Death Chants Theory

[Bloodfalcon]

I would like to propose a theory...

We have a group of individuals that are directly involved with living after death: the Heralds. What if the death chants are a window into the minds of the Heralds, or something like that? 

 

I only thought of this after thinking on this thread for a while. This was the quote in question:

“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”

The Heralds clearly all have a screw loose now, which was my reasoning for considering them for this quote. It would make sense if it was connected to someone who had recently experienced a paradigm shift of sorts. My first thought was that this was a quote from one of the Heralds relating to the Shards on Roshar, so I kind of built on that. 

"All is withdrawn from me." could be talking about his powers or whatever changed when he gave up his blade and broke his oath. 

"I stand against the one who saved my life." He has a history with Honor, which we assume started off pretty well considering Jezrien is a Herald.

"I protect the one who killed my promises." The Oathpact is the biggest promise I can think of, and that thing was butchered. If Odium was responsible for that dissolving - pretty likely - this would make sense considering the Heralds' erratic behavior.  

"I raise my hand. The storm responds."  The Heralds may have had the power to control the storms or it may be figurative, but I think most users here have taken the stance that it is set to mean either control of highstorms or control of Stormlight, both of which are believed to be possible by at least one Herald.

 

 

This death chant is clearly from the mind of Taln, no? 

“The burdens of nine become mine. Why must I carry the madness of them all? Oh, Almighty, release me.”

 

I think this one is obviously about Shallash as well. She is the daughter of Jezrien and we think we see her scratching out her own image. I'm sure it has been discussed somewhere...

“A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal.”

As a continuation, it may be that the images on the arches represent the Herald speaking, or the audience of the quote (in addition to those that may appear in the chapter or other causes).

 

 

Was going to post some of this in the thread linked above, but it got so long and off track, I figured I would be jacking thread a bit xD

Any thoughts?

[Moogle]

At least one of the death chants refers to Kaladin (feast I must drink clings to their faces), so I'm not entirely sure if they are all about the Heralds or from their minds.

 

Maybe it's the spren in Shadesmar, speaking through people as they pass through the realms to wherever you go when you die in the Cosmere?

 

They'd probably be attracted to the Heralds and other Radiants, which could explain the abundance of quotes, though not how they seem to refer to the future.

[Bloodfalcon]

At least one of the death chants refers to Kaladin (feast I must drink clings to their faces), so I'm not entirely sure if they are all about the Heralds or from their minds.

 

Maybe it's the spren in Shadesmar, speaking through people as they pass through the realms to wherever you go when you die in the Cosmere?

 

They'd probably be attracted to the Heralds and other Radiants, which could explain the abundance of quotes, though not how they seem to refer to the future.

Can you link a thread or comment on why that one belongs to Kaladin?

[Moogle]

Can you link a thread or comment on why that one belongs to Kaladin?

 

“Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.”

 

The quote seems to refer to the time when Kaladin is rescuing Dalinar by doing an amazing jump from a bridge over a chasm.

• As Kaladin is jumping over a chasm, there's a 'void' below him. It's also quite possibly the final time he's going on a bridge run.
• Friends behind him: Bridge Four.
• Friends before him: Dalinar's army (also the Parshendi?).
• Feast I must drink: the Stormlight in the beards of every Parshendi he sucks in as he jumps.
• The Second Ideal of the Windrunners spark in his mind as his fall ends, where he says "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves."

The fit is just perfect. It mixes metaphor and what actually happened wonderfully. I'd honestly be disappointed if it wasn't Kaladin.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon]

I don't see it nearly as clearly as you do, I guess. I don't think that cliff is the "final" void. Kaladin also has really no friendship with Dalinar's army. The feast part is pretty convincing, so I can believe it as much as any other considering I don't have anyone else in mind. 

Either way, I have always been a fan of the hope that the main characters in the series would be promoted to the open Herald positions at some point, so it could be a sort of hint at that if Kaladin's thoughts are mixed with the thoughts of the old Heralds. This theory is pretty open right now to different paths, haha.

[hoser]

Moogle has really made the point that I will just expand: some of the quotes are definitely not heralds.  Consider the following taken from Cheese Ninja's compilation.

 

2. “You’ve killed me. Bastards, you’ve killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die!”

The dying person

 

3.“Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?”

Would seem to be a Radiant
 

“I’m dying, aren’t I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.”

the dying person

 

You have sparked an idea that I can't discuss here.

[Arook]

I have always felt that most of the quotes belong to Taln so I agree with this for the most part. 

