Mistdork

Originally, this was going to be more world-hopping based, but I lost some stuff and this turned into a topic on realmatic transportation (physical to cognitive) hopping instead. It’s not a theory, though this is probably not the best topic to dabble in lightly; unfortunately, I was a little bored, it was late, and I wanted tea. So forgive me if my thoughts are not well-explained or if it seems to just go on and on about rabbits…What I’m saying is that I expect to be shot down by the self-proclaimed real experts on Realmatic Theory. Well, at least I tried? Heh, I just hope no one stole my thunder…but anyways, enough of my blab… Geronomo!

First though, I want to bring up Aon Rao. As we know, the shape of Elantris and the landscape around it is based on this Aon and creates Elantrians and allows them access to that magic. But at the heart of this giant Aon, is the pool or the "dot" in the middle of Rao. This Aon Rao can be seen as a gateway, one that allows Investiture in from the Spiritual Realm into the physical realm; or a place where Investiture is moving from a place of “high spiritual pressure to a place of lower pressure.”  A giant Aon, perhaps even (in some way) a giant Seon, though for this topic, it doesn’t particularly matter if the pool we are dealing with is a splinterpool or a shardpool. It only matters that it’s a big gateway.

What really matters is this: when one draws an Aon, when one uses stormlight, when one burns metal, et al.; one opens a gateway for Investiture to flow through. Notably, the pool in Elantris is at the certain of an incredibly large and powerful Aon that continuously draws in Investiture. It operates as a gateway, but as anyone can tell you, gateways can be entered through both ways. If one opens a big enough gateway (and maintains it), one should be able to go through it. Essentially, this means that a big enough gateway can be used by a person just as a big enough gateway let’s in a lot of Investiture. Pools, like the one at the center of the giant Aon Rao, are this, but I think is easier to see with Aon Rao because we already know what Aons do.

Aons let Investiture into the physical realm, and should also be able (if they’re big enough) to let physical beings out. This means, that if something opens a gateway (or uses Investiture), it opens a gateway for a person to go through, allowing for further realmatic shenanigans on the other side. No, this point doesn’t explain how world hopping is conducted (when we see Elsecalling in action, I think we might have a better idea), but it does explain how someone can enter the cognitive and possibly the spiritual realms. I’m not proposing that this idea is revolutionary (I’m sure someone brought it up before me). Instead: I’m only proposing that the Pool on Elantris reveals that this pool exists in that particular spot because of the giant Aon Rao, and this giant Aon Rao draws on AonDor in such a way that it opens a gigantic gateway between realms.

Essentially, all you need is a big enough gateway…and the ability to open it (except, perhaps, if someone did it for you…) for realmatic transportation, however, I will say that this only for certain worlds and really only a basic idea. I’m not doing application, only proposing that by opening gateways for Investiture to seep through (like the giant Aon Rao, but it should work on a smaller scale, like with Soulcasters and Elsecallers, though not quite in the same way), one can enter another realm and eventually worldhop.

(That’s the best I could come up, and yes, I probably did not hit the dot.  Just don’t kill me, this is still my first topic…)Originally, this was going to be more world-hopping based, but I lost some stuff and this turned into a topic on realmatic transportation (physical to cognitive) hopping instead. It’s not a theory, though this is probably not the best topic to dabble in lightly; unfortunately, I was a little bored, it was late, and I wanted tea. So forgive me if my thoughts are not well-explained or if it seems to just go on and on about rabbits…What I’m saying is that I expect to be shot down by the self-proclaimed experts on Realmatic Theory. Well, at least I tried? Heh, I just hope no one stole my thunder…but anyways, enough of my blab… Geronomo!

First though, I want to bring up Aon Rao. As we know, the shape of Elantris and the landscape around it is based on this Aon and creates Elantrians and allows them access to that magic. But at the heart of this giant Aon, is the pool or the "dot" in the middle of Rao. This Aon Rao can be seen as a gateway, one that allows Investiture in from the Spiritual Realm into the physical realm; or a place where Investiture is moving from a place of “high spiritual pressure to a place of lower pressure.”  A giant Aon, perhaps even (in some way) a giant Seon, though for this topic, it doesn’t particularly matter if the pool we are dealing with is a splinterpool or a shardpool. It only matters that it’s a big gateway.

What really matters is this: when one draws an Aon, when one uses stormlight, when one burns metal, et al.; one opens a gateway for Investiture to flow through. Notably, the pool in Elantris is at the certain of an incredibly large and powerful Aon that continuously draws in Investiture. It operates as a gateway, but as anyone can tell you, gateways can be entered through both ways. If one opens a big enough gateway (and maintains it), one should be able to go through it. Essentially, this means that a big enough gateway can be used by a person just as a big enough gateway let’s in a lot of Investiture. Pools, like the one at the center of the giant Aon Rao, are this, but I think is easier to see with Aon Rao because we already know what Aons do.

