The 17S 4 Reputation Discussion Thread

[Argel]

Like the new site overall, now that the brightness has been toned down. The one thing I really dislike is the change to Reputation. Either you should show the number, or some kind of obvious scale (like Reputation: 10+ 20+ 30+ 50+ 100+ 200+ 300+ 400+ .... ) or stop showing the reputation title. As is, it looks like a title the user may have chosen, and as has already been pointed out, some of those titles can appear to be offensive without the reputation context. Personally, I think it's useful to know who has high reputation, since e.g. someone with 4000+ reputation weighing in on a subject is more likely to be familiar with all of the meta info out there than someone new.  If you are worried about it being too competitive, then maybe the scales I listed above would be a good compromise?  Another option may be to go with boring but obvious titles such as "Reputation Rank 5" and maybe have 20 levels/ranks. Anyway, bottom line is I would really like to see some kind of indicator, or if that's out of the question then stop displaying the current reputation titles.

[Straw]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

Like the new site overall, now that the brightness has been toned down. The one thing I really dislike is the change to Reputation. Either you should show the number, or some kind of obvious scale (like Reputation: 10+ 20+ 30+ 50+ 100+ 200+ 300+ 400+ .... ) or stop showing the reputation title. As is, it looks like a title the user may have chosen, and as has already been pointed out, some of those titles can appear to be offensive without the reputation context. Personally, I think it's useful to know who has high reputation, since e.g. someone with 4000+ reputation weighing in on a subject is more likely to be familiar with all of the meta info out there than someone new.  If you are worried about it being too competitive, then maybe the scales I listed above would be a good compromise?  Another option may be to go with boring but obvious titles such as "Reputation Rank 5" and maybe have 20 levels/ranks. Anyway, bottom line is I would really like to see some kind of indicator, or if that's out of the question then stop displaying the current reputation titles.

I agree with this.

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

Like the new site overall, now that the brightness has been toned down. The one thing I really dislike is the change to Reputation. Either you should show the number, or some kind of obvious scale (like Reputation: 10+ 20+ 30+ 50+ 100+ 200+ 300+ 400+ .... ) or stop showing the reputation title. As is, it looks like a title the user may have chosen, and as has already been pointed out, some of those titles can appear to be offensive without the reputation context. Personally, I think it's useful to know who has high reputation, since e.g. someone with 4000+ reputation weighing in on a subject is more likely to be familiar with all of the meta info out there than someone new.  If you are worried about it being too competitive, then maybe the scales I listed above would be a good compromise?  Another option may be to go with boring but obvious titles such as "Reputation Rank 5" and maybe have 20 levels/ranks. Anyway, bottom line is I would really like to see some kind of indicator, or if that's out of the question then stop displaying the current reputation titles.

I can understand the dislike for not having the number there. I kind of miss it too. This was made as a compromise in a long, heated discussion a few months ago about the reputation system. Its purpose is to de-emphasize the numerical value on people, yet to retain the fun titles as well as the numerical value on posts. 

We currently have no plans of removing titles, nor any plans to put numbers on profile tickers. If you would like a glancable means of determining the value of posts I would encourage you to look at the lower right of a post  

Honestly, whatever we do with the rep system, someone doesn't like it, so we can't really win.

[CaptainRyan]

35 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I can understand the dislike for not having the number there. I kind of miss it too. This was made as a compromise in a long, heated discussion a few months ago about the reputation system. Its purpose is to de-emphasize the numerical value on people, yet to retain the fun titles as well as the numerical value on posts. 

We currently have no plans of removing titles, nor any plans to put numbers on profile tickers. If you would like a glancable means of determining the value of posts I would encourage you to look at the lower right of a post  

Honestly, whatever we do with the rep system, someone doesn't like it, so we can't really win.

Could you do a mouseover thing? Mouseover someone's title to see what rep the person has? Or even just show the minimum rep to trigger that title? Or click on the title to expand to show the rep/minimum rep?  

