"I was only as dead as your oaths, Shallan"

[+robardin]

Oops, I meant "Kaladin"! ... Or did I?

For that was what Syl said to Kaladin after he revived her in deciding to defend the unconscious Elhokar from two Shardbearers, despite having no powers himself at the time - thus embodying the Second and importantly, also the Third Ideals of the Windrunners.

So at the end of Rhythm of War, after we learn the truth about the deadspren (that they willingly sacrificed their bonds along with their Radiants in the Recreance, albeit without knowing that "deadeye" spren would be the result - and that it's linked to the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram and the zombification of the parsh), and even after Shallan has seen her first cryptic in "Testament" in Shadesmar...

...how come Testament hasn't revived the way that Syl did, after she has now remembered her act of rejection and (apparently) recanted or regretted doing it?

The obvious answer is: she is only as dead as Shallan's oaths. Or in the case of Shallan as a Lightweaver, her Truths.

Shallan is still lying to herself, suppressing recalling whatever she told Testament as at least one of her Truths, for she said at least two of them to count for the Second and Third Ideals to be able to summon a Testamentblade.

I think it must be only one of the two Truths, because she was, after all, still able to summon Testament as a Blade, had her Memory "perk" working, and even to do some light Lightweaving and Soulcasting after "killing" her yet before bonding Pattern on the Wind's Pleasure shortly before it was sunk in the attempted murder of Jasnah: her bond to Testament was not as dead as Kaladin's to Syl was, where he couldn't even do spear forms well any more.

But if the bond was not "as" broken as Kaladin's was to Syl, that would imply it should be easier to revive, right? (The difficultly being that Shallan is a red-headed cuckoo-bananas nutcase?)

Edited April 11, 2022 by robardin

[Olmund]

Interesting insight. I suppose that lines up with the theory some others have floated -- that Shallan knew (to some extent) that her mother was a herald, and she suppressed that understanding because it meant she killed a religious figure (in addition to killing her own mother).

It would be a little repetitive (since the Veil impetus and resolution was somewhat similar), but her Radiant persona could have that knowledge tucked up inside (she was the persona who killed Ialai for the greater good -- just as her mother decided to kill Shallan for the greater good). So reviving Testament could involve admitting that her mother was a Herald. Here's how I could see the timeline of events working out:

-Shallan first bonds testament, speaks some simple truth based on her experience as a child of a fraught household (e.g., "my parents do not love each other anymore"). She gains the ability to speak with testament and lightweave.

-Some time later, Shallan spies on her mother speaking with the skybreaker acolyte, who calls her by her heraldic name/title. Despite her youth, she recognizes and whispers the truth (e.g., "I am a daughter of a Herald of the almighty.") This causes her to burst alight with stormlight, which forces her out of hiding.

-Shallan's mother, influenced by a newly spoken radiant "oath," is at first overjoyed by discovering that her daughter is on the radiant path. As moments pass, however, her heraldic madness returns, and she decides she must sacrifice Shallan for the greater good (likely also spurred on by the skybreaker acolyte). Witnessing her mother's fluctuating personality and her decision to kill Shallan causes Shallan deep emotional trauma (and likely plants the seeds for her own multiple personality disorder later on).

-Shallan's father bursts into the room just before his wife kills Shallan, and he tries to intervene. The skybreaker acolyte pins him to the ground, and Chanarach moves in to kill Shallan. Frightened, Shallan summons the Testament blade straight into her mother's heart, killing her instantly. Chanarach slumps to the ground.

-The Skybreaker acolyte leaps toward the fallen herald, then attacks Shallan after confirming Chanarach's death. Despite Shallan's inexperience, the man is no match for her shardblade. 

-Lin Davar recovers, places his wife's glowing "soul" in an aluminum safe per Chanarach's prior request (provided that theory is correct) alongside his daughter's shardblade. He sings her a lullaby and carries her to her bedchamber, then disposes of the bodies.

-Shallan later goes to the garden, screams at Testament, and seeks to break her radiant bond. Either Shallan discovers it herself by chance, or perhaps Testament realizes the pain that Shallan's bond is causing her, and willingly reveals the way Shallan can end her bond and seal her guilt: by abandoning her personal truth (e.g., she tells Shallan "Your pain will go away if you keep saying this over and over until you believe it: 'My mother was a normal person. Neither she nor I was ever special.'"). At any rate, Shallan abandons the truth that her mother was a herald, thus breaking the majority of her bond with Testament and transforming her into a deadeye.

[crème de la crèmling]

I have so many thoughts regarding Shallan and her oaths, and I am starting to wonder if she was reclaiming a Truth to Testament at the beginning of TWoK. I'll condense it down as hard as I can. First, I very quickly want to address that, in-world, none of the characters seem to believe that Syl died or became a deadeye. For them, this is the obvious answer. It's briefly brought up in Adolin's trial in RoW.

Quote

"Kaladin Stormblessed almost killed his spren too," a completely different honorspren said. "The Ancient Daughter, most precious of children. Did you know that?"

Adolin ground his teeth. "I do know what happened between Kaladin and Syl. It was a difficult time for all of us, a point of transition. Kaladin didn't know he was breaking his oaths--he was merely having a difficult time navigating conflicting loyalties."

RoW Chapter 90: One Chance

I personally think this is part of the "deadeyes can't be cured" in-world belief, because if Syl had died, she would not be very much alive currently, and they need some way to explain away that impossibility. But in the quote you bring up from Syl seems very much like she believed she was dead at the time. 

Onto Shallan. Something that has stuck out to me for a while, and that's the fact that she doesn't use her Memory power in any of her flashbacks on the page. She draws constantly, however, and loses time while she does so. What she does do in her flashbacks is intermittently make things glow, and I believe she may have used Stormlight to heal head trauma that she took in the fight with her father. (He throws her to the ground and she is temporarily blinded; then her vision suddenly clears. Once Lin is subdued and they discover the Soulcaster, one of the gemstones is cracked and the glow is gone. I think they assume it was cracked in the swordfight, but to me it's very like Jasnah cracking the gemstone to fuel her Soulcasting.) 

As you say, this contrasts to Kaladin, who lost all of his powers when he went against his oaths, and there wasn't a gradation to their return like Shallan seems to show. This could be because it's an entirely different behavior, because Kaladin hadn't earned his Shardblade yet, or maybe honorspren are more all or nothing than Cryptics, who seem to allow more of a sliding scale. Lots of interpretations here. I tend to go with the sliding scale; all the evidence I have seems to point to the idea that Cryptics are much more permissive with what a Truth is supposed to be, whereas Syl has been pretty strict in her expectations for Kaladin's behavior.