Aons let Investiture into the physical realm, and should also be able (if they’re big enough) to let physical beings out. This means, that if something opens a gateway (or uses Investiture), it opens a gateway for a person to go through, allowing for further realmatic shenanigans on the other side. No, this point doesn’t explain how world hopping is conducted (when we see Elsecalling in action, I think we might have a better idea), but it does explain how someone can enter the cognitive and possibly the spiritual realms. I’m not proposing that this idea is revolutionary (I’m sure someone brought it up before me). Instead: I’m only proposing that the Pool on Elantris reveals that this pool exists in that particular spot because of the giant Aon Rao, and this giant Aon Rao draws on AonDor in such a way that it opens a gigantic gateway between realms.

Essentially, all you need is a big enough gateway…and the ability to open it (except, perhaps, if someone did it for you…) for realmatic transportation, however, I will say that this only for certain worlds and really only a basic idea. I’m not doing application, only proposing that by opening gateways for Investiture to seep through (like the giant Aon Rao, but it should work on a smaller scale, like with Soulcasters and Elsecallers, though not quite in the same way), one can enter another realm and eventually worldhop...

---

That’s the best I could come up, and yes, I probably did not hit the dot.  Just don’t kill me, this is still my first topic…be nice! I'm gonna sleep now...also, since the Pool is at the center of a giant Aon Rao, I think it might be more of a splinterpool by the time of Elantris...or even the center of a giant "Seon". One might say it's not quite a shardpool..., indeed. Now for some wild speculation (just for fun):

Actually, from my understand, Nightblood was made near the end of the Manywar; not the beginning. He was only used in the last battle of the war when Shashara decided to tell the secret of Nightblood's creation to all of Nalthis. This means that it's more probable that Nightblood was made closer to the beginning...So, by that point, I think that Vasher had a "clearer" idea of what evil might be after seeing that the terrors that war can create (like rape, pillaging, poverty, famine, thievery, citizen deaths caused by total warfare, Lifeless rampaging, Awakening weapons, etc). While evil is less concrete in this sense (you don't see it incarnate in the form of a monster/empire), it doesn't mean that he didn't have a good sense of what he thought evil was by this period. I think your major issue is that why would a scientist think he could directly define evil if his definition of evil should be (based on his circumstances) less concrete...

Also, while Vasher is a scientist in a matter of speaking, the science he's studying is by nature less concrete. It's not like physics or chemistry, and arguably, BioChromatics was a very new field at that point. They really didn't understand (as well) how vague that Command would be, but I think that they did have a clear idea of what they believed evil was, even though evil would still be a vague concept to Vasher and Shashara, the war helped to define evil to them. Really though, I think that when Nightblood is release, we might have a better idea of what was going on at this time and why they thought a sword was a "good" choice to combat evil. Though, I think that their vague idea of what evil is really does explain why Nightblood needs someone to define evil for it.

My personal opinion is that Returned are not souls, but Cognitive Shadows. I have proof, but haven't started working on it yet, haha. It solves the above quote you finished with, Moogle.

Hmmm, technically Cognitive Shadows are what many people normally think of souls, I think. That is, souls in the Cosmere are spiritual constructs, but in many religions, souls are seen as a thinking being...or rather ghost-like in some way...much like shadows. That's exactly what Returned seem to be given our current knowledge of realmatics..

@Shyguy: The simplest definition for a Cognitive Shadow is that it's a...ghost or a mind that stayed behind in the cognitive realm after it's physical form was killed. The best example of this (out side of Shadows for Silence) is Kelsier, who decided that he can't leave well enough alone and had to stay on Scadrial forever (I guess he had some unfinished business, also it might have had strange/bad cognitive effects if he hadn't stayed, since so many people in Scadrial eventually see him as a god.)

Here's a nice WOB on this topic:

Q: At the end of the trilogy Sazed communicates with Kelsier so there is something going on with an afterlife.  Is it uniform across the cosmere?

B: What is happening there is not actually technically an afterlife, well it kind of is, it is what we call a cognitive shadow its when your spirit is not moving on yet.  So there is a Beyond but there is a-- basically it is what we would call in our world a ghost, and there are actually magic systems based around that.  Actually the story I have coming out in George R.R. Martin’s next anthology is a ghost story involving this same--yes it is cosmere based.  Yes, that would be consistent, they don’t all have the same mythology regarding it.  But it would be consistent, what happened with Kelsier could have happened on any of the planets.

