Theory: The Recreance (Spoilers)

[Aradel]

I thought Soulcasters used full on gems, not spheres? I always thought that Soulcasting demands a lot from it's gems and is not rechargeable (why they have to keep harvesting gems from chasm fiends instead of recharging them during a highstorm). I assumed the gem cracking was showing the point where the gem was completely drained and could no longer be used to Soulcast. Maybe that's when they create spheres?

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure whether they were spheres or actual gems. It seems to be gems can be re-infused but wear or break from overuse. The pieces would be cut into smaller gems, until you end up with small chips that don't hold much stormlight.

[Dros]

3.What changed that Odium can initiate another Desolation now?

"The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing people he didn't exist."

Perhaps the greatest trick Odium ever played was convincing the people of Roshar there would be no more Desolations.

On the back of the book it explains that the "Enemy" may have figured out that by knowing the Desolations were coming and having to defend themselves on a constant basis, he had unwittingly trained and hardened them to resist. Maybe he figures it would be best to let the people of Roshar get weak and then smash them by surprise thinking they would be too sissified to resist after such a long time between Desolations. (Especially after the Heralds AND the Radiants had basically quit.)

Taln said he failed, but it probably wasn't up to him in the first place. I think, more than likely there is no minimum time between Desolations Odium must follow. Odium was in control of the timing all along. The only part of the Oathpact he had to follow was to release the Heralds before a Desolation. He released Taln, the last one honoring the Oathpact.

[Djerf]

The devils on the front lines could be other knights radiants, or if you like “The second most baseless Parshendi theory” it could be a confusion between parshmen and parshendi who both look alike to humans and the KR coming to understand the difference between the two which caused the Recreanse.

If the first one is true it would mean that two or more nations had access to KR and fought each other, this could further enhance the feeling of betrayal towards the KR, other KR being the devils and all that.

If the second it could help explain Jashnas findings which I think is incorrect.

[Windrunner]

So I had a crazy idea today, while wondering about the Radiants. Somewhere I read a theory that the Windrunners and Stonewardens from Dalinar's vision went to Shinovar, and stayed there to found Stone Shamanism. I like this idea, and for the purposes of my idea (at least the second part) I will assume it is accurate.

Now we all know about the Thrill, a feeling of joy in battle, that it is taboo to mention. Many people have speculated that it is tied to Odium and I agree with that. I would like to extend this, and say that since the only people who have felt the Thrill are those with Shardblades, I think that the Thrill is tied to the Shardbades, who have been corrupted by Odium. (The corruption idea is not my own) So my idea is that the Radiants began to feel the Thrill in battle. They recognized the touch of their greatest enemy, and immediately gave up their weapons to avoid being manipulated.

So when the Radiants arrived in Shinovar (this is the part where my own idea hinges on the Radiants in Shinovar idea) they made a pledge to never take up Shardblades, a promise so they could remain pure. This promise to avoid Shardblades became a central part of Shin life. So during unknown events, Szeth ended up with his Shardblade and Surgebinding abilities. The Shin saw him as being a liar, breaking his oath, and thus the name Truthless. What does everyone think?

Edited February 29, 2012 by Windrunner

[hoser]

...

So when the Radiants arrived in Shinovar (this is the part where my own idea hinges on the Radiants in Shinovar idea) they made a pledge to never take up Shardblades, a promise so they could remain pure. This promise to avoid Shardblades became a central part of Shin life. So during unknown events, Szeth ended up with his Shardblade and Surgebinding abilities. The Shin saw him as being a liar, breaking his oath, and thus the name Truthless. What does everyone think?

Yeah, where did the radiants go? Could they be the dawn chanters? Are their descendants chilling in Urithiru? Did they find a way to travel through time to when they would be needed? Hurry up and write, Brandon!

The following quote makes me (and others, not my idea) think that the sword is not what Szeth is being punished for, but rather part of his punishment. Taralongnameian says (paperback p1218 chapter 71) "

... Given that monstrosity of a Shardblade by your people, ...

And Szeth later responds,

"It is my punishment, Szeth said, "To kill, to have no choice, but to bear the sins nonetheless. I am Truthless."

I share your interest in what Szeth did to earn his punishment. I even imagine that it will turn out to be quite honorable, though forbidden by Stone Shamanism. I think the sword is Jezrien's Honorblade and gives Szeth his windrunner abilities.

For completeness of a sort, the Szeth quote that Windrunner has referenced elsewhere (from the Prologue, paperback p13):

... He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn't. His honor demanded that they did.

I interpret this as suggesting that what he is being punished for relates to the existence of the Voidbringers. Somehow he has done something that will help avert or harm the Voidbringers. It was an incredible sin according to Stone Shamanism which denies the existence of the Voidbringers, hence the punishment of bearing the sword and becoming Truthless.

Edited: clarify wording, add prologue quote and interpretation.