Going back to the idea that Shallan's powers, as granted by Testament, return as she reclaims the spirit of her Truths: well, I think it's interesting that Shallan is able to even think about her Shardblade when she's in Kharbranth. I think it's interesting that she can use her Memories and totally separate her ability to use it from where she got that power. But I also think that by chasing after Jasnah and pursuing her ridiculous Soulcaster heist, she is fulfilling what I think is a candidate for an easy childhood Truth: Shallan wants adventure. She wants to soar, learn, and discover things. She's attracted to danger, secrets, and intrigue. 

This point is hammered over and over again. Think of Shallan hopping overboard to see the santhid; Shallan, mesmerized by the chasmfiend; Shallan, infiltrating the Sons of Honor and stringing along the Ghostbloods. It tracks pretty closely with The Girl Who Looked Up. One of the things she tells Pattern early on when he asks her is that her purpose is to seek truth. There's really no madcap scheme Shallan isn't 100% on board with, especially in pursuit of knowledge. To me, what Shallan says when she recants her oaths, "I am finished!", it kind of sounds to me like she could be done with going on adventures or making discoveries or something along those lines. 

And I think this is because Shallan's longing for adventure and discovery ends up having serious, traumatic consequences for her. I generally think Shallan's story contrasts with Kaladin's because while his problems mostly stem from failure (because he couldn't do something), Shallan's mostly stem from transgression (because she did do something). Just prior to her mother's death, Shallan remembers feeling very grown up, and then suddenly realizing she was still a child. This situation is her fault, according to her, because she wanted to make grand discoveries, because she bonded a Cryptic, because she dared to do those things. Think of her idea of wit and humor; she goes too far all the time. As far as she's concerned, her choices resulted in her mother's death and the absolute destruction of her family's chances at happiness. Her childish desire for adventure "ended the world" and made her into a monster. 

But in TWoK, in the present timeline, where she has access to her Resonance, and where she can Soulcast, kinda, I think it's because she's figured out a way to rationalize going on the adventure: it's in service to her family, right? And in RoW, when she begins to question the validity of that rationale, that's when Testament is reintroduced. The aspects of Veil that merge with her are those aspects connected with a desire for espionage and intrigue. The reason I connect this is because these are all very brave things to do, and I like the way it plays with the Truth Shallan ends up giving to the whispery voice in Kharbranth, I'm terrified. And at the end of RoW, Testament looks a little better, after Shallan faces down that particular Truth. There's something going on there. 

So following my logic there, what's left is either that third Ideal (second Truth if that's how you keep score) or the first. Radiant has always been associated with wielding the Shardblade, and doing the arduous, thankless tasks in general. When I see Shallan using even a hint of her powers in her flashbacks, it seems like it's when she decides to do that she doesn't really want to do, but must. The adventure is fun and exciting, but you also need to deal with the difficult consequences ... and Shallan isn't particularly great at doing that head-on. She either shuts it down completely, or hides from it.

I think that this is the next big step for Shallan's healing process. Think of the other Truth she admitted to the whispery voice (who is probably Testament): I am a murderer. When Radiant kills Ialai, it's explicitly so that Shallan doesn't have to do it and deal with the moral and emotional consequence of killing someone else. It's like Radiant is protecting Shallan from that particular Truth, now. Shallan comes to grips with that murder, but that's very different from actually dealing with her parents' deaths emotionally, which she has admitted but not examined. Her previous conclusions have been proven wrong, but to her, in the moment, they were the most truth she was able to handle. Finding out the truth about the circumstances of her mother's death is probably next on the list.

And then of course, she's never said the Words on the page, and I really want her to!

Edited April 12, 2022 by crème de la crèmling
Cut part of a sentence that didn't make sense in context.

[Treamayne]

 

10 hours ago, robardin said:

I think it must be only one of the two Truths, because she was, after all, still able to summon Testament as a Blade, had her Memory "perk" working, and even to do some light Lightweaving and Soulcasting after "killing" her yet before bonding Pattern on the Wind's Pleasure shortly before it was sunk in the attempted murder of Jasnah: her bond to Testament was not as dead as Kaladin's to Syl was, where he couldn't even do spear forms well any more.

But if the bond was not "as" broken as Kaladin's was to Syl, that would imply it should be easier to revive, right? (The difficultly being that Shallan is a red-headed cuckoo-bananas nutcase?)

2 hours ago, crème de la crèmling said:

I personally think this is part of the "deadeyes can't be cured" in-world belief, because if Syl had died, she would not be very much alive currently, and they need some way to explain away that impossibility. But in the quote you bring up from Syl seems very much like she believed she was dead at the time. 

I think you are missing one fundamental difference between the situation with Kaladin/Syl and Shallan/Testament. Kal wasn't a windrunner of the thrid oath. . .

A deadeye is the CR fragment of a spren whose oath is broken and whose form is still a shardblade on the physical realm. Shallan still has the blade bonded, though her oaths were broken and Testamant became a deadeye. Syl mearly regressed to earlier levels of memory/intellect (first acting as she had when Kal only had the first oath, then acting as she had when he was in the slaver carts, before the first oath) until she finally could not remain in the physical realm at all. Otherwise, how would she have had the presense of mind to argue with Stormfather when Kal tries to redeem his oaths (but before they are restored). 

Spoiler

Quote

WoR Ch 84

Kaladin moved one foot back, touching his heel to the king, forming a battle stance. Then raised his hand before him, knife out. His hand shook like a roof rattling from thunder. He met Moash’s eyes.

Strength before weakness.

“You. Will. Not. Have. Him.”

“Finish this, Moash,” Graves said.

“Storms,” Moash said. “There’s no need. Look at him. He can’t fight back.”

Kaladin felt exhausted. At least he’d stood up.

It was the end. The journey had come and gone.

Shouting. Kaladin heard it now, as if it were closer.

He is mine! a feminine voice said. I claim him.

HE BETRAYED HIS OATH.

“He has seen too much,” Graves said to Moash. “If he lives this day, he’ll betray us. You know my words are true, Moash. Kill him.”

The knife slipped from Kaladin’s fingers, clanging to the ground. He was too weak to hold it. His arm flopped back to his side, and he stared down at the knife, dazed.

I don’t care.

HE WILL KILL YOU.

“I’m sorry, Kal,” Moash said, stepping forward. “I should have made it quick at the start.”

The Words, Kaladin. That was Syl’s voice. You have to speak the Words!

I FORBID THIS.

YOUR WILL MATTERS NOT! Syl shouted. YOU CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE SPEAKS THE WORDS! THE WORDS, KALADIN! SAY THEM!

“I will protect even those I hate,” Kaladin whispered through bloody lips. “So long as it is right.”

A Shardblade appeared in Moash’s hands.

A distant rumbling. Thunder.

THE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED, the Stormfather said reluctantly.

 

So, Testament is a deadeye because the oaths were broken after the Third Oath and was already a shardblade. Thier bond was already too stong to survive the separation. 

Syl was never a deadeye, likely because of a combination of how "slowly" their bond was strained and the fact that kal was not yet third oath and so her form could not be trapped in the physical as a Shardblade. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[crème de la crèmling]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I think you are missing one fundamental difference between the situation with Kaladin/Syl and Shallan/Testament. Kal wasn't a windrunner of the thrid oath. . .