(source)

I'll bet heavily (to the tune of "I'll admit I was wrong") that you're pretty much entirely wrong. I do not predict any real reluctance on Kaladin's part (maybe a moment or two of internal "man, I wish this didn't make me glowy-eyed," but nothing that affects his actions) and find the idea of Kaladin "never again will I be locked up" Stormblessed submitting to incarceration laughable.

But but but, then he could never lament about how often things start with him being put in prison...! Oh wait, that's a different character.

I can't see Kaladin being super mopey either...or more depressed than usual. However, other than his SAD, most of his depression so far seemed triggered by events, that is, it was circumstantial instead of clinical depression. Kal's always had a (good or SAD-related) reason for being depressed, so I wouldn't peg it on a different "neurotypical" personality (which, btw, isn't the right term considering that most people will suffer from some kind of depression at some point in their lives). That doesn't mean that bad things won't continue to happen to him, he always seems to have the worst luck...

What about M&Ms? Couldn't we say that the beads are really just sugar-coated M&M's too? Did I seriously just turn Shadesmar into a chocolatey-fairy land... Great, now I see Jasnah and Shallan (and the spren) as chocolate addicts on a high from all the sugary chocolate and skittles they're consuming...Wonderful.

What's next, a chocolate stick?

WoR:

Hoid manages it, though. He's got at least 100 Breaths and when he's talking to Kaladin about his perfect pitch, Kaladin doesn't note that colors have changed around him.

Hoid's a Feruchemist too, but I think an easier explanation could be the "weird factor". Sometimes the human brain doesn't notice something that seems slightly out of the ordinary.

Now, onto more important things!

Or wait, no, I should go to bed. I can't think straight past midnight.

I hear economics. Oh good, this should be quite fun!

Anyway, first I want to address the issue of Jewels. There's one big difference with what Jewels did, there are two major differences between what Jewels did and what the average person selling their Breaths does:

First, Jewels was a child when she gave up her Breath. Her Breath was therefore healthier, better, and stronger than an adult's, it was strictly of better quality because it was more vibrant due to her young age. This means that her Breath was worth more than an adult's, and so, selling her Breath brought her family more income.

Secondly, Jewels sold her Breath to the God King. She was able to do this because she was a child (they mainly fed him more vibrant Breaths from children) and therefore her Breath was worth more to the gods. When determining the price tag, we have to take into account that she was one of the few children that had this "opportunity". Most children in Hallandren don't give up their Breath to the gods or the God King, meaning that her family was able to earn more in the exchange.

So, my point is that while Jewels family was able to afford the cost of food for a year (not the cost of living, necessarily), this doesn't mean that anyone selling their Breath on the street could do so. I also think that some of it is hyperbole, especially the bit about feeding a peasant family for 50 years. I'm not saying that Breath are not worth a lot of money (they obvious are), but I think that using Jewels as a way to calculate the worth of a Breath skews their worth a little bit...

It would be better, I think, to say that the average Breath (not one sold to the God King) is worth about the price it takes to feed a peasant family of four for a day. This is more people than the average modern family buying their basket of goods, so that must be taken into account. Secondly, their diet would rarely (if ever) include meats and other things we buy today, meaning that the price of a basket of (nutritious) food of a modern day family and that of a poor "medieval" family living in Hallandren  are hardly comparable. It might be better to compare the basket of food that a poor family living in China or a third-world country buys than someone living in Canada, the U.S., or any nation we live in. If say, you earn about $2 a day and (manage) to live off that in a third world country...or say that in Hallandren you earn about $5 (since the country is wealthier) when you have work, than the price of Breath should be anywhere from $550 to $1900 (1) (arguably more if your child gives theirs to the gods)...or the amount to feed a peasant family. The worth depends on how well the economy is doing and other factors, but I think that a more conservative estimate based on PPP in low income countries is probably a more accurate estimate. 

(1) For other countries that's about £290 to £1100 (GBP); $530 to $2020 (CAD); or €367 to €1396 (Euro). If you want to see this in another currency, just ask...

(2) For the math, I simply based the amount earn per-day on a 365-day year and multiplied it by $2 and $5, then subtracted $50 or $100 for other expenses. This is a really bad equation, but I didn't want to do a more detailed estimate since I don't have enough information on their economics...and naturally, I need to sleep.

Or they figured out their kinship because both had the Royal Locks.

The obvious answer tonight, eh? I thought you were known for bringing WoBs into everything, this is quite disappointing, but I'm also too lazy to go and get it right now, so someone else can do the deed! (Or I might fetch it tomorrow, I know where it is, but I need some sleep).

