Mistdork

Hi all,

 

This is my first post on the forums, but I've been keeping a close eye on you guys for a while now. I recently spent an evening with Brandon when he came to London for his signing and got to ask him a few questions. One might be quite relavant here  (I will try to remember word for word as best I can).

 

I asked: "Is the reason Sel is hard to get to via shadesmar, because that in shadesmar it is all underwater or beacuse of some other geographical reason".

 

Brandon: "Good question, but no. You're on the right lines though"

 

Tbh I'm not closer to figuring it out but you guys might have better luck.

Hmmm, I was under the impression that the problem with worldhopping from and to Sel was related to whatever caused the Chasm line to appear. The Chasm seems like it could have been a long term result of the Shattering of Devotion and Dominion; an event that probably caused a considerable amount of strain on the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms (and probably still does). The Spiritual and Cognitive strain caused by the Shattering of these Shards would have to be expressed in the Physical Realm, and that's why the Chasm may have eventually appeared. So, yeah, its a geographical relationship, but kind of a backwards from what you were thinking (perhaps, etc, I'd be totally willing to talk about this more in a different topic...).

Spook is, in my opinion, no more main character than Vasher is, so I think we shouldn't focus on the... mainness of the potential worldhoppers.

 

As for Honor's Perpendicularity, it makes me think of the cross product of two vectors, which is perpendicular to both of them (e.g. the cross product of a vector along the x-axis and a vector along the y-axis would give you a vector along the z-axis). So, if we are going there, it suggests a change of direction, a transcendence of planes - a path away from the Cognitive Realm.

Err, my knowledge of Calculus and Linear Algebra doesn't stretch that far, Argent. Could you try a different metaphor? I'm unlikely to understand this topic just with a simple google search...(thanks, btw).

Are you suggesting that the Perpendicularity is a place where there's some kind of permanent secondary "vector" (such as the z-axis in your cross product picture) that is formed at this location?

In response to all the spike farmers awesome people talking about infinite power using Hemalurgy and such things: No matter what though, Hemalurgy seems like it would be painful (even when you don't kill the person), and I'm certain that there would be many who would think that creating a farm would be...immoral, to the say the least. Also, considering Harmony's Intent, I think that out-of-control spiking might cause him to send someone to restore the harmony, so...despite that Hemalurgy could be consider OP, so the biggest deterrent for theoretical spike farms might (possibly) be Sazed.

Ah, he thought that the questioner was referring to the Alloy supplement for the Mistborn Adventure Game? (they used "Full Feruchemist" in it).

 

EDIT: Well that was fast. Someone give one of Brandon's old posts an upvote for me.

 

Source:

 

Kurkistan:

Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?

 

Brandon Sanderson:

No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead. 

 

Kurkistan:

Thanks!

 

I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)... 

 

Brandon Sanderson:

Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.)

 

Kurkistan:

Thank you! 

 

*Now to create a society of infinite Compounding Feruchemists/Allomancers/Hemalurgists in the Mistborn Adventure Game...*

 

Hmmm, so that means that you could actually create a Mistborn-farm for Hermalurgists if all those Mistborns also happened to be Gold Ferrings. How exciting. *evil grin*

Coinshot 11
Lurcher 14
Tineye 6
Soother 10
Aluminum Gnat 9
Duralumin Gnat 8
 
Nicroburst 20
Thug 20

So, does this mean that we're spiking the mistings and making Obligators? (I like that idea...)

Jasnah the Explorer.

No, she's Jasnah Jones! She goes on fabulous adventures in search of legendary lost cities and soon, the "holy" soulcaster/dawnshard/thing...!

http://exmakina.tumblr.com/post/90134845128/indyjasnah-jones-3-thanks-to-raven-for-the-idea

7. Can someone accidentally Wordhop?

 

Yes. 

 

(He thought for a moment first and then said that. I think its more complicated.)

I find the idea that someone can accidentally worldhop rather...fascinating,

Welcome to our theory laden corner of the interwebs, can I interest you in a spike cooke?

As long as you make sure to spike it...

I think your safest bet is to not take any of the drinks or snacks offered to you...they're usually Invested in strange ways.

I think to get this to work though, you might need to have some limits on how much a spirit/entity can effect the world without a deal or diagram. It has to be worth it (as in, they get more powerful the more worshipers they have or the more deals that they are able to make)...even spirits have to deal in magical economics!

I'm surprised he didn't RAFO you outