the Parshendi, he'd still would have done it.

 

Second, the Parshendi didn't tell Gavilar what whatever he was going to do, would do to them. They didn't say a word. Instead, they assassinated him without explaining their reasons to anyone. Dalinar mentioned they'd send messengers to talk to the Parshendi after the assassination and they killed all of them. What were the alethi to think and do?

[Numb]

You presume nearly everything you just stated. 

We have other characters suggesting that Gavilar was trying to do X, but no indication that he really knew what he was doing. If he knew that doing X would bring back the Knights Radiant but didn't know the cost, he's not some evil tyrant that wouldn't listen to reason. Which brings us to another point.

We have evidence suggesting Gavilar was never approached by the Parshendii to dissuade him from doing whatever it was - he mentions several people who might have reason to kill him and cannot imagine why anyone else would. We also know that when the Parshendii were confronted on why they did it, they STILL wouldn't explain. So with reasons of their own, without trying to peaceably argue against Gavilar's course of action, they had him killed on the same day they made a peace treaty with him. That's assassination at its purest. 

The Parshendii (minus Eshonai to a degree) knowingly accepted a form for its ability to destroy with every intention of harming humans. All except a few who fled. It was Eshonai and Eshonai's sister who were responsible for all that destruction (which stems from them misleading the rest of the Parshendii). It wasn't a human decision. The humans were trying to come to an agreement. 

Provide evidence next time you say I'm wrong. 

 

None of that is evidence either. All we have is educated guesses on the limited information that we have seen. You merely taken the exact same limited information and drawn different conclusions then called that evidence. So let's look at what we do know. List form seems like a good way to do that

 

-Gavilar was the head of the Kholin family.

-Gavilar became the king of the Alethi people by uniting the high princes under him

-His public figure and private figure were different(Jasnah mentions this)

-He started reading the book The Way of the Kings which characters note had a noticeable effect on him.

-He was interested in the Parshendi for reasons characters aren't quite sure about

-He carried some black gemstone that he didn't want someone getting their hands on(Doesn't state who). 

-He had visions before his death. We don't know if they were the same ones Dalinar has received.

-He spoke to Mr. T about these visions and was the cause of Mr. T starting the Diagram.

-Armaman also knew about the visions.

-He told the Parshendi he wanted to return their gods sometime during the treaty or before it.

 

I think that's all we really know about Gavilar prior to this death. I may have missed something so please correct me if so. Let's look at the Parshendi.

 

-Require Spren in order to change forms and various forms of intelligence(seem incapable of art/creativity in current forms).

-The spren decided to bond with humans instead of them

-Became dullform to rid themselves of their gods(Begs the question of who are the slaveform parshmen then?)

-Assassinated Gavilar to stop the plan of their gods returning

-Retreated into Shattered plains and didn't mention to anyone why they did what they did.

-Enter into stormform and create the everstorm.

-In the past could not become KR(not sure if this is important or not)

 

We really don't know that much about the parshendi. There's some loose evidence about them being around before humans but it's not explicitly stated so I didn't list it. There's also evidence of them not having much free will once in the odiumus forms but again it isn't explicitly stated and all we have for that is Eshonai's screams. I can't find any evidence to suggest that they didn't speak to Gavilar about not wanting their gods to return, can you please point me to the chapter I need to check out. We do know they told no one why they did it until Eshonai tells Adolin and even then she mentions it off hand.

 

I never listed how exactly Gavilar got into power. It's implied that he did some pretty nasty things to achieve that but again we don't have much hard evidence. From what I can tell the evidence can be taken either way so I'm curious as to why there are so many siding with Gavilar/Alethi in this case. Did I miss something monumental that shows them as being the ones in the right?

Edited May 5, 2014 by Numb

[Aleksiel]

 

 

He told the Parshendi he wanted to return their gods sometime during the treaty or before it.

 

Incorrect. He shared his plan with them. It's unclear if he knew what it would mean to them.

Considering how little alethi knew about the parshendi, my educated guess is he didn't know. Alethi don't know the connection between spren and parshfroms before Rlain explained it to Dalinar.

 

What we know is that Parshedni never tried to resolve the matter in a non-violent way. They didn't try to talk Gavilar out of his plan, they murdered him.

 

The alethi wanted an explanation and got dead messengers instead. For all they know, the Parshedni killed unprovoked their king on the night of the celebrated peace between them. In the  light of that, their declaration of war is perfectly understandable.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

None of that is evidence either. All we have is educated guesses on the limited information that we have seen. You merely taken the exact same limited information and drawn different conclusions then called that evidence. So let's look at what we do know. List form seems like a good way to do that

 

We really don't know that much about the parshendi. There's some loose evidence about them being around before humans but it's not explicitly stated so I didn't list it. There's also evidence of them not having much free will once in the odiumus forms but again it isn't explicitly stated and all we have for that is Eshonai's screams. I can't find any evidence to suggest that they didn't speak to Gavilar about not wanting their gods to return, can you please point me to the chapter I need to check out. We do know they told no one why they did it until Eshonai tells Adolin and even then she mentions it off hand.

 

I never listed how exactly Gavilar got into power. It's implied that he did some pretty nasty things to achieve that but again we don't have much hard evidence. From what I can tell the evidence can be taken either way so I'm curious as to why there are so many siding with Gavilar/Alethi in this case. Did I miss something monumental that shows them as being the ones in the right?