Anyway, yeah, since they have the Royal Locks, this could mean that the royal family would probably have enough funds to support their two Returned siblings/heirs, they wouldn't need the Cult of the Returned to do so in their case and so Shashara and Denth wouldn't be limited by the cult's rules and restrictions (like Vasher was when he Returned). Their family could just tell them and feed them Breath, it also explains quite nicely why the royal family was so interested in Awakening just before the Manywar broke out...

It's funny that Vasher married a princess, though...and is still an usurper. Heh.

We know for certain splinters do not always have consciousness, or sentience if you'd prefer. Splinters, when left on their own, seem to develop sentience spontaneously - that's a fancy way of saying they do it whenever the conditions are right. We know for example that the Divine Breaths never seem to develop sentience when attached to Returned, and that spren sentience is crude until bonded with a human, and that there were or possibly still are some mindless splinters in the Sel area.

 

It's difficult to say what exactly the conditions to make a conscious splinter are, but at a guess they include: not being attached to another cognitive entity (esp. Humans), not having an explicit Intent, the Investiture strength of the splinter, and the original way the splinter was fashioned.

I feel utterly foolish for forgetting about Divine Breaths... Though, they always seemed like the odd one out of the splinters that we know about, perhaps another reason (to an extent) is that splinters are given a conscious intent through direction of a Shard (like bonding-spren before Honor splintered), through something like a command (Nightblood) that gives a splintered conscious intent ("human" intervention), or through shard shattering shenanigans. From what I recall, these are the main instances where splinters have developed sentience, perhaps the reason that Divine Breaths are different is that because they are "bonded" to humans in such a integral way those humans direct their intent. While in the other cases sentience develops to direct the splinter's new intent, with Divine Breaths it doesn't happen because human sentience directs and is deeply connected to the splinter... It's like when you leave a shard without a holder. That Shard will develop its own conscious/sentience (if it doesn't/isn't forced to splinter) base on its intent that directs that intent, perhaps one can see the Returned as "miniature" shard holders; like a Shard with a sentient host, they are bound to their splinter's intent.

But for some reason, I'm not sure I would see Honorblades as the same kind of splinters as Divine Breaths...or if they (somehow) are, that's rather freaky and would mean disturbing things...

Thanks, Tempus. You said in a dozen words what I tried to allude to with hundreds. I'd by lying if I said I hadn't hoped this thread would catch your eye.
 

Also, Tempus is now officially "Theoryspren". Congratulations! You've received a new level of Sanderfandom!

@Tempus: Do we know for certain that splinters always have to be conscious? We see that the Shardblades (that are not "living" spren) are mostly "dead". Couldn't the Honorblades be "dead" in a similar fashion (that is, since the oaths of the Heralds are twisted and/or mostly dead)? What if the Honorblades are like Lerasium... Lerasium is almost a splinter, but not quite (there's a WoB somewhere that says this, but I can't recall where it is ), if the Honorblades are "almost splinters" and somehow can receive an extra boost if a non-twisted Herald is wielding the blades, that could explain the discrepancy in power levels and Honorblade strength. I admit this is a little left field, but there's not much evidence to go on either...

I will still argue (and will probably continue to argue to the grave) that Renarin has a scholarly mindset. He's analytical and he works through his problems in a very logical and scholarly way. We see multiple times throughout Way of Kings and Words of Radiance that he has a fascination with fabrials, often going over to inspect them or ask Navani about them. There's a moment in Words of Radiance where he notices Kaladin inspecting a fabrial and actually goes over and starts a conversation with Kaladin about it.

 

Yes. Renarin. Going over and starting a conversation with someone who is almost a stranger to him.

 

So, THAT's his specialization. I bet Renarin could talk about fabrials all day given the opportunity, Feather, seeing as ASD people seem to find niches like that. Knowing a ton about fabrials and wanting to talk about it fits in quite well...ha, I didn't notice this when reading WoR...

What if the box were a kind of fabrial stim toy?

(And look, I'm not picking on your fan-ism!)

Oh, sorry, I should have specified what I was replying to there. I was contesting TheBlackReaper's claim that the Shaod is an entity created by Devotion there. I certainly agree that the Shaod candidates for Snapping, since it, regardless of its origins, is still an example of foreign Investiture being received by a magic user.

Interesting thoughts on Snapping aligning with Shardic Intent. It sounds very plausible, even without full evidence.

I'm honestly sure that all the ways people get Investiture are aligned with Shardic/Splinter Intent...Even Spren must have oaths/ideals/truths which their KR must swear to receive Investiture. Swearing oaths is honorable, and arguably, the growth of KR could be seen as Cultivating a bond (but the evidence for that is really sparse). Yes, Honor is splintered, but the system was around before then, and that should mean it still reflects his Intent and, therefore, the way that they get that Investiture reflects it as well (to an extent)...