 

My argument to this is that I think that you can deadeye a spren even if you haven't hit Ideal 3 yet. My reasoning is that the spren lost huge portions of their population to the Recreance, and I believe this has to include all bonded spren, even those of Ideal 1 or 2. Pattern says of the Cryptics there are none left who remember the bond; the honorspren were basically wiped out, with the sole exception of Syl. The Stormfather had to make new honorspren himself. If there was a special case for Radiant spren who had bonded but hadn't reached Ideal 3, I think it would be reasonable to say that it would be known, because at the time of the Recreance, it seems unlikely that all spren were bonded to Radiants of Ideal 3 or above. Maybe most, but all of them? The Recreance must have caught some people at the beginning of the journey. Instead, the Recreance is shrouded in mystery. Only the highspren have cultural memory that goes back before that time. 

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Otherwise, how would she have had the presense of mind to argue with Stormfather when Kal tries to redeem his oaths (but before they are restored). 

Testament (if that's her) had the presence of mind to accept two Truths from Shallan in TWoK, as well--suggesting that if the Radiant is close to re-swearing an oath, that presence of mind can return to them, whether or not they are revived. 

[RedBlue]

8 hours ago, crème de la crèmling said:

Testament (if that's her) had the presence of mind to accept two Truths from Shallan in TWoK, as well--suggesting that if the Radiant is close to re-swearing an oath, that presence of mind can return to them, whether or not they are revived. 

To add to this - Maya has a history of having a moment of clarity when it’s really urgent. Oathbringer has enough presence of mind to become less screamy after Dalinar does the right thing. 

I think deadeye spren, including the ones whose original Radiants are long gone, can be at least somewhat lucid for a brief period if it’s important and they have some form of bond with a person who is behaving in an oath-like way.

[Returned]

There was also a quote about restoring the spren killed during the Recreance in WoR:

Quote

"[...] We have tried to restore them. It does not work. Mmmm. Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done..." (WoR, chapter 75)

It has a bit of extra importance because this is Pattern speaking, and he already knows about Testament. I've undervalued this section in the past, but this thread has made it seem much more important to me. We have a maybe analogous situation with Syl and Kaladin (it's not clear she was dead in the same way that spren involved in the Recreance were). But Testament's knight still lives, and Adolin and Maya have shown that rehabilitation of deadeyes is possible.

I wonder what it would mean to have two bonded spren, especially for a Lightweaver since their oaths could be different for each.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Returned

[Treamayne]

Good points all around, and something to consider. I'm not sure that what happened in TWoK was "truths" being accepted as oaths, since the words were not "accepted." But, that also comes down to how, and by whom, words must be accepted. It seems to vary, probably by order. We do know that:

- Bondsmiths: the words are accepted by the Bondsmith's "spren" since Stormfather accepted Dalinar's words and the Sibling accepted Navani's.

- Willshapers: Unclear, as Stormfather accepted Eshonai's first Oath, but a "famalen voice" (possibly Cultivation/Nightwatcher) rejected Venli's second Oath the first time, then accepted it later in RoW. 

- Edgedancer: It's unclear in the Interlude if Lift is just remembering her second Oath, or if that actually when she said it. Same with Edgedancer, where she "said the words in her heart" - so neither time do we hear the words accepted; but this could also be because Lift is such a special case. 

 

It also seems that the "voice" accepting the words can only be heard by the Knight saying them.

- Windrunners: It seems Stormfather must accept the words. (Though maybe he has taken over this duty from Honor)

- Kaladin hears his third oath be accepted, but in TWoKs we see the words accepted by Stormfather (as indicated by the crack of thunder) through Teft's viepoint and he did not hear the "voice" (TWoK Ch 67)

- In Dawnshard, Lopen sees Huio's third Oath be accepted, but also does not hear the "Voice," but from Lopen's viewpoint he does hear the voice when his Second and Third Oaths are accepted. 

 

So, it comes down to Lightweavers - AFAIK the words were not "accepted" in any scene; unless in TWoK Ch 45, when Shallan hears "This is true" is an indication that only the Spren has to accept the "Oath" from a Lightweaver. this seems in line with Skybreakers:

- When Szeth swears his third Oath (OB Ch 121), snow crystalized in the air and he felt acceptance (possibly from the HighSpren), but didn't hear a "Voice."

Edited April 12, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG and Format

[+robardin]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think you are missing one fundamental difference between the situation with Kaladin/Syl and Shallan/Testament. Kal wasn't a windrunner of the thrid oath. . .

A deadeye is the CR fragment of a spren whose oath is broken and whose form is still a shardblade on the physical realm. Shallan still has the blade bonded, though her oaths were broken and Testamant became a deadeye. Syl mearly regressed to earlier levels of memory/intellect (first acting as she had when Kal only had the first oath, then acting as she had when he was in the slaver carts, before the first oath) until she finally could not remain in the physical realm at all. Otherwise, how would she have had the presense of mind to argue with Stormfather when Kal tries to redeem his oaths (but before they are restored). 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So, Testament is a deadeye because the oaths were broken after the Third Oath and was already a shardblade. Thier bond was already too stong to survive the separation. 

Syl was never a deadeye, likely because of a combination of how "slowly" their bond was strained and the fact that kal was not yet third oath and so her form could not be trapped in the physical as a Shardblade. 

First, Syl was definitely “dead” or “killed”, by her own description and the Stormfather’s, both of who are in a position to recognize when a spren is “dead” that way…

Second, while it’s true that the Shardblades wielded by people on Roshar are “locked in” Blade forms of dead Recreance generation spren of 3+ Ideal Radiants who discarded their Shards as seen by Dalinar in the Honorvision at Feverstone Keep, Testament was never “dead” in the same way, as Shallan was fully able to summon and dismiss her Shardblade (Testament) before saying any Truths to Pattern.

Otherwise, that “strongbox” wherein Shallan’s father locked away the child-sized Blade she manifested would have contained that “deadspren” Blade, same as any other, but Shallan mentions that it “burst to mist” instead. (Note: this is what she remembers, or thinks she remembers, so that too could be a lie… Like, maybe there really WAS a “Shardknife” in that lock box all those years, until Shallan saw fit to summon Testament as a Blade against Tyn?)

So it seems that Syl was more truly “dead” - not incorporated as a Blade because Kaladin was not yet of the Third Ideal - but that Shallan’s spren Testament was never as dead as Syl was. The bond to Shallan was still there, at a low level, in a way that Syl’s bond with Kaladin was not. And thus presumably still is there, at the end of RoW.

It could also work that taking a second Cryptic in a Nahel bond “on top” of that earlier one has a weird effect, too. We will just have to find out.

But my suspicion is that Shallan has more to remember about what Truth(s) were told to Testament originally, in order to fully revive that spren bond.