I, personally, loved the reputation system - especially as someone who lurked for a long-time without making an account. I see these God Beyond's and Lerasium Mistborn's and the numbers and ohhh what a system!  

Oh well, I know you are in a tough position trying to appease everyone. Do whatever you think is best! I am mainly here to learn, share and occasionally annoy @Pathfinder and @Blightsong  

[Argel]

51 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Honestly, whatever we do with the rep system, someone doesn't like it, so we can't really win.

 

55 minutes ago, Chaos said:

yet to retain the fun titles

Then you should at least remove the offensive titles from the list then. This is the official fan site for Brandon, and his fans shouldn't be forced to endure offensive reputation titles. It was tolerable before when the reputation value was there to give it context, but now the only context is a meaningless "+" sign (meaningless in the sense that until you see someone  with a '-' sign it's not clear that it means positive reputation).

[Chaos]

6 minutes ago, Argel said:

 

Then you should at least remove the offensive titles from the list then. This is the official fan site for Brandon, and his fans shouldn't be forced to endure offensive reputation titles. It was tolerable before when the reputation value was there to give it context, but now the only context is a meaningless "+" sign (meaningless in the sense that until you see someone  with a '-' sign it's not clear that it means positive reputation).

Could you tell me which you find "offensive"? I just looked at the list and I don't see ones that would be offensive. Yes some come from villainous factions, but I don't see "offensive".

EDIT: If they were deemed offensive, they would never have been titles in the first place.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Chaos

[Nyali]

21 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Could you tell me which you find "offensive"? I just looked at the list and I don't see ones that would be offensive. Yes some come from villainous factions, but I don't see "offensive".

Here are some of the negative associations that I personally have with some of the words used as titles:

 

Gyorn - religious terrorist (leaders in a militaristic religious extremist movement)

Wyrn - Osama bin Laden

Envisager - suicidal / cultist

Silent Gatherer - nazi doctor

Svrakiss, Unmade, Voidbringer, Midnight Essence - demon/devil

Stone Shaman - another form of religious extremist

Lord Ruler - fascist

Steel Inquisitor, Dakhor Monk - demonic assassin

Obligator, Prelan, High Prelan, Arteth - various forms of "corrupt government official" or "religious extremist"

Skaa, Bridgeman, Ardent - slave

Houselord, Lighteyes, Highprince - slave owner

There's nothing THAT bad there in my opinion, to be honest, besides Silent Gatherer, Envisager, and some of the Derethi ones.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Nyali

[CaptainRyan]

31 minutes ago, Nyali said:

Here are some of the negative associations that I personally have with some of the words used as titles:

  Hide contents

Gyorn - religious terrorist (leaders in a militaristic religious extremist movement)

Wyrn - Osama bin Laden

Envisager - suicidal / cultist

Silent Gatherer - nazi doctor

Svrakiss, Unmade, Voidbringer, Midnight Essence - demon/devil

Stone Shaman - another form of religious extremist

Lord Ruler - fascist

Steel Inquisitor, Dakhor Monk - demonic assassin

Obligator, Prelan, High Prelan, Arteth - various forms of "corrupt government official" or "religious extremist"

Skaa, Bridgeman, Ardent - slave

Houselord, Lighteyes, Highprince - slave owner

There's nothing THAT bad there in my opinion, to be honest, besides Silent Gatherer, Envisager, and some of the Derethi ones.

I would like to say that I think these descriptions are pretty subjective. I, for one, am excited for when/if I reach most of those levels. Why? Because some of them are powerful/cool (Steel Inquisitor), Gyorn is the title of one of the best characters ever written (Hrathen), etc etc. While I respect the idea that someone could be offended by these titles I am not sold on the idea that, therefore, they should not be allowed. I think we can all just live and let live eh?

[Oversleep]

It's fascinating how we know next to nothing about Stone Shamans and they're already perceived religious extremists...

Also, take a note that not all obligators were evil. Also, ardents are "basically slaves" but they're not slaves per se.