No, the point isn't that the Alethi are in the right. The point is that there is no evidence that they are in the wrong for any reason. There is an action/reaction chain that leads to what we have seen, and the morality of it doesn't have a single thing to do with who was around first. That's the point I was arguing initially. 

However, I do think that the Parshendii's refusal to give any sort of explanation for the assassination is evidence that they aren't trying to negotiate. We have clear evidence that the humans are trying to negotiate. Szeth (sent by the Parshendii) assassinating Gavilar is also a stone cold fact. So that pushes my opinion towards the Alethi being in the right here. 

People come on this site and read opinion posts that frame characters in a certain way, then start molding events around an opinion. There is no proof that Gavilar knew what he was doing, and there is good reason for the Alethi to have reacted the way they did to his assassination (the Parshendii themselves state that the reaction was expected). The several chances that the Parshendii have to negotiate and end the violence are consistently ignored for some reason, and everyone has decided Gavilar is on the "bad guy" side by association. 

My point was never to say that your opinions can't be right - Gavilar could be an absolute monster, and the Alethi too - but you can't manipulate a lack of evidence and the theory "they were there first" to absolutely criminalize a society. Other stances are possible and  I would say probable. 

[Numb]

Dam wall of text got deleted. 

 

This is all speculation so bare with me. Mr. T knows about the unmade and about how the Radiants get formed(or at least signs relating to their formation). His intelligence is only as good as the information at this disposal so unless there is some force giving him information without his knowledge he couldn't have known this unless the information is out there somewhere. Mr. T also says the words "unite them" which implies that he had enough of a relationship with Gavilar to know about the visions(Not to say they are the same ones). The question comes now did Mr. T only find out this information after Gavilar's death or did he know it before? Well I don't know. I think he knew at least some of it so it's hard for me to say that Gavilar was completely ignorant at the time. He might not have known the full implications of his plan but I do believe he knew a fair amount.

 

As for the Parshendi never attempting to resolve it in a non-violent way, how do we know this? All we truly know is that Gavilar told them his plan and later they assassinated him. We don't know what exchange happened between them aside from that. It's even more interesting in that Szeth was under the employ of the assassin Jasnah speaks to prior to his death(I forgot her name). Were the Parshendi perhaps manipulated in this situation? Until we know more I don't think we can say for sure they never tried anything else.

 

The Alethi reaction makes sense. As a whole they know nothing about all these secret societies or what Gavilar was up to. You also can't fault the Parshendi for not revealing this information. Who exactly would believe the people that just murdered their own king. Even if they didn't murder him and instead went to the other Alethi I highly doubt anyone would believe them. They viewed them as uncultured savages. War was an inevitable action.

 

@Bloodfalcon - I should apologize, my tone in previous reply was rather aggressive and I'm sorry about it. You are completely right that these are merely opinions and can't be right or wrong. We know almost nothing for certain and my claiming one interpretation is wrong is rather terrible of me.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Numb

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Dam wall of text got deleted. 

 

This is all speculation so bare with me. Mr. T knows about the unmade and about how the Radiants get formed(or at least signs relating to their formation). His intelligence is only as good as the information at this disposal so unless there is some force giving him information without his knowledge he couldn't have known this unless the information is out there somewhere. Mr. T also says the words "unite them" which implies that he had enough of a relationship with Gavilar to know about the visions(Not to say they are the same ones). The question comes now did Mr. T only find out this information after Gavilar's death or did he know it before? Well I don't know. I think he knew at least some of it so it's hard for me to say that Gavilar was completely ignorant at the time. He might not have known the full implications of his plan but I do believe he knew a fair amount.

 

As for the Parshendi never attempting to resolve it in a non-violent way, how do we know this? All we truly know is that Gavilar told them his plan and later they assassinated him. We don't know what exchange happened between them aside from that. It's even more interesting in that Szeth was under the employ of the assassin Jasnah speaks to prior to his death(I forgot her name). Were the Parshendi perhaps manipulated in this situation? Until we know more I don't think we can say for sure they never tried anything else.

 

The Alethi reaction makes sense. As a whole they know nothing about all these secret societies or what Gavilar was up to. You also can't fault the Parshendi for not revealing this information. Who exactly would believe the people that just murdered their own king. Even if they didn't murder him and instead went to the other Alethi I highly doubt anyone would believe them. They viewed them as uncultured savages. War was an inevitable action.

 

@Bloodfalcon - I should apologize, my tone in previous reply was rather aggressive and I'm sorry about it. You are completely right that these are merely opinions and can't be right or wrong. We know almost nothing for certain and my claiming one interpretation is wrong is rather terrible of me.

 

Not your fault. I'm guilty of it too. This is one of maybe 3 discussions that inevitably gets heated every time because it hits so close to home for some people. There are plenty of similarities to real world issues that people can have very firm opinions on. Brandon does this on purpose. Such an instigator. Haha

[Pathfinder]

This is pretty much ye olde zombie apocalypse dilemma but on crack lol. Do I shoot my loved one who is bit before they change, or do I wait, hoping they aren't infected, but risk them changing and possibly infecting others? But this is far worse because one, we are talking EN MASSE, and two since its a storm, you can't prevent them from being "bit"