Also, I have more evidence for this. Think about how nobles snapped their kids in Mistborn. They beat them until they snapped, that is, until they were able to preserve themselves, thus again reflecting Preservation's Intent. The way end-positive Investiture seems to work is that those who usually receive it have to be in a situation or even live a life that aligns with the Shard's Intent plus whatever prerequisites might also be required (genetics/geometry/spren-bond). This isn't always the case (you can eat a bead of Lerasium or grab a Honorblade) but for the most part, it is...

The only ones I find odd are ChayShan and Forgery. I have no clue how to explain the former, and Forgery seems like a Devotion-based power based on skill (and the devotion a Forger has to their profession), while also not being based in someone (in the same way, though region and genetics still matter). :/

Sel, I'm really not sure how the Elantrians transform.  That one is confusing!

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

The Shaod is an effect of Elantris.

 

The Shaod, though, is directly related to how Aon Dor works, that though doesn't exclude it from fitting the pattern to some extent. Shaod comes at night, usually to people that show devotion to a particular area in their life. Like Galladeon to his farm, Raoden to his people, or Karata to her daughter and husband (and even Adien to his numbers/figures). All of these people showed an intent that is arguably in-line to the local way to attract the Shaod, and have the genetics to do it too (they all of have some Aonic blood). They also possess the third requirement, that is, they show remarkable devotion to something...and so become Elantrians (as long as certain symbols work).

So, from my recent reading of Elantris, it seems like it still fits the pattern. That is, if one looks at this pattern as highly intensified emotion/psychological trauma that breaks through cracks in the soul. My personal belief is that the better an emotion or a person's intent fits with the Intent of the Shard/Splinter, the easier it is for the local Investiture to look through...(if it's end-positive Investiture). However, it's not impossible for other emotions to...unlock the cracks.

Like, we know (from WoB) that in Mistborn you can snap without having an emotional experience that causes you to have to "preserve" yourself in a dangerous situation...but it's rare. Usually, the experience of snapping/breaking has to align, often those who snapped in the series had to go through a traumatic situation where they had to preserve themselves somehow. Like Kelsier at the Pits or Vin when she was born. Still, if an emotional high (I mean, positive emotions) can snap you on Scadrial, it might be true elsewhere. I kind of hope we see someone becoming a KR like this just for kicks...

 

In Warbreaker, you have to buy Breath, or die and be returned (with a guilty conscience) to have power

In Elantris, you had to turn, which was a physical and probably emotional change

I don't recall Returned coming back because of their "guilty conscience". It was often because they did something spectacular (like Lightsong saving his niece, etc), and then came back to possibly change the future that they foresaw thanks to Endowment. This doesn't mean that there wasn't a breaking at some point, but I don't believe that's necessarily the case. Yes, they get a ridiculous amount of Investiture, but it still seems to fit the pattern of end-neutral more than end-positive...at least in how they receive it (since it comes directly from Endowment, maybe they can just break it open because of their shardiness. Who knows...) 

Scotch-tape time. Don't forget, scotch tape fixes everything! You know you haven't read enough until that cover's all scotch-taped up!

But wow, I don't think I've read any book more than three times...

I'm pretty sure the hair isn't related so much with the similar cultural things. It's closer to what I'll tentatively call the rule of perception; i.e. on Roshar, the Alethi believe that a pure Alethi will have black hair. On Nalthis, the Ithians (and even some non-Ithians) believe that those who are (or were) in the direct line to the throne will have "magical locks" that can do certain things (like grow on command or change color). People believe it. Another example of this, though not really hair-related, is seen with the Returned. Returned who don't know how to limit the effects of their Divine Breath look as people expect them to look. They look like the ideal person (a physical 'god'). Pure Alethi have the ideal hair color. The royal family is magical, because arguably, that's an ideal too (that is, that royal heirs should be special).

I'm not sure if it's Cosmere wide, though. It might partially be due to Endowment and Cultivation's intents being somewhat similar (at least in the way that they're invoked). Endowment endows such beliefs with his/her Investiture making them...reality. This could be seen as an indirect effect of the Shard's investment like with the Returned and the heirs to the throne (even if their time to inherit is long since due). You might be able to argue this even with Breath. Part of Awakening is perception. The better someone can perceive/imagine the Command, the better they can Awaken an object to obey that perceived/imagined command. Arguably, it's all about perception...or beliefs, it's a cognitive art that is expressed in the physical realm...