 

“I’m dying, aren’t I? Healer, why do you take my blood? Who is that beside you, with his head of lines? I can see a distant sun, dark and cold, shining in a black sky.”

 

That quote is not a true death rattle but, a dying man who like Shallon can see Shadesmar  and the odd spren, written down due to the oddity of it.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Arook

[Kurkistan]

Terminology update: It's "death rattles", not "death chants."

Edited January 10, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Bloodfalcon]

Moogle has really made the point that I will just expand: some of the quotes are definitely not heralds.  Consider the following taken from Cheese Ninja's compilation.

 

The dying person

 

Would seem to be a Radiant

 

the dying person

 

You have sparked an idea that I can't discuss here.

Heralds can die and do all the time. Also, I thought it was pretty accepted that Heralds were seen as something like the head of each Order. I don't see a problem with Heralds identifying with the 10 Orders of Knights Radiant that I'm sure they had a part in founding. 

[Bloodfalcon]

Terminology update: It's "death rattles", not "death chants."

I accept it, but it pains me b/c every time I hear death rattle I'm going to think of the term as it applies to Hearthstone. 

[Aether]

Terminology update: It's "death rattles", not "death chants."

Too bad. I was amongst the most fervent propagators of "Death Chants". I like the sound of it better.

[Swimmingly]

I accept it, but it pains me b/c every time I hear death rattle I'm going to think of the term as it applies to Hearthstone.

Which is Kal's hometown!

[DocHoliday]

I don't see it nearly as clearly as you do, I guess. I don't think that cliff is the "final" void. Kaladin also has really no friendship with Dalinar's army. The feast part is pretty convincing.

Final void is a metaphor, which can make any connection that we wish. IMO, this was the point in which Kaladin overcame a major portion of his prejudice against Lighteyes to serve the greater good. The Final void in this sense is both physical (the chasm) and emotional (his hatred).

 

I think we can state with certainty that Kaladin has no attachment to anyone in the Kholin camp at that time. However extending the bridge to Dalinar was akin to extending the hand of friendship. And if not, a common for definitely makes them allies.

[Bloodfalcon]

Final void is a metaphor, which can make any connection that we wish. IMO, this was the point in which Kaladin overcame a major portion of his prejudice against Lighteyes to serve the greater good. The Final void in this sense is both physical (the chasm) and emotional (his hatred).

 

I think we can state with certainty that Kaladin has no attachment to anyone in the Kholin camp at that time. However extending the bridge to Dalinar was akin to extending the hand of friendship. And if not, a common for definitely makes them allies.

Even for metaphors, that is pretty loose... Final implies metaphor to me, but there is definitely an implied "lastness" to it. Kaladin still seems to have a lot of his prejudice toward the light eyes if you ask me. Hence his second guessing every nice thing said about one, even now. It would be a major let down in the plot if that was Kaladin's final moment disliking lighteyes. Also wasn't the last chasm he will cross, so I don't think that holds much weight. 

I don't think a common foe would be enough for someone to say "Friends behind. friends before." As a metaphor all of this would actually make much more sense coming from a Herald. Final void being the end of their thought-to-be-eternal-lives. Friends behind is physical; they are with a group of friends, the Heralds they have known for quite a while. Friends before is referring to the same people, but referencing that they were friends the reincarnation aspect of the friendship. Maybe they have to speak the words every time they are reincarnated. Couldn't tell ya. But I think the first and last lines apply better to Heralds, and the "feast I must drink on their faces" line sounds like a Kaldin thing, though it may apply to any Herald around the Parshendii as well, considering the Parshendii may have a huge significance that we don't know the details of, and the Heralds might have had tons of interaction with them before. 

Anyway, if that is the only evidence for this quote being Kaladin specific, I don't think I'm buying, but I do think it is just as likely as the Heralds there. 

[Aether]

You seem to be a bit stuck on this Herald idea. Some of the quotes clearly are, sure, while others clearly are not if you ask me. Especially in this particular case, you seem to be stretching it a bit. I feel like you might be suffering at least a bit from confirmation bias.

[Elbereth]

I would like to propose a theory...

My first thought was that this was a quote from one of the Heralds relating to the Shards on Roshar, so I kind of built on that. 

"I protect the one who killed my promises." The Oathpact is the biggest promise I can think of, and that thing was butchered. If Odium was responsible for that dissolving - pretty likely - this would make sense considering the Heralds' erratic behavior.  

My first thought was that this is referring to humankind. This particular part could come from Honor, actually. He's protecting humankind even though they broke all of his promises. Or it could be a Herald referring to the Radiants. I don't know. I just think it might not be about the Oathpact.