And of course all Lighteyes, Houselords and Highprinces are evil. Yeah, totally. Just claim that the whole Rosharan society system is evil.

EDIT:
I misunderstood Nyali's comment and as the consequence my post is unecessarily aggresive.
I apologize for that, but I won't be editing it as I believe everybody has the right to see what I wrote in the first place and the Shard doesn't have any way to track 'edit history'.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Oversleep

[Nyali]

2 hours ago, Oversleep said:

It's fascinating how we know next to nothing about Stone Shamans and they're already perceived religious extremists...

Also, take a note that not all obligators were evil. Also, ardents are "basically slaves" but they're not slaves per se.

And of course all Lighteyes, Houselords and Highprinces are evil. Yeah, totally. Just claim that the whole Rosharan society system is evil.

Thank you for taking my post entirely out of context. I truly appreciate it.

[Argel]

11 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

I think we can all just live and let live eh?

That works for an unoffical fan site, but fans should be able to participate in the official fan site without being e.g. associated with murderous religious zealots and other offensive titles/villains. 

Additionally, without the reputation number, some of the titles could be mistaken for negative reputation.

I know I wasn't happy about some of the early ones at the time I had them, but with the reputation number, I didn't feel the need to complain. I don't remember them off the top of my head -- is there a list of titles? The Bridgerunner one did not thrill me (thought it was tolerable), and I think there was one either before it or after it that bothered me a lot more.

I'm also a bit confused why anyone would think being associated with a villainous organization, especially the more extreme ones, could not be offensive to some fans? Yes, some will find those titles cool, but is that really a good enough reason to force fans that do find the associations offensive to suffer them?

More to the point, do the reputation titles represent Brandon and his official fan site well? Do they serve the goals and responsibilities of the official fan site? If said titles were dropped entirely would it hurt the site? If not, then isn't keeping them needlessly offending segments of the fan base? Is it wrong for fans to want to be able to participate in the official fansite without the negative associations?

Edited June 16, 2016 by Argel
Grammar, layout

[Mestiv]

There was a lot of discussion about reputation in Upvotes and Downvotes thread, maybe we should move back there, as this topic is meant for discussion about the new layout and features. Reputation ranks are not a new feature.

[Argel]

1 minute ago, Mestiv said:

Reputation ranks are not a new feature

But how they are being displayed is a new feature. I thought I made it clear that when the level of reputation was included, the titles were tolerable. The reason my view on this has changed is specifically because of the site version 4 changes.

[Haelbarde]

@Argel Here is a user compiled list of the rep levels.

[Young Bard]

13 hours ago, Nyali said:

Here are some of the negative associations that I personally have with some of the words used as titles:

  Reveal hidden contents

Gyorn - religious terrorist (leaders in a militaristic religious extremist movement)

Wyrn - Osama bin Laden

Envisager - suicidal / cultist

Silent Gatherer - nazi doctor

Svrakiss, Unmade, Voidbringer, Midnight Essence - demon/devil

Stone Shaman - another form of religious extremist

Lord Ruler - fascist

Steel Inquisitor, Dakhor Monk - demonic assassin

Obligator, Prelan, High Prelan, Arteth - various forms of "corrupt government official" or "religious extremist"

Skaa, Bridgeman, Ardent - slave

Houselord, Lighteyes, Highprince - slave owner

There's nothing THAT bad there in my opinion, to be honest, besides Silent Gatherer, Envisager, and some of the Derethi ones.

 

@Argel, you asked how I would want to be associated with those characters, and whether Sharders would be offended by the name.

Well, I can only speak for me, but my personal opinion is no. I have no problem with that. For one, they're fantasy characters. At the end of the day, they're not real, and I'm not those characters.

For starters, these are characters that have been written in a book that I nearly tear apart flicking pages as I read, digest, process, and analyze. And, a quintessential part of these books are the villains. Without these characters, the book wouldn't be nearly as good. So, I love these characters, not because they're good people, or because I agree with them, or because I'd like them in real life, but because they serve to make the story, the elaborate illusion that Sanderson set up, a more interesting place.