Cultivation cultivates ideas/ideals like Alethi hair color making those reality...or really, she also cultivates Spren, making those ideas into real, living things too. Note that spren, on a very basic level, are ideas based on ideals, such as Honorspren, firespren, even Stormfather; it's like these guys were cultivated from human ideals that were then translated into ideas and finally, given a form...sometimes in the physical realm. (See Interlude with the firespren in WoK) Heralds in their physical form should follow this rule. People believe them to be something close to divinity, so, they'd probably look similar to Returned, because that's what people expect them to be.

This post, though, is sounding too much like theory. So, yeah, how 'bout those kandra and fish?

@Meg: Oh Stormfather, it seems it hasn't officially been written yet...I guess I could write it, but I generally like planting seeds and letting others write the theories. 

This is more a matter of logic, but I'll give the short version here. We know that Breath as a known form of Investiture only appeared approximately 500 years before Warbreaker, or 800 years before Roshar. The question is "why"? It might be, as Tempus suggested, that it took Endowment a while to find a planet to invest in (or to want to Invest) thus explaining why Breath is a relatively "new" manifestation of Investiture. I personally think this is somewhat illogical, considering Endowment's intent, but the main point is, that compared to other manifestation's of a shard's intent (that is, it's Investiture), Breath (as a known manifestation) came later than the Metallic Arts and Stormlight. In other words, for some unknown reason, Endowment's Investiture has become known later than other manifestations of the Shard's intent...

Is this a theory? Can you kindly provide me the link? And why do you speak of Endowment as "they" and "them?"

I'd appreciate your help.

We don't know what gender Endowment is, they and them are  also gender neutral pronouns used for someone who has an unknown gender... 

The other part is a theory, we don't know why Endowment only invested in people 500 years ago (more than this now, probably closer to eight hundred if we are going off of modern Rosharan time). It could be a number of things, but we do know that Breath, as an expression of Investiture has only become known relatively recently for some unknown reason. Why that is, however, we can't say.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if there weren't a connection between primordial Nalthis and Roshar. There is the Shash letter. There is a Rosharan fairy tale about a boy who whittles a piece of wood into human shape and uses it to distract Voidbringers. There is a Nalthian fairy tale about a magic sword which symbolizes rulership of a kingdom. And of course, Vasher and Nightblood chilling on Roshar.

 

Taken as individual facts, they don't seem to mean anything. But when I look over all of it together... it strikes me as fishy. Fishier than the Purelake, or Swimmingly's profile picture. There could definitely be a connection between Roshar and Nalthis.

Even fishier than a kandra that ate a magical fish?

Yes, and when we consider that Shashara's name has "shash" in it...like a similar naming convention on Roshar.Right, for now on I think I might just call Nalthis the lost Roshar colony. Perhaps a Nalthian myth led Vasher to Roshar somehow...he just, figured it out, I guess...

Oh fine, I worded it wrong...gosh, pick on it until it becomes a Lifeless or something...

I was  referring to the actual system of Investiture, which hasn't been in use as long and how odd that is (500 years, as Kobold mentioned). Vo only Returned around 500 years ago and supposedly died a week later, but I'm not sure I believe those legends, did he really figure out how a Return could produce a child in merely seven days? That seems quite odd. After that, Returned and perhaps Awakening started to appear in all parts of Nalthis, even in the old kingdoms across the sea...yet, here's what's odd...

Why did Endowment start to return people? Didn't people have Breath before Vo came back? I realize that when Vo came they were near Endowment's pool, but it still seems strange that there would be such a change in the way things were done (Endowment suddenly deciding to Return people who had died on Nalthis) if they have been there for so long (let's say, 5,000 years), but if people were only there (created by Endowment or brought there through another method) sooner (let's say 500 years before Vo)...then perhaps the reason why Breath as a known manifestation of Investiture is "newer" is partially due to this relatively later date. To a Shard, 500 years or so (since this supposed event) wouldn't be that long (for an immortal being), so revealing this power relatively late (compared to other revealed manifestations of Investiture; such as Dominon/Devotion's variable manifestations; stormlight; and the Metallic Arts) would not be so strange in that case.

So, really, all I'm suggesting is that the people of Nalthis are a relatively young group of humans, perhaps because Endowment created life later than the other Shards, it evolved slower than other Shard worlds, or they arrived at a later date...just as Breath, while not a new form of Investiture, was unknown until relatively recently (in the last 500 years). I was really just joking earlier when I said that because shash is a letter on Nalthis is a sign that they were all from Roshar...what would that mean, that everyone there is a descendant of the Knights Radiant or something? Pfft. That sounds completely ridiculous.    

Pfft, the thing about shash...and even the hair. Part of me wouldn't be surprised if the people of Nalthis were Roshar aliens. There Investiture (Breath) is ridiculously young compared to other systems and even with the excuse that they hadn't found the shard pool (or where it's leaking), it just seems odd...