[Bloodfalcon]

You seem to be a bit stuck on this Herald idea. Some of the quotes clearly are, sure, while others clearly are not if you ask me. Especially in this particular case, you seem to be stretching it a bit. I feel like you might be suffering at least a bit from confirmation bias.

I appreciate you trying to consider all of the possibilities for my reasoning, but you are wrong and I am not and I will tell you why. 

I changed my mind in the shower just now. 

The Heralds idea as it pertains to that quote makes just as much, if not more sense than the Kaladin evidence cited above. But I was thinking in the shower of all of the options and decided I like a Kaladin interpretation better, where:

- The final void is the Parshendii. We have yet to truly see how, but there is evidence for them being connected to some pretty powerful stuff. 

- Friends behind is Bridge 4 as Kaladin defends them from the Parshendii at the battle for the Tower.

- Friends before is also Bridge 4, as they were his friends before any of his powers started distinguishing him. Could also be he is citing an event that    is yet to happen, especially considering the quote has something of an omniscient tone. 

- Feast to drink is stormlight, as mentioned above by Moogle.

- Faces - Parshendii, as mentioned above by Moogle.

- The words are obviously the Ideals

A person suffering from confirmation bias doesn't change his mind in the shower within 5 minutes. I will give you this though, I'm often doing my best to challenge groupthink, which runs rampant here and is the reason I'm so excited for the "I told you so" threads by hoser. Sometimes I'm so desperate to reverse uncertain certainties that I stretch things. This isn't that though. 

Of course that still leaves me hoping that Kaladin and the other main characters will be filling in as Heralds at some point, and this will all come back to work. Just a hope, though; I think it would make for a great plot of replacing the Heralds.... forcibly. 

[Aether]

My first thought was that this is referring to humankind. This particular part could come from Honor, actually. He's protecting humankind even though they broke all of his promises. Or it could be a Herald referring to the Radiants. I don't know. I just think it might not be about the Oathpact.

I like the idea that it refers to humans, but then who saved whose life? Honour is by all accounts dead.

 

The Heralds idea as it pertains to that quote makes just as much, if not more sense than the Kaladin evidence cited above. But I was thinking in the shower of all of the options and decided I like a Kaladin interpretation better.

I still find your choice of words peculiar, as I do not see how the Heralds idea makes "just as much, if not more sense". But it's cool that you changed your mind upon reflection. Kudos to you for having an open mind!

 

- Friends behind is Bridge 4 as Kaladin defends them from the Parshendii at the battle for the Tower.

- Friends before is also Bridge 4, as they were his friends before any of his powers started distinguishing him. Could also be he is citing an event that is yet to happen, especially considering the quote has something of an omniscient tone. 

I would be hesitant to interpret "before" chronologically. "Behind" is quite clearly a spatial preposition; even in the context of a prophecy, it would not make sense to switch from a spatial one right over to a temporal one. Whether it is referring to the Parshendi or the Alethi Army is up for debate, but I am quite sure it is not meant to be understood thus.

 

TA person suffering from confirmation bias doesn't change his mind in the shower within 5 minutes. I will give you this though, I'm often doing my best to challenge groupthink, which runs rampant here and is the reason I'm so excited for the "I told you so" threads by hoser. Sometimes I'm so desperate to reverse uncertain certainties that I stretch things. This isn't that though.

The the "I Told you so!" Thread is awesome!

 

It is good to question "groupthink", but it can be just as bad to be in opposition of something, just because most people believe it, as supporting it can be.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Aether

[Bloodfalcon]

I still find your choice of words peculiar, as I do not see how the Heralds idea makes "just as much, if not more sense". But it's cool that you changed your mind upon reflection. Kudos to you for having an open mind!

 

I would be hesitant to interpret "before" chronologically. "Behind" is quite clearly a spatial preposition; even in the context of a prophecy, it would not make sense to switch from a spatial one right over to a temporal one. Whether it is referring to the Parshendi or the Alethi Army is up for debate, but I am quite sure it is not meant to be understood thus.

 

The the "I Told you so!" Thread is awesome!

 

It is good to question "groupthink", but it can be just as bad to be in opposition of something, just because most people believe it, as supporting it can be.

Totally agree on that last point. But the reason I think it is just as good or better is because it would have significance. There is nothing really significant or profound about Kaladin being over a chasm. Also, as I've pointed out, I don't think he was friends with the Kholin soldiers, I don't think that was the final physical chasm, and I don't think he is over his distrust of lighteyes. That being said, it being based on the Heralds seems to fit more of the lines than Kaladin would -- I definitely wouldn't say Kaladin is the only possibility at least. That was before I changed my mind. Now I think Kaladin is more likely, but if Brandon revealed that it was meant for the Heralds, I wouldn't be shocked. 