That doesn't change when these titles appear next to my name. When I am a Gyorn, or a Silent Gatherer, I can still accept that these titles are labels based of a story that I enjoy. Simply because they appear next to my name doesn't change who I am, what I stand for, or how others view me. In fact, beyond maybe a couple quick posts now and again, I usually completely forget my reputation is there a lot of the time.

Finally, I would ask whether you think these examples could somehow lead to offence. Is it offensive if an actor plays a villain, be it James Earl Jones as Darth Vader, Christopher Lee as Saruman, or Ralph Fiennes as Lord Voldemort, simply because they don a role, it doesn't mean they support the views of the character, or would approve of their actions. Reputation works in the same way, except it's a hardly noticeable because it will only ever appear at a post besides your name for a period of time.

So no, I see no problems with the titles as they are. When I first read your argument, I thought you were saying that one or two of the titles had a real-life connotation, which happened once before (for reference, I think it was Half-Blooded, a racial slur against African Americans, which got changed to Noble-Blooded). However, I see no problem with this.

I'm sorry if I'm being overly aggressive with this. If you found anything I said to be offensive, then post or PM me, and I'll rephrase my point.

[Delightful]

I agree with Young Bard. When I was Lord Ruler I didn't see it as "I have the rank of a fascist" it was more ULTIMATE POWERR! And silent gatherer is definitely creepy but....it's all the spirit of fun, it's all fictional characters and I personally have no issue. 

[Nyali]

To be clear, in case I wasn't (which seems to be the case?), I wasn't saying that any of those titles offended me, but that I have negative associations with some of those titles. There was a question about which titles people considered negative, so I listed some, and concluded that they really aren't that bad/offensive. The only one that really bothers me personally is being called a "silent gatherer," but that's a personal thing, due to issues with harmful malpractice/negligence/discrimination from medical professionals in real life.

Though, I also didn't appreciate being force-associated with militant religious extremists shortly after a religious extremist committed the largest mass shooting in US history, specifically targeting a minority I happen to belong to. That wasn't terribly comfortable, even if it's a fictional group and the association was weak. I felt that way before the change too though, but it didn't bug me until after the change with the context removed (I kinda ignored the titles before, just reading the number). I cared less a couple days later, but I wasn't personally affected by the tragedy (my cousin who lives just a mile away from the club was working at the time, and none of her LGBT friends happened to be at the club then either).

I still feel that titles like these should either be clearly not user-chosen (by having the rep number or a numeric rep rank associated with them), or they should not appear on every post you make. I'd like to suggest, if you don't want to include the exact numbers, you number the ranks from 0 to N, so instead of it showing up as like "Bridgeman," it was "4 - Bridgeman" for being the fourth rank. That gives no more information than the rank itself gives, it just precludes having to check a lookup table like the one linked. It also gives just as much information to a new visitor than it does to someone who's memorized the system, rather than requiring new visitors to guess where each rank stands relative to one another.

So, like, replace the rank names with the rank number followed by the rank name, like this (hidden because long):