We used to count Shallan’s Lightweaver “Truths” as being “I killed my father” (said in Kharbranth, in order to demonstrate to Jasnah that she could enter Shadesmar) and “I killed my mother” (said in Urithiru after confronting Mraize there), and wondering how she could have Soulcast that goblet to blood, or summoned a Blade, before Urithiru; but now we know that the spren that talked to her in Kharbranth was Testament.

Quote

Creatures, she said in her head. Can you hear me?

Yes, always, a whisper came in response. Though she’d hoped to hear it, she still jumped.

Can you return me to that place? she asked.

You need to tell me something true, it replied. The more true, the stronger our bond.

Jasnah is using a fake Soulcaster, Shallan thought. I’m sure that’s a truth.

That’s not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you. Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond. Tell me. Tell me. What are you?

“What am I?” Shallan whispered. “Truthfully?” It was a day for confrontation. She felt strangely strong, steady. Time to speak it. “I’m a murderer. I killed my father.”

Ah, the voice whispered. A powerful truth indeed. …

That murder happened long after she’d disavowed (and “killed”) Testament, so it couldn’t have been one of her original Truths to that spren; yet even telling Testament a NEW Truth didn’t revive the bond!

So counting what Truths count towards which Nahel bond of hers and with what outcome gets crazier and crazier, as well as muddying what Shallan is supposed to do to revive Testament when it was relatively straightforward for Syl (whose last words to Kaladin before “dying”, short of screaming as he got one last gasp of Stormlight, were, “You must speak the Words… Find them.”)

[Treamayne]

On 4/12/2022 at 9:55 AM, robardin said:

First, Syl was definitely “dead” or “killed”, by her own description and the Stormfather’s, both of who are in a position to recognize when a spren is “dead” that way

I'm sorry I was unclear. I did not mean to say Syl wasn't dead - I just don't think she was a Deadeye. I'll search after work when I have time, but I recall a quote (novel or WoB - not sure which) about death for Spren not being a "state" but more of a "range."

I'll edit this when i find it. . .

[EDIT]

I beleive these are at least partially what I was remembering, I'll check teh books next for the "range of death" reference i seem to recall. . .

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

To the spren, is becoming mindless the same as death?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They consider it as such.

 

Quote

Questioner

Can spren die?

Brandon Sanderson

Spren can die but they are energy which cannot be destroyed. So dying means something different to them than it means to us.

 

Quote

 

Greg Andrew

Did Radiants who broke their oaths prior to the Recreance also result in deadeye spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

 

 

 

 

Quote

Coppermind Spren

Spren do not need to sleep,^[23] but they can die.^[24] Spren with a Nahel Bond can die if their bonded Surgebinder breaks their Oaths to an untenable degree. However, there are stages to spren death, and it's not necessarily one-way. If the Radiant who broke their Oaths is not yet at the point where they would acquire a Shardblade, the spren simply seems to disappear.^[25] Such a spren can be brought back to life if the Radiant returns to abiding by the Oaths, and re-swears them. It's possible that swearing the next level of the Ideals is a necessary part of the process.^[26]

By contrast, a spren that has been killed after their Radiant acquires a Shardblade leaves behind a dead Shardblade, and while in Shadesmar, they take the form of a deadeye.^[27][28] A deadeye is a zombie-like figure with scratched-out eyes, constantly striving to mindlessly reach the location of its Blade.^[28] Deadeye spren can be at least partially revived.^[29] Mayalaran, Adolin's deadeye Shardblade, regains consciousness during Adolin's trial by witness in Lasting Integrity while under extreme emotional stress.^[29]

----

Coppermind Deadeye

A spren becomes a deadeye when the Surgebinder they've been bonded to breaks their Oaths.^[1] It requires the Surgebinder to have previously sworn a sufficient number of them for the spren to manifest as a Shardblade -- if the breaking happens earlier, the spren appears to simply vanish. Regardless, the process causes the spren significant pain.^[6]

Abandoning the Oaths breaks something in the Spiritual aspect of the spren.^[7] Even broken, however, the Oaths continue to affect it, locking it in the form of a Shardblade and preventing it from returning back to the world.^[8]

 

[Edit too]

I found some of the book quotes, but not the one I was thinking of (maybe I imagined it)

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

WoR (Ch 68-69)

The carpenter grabbed a lever on the side of the bridge contraption.

“The carpenter, Adolin!” Kaladin screamed. “Stop that man!”

Dalinar still stood on the bridge. The highprince had been distracted by something else. What? Kaladin realized he had heard something too. Horns, the call that the enemy had been spotted.

It happened all in an instant. Dalinar turning toward the horns. The carpenter pulling the lever, Adolin in his glimmering Shardplate reaching Dalinar.

The bridge lurched.

Then it collapsed.

As the bridge fell out from beneath him, Kaladin reached for Stormlight.

Nothing.

Panic surged through him. His stomach dropped and he tumbled into the air.

The fall into the darkness of the chasm was a brief moment, but also an eternity. He caught a glimpse of Shallan and several men in blue uniforms falling and flailing in terror.

Like a drowning man struggling toward the surface, Kaladin thrashed for the Stormlight. He would not die this way! The sky was his! The winds were his. The chasms were his.

He would not!

Syl screamed, a terrified, painful sound that vibrated Kaladin’s very bones. In that moment, he got a breath of Stormlight, life itself.

He crashed into the ground at the bottom of the chasm and all went black.

Swimming through pain.

The pain washed over him, a liquid, but did not get inside. His skin kept it out.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? The distant voice sounded like rumbling thunder.

Kaladin gasped and opened his eyes, and the pain crawled inside. Suddenly, his entire body hurt.

He lay on his back, staring upward at a streak of light in the air. Syl? No . . . no, that was sunlight. The opening at the top of the chasm, high above him. This far out onto the Shattered Plains, the chasms here were hundreds of feet deep.

Kaladin groaned and sat up. That strip of light seemed impossibly distant. He’d been swallowed by the darkness, and the chasm nearby was shadowed, obscure. He put a hand to his head.

I got some Stormlight right at the end, he thought. I survived. But that scream! It haunted him, echoing in his mind. It had sounded too much like the scream he’d heard when touching the duelist’s Shardblade in the arena.

 

Quote

 

Ch 86

Kaladin extended his hand to the side, and Syl formed into the Blade immediately.

“Not ten heartbeats?” he asked.

Not when I’m here with you, ready. The delay is primarily something of the dead. They need to be revived each time.

Kaladin burst out of the clouds and into sunlight.

 

Quote

 

OB 95
“Where did you live?” he asked Syl, still carrying his pack, hiking along the seemingly infinite peninsula. “When you were young, on this side?”

“It was far to the west,” she said. “A grand city, ruled by honorspren! I didn’t like it though. I wanted to travel, but Father kept me in the city, especially after … you know…”

“I’m not actually sure that I do.”