Yes, it's like the Rosharans are aliens (to Roshar) turned on it's head!

I personally think that Hemalogy would be great for storing Breaths for later...or even stealing someone's Breath (and making them a drab) without their permission. Think about it, Breath is probably the most mobile form of innate Investiture, and it's quite easy to move (with commands). That means, I think, that it might be quite easy to rip this form of Investiture out of someone's sDNA without killing them. It could be a wonderful way to figure out how to use Hemalogy to take Investiture without killing the person...even if their personality is never quite the same again! So exciting.

Either this, or store Breath in a Spike made from a Feruchemist with the right attribute...or just be/become a ferring with Nicrosil. Metal-based Investiture can really do curious things, and even though Awakening a spike would be very difficult (given what spikes are) storing Breath in a spike should be quite easy...as long as you have the right kind of spike, of course.

(How to fail your courses with Feruchemy)^TM

Failing all your finals (on purpose) by storing your memories of the answers in your copperminds and then throwing them into a fire.

Store determination in your Electrum in the school year. You don't want to be motivated, after all, you're trying to fail.

Storing wakefulness in class. Your prof can't wake you up. If you can't sleep in class for some reason, store metal speed instead.

Storing enough luck in your Chromium so that you can't get the answers right on a multiple choice test...even if you know the subject by heart!

Finally, if you were lucky enough to somehow be a Feruchemist born with Breath, become a drab (or store your Breath in your metalmind).

Yes, they really are. Their medicine is quite standout, and there is a specific reason for this. Spren. Germ theories were available hundreds of years before they were adopted, but it's very difficult to get people to accept things that they can't see. In our world, the microscope was invented in the 17th century, and wasn't able to see germs until late 18th/early 19th century. It was the ability to see the germs and access to those microscopes that led to the widespread adoptation of germ-centric disease theories.

On Roshar, infection have spren, diseases have spren, rot has spren. They specifically mention you can see them flee from water. Their medicine is advanced because they can see things we needed microscopes for, simple as that. They can also see direct indications of pain (painspren) and other types, allowing for easier diagnostics.

Eh, exactly why I mentioned Investiture at the end there. I wrote this post while half asleep and after finishing a paper/project on Money and Banking, so detail specifics were too muddied in my brain to a long explanation. You're right of course (though you don't have to explain it to me I know when microscopes were invented and why germ-theory came about), but this still supports my point about Investiture (and its effects, spren, etc) changing the way that technology develops.

There are a number of economic texts from Antiquity, notably China and Greece. Though modern political economic theory was all Adam Smith up in the 18th century, mercantilism and it's origins were established in the middle ages, and Sebarial's knowledge (at least his demonstrated knowledge) isn't beyond that.

He still wanted to develop a textile industry...Mercantilism is a theory related to absolutist governments and centralizing powers, looked at properly, it's not a medieval theory. Feudal doesn't equate to absolutist, absolutism was a product of Enlightenment thought. The enlightened absolute monarch was believed by some (in France, the HRE, etc) to be the best way to protect the civil rights of their people... Smith's capitalism was developed in a parliamentary system (Scotland being part of Great Britain by this time) and as something of a counter to 'medieval' mercantilism...or France's economic system (you could say also that it took hold because of the kind of economy that Britain developed beyond Smith due to its democracy and later imperialism...) Not that one can't find some ideas in earlier periods, but mercantilism proper is a bit more Renaissance/Enlightenment than something of feudal lords. There's nothing wrong with saying that Sebarial might be something of a genius though, even if he's storming lazy about it...and if anything, Alethkar might very well become an absolutist-like state by the time these books are done...if it survives, that is.

The Alethi were until just recently a scattered collection of feudal lords, constantly fighting their small battles (and still doing so, as shown in Way of Kings) for land. There's nothing to suggest that they have anything approaching a large, standing, national force - in fact it is clear from the way the Highprinces act that having an overarching military authority (Highprince of War) is not only unusual, but unwanted.

 

Military cooperation is not exactly on the list, and their invasion is supported entirely by individual greed of a variety of factions (the gemhearts). This has every indication of being similar to a feudal, medieval type organization.

Many countries had standing armies. Notably, the Romans had a large standing army, and the Vorin hierocracy of the past resembles in many ways the Roman Empire.

Lastly, Alethi is apparently based a little bit on a Korean-Western mashup, according to Brandon. It isn't required to parallel western military practice.