Edited March 5, 2012 by hoser

[Inevitable]

Now we all know about the Thrill, a feeling of joy in battle, that it is taboo to mention. Many people have speculated that it is tied to Odium and I agree with that. I would like to extend this, and say that since the only people who have felt the Thrill are those with Shardblades, I think that the Thrill is tied to the Shardbades, who have been corrupted by Odium. (The corruption idea is not my own) So my idea is that the Radiants began to feel the Thrill in battle. They recognized the touch of their greatest enemy, and immediately gave up their weapons to avoid being manipulated.

Though only those with Shardblades appear to feel the "Thrill" you should remember that there are only 4 main, male, characters that the book follows. Szeth is probably too miserable to feel anything but self-pity in battle, and Kaladin is too restrained by his own honour. The other two are the shardblades. When the Thrill is discussed I'm pretty sure it claims that all men feel it, not just shard-wielders. Also, back to Szeth, he has a Shardblade yet feels no Thrill.

As a final point from me, I'm really not fond of this idea that shardblades are somehow derived from Odium. As I understand it, the whole thing is derived from Kaladin and Syl's distaste of them. Remember, though, Kaladin also rejected the shardplate Amaram now has. If the shardblade was the source of his unease, he could have rejected that and still kept the plate. The counter argument would be that Syl focusses on the fact Dalinar gives up the sword at the end of the book, and doesn't mention the plate. At this point, I don't think Dalinar HAS given up the plate, and even then, he's just giving it to his son. It's not really as lost to him as the sword becomes.

There could be any number of simpler reasons why Syl dislikes shards, or Shardblades if you prefer to think there's a distinction. They could be symbolic to her of the Recreance. The betrayal by the Knights Radient, and therefore a loss of honour. Or perhaps the betrayal has been mis-understood by history. In which case, I've argued elsewhere that the Shards may be viewed as very valuable, almost holy items. Potentially they are unique to each shardbearer, or have to be earned in a complex ceremony. Either way, whenever they're used by someone who's not a KR she sees that person as a thief... or dishonourable.

[Dros]

So when the Radiants arrived in Shinovar (this is the part where my own idea hinges on the Radiants in Shinovar idea) they made a pledge to never take up Shardblades, a promise so they could remain pure. This promise to avoid Shardblades became a central part of Shin life. So during unknown events, Szeth ended up with his Shardblade and Surgebinding abilities. The Shin saw him as being a liar, breaking his oath, and thus the name Truthless. What does everyone think?

In one of Dalinar's visions he is invited to train with the Radiants in Urithiru. The Knight specifically mentions that fighting, whether against voidish creatures or other men, changes a man. The Knight said the Radiants could teach him how to protect himself from this effect. So I think the Radiants were already aware of the danger of what killing and battle can do to a man. However, you might be right that they finally figured out Odium's influence was much larger than they originally thought

-or-

...maybe they found out the Heralds had lied to them and abandoned them? (Just thought of that one.)

[hoser]

...maybe they found out the Heralds had lied to them and abandoned them? (Just thought of that one.)

Excellent! Upvoted. A new theory, I will add it to the OP. Thanks.

[Zas678]

That's a good idea.... But that's not it. Sorry.

Green Hoodie Mistborn's Report

QUESTION

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

[Dros]

Oh well, it was quite a simple thought, I shouldn't be surprised someone had thought of it before.

As for Szeth and his Shardblade: he obviously hates the thing and thinks of it as evil. IIRC at one point he says, "Ten heartbets, come to me, you creation of Damnation." I'm starting to think there is definitely something terribly wrong or broken with the Shardblades and it's probably connected to the Recreance in some way.

[lyssie95]

I take issue with the "thrill comes from shardplate" theory. Kid-kal feels the thrill when he is fighting with a quarterstaff.

However, I do like the idea that the KR stopped because they were being used for menial wars. No book backup, but it seems logical that they were tired of fighting without meaning, though that brings up the question of why they didn't take blade and plate with them. Maybe they didn't want to leave them defenseless?

[Connerjade]

Also Sadeas is specifically noted as feeling it when he was without a blade.

“And the Thrill, Dalinar. Do you still feel the Thrill?”

Maybe it is coming through the plate as well, but it seems as though it is the blades that are tainted. Syl responds to the blades, not the plate. The shardbearers in Dalinar's vision drop the blades first (though that could very well just be because it is easier to undress with 2 hands).

I am inclined to think that the radiants left because someone saw the order degenerating even further had they stayed. Perhaps they move from menial wars to taking power themselves and wished to prevent that by giving up their power while they were still clearheaded enough to do so.

[Odium's_Shard]

Still clearheaded enough to give up their precious power, of which could destroy the known world and lead to oppression and communism for all, to warriors of the lowest rank, presumably who had no idea what to do with a gold nugget, save a Shardblade, if they were to find one? They'd, of course, immediately sell it to the highest, most corrupt bidder. Or hack at anyone who comes near them to take it. Eventually they would never be distributed to the general populace, but hoarded with the richest/most powerful people.

Who don't deserve the power of the Shards. As we can see in the Alethi war machine.

[Aiken Frost]

Oh well, it was quite a simple thought, I shouldn't be surprised someone had thought of it before.