“I bonded a Knight Radiant. Haven’t I told you of him? I remember…” She closed her eyes as she walked, chin up, as if basking in a wind he could not feel. “I bonded him soon after I was born. He was an elderly man, kindly, but he did fight. In one battle. And he died.…”

She blinked open her eyes. “That was a long time ago.”

“I’m sorry.”

“It’s all right. I wasn’t ready though for the bond. Spren normally weather the death of their Radiant, but I … I lost myself when I lost him. It all turned out to be morbidly fortuitous, because soon after, the Recreance happened. Men forsook their oaths, which killed my siblings. I survived, for I didn’t have a bond then.”

“And the Stormfather locked you away?”

“Father assumed I’d been killed with the others. He found me, asleep, after what must have been … wow, a thousand years on your side. He woke me and took me home.” She shrugged. “After that, he wouldn’t let me leave the city.” She took Kaladin by the arm. “He was foolish, as were the other honorspren born after the Recreance. They knew something bad was coming, but wouldn’t do anything. And I heard you calling, even from so far away.…”

“The Stormfather let you out?” Kaladin said, stunned by the confessions. This was more than he’d found out about her since … since forever.

“I snuck away,” she said with a grin.

 

Quote

 

OB Ch 101

Captain Ico walked over. “We’ll soon arrive. Let’s go get your deadeye.”

Adolin nodded, patting Shallan on the back, and followed Ico down to the brig, a small room far aft in the cargo hold. Ico used keys to unlock the door, revealing the spren of Adolin’s sword sitting on a bench inside. She looked at him with those haunting scratched-out eyes, her string face void of emotion.

“I wish you hadn’t locked her in here,” Adolin said, stooping down to peer through the squat doorway.

“Can’t have them on deck,” Ico said. “They don’t watch where they’re walking and fall off. I’m not going to spend days trying to fish out a lost deadeye.”

She moved to join Adolin, then Ico reached over to shut the cell.

“Wait!” Adolin said. “Ico, I saw something moving back there.”

Ico locked the door and hung the keys on his belt. “My father.”

“Your father?” Adolin said. “You keep your father locked up?”

“Can’t stand the thought of him wandering around somewhere,” Ico said, eyes forward. “Have to keep him locked away though. He’ll go searching for the human carrying his corpse, otherwise. Walk right off the deck.”

 

Quote

 

OB Ch 108

Notum shook his head, then looked away, off into the distance. “I cannot answer. You should not have bonded Sylphrena, either way. She is too precious to the Stormfather.”

“Regardless,” Kaladin said, “you’re about half a year too late. So you might as well accept it.”

“Not too late. Killing you would free her—though it would be painful for her. There are other ways, at least until the Final Ideal is sworn.”

 

 

 

 

 

However, looking this up made me realize something. . .

  I have a new hypothesis to put forward. Not only is there something abnormal going on with the Shallan/Testamant "spren death due to oathbreaking," but the Kal/Syl situation was also abnormal. I now don't think Syl was really dead or a Deadeye, I think the Stormfather was exagerating due to his not liking that Syl had formed a new Nahel bond. 

  If you look at the section I quoted (above) from WoR Ch 68-69, you'lll notice that whatever happened to Syl wasn't due to breaking oaths. Or, at least the bond was not broken that way. She was obviously regressing due to Kaladin's indecision. However, when the bond "snapped," Kaladin was fulfilling oaths. He was trying to protect Dalinar. However, when the bridge collapsed and he fell, he reached for stormlight, for power. He reached too far for what the current state of his bond could support.

  I think this is kind of like when Dalinar reached for his bond with Stormfather to get through the Oathgate when his memory was returning and he panicked. Dalinar reached for power (because he doesn't have a Sword as a bondsmith) and injured Stormfather in the process. I think Kaladin did something similar, and hurt Syl because his bond was so much weaker. 

  But, the key point I am trying to make is this: he hadn't broken any oaths (even if he was heading down the road to do so) and was in fact trying to fulfill them when the bond snapped.

  Maybe somebody can eventually ask for a WoB on if Syl was a deadeye for the time that the bond was not functional with Kaladin (or even just ask if Kal's situation was like a normal Radiant breaking Oaths and killing their spren).  

Edited April 14, 2022 by Treamayne
Add References

[Darth_Hel]

 

This theory would make sense, especially given this WoB. So, some of Shallan's truths are going towards her new bond with Pattern, but some might be remnants of the old bond with Testament, and thus were going towards salvaging that bond. I'm not sure if its possible to bond two spren fully at once, so reviving Testament might weaken or break her bond with Pattern, or vice versa. This could be the step back and complicated part.

 

Spoiler

 

enceladus_47

Does Shallan's "I killed my spren" count as a truth?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna leave up to theorizing, figuring out the timeline that's going on with Shallan. What we can say is that Shallan is reconstructing, in many cases, oaths she has said before. And it is working slightly differently than someone who is saying new oaths. And indeed, saying she killed her spren is one of those steps. I'll leave it to you to try and parse through that. It's actually pretty complicated. We have a nice big page explaining all of this stuff internally, to make sure that we're keeping it all straight. Because she has violated oaths and reconstructed them, is basically what's happening. And she is regressing, and she's doing a... 1.1 steps forward, 1 step back, sort of thing, kind of frequently.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Darth_Hel

[Treamayne]

 

Still not the book reference, but this is from the Coppermind, and a related quote from WoR

Spoiler

Syl

Quote

 

After Kaladin was arrested, Syl was disappointed and subdued.^[67] Soon, Kaladin began to abandon his Oaths in his mind, causing her to begin losing her sapience.^[46] She became more childlike and easily distracted, losing her bond with Kaladin to the point where he could not draw upon Stormlight. Nonetheless, she retained enough presence of mind to remind him to say the words, and to provide him with one last breath of Stormlight when he fell into the chasms.^[68][47] It was then that she died, the strain on her bond too great to continue.^[10]

Still, death is more of a spectrum than a state to a spren. As Kaladin began to slowly return to his Oaths, growing wary of Moash's plan, his connection to her deepened again.

 

WoR Ch 75

Quote

 

It was the only way to find the Oathgate. Assuming it wasn’t destroyed in whatever shattered the Plains, Shallan thought. And, if I do find it, will I even be able to open it? Only one of the Knights Radiant was said to be able to open the pathway.

“Pattern,” she said softly, clutching a mug of warmed wine, “I’m not a Radiant, right?”

“I do not think so,” he said. “Not yet. There is more to do, I believe, though I cannot be certain.”

“How can you not know?”

“I was not me when the Knights Radiant existed. It is complex to explain. I have always existed. We are not ‘born’ as men are, and we cannot truly die as men do. Patterns are eternal, as is fire, as is the wind. As are all spren. Yet, I was not in this state. I was not . . . aware.”

“You were a mindless spren?” Shallan said. “Like the ones that gather around me when I draw?”