The before thing is.... a hunch. After quite a lot of Wheel of Time prophecy interpretation, I've found that the first guess is often assuming that each word is a riddle (often right) but the surprise is sometimes that they are extremely straight forward in their meaning. I think that is one of them. You want to think of it as friends behind, friends ahead, but I think the twist will show it to be the more common use of "before". 

What really makes me want to chase a theory like this is that I consider Brandon to be an author that prefers patterns and explanations. Some of those quotes must come directly from the Heralds, so it would mean more to me if the ALL come from the Heralds. I was surprised at how plausible it was after going to look at all the death rattles. You are right that I am chasing this theory, but I promise it is more out of my expectations of the author than it is anything else (as much as I do want users to reconsider what they have set in stone by popular vote).

[kobain]

I personally feel that like "Snapping" in the Mistborn novels, the people that do death chants when dying are/were supposed to be Surgebinders.

[Kurkistan]

I personally feel that like "Snapping" in the Mistborn novels, the people that do death chants when dying are/were supposed to be Surgebinders.

 

Welcome to the forums!

 

That's an interesting idea. If we are to go down that road, though, I think we should settle on "are". We know that magic users on Roshar aren't born, they're made.

 

So maybe the same "spiritual wounds" that allow people to become Surgebinders leave them open to these death rattles?

Edited January 17, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Aether]

Surgebinding is not hereditary on Roshar. You get them by attracting Spren which only are interested in people acting according to certain ideals. I find it highly unlikely that some of the Bridgemen that "snapped" would have attracted Spren at that point.

Edit: I like Kurk' interpretation of the idea, though!

Edited January 17, 2014 by Aether

[Wonko the Sane]

Bloodfalcon, on 11 Jan 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

Totally agree on that last point. But the reason I think it is just as good or better is because it would have significance. There is nothing really significant or profound about Kaladin being over a chasm. Also, as I've pointed out, I don't think he was friends with the Kholin soldiers, I don't think that was the final physical chasm, and I don't think he is over his distrust of lighteyes. That being said, it being based on the Heralds seems to fit more of the lines than Kaladin would -- I definitely wouldn't say Kaladin is the only possibility at least. That was before I changed my mind. Now I think Kaladin is more likely, but if Brandon revealed that it was meant for the Heralds, I wouldn't be shocked.

The before thing is.... a hunch. After quite a lot of Wheel of Time prophecy interpretation, I've found that the first guess is often assuming that each word is a riddle (often right) but the surprise is sometimes that they are extremely straight forward in their meaning. I think that is one of them. You want to think of it as friends behind, friends ahead, but I think the twist will show it to be the more common use of "before".

What really makes me want to chase a theory like this is that I consider Brandon to be an author that prefers patterns and explanations. Some of those quotes must come directly from the Heralds, so it would mean more to me if the ALL come from the Heralds. I was surprised at how plausible it was after going to look at all the death rattles. You are right that I am chasing this theory, but I promise it is more out of my expectations of the author than it is anything else (as much as I do want users to reconsider what they have set in stone by popular vote).

Actually, it would be very significant. I would be clear and inarguable proof that death rattles can at times grant glimpses of the future. We could then look at other quotes describing out-of-context scenes, and try to interpret them as future plot points. A Kaladin interpretation would also help support the theory that the Parshendi are not the true enemies; as the "their" in the second sentence has no subject to refer to other than "friends." It could, obviously, have no subject, but if it has one, "friends" is most likely.

A Herald interpretation, on the other hand, merely implies that old oaths - most likely the Oathpact - ought to be reforged.

I also agree that there must be a pattern to the quotes, but this is precisely why they are so intriguing - it's as though each experience is completely different. There is a pattern, but I don't think we've found it yet. I'd like to draw comparisons between the death rattles and Dalinar's visions. The similarities are striking. there was even one rattle by a man who seems to have experienced the same phenomenon:

Quote

“That chanting, that singing, those rasping voices.”

Kaktach 1173, 16 seconds pre-death. A middle-aged potter. Reported seeing strange dreams during highstorms during the last two years.

I also believe that this quote in particular:

Quote

“Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?”

Is spoken from the perspective of the spren, post-Recreance. It aligns well with the attitude described in the WoR spoilers, and it lends special meaning to the phrase "Shard of my soul."

Edited January 19, 2014 by Wonko the Sane