I'll agree with that. They are feudal lords, but I have very little familiarity with Asian history and I don't like the subject, it doesn't interest me. But here's another question to consider, can we call those periods in Asian history strictly medieval? Calling it medieval just because it occurred in the same period is rather Eurocentric...and perhaps unfair to the Song Dynasty (for example) or the Ming Dynasty. But anyways, a lot of early centralizing started in similar ways to what Gavilar has done. It's never easy, they (the Highprinces) would rather stay as they are, but that doesn't mean that it's not being forced to centralize even though they would rather not do so. That was actually a pretty usual tendency, would you like to give up power if you were a Highprince? Would you like someone treating you like you're a kid/new recruit that needs to be whipped into shape? Do you think that when similar things happened in Europe that feudal lords were happy about their kings/rulers consolidating power, conquering and demanding tribute and then taking away their rights and powers over their lands? Dalinar is arguably acting like a Ren/Reformation/Late Medieval era absolute monarch...even though he has a good reason for it and isn't the king.

That said, though, the early Renaissance period was arguably still medieval...and a part of the High Middle Ages. Recently, a lot of historians say that the eras like Iron Age, Medieval, Renaissance, Enlightenment (which you need to add, arguably this is the period between late Medieval/Ren and Industrial, it lasted about 200 years), and such aren't really that concrete. They're fluid...just like Roshar's history/culture/etc is! That's one of the things that makes it's interesting, I think, seeing that it developed a culture/history that really isn't that similar to anything on earth (even when we say it's like Chinese/Korean/Western mesh, like some anime-thing in book form, it's really not that alike at all). I compare it to European trends because that's what I'm more familiar with, and no, I really don't care if that makes me Eurocentric and such a "horrible" person because I specialized in a different area of history (modern history, particularly U.S. and Britain)...

Also, forgot gender roles. At least women can chose something other than getting married, though I think that their culture is somehow (ironically) more sexist than ours was despite that women can technically do more things than helping their husbands run their business/farms, being housewives, and having babies (or becoming nuns/etc; this comment is somewhat snarky). The ideas of men and women spheres are so well defined on Roshar it may be in some ways worse for women (and men). At least we were never expected to eat just sweet food. Yuck. It's a little like the spheres in this book were mix with a blender than poured out into separate cups marked 'woman' and 'man'. Some of it makes sense, like the highest calling of men being that of a warrior (for some reason their whole religion makes me think...VIKINGSxJudeo-Christian beliefs), but I recall being somewhat surprised that women were scholars and that men were surgeons. It's an example of how their culture is more "advanced" but at the same time "backwards", since in the Middle Ages and into the Enlightenment period women were midwives (even though there were a few surgeons/doctors in the 18th century, this was usually in the women's sphere until the late 18th/early 19th) and men went to be scholars at universities (or were privately taught), if a woman was a scholar she was a nun (like a man who is a scholar is most likely an ardent on Roshar). 

Roshar is amazingly advanced in one area: medicine. Guess how long it took us to learn to wash our hands, even, after surgery? That happened in the 19th century. A lot of their techniques are more advanced in this area. They have no midwives, they have more medical knowledge than they should...

Another point too. Even if they have a scientific method, we might have not heard of it (considering that this would be known by women/ardents). Yes, we've met some scholars, but these scholars (Navani, Jasnah, and Shallan) don't really practice that form of science... Also, considering how much Sebarial knows about economics and manufacturing when he's planning to set up his little economy on the plains...well... They even have large standing armies, most European nations didn't have that until the 18th/19th century.

So really, here's my point. Roshar has some things that are more advanced than their "Iron Age"/Renaissance status. This isn't that shocking, the way technology advances on a world with Investiture is different because they have an extra source of power (Stormlight) and their culture is different. These two things effect what they discover and when. So, I'm not sure the traditional methods of measuring their society is the best one...Another point too, when considering a culture medieval/renaissance/enlightenment, it really depends where you're looking. In the cities of Roshar, it might be more Renaissance/Enlightenment (without the gunpowder and certain other advancements), but in the country side it would appear to be more medieval. I'd really need a good bit more stuff on Kholinar to know how medieval their society is, and we haven't really gotten that yet...

Nightlight. That is hilarious. Have an upvote.

 

I really do hope Nightblood gets some character development. People talk about him as just "psychopathic talking sword", but I think he could have an awesome character arc of his own. I would love to see him treated as a character in his own right.

Oh, a present, thanks good sir. ;P

Beyond clever puns, though, I think that Nightblood really comes off as psychopathic because of it's nature. This said though I think that the Nahel bond doesn't only give cognitive entities sentience and physical presence, it also gives them personhoid (humanity, so to speak). Meaning that Nightblood might develop more as a character now that he can form a Nahel bond. He can become more "human", and therefore more dynamic and perhaps more aware of what his command phrase means. My biggest question at this point concerning NB is who he can bond with and if this would bonding would be limited to people with Endowment's investiture...