“Less than that,” Pattern said. “I was . . . everything. In everything. I cannot explain it. Language is insufficient. I would need numbers.”

“Surely there are others among you, though,” Shallan said. “Older Cryptics? Who were alive back then?”

“No,” Pattern said softly. “None who experienced the bond.”

“Not a single one?”

“All dead,” Pattern said. “To us, this means they are mindless—as a force cannot truly be destroyed. These old ones are patterns in nature now, like Cryptics unborn. We have tried to restore them. It does not work. Mmmm. Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done . . .”

Stormfather. Shallan pulled the blanket around her closer. “An entire people, all killed?”

“Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”

“No wonder you’re certain I will kill you.”

“It is inevitable,” Pattern said. “You will eventually betray your oaths, breaking my mind, leaving me dead—but the opportunity is worth the cost. My kind is too static. We always change, yes, but we change in the same way. Over and over. It is difficult to explain. You, though, you are vibrant. Coming to this place, this world of yours, I had to give up many things. The transition was . . . traumatic. My memory returns slowly, but I am pleased at the chance. Yes. Mmm.”

 

 

 

Also, earlier discussing who "accepts" an oath, I found this WoB that implies it's not the same for every order:

Spoiler

 

 

Quote

 

Jeremy Mahieu

If Adolin said the First Oath to Maya, would the Stormfather have to accept it if Maya did?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Not necessarily.

There's more going on here. Even if Maya would... Does he mean the oath? Is he wanting to be part of that Order? There are so many things in that that could prevent... And even, would the Stormfather be the one answering, in that case? Which would probably be a "no."

All kinds of versions of "no" to that question, though it is a good question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 4/12/2022 at 10:40 AM, Darth_Hel said:

 

This theory would make sense, especially given this WoB. So, some of Shallan's truths are going towards her new bond with Pattern, but some might be remnants of the old bond with Testament, and thus were going toward salvaging that bond. I'm not sure if its possible to bond two spren fully at once, so reviving Testament might weaken or break her bond with Pattern, or vice versa. This could be the step back and complicated part.

Interesting, but can a Deadeye even receive Oaths? Even if they can, Oaths alone aren't enough for normal dead Shardblades, so I'm unsure if it is enough for Shallan/Test. This implies it might be, but since the question is more about Adolin/Maya, it's interrupted...

WoB (regarding Adolin/Maya)

Spoiler

 

 

Quote

 

Kaladin al'Thor

I noticed my last time reading Words of Radiance that there were several times-- vines that were on Adolin's shardblade as he summoned it. So I was wondering if maybe the Radiant who used it had was an Edgedancer?

Brandon Sanderson

You are right.

Kaladin al'Thor

You mentioned before that it would be possible to revive a dead shard[blade], but it would be very difficult--

Brandon Sanderson

Very difficult.

Kaladin al'Thor

Like I think what you said is that it would have to be the same person that broke the bond?

Brandon Sanderson

That would be the-- Yeah.

Kaladin al'Thor

So if it was an Edgedancer's blade if he made those same oaths could potentially he…

Brandon Sanderson

That would most likely not be enough. Something else would have to happen. Good guess though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Bort]

So, my theory on the dead Blades...

After the events at the end of RoW, with Dalinar realising he can Connect people with those in the spiritual realm, he's going to help Shallan reConnect with and revive Testament.

From there, he experiments a little and discovers how to revive Oathbringer, by reaching into the spiritual realm using Oathbringer's existing Connections and finding the missing piece.

After that it's Maya's turn with Adolin's help, both restoring her and strengthening their bond.

After that, he should be able to figure out the rest of them.

[NoSoySandiaº]

Something we are not talking its that the only one that can teach Danilar to do these things with the spiritual realm and Connect a character with an spren is the Crazy Herald that is killing sprens and transfer them into the physical realm lol. 

Its a hard to find out how dalinar is gonna achieve these goals without Ishar. 

 

[Master Silver]

26 minutes ago, NoSoySandiaº said:

Something we are not talking its that the only one that can teach Danilar to do these things with the spiritual realm and Connect a character with an spren is the Crazy Herald that is killing sprens and transfer them into the physical realm lol. 

Its a hard to find out how dalinar is gonna achieve these goals without Ishar. 

 

But Dalinar has already started doing this, connecting with people that is. First with Shallan making the map. Then and more importantly with Nail. He can also speak foreign languages via connection. Finally, he connected Kaladin to his brother. So I think he is a lot closer to figuring it out than we think. 

[Treamayne]

15 hours ago, Bort said:

So, my theory on the dead Blades...

After the events at the end of RoW, with Dalinar realising he can Connect people with those in the spiritual realm, he's going to help Shallan reConnect with and revive Testament.

From there, he experiments a little and discovers how to revive Oathbringer, by reaching into the spiritual realm using Oathbringer's existing Connections and finding the missing piece.

After that it's Maya's turn with Adolin's help, both restoring her and strengthening their bond.

After that, he should be able to figure out the rest of them.

Interesting Theory, though that's alot to put on one guy. I'm not sure that helping Testament will natually lead to helping a deadeye whose Radiant is dead. Also (see below) we have more than one Bondssmith now, and I think helping Deadeyes just might be mroe in Navani's wheelhouse.

 

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

But Dalinar has already started doing this, connecting with people that is. First with Shallan making the map. Then and more importantly with Nale. He can also speak foreign languages via connection. Finally, he connected Kaladin to his brother. So I think he is a lot closer to figuring it out than we think. 

But all of those uses of Spiritual Adhesion are connecting himself to something/someone. Trying to heal a Deadeye would be connecting two things external to himself. 

I'm not saying it can't be done, it is an interesting theory, but i am saying it is unlikely to be as intuitive as the ways he has already begun to use. 

Also, we should consider that we have another Bondsmith now. In the theory that each order/Radiant Spren is X% Honor/Y% Cultivation; I would posit that either:

1- Navani is the one more likely to be able to work this kind of Connection, since the Sibling is already of both Honor and Cultivation - or - 

2 - Dalinar would be able to help Deadeye Spren who are more of Honor than Cultivation, and the spren that are more Cultivation than Honor would need assistance from a Cultivation bondsmith.

 

[Bort]

You're right, of course. I wasn't thinking about Navani when I wrote that, more speculating on what Dalinar did with Connecting Tien and Kaladin. Healing deadeyes may be more her wheelhouse, but she doesn't have the same experiences that Dalinar has had with the spiritual realm, which is why I thought he could do it.

[Isilel]

On 12.4.2022 at 8:00 AM, crème de la crèmling said:

 My reasoning is that the spren lost huge portions of their population to the Recreance, and I believe this has to include all bonded spren, even those of Ideal 1 or 2.

 

The squire system and organized nature of the Radiant Orders in general may have prevented this, though, with spren willing to bond always having their choice of candidates on the cusp of the 3rd ideal. IIRC, there was a great mobilisation of spren willing to bond relatively shortly before the Recreance due to whatever was going on with BAM. Which is why the honorspren were completely wiped out.