Spoiler

-8 - Chasmfiend Corpse
-7 - Zucchini
-6 - Lamespren
-5 - Rotting Chull Carcass
-4 - Beheaded Inquisitioner
-3 - Hoed
-2 - Lifeless
-1 - Negaspren
0 - Spren
1 - Darkeyes
2 - Skaa
3 - Spearman
4 - Bridgeman
5 - Noble-Blooded
6 - Awakened Object
7 - Pahn Kahl
8 - Ardent
9 - Crew Leader
10 - Noble
11 - Grand
12 - Lighteyes
13 - Obligator
14 - Idrian Monk
15 - Arteth
16 - Prelan
17 - Babsk
18 - Houselord
19 - Forescout
20 - Hazekiller
21 - Cobalt Guard
22 - Oldblood
23 - High prelan
24 - Gyorn
25 - Arbiter
26 - Misting
27 - Silent Gatherer
28 - Bloodsealer
29 - Stormwarden
30 - Ferring
31 - Artifabrian
32 - Envisager
33 - Ghostblood
34 - King's Tester
35 - Vanisher
36 - Son of Honor
37 - King's Wit
38 - lord Prelan
39 - Dakhor Monk
40 - Forger
41 - Soulcaster
42 - Shade
43 - Torturer of Heralds
44 - Svrakiss
45 - Originator
46 - Elantrian
47 - Wyrn the King
48 - Spinner
49 - Seer
50 - Shardbearer
51 - Full Shardbearer
52 - Full Feruchemist
53 - Worldbringer
54 - Highprince
55 - Truthless
56 - Sentient Awakened Object
57 - HonorSpren
58 - Cryptic
59 - Stone Shaman
60 - Scadrian Waffle Cook
61 - Returned
62 - Twinborn
63 - Kandra
64 - Radiant Squire
65 - Surgebinder
66 - So 1337 Hoid Can't Compete
67 - Compounder
68 - Kalad's Phantom
69 - Enefel
70 - Listener
71 - Midnight Essence
72 - Gerontarch
73 - Savant
74 - Rambleman
75 - Dawnsinger
76 - Taracin Superstar
77 - Mistborn
78 - Steel Inquisitor
79 - Most Ancient
80 - Knight Radiant
81 - Voidbringer
82 - Bondsmith
83 - Lerasium Mistborn
84 - Prime
85 - Dawnshard
86 - Unmade
87 - Lord Ruler
88 - God of Color
89 - Worldhopper
90 - Nightwatcher
91 - Sliver
92 - Herald
93 - Stormfather
94 - Dragon
95 - Splinter
96 - Splintered Shard
97 - Shard
98 - The Broken One
99 - The Hero of Ages
100 - Adonalsium
101 - God Beyond

EDIT: Oh, and if you did use that system, if you remove one rank, the top rank (God Beyond) becomes rank number 100, which is nice and clean. The rank "so l33t hoid can't compete" doesn't really make sense without the number, and it gives the exact number in the rank name which removing the numbers was supposed to stop, so that seems like one that it might be best to remove anyway.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Nyali

[Delightful]

@Nyali you have my deepest sympathies. I know terror hurts like hell when it hits a community. Just because you weren't personally immediately effected doesn't mean it's not painful. If you want someone to talk to/rant at/get hugs from, my message box is always open. 

I see what you're saying, I thought you were suggesting changing the whole system around and renaming everything. I think numbering every single rank would look kinda clunky but I could get behind the concept. 

Edited June 16, 2016 by Delightful

[Nyali]

9 minutes ago, Delightful said:

@Nyali you have my deepest sympathies. I know terror hurts like hell when it hits a community. If you want someone to talk to/rant at/get hugs from, my message box is always open. 

I see what you're saying, I thought you were suggesting changing the whole system around and renaming everything. I think numbering every single rank would look kinda clunky but I could get behind the concept. 

In an earlier post, I had suggested either putting the number back in or moving the ranks to the profile only, but I hadn't suggested renaming things or removing the system entirely. Now, I've suggested a rename, but not one that changes the actual names, just adds a number before them.

Since we already have the + (and presumably a - for negative ranks), I personally wouldn't find it clunk to have a rank number follow. So, instead of appearing as "+ Gyorn" it would be "+ 25 - Gyorn" - alternatively, it might also look good to do it as "+ 25 Gyorn" without the "-", or to do "+ 25: Gyorn" or whatnot, the "-" was just one way to do it. Oh, and obviously, since we already have the +/- sign, there's no need to add a sign to the negative ones. So, Negaspren would just be "1: Negaspren" or whatnot, and would appear as "- 1: Negaspren" or whatever, whereas "1: Darkeyes" would appear as "+ 1: Darkeyes" or whatnot.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Nyali

[Argel]

@Nyali I really like the rank numbering idea.