As for Szeth and his Shardblade: he obviously hates the thing and thinks of it as evil. IIRC at one point he says, "Ten heartbets, come to me, you creation of Damnation." I'm starting to think there is definitely something terribly wrong or broken with the Shardblades and it's probably connected to the Recreance in some way.

Also Sadeas is specifically noted as feeling it when he was without a blade.

Maybe it is coming through the plate as well, but it seems as though it is the blades that are tainted. Syl responds to the blades, not the plate. The shardbearers in Dalinar's vision drop the blades first (though that could very well just be because it is easier to undress with 2 hands).

I am inclined to think that the radiants left because someone saw the order degenerating even further had they stayed. Perhaps they move from menial wars to taking power themselves and wished to prevent that by giving up their power while they were still clearheaded enough to do so.

Speaking of which... Something curious just occurred me right now. Why shardblade disappear when a holder release it, but not when it is stuck in stone? Keep in mind: stone is sacred to the Shin. Maybe there is something related to this?

[lyssie95]

Not sure the stone specifically has anything to do with it. Dalinar/other bearers seemed to have the impression that it would stay if you wanted it to, though I suppose it could be something they don't understand.

[Odium's_Shard]

Not sure the stone specifically has anything to do with it. Dalinar/other bearers seemed to have the impression that it would stay if you wanted it to, though I suppose it could be something they don't understand.

This is quoted somewhere by Dalinar in-world. Have to look it up later.

But if it was always released back to the Spirit Plane every time you released it, however do you give your Shards to other people, as Dalinar often says he wants to for Renalin.

[lyssie95]

This is quoted somewhere by Dalinar in-world. Have to look it up later.

But if it was always released back to the Spirit Plane every time you released it, however do you give your Shards to other people, as Dalinar often says he wants to for Renarin.

Got it

He shoved his Shardblade into the rock beside him, placing it intentionally so that it didn't vanish.

Paperback 972

Yeah, this one mentions rock again, but I'm fairly certain that it is just a handy pedestal. If you place if purposefully/will it to stay there, it won't go into the spirit realm.

All you have to do to give it to someone else is not drop it on accident.

Edited March 7, 2012 by lyssie95

[Connerjade]

Still clearheaded enough to give up their precious power, of which could destroy the known world and lead to oppression and communism for all, to warriors of the lowest rank, presumably who had no idea what to do with a gold nugget, save a Shardblade, if they were to find one? They'd, of course, immediately sell it to the highest, most corrupt bidder. Or hack at anyone who comes near them to take it. Eventually they would never be distributed to the general populace, but hoarded with the richest/most powerful people.

Who don't deserve the power of the Shards. As we can see in the Alethi war machine.

Yes, those they gave it to are horrible in using it, however, if they degenerated to be as bad as the current Alethi imagine the horror if they were still surgebinders as well.

Overall, the Alethkar is unpleasant, but not really horrifying. Perhaps this was the lesser of two evils.

[Triasmus]

Well... they could have have told everybody that they were going to go and dump all the shards in the ocean .

[Odium's_Shard]

Maybe they did. That would account for the lack of Shards according to Dalinar's estimate during his vision, and the general secrecy of the people in that Great Lake or whatever it's called. It could also explain the reason those people who were looking for Hoid were all the way over there for anyway.

@lyssie95 Thanks for that catch!

@Connerjade Yes it makes more sense if you dub it 'the lesser of two evils', but as a 'clever' decision it isn't all too great.

[lyssie95]

I think I mentioned this is my first post, but I didn't have the theory fleshed out yet, so here goes:

The KR were being used for menial wars, killing pointlessly. I figure they adopted a "just in case" attitude- they were fairly certain the desolations were over because the heralds had told them as such, but they stayed a unit for a few years** anyway. Eventually, they got tired of it. They knew their honor would not allow them to continue useless slaughter, but at the same time it wouldn't allow them to completely abandon the people they once strove to protect.

I will protect those who cannot protect themselves

(this is the quote right? No time to look up)

They could not allow themselves to stoop to the level of ordinary men, so they decided to leave them the tools to defend themselves instead.

The KR probably knew that the men would slaughter each other with the Shardplate/blade, but these men were so lacking in honor that they would have done that eventually anyway.

**unspecfified amount of time

Still needs a bit of work, but...

[Odium's_Shard]

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves."

They clearly just reversed the statement, instead of invalidating it. They (attempted to) give the men the ability to the defend themselves, dis-obligating them from their duty as KR, due to not being necessary to fulfill their ideals. Need to know the other ideals to back this up, so, yes, lyssie, we'll flesh it up later.

[Aeshdan]

He's right. A Shardblade stays if you will it to stay.

[Aradel]

I believe it was stated that the blade stays if the bearer deliberately wills it to stay. I think the quote is in the Dalinar vs Chasmfiend battle.

[Dros]

It would follow then that the blade itself is tied to one's cognitive aspect(would that be the right word for it?). So a tainted mind might taint the blade, not the other way around. Just throwing that out there.