[crème de la crèmling]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:11 AM, Treamayne said:

I recall a quote (novel or WoB - not sure which) about death for Spren not being a "state" but more of a "range."

Could it be this?

Quote

Spren had been ... cagey about whether they could be killed in Shadesmar. [Adolin]'d seen them carry weapons, and during his earlier trip, Notum's sailors had admitted that spren could be cut and would feel pain. "Killing" them involved hurting them so much that their minds broke and they became something akin to a deadeye.

RoW 35: The Strength of a Sailor

Assuming that whatever Kaladin did to hurt Syl was enough to break her mind in such a way.

In terms of Syl dying/not dying, she seemed convinced of it at the time and throughout OB as well--she has another line about a certain place in Shadesmar being like a dream she had when she died, but in RoW it's almost as if "her death" gets aggressively retconned. I'm not sure what the purpose of having a difference between not-quite-death at Ideal 2 versus death Ideal 3 would be. Why make there be a difference now? What's gained there, either narratively or mechanically? I assumed it was another instance of characters applying their biases (if Syl had died, she'd still be a deadeye because there's no cure for that) to what they observe, even if it isn't what is really happening. This is something I'm super interested in discussing and hearing your opinion on! 

However, I disagree with the reading that Kaladin was acting in line with his oaths when the bond snapped; I think he was acting not protectively, but possessively.

Quote

Like a drowning man struggling toward the surface, Kaladin thrashed for the Stormlight. He would not die this way! The sky was his! The winds were his. The chasms were his.

He would not!

Syl screamed, a terrified, painful sound that vibrated Kaladin’s very bones. In that moment, he got a breath of Stormlight, life itself.

WoR 69: Nothing

He's not thinking of protecting Dalinar, or even the other people falling with him. He's thinking that it's wrong that he should die from a fall into a chasm, since he has ownership over the sky, the winds, the chasms. Obviously, he doesn't really own any of those things, and he's about to be humbled. His powers similarly fade earlier in WoR in a training session where he acts entitled to his abilities, as if they belong to him and aren't continually earned; in fact, Syl pointedly asks him in that moment who he was protecting. Another (eventual) Windrunner, Lyn, struggles with that in OB, right before she gains the ability of a squire, because she comes to the tryouts concerned not with protecting people, but because she (perhaps selfishly) doesn't want to be left behind while everyone else is flying. 

I really like this reading, though:

On 4/12/2022 at 10:11 AM, Treamayne said:

I think this is kind of like when Dalinar reached for his bond with Stormfather to get through the Oathgate when his memory was returning and he panicked. Dalinar reached for power (because he doesn't have a Sword as a bondsmith) and injured Stormfather in the process. I think Kaladin did something similar, and hurt Syl because his bond was so much weaker. 

I definitely see that connection!

Re: Syl not actually being as dead as she thought, it seems like 1 and 2 are squire-able Ideals, where a specific bond to a specific spren may not be entirely necessary. Skybreakers don't officially bond a spren until it's Shardblade time. Ideal 3 seems to mean that the spren is manifested in the Physical Realm. In RoW, there's a lot of talk about "full Windrunners" or "full Radiants" which seems to mean a Shardblade. There also seems to be a correlation between the Ideals sworn and how close the bond is between Radiant and spren, connected to the fact that spren become more and more present in the physical world. Kaladin is "very close" to Ideal 4 and is able to pull Syl out of the "hole" he imagines her being in because of the suppressor field. But at the same time, it seems like all the Radiants bonded to a specific spren go down, since all Radiants in Urithiru appear to lose consciousness, and there isn't a special exception made for Radiants of Ideal 1 and 2, or even the squires.  

The reason I bring this up is that it reads to me like this kind of blanket effect, bond-attacking process is related to whatever that BAM and the Deadeyes seem to be operating on. In this case, though, it seems to be separating spren from Radiant. If Syl was weakened because Kaladin was going back on his oaths so that the connection between them was almost proto-Radiant-ish level, and then she was separated from him (let's say the Stormfather pulled her back into the Cognitive Realm by force or something), would that similarly result in Kaladin's loss of powers?

On 4/18/2022 at 8:53 AM, Isilel said:

The squire system and organized nature of the Radiant Orders in general may have prevented this, though, with spren willing to bond always having their choice of candidates on the cusp of the 3rd ideal.

I was thinking a little about this in the paragraph above, but not all Orders are as strictly organized as the Windrunners and the Skybreakers, or seem to rely on squires to vet potential Radiants. I only have "present day" evidence, but there are two Radiants, Darcira and Beryl of the Unseen Court, who specifically bonded their own spren but have not yet earned their Shardblades, meaning they "weren't squires according to the Windrunner definition. Cryptics weren't as uptight as honorspren, and didn't wait as long to start bonds." (RoW 20) Of those two, Beryl is singled out as someone who bonded her spren on her own without going through the squiring process at all. Venli has done the same here. Lopen spends a long while bonded to a specific honorspren, but even though he knows generally what his oath should be, he doesn't tick up to Ideal 3 until he can say it and mean it. It's this kind of edge case that I'm talking about, especially with Cryptics. If any of those Radiants went back on their oaths, what would happen to their specific spren? Was the pre-Recreance Ideal 3 attainment rate for every single spren/Radiant pair really at 100%?

Another small point is this WoB, which I think of all the time (mostly because it's about a Cryptic):

Quote

Drew Berg

Is Tien's spren still around, or are they recovering like Syl did after her prior Radiant's death?

Brandon Sanderson

We'll RAFO that for now. Tien's spren is not going to be a deadeye. Tien didn't break his oaths, Tien was killed. So we'll RAFO what's up with his spren for now. But you can rest assured that it's not any of that.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

LadyLameness

You've said that Tien was beginning to bond a Cryptic before he died – did he use Surgebinding before he died, even unconsciously? If yes, did we ever see it on screen?

Brandon Sanderson

He was far enough along to start having some of the-- let's just say he was far enough along to have sworn at least one oath.

Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018)

The specificity here, Tien got to at least one oath, and his spren isn't going to be a Deadeye because he was killed and didn't break his oaths. If he had gotten to Shardblade level, I feel like it would have turned out differently for him on the fundamental assumption that by the time Radiants get to Shardblades, they heal even grievous head trauma in a flash, so I tend to think that Tien got to Ideal 2, at very very best. Taken together, it suggests that if he had broken his oaths, his spren might have been a Deadeye. But this is still a pretty tenuous argument because it's relying a whole lot on inferring things from WoBs! 