There is one change I think should be made:  "Darkeyes" and "Lighteyes" should be renamed to something without (or at least with much less obvious) racial prejudice connotations. "Darkeyes" made me feel uncomfortable and I was very glad to rank up above it.

[Nyali]

1 minute ago, Argel said:

@Nyali I really like the rank numbering idea.

There is one change I think should be made:  "Darkeyes" and "Lighteyes" should be renamed to something without (or at least with much less obvious) racial prejudice connotations. "Darkeyes" made me feel uncomfortable and I was very glad to rank up above it.

While I understand where you're coming from and I'm not trying to minimize your feelings on the subject, I feel that's a separate discussion, as the actual names haven't changed from what was in use before. I believe a discussion of changing specific names should be taken to another thread, possibly this one or this one.

I'm trying to keep my comments in this thread to being about changes between the old UI and the new UI, and how the new UI could be tweaked. If numbers of some sort were put back in to give context, the interface becomes essentially the same as it used to be in that regard, and any further issues with it, I feel, should be discussed separate from this topic.

[Argel]

Well, I was asked for titles that I found offensive a couple pages back...

[Kaymyth]

2 hours ago, Nyali said:

  Hide contents

 

EDIT: Oh, and if you did use that system, if you remove one rank, the top rank (God Beyond) becomes rank number 100, which is nice and clean. The rank "so l33t hoid can't compete" doesn't really make sense without the number, and it gives the exact number in the rank name which removing the numbers was supposed to stop, so that seems like one that it might be best to remove anyway.

Actually, it has been heavily implied that there is at least one rank above God Beyond.

 

So.  I tried to post from mobile today.  It...didn't work.  I'm not sure why.

[Nyali]

Well, since it's sounding like there's no plans to actually change or hide rep, here's the uBlock code for blocking the reputation ranks from appearing:

##.ipsColumn_medium.ipsColumn.cAuthorPane.ipsComment_author > .ipsType_break.ipsType_blendLinks.cAuthorPane_author.ipsType_sectionHead > .ipsResponsive_inline.ipsResponsive_showPhone > .ipsRepBadge_positive.ipsRepBadge

Doesn't help new visitors and still makes me look like I support things I don't, but whatever, at least I don't have to see it anymore xD

EDIT: The above is only for the mobile version (when you shrink the screen enough and the site becomes usable and pretty again). If you're using the full browser version with the enormous and garish logo up top, try this to hide all rep ranks:

##.ipsColumn_medium.ipsColumn.cAuthorPane.ipsComment_author > .ipsList_reset.cAuthorPane_info > .ipsResponsive_hidePhone:nth-of-type(3) > .ipsRepBadge_positive.ipsRepBadge

 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Nyali

[Chaos]

I am still having a difficult time thinking that a random browser would look at these titles and say, "Wow clearly that guy is a religious zealot" or something. All they would need to do is scroll and they would see there are various reputation titles and it isn't user chosen. I think making the leap into thinking that people will think less of someone with some titles is rather paranoid. It seems extremely unlikely.

The titles are chosen like relative magical power level. Steel Inquisitor will absolutely be a title, as will Lord Ruler. They are just fun, cool things. 

I also don't think that lighteyes/darkeyes are offensive. We should not get offended about fictional racial distinctions. I guess it is fine if you want to be offended by that, but, it's fiction. 

As for Derethi or Steel Ministry titles, they may have negative connotation because of our perspective of the heroes we read in the books, but certainly not all of those people in said groups were evil. That would be an exaggeration. And more importantly, I'm pretty sure if people had a Prelan title, a browser isn't going to say, "Wow, what a jerk, that guy is a Steel Ministry supporter. Screw that guy in particular." No one in their right mind would make such illogical leaps.

We are considering having a hover over to display the rep total over the titles.

I would also like to mention again that removing the number from posts was a frequent suggestion in the last two rep discussions as ways to improve the system, and I was persuaded by them. The discussion kind of had already been done a while ago.