But something between the two cases (Shallan/Testament and Kaladin/Syl) that suggests a difference is that Kaladin only feels a terrified scream that "vibrates his bones" while Shallan describes a painful ripping, more in line with the idea of having a piece of her soul torn away. Kaladin poetically describes the pain as "not getting inside" with his skin keeping it out, but this could be ordinary physical pain that he isn't fully experiencing because he isn't yet fully conscious. The sensation of ripping seems to come up whenever the Radiant bond gets attacked. I'm thinking of Re-Shephir "seeking to rip [the bond] free and insert herself instead" (OB 30), and of Ishar trying to steal the Stormfather's bond from Dalinar. ("It felt as if his very soul was being ripped out." RoW 111) Kaladin doesn't say anything about being torn or ripped; in fact, he says that the pain didn't quite reach him.

Finally, switching gears entirely in regards to this idea: 

On 4/12/2022 at 9:55 AM, robardin said:

That murder happened long after she’d disavowed (and “killed”) Testament, so it couldn’t have been one of her original Truths to that spren; yet even telling Testament a NEW Truth didn’t revive the bond!

So counting what Truths count towards which Nahel bond of hers and with what outcome gets crazier and crazier, as well as muddying what Shallan is supposed to do to revive Testament when it was relatively straightforward for Syl

The important thing that Kaladin seems to do in WoR 84 is that he mentally re-swears everything before speaking the new words out loud, starting with life before death, moving on to I will protect those who cannot protect themselves, and then culminating with his third oath, spoken out loud. Shallan has strenuously avoided saying the first Ideal, supposedly common to all Orders, on the page. She doesn't even say it to Pattern, a spren she says she newly bonded in WoR. She thinks about it once in WoR, and shuts it down immediately as a painful memory she'd rather forget. So maybe Cryptics are so loose with their interpretations that they'll take the Ideals out of order? What did she do between her father's death and her appearance on the Wind's Pleasure that let her use her Resonance once more?

[Treamayne]

19 minutes ago, crème de la crèmling said:

However, I disagree with the reading that Kaladin was acting in line with his oaths when the bond snapped; I think he was acting not protectively, but possessively.

I totally get what you are saying, and I concur.

I was talking about the part I quoted right before that - realizing the assassin at the bridge was from Sadeas' Lumber yard and trying to warn Adolin and get Dalinar off of the bridge. That's the part that was in-line with his oaths.

Quote

 

The specificity here, Tien got to at least one oath, and his spren isn't going to be a Deadeye because he was killed and didn't break his oaths. ...

 Shallan has strenuously avoided saying the first Ideal, supposedly common to all Orders, on the page. She doesn't even say it to Pattern, a spren she says she newly bonded in WoR. She thinks about it once in WoR, and shuts it down immediately as a painful memory she'd rather forget. So maybe Cryptics are so loose with their interpretations that they'll take the Ideals out of order? What did she do between her father's death and her appearance on the Wind's Pleasure that let her use her Resonance once more?

 

This seems very important, especially combined with:

Quote

 

TWoK Ch 43

“If survival isn’t the point, Teft, then what is?” Kaladin finally got the boot off. He turned to the next body in line, then froze.

It was a bridgeman. Kaladin didn’t recognize him, but that vest and those sandals were unmistakable. He lay slumped against the wall, arms at his sides, mouth slightly open and eyelids sunken. The skin on one of the hands had slipped free and pulled away.

“I don’t know what the point is,” Teft grumbled. “But it seems pathetic to give up. We should keep fighting. Right until those arrows take us. You know, ‘journey before destination.’”

“What does that mean?”

“I don’t know,” Teft said, looking down quickly. “Just something I heard once.”

“It’s something the Lost Radiants used to say,” Sigzil said, walking past.

Kaladin glanced to the side. The soft-spoken Azish man set a shield on a pile. He looked up, brown skin dark in the torchlight. “It was their motto. Part of it, at least. ‘Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.’”

“Lost Radiants?” Skar said, carrying an armful of boots. “Who’s bringing them up?”

 

So if Kaladin had never heard the first oath before, it seems unlikely that Tien would have; much less had sworn the first oath. So, "at least one oath," since Tien was bonding a Cryptic,  might have been 1 or more Truths, but without the foundational Oath (which might account for the lack of breathing in Stormlight).

[Isilel]

On 21.4.2022 at 2:36 AM, crème de la crèmling said:

I was thinking a little about this in the paragraph above, but not all Orders are as strictly organized as the Windrunners and the Skybreakers, or seem to rely on squires to vet potential Radiants. I only have "present day" evidence, but there are two Radiants, Darcira and Beryl of the Unseen Court, who specifically bonded their own spren but have not yet earned their Shardblades, meaning they "weren't squires according to the Windrunner definition. Cryptics weren't as uptight as honorspren, and didn't wait as long to start bonds." (RoW 20) Of those two, Beryl is singled out as someone who bonded her spren on her own without going through the squiring process at all. Venli has done the same here. Lopen spends a long while bonded to a specific honorspren, but even though he knows generally what his oath should be, he doesn't tick up to Ideal 3 until he can say it and mean it. It's this kind of edge case that I'm talking about, especially with Cryptics. If any of those Radiants went back on their oaths, what would happen to their specific spren? Was the pre-Recreance Ideal 3 attainment rate for every single spren/Radiant pair really at 100%?

It has been mentioned many times that the situation now is very different than was the case immediately pre-Recreance. Both humans and spren lost nearly all institutional knowledge of the Radiant Orders and the way things used to be done. So, it is entirely possible that back then most Radiants only bonded their own spren when they were ready for or very close to swearing the 3rd ideal. There was no need for spren to go search for a bondmate far afield when they had a wealth of candidates to pick from in Urithiru, who were already steeped in the Ideals and had sworn some. Isn't there a WoB that being connected to a Radiant in some way makes it more likely that a person would be considered by  spren, even those of different species than that of the Radiant in question?  BTW, squires of an Order can bond spren not of their Order too, if they are better suited. We know that the Recreance was preceded by a large and swift mobilisation of spren, which is why all honorspren bar Syl ended up bonded at the time and subsequently dead-eyed. This quick expanding of the Orders makes it even less likely that the spren would have looked outside the people who were already squires - there just wasn't time to bring newbs along before whatever prompted  said expansion happened.

Modern spren act completely differently - in part intentionally so, to try to avoid mistakes of the past and in part because they are ignorant of the past.

There is an epigraph in WoR about a straightforward warrior somehow bonding a Cryptic and being unable to progress, but it seems likely to have been a rare occurence and probably a battlefield bonding of a spren that was "orphaned" immediately prior. So, yes, there might have been a handful of spren who "died" in some other way. There is also even more reason to think after RoW that the soulcaster devices were Radiant spren manifested in ways other than blades during the Recreance and affected somewhat differently by the breaking of Oaths. I also hope that some Radiants figured out how to take their spren off-world, rather than subject them to dead-eyeing. But Dalinar's vision of the Feverstone Keep showed hundreds, if not thousands of Windrunners and Stonewards of at least the 4th Ideal (because of armor) committing Recreance, so there _should_ be heaps more of shardblades and plate around than we have seen so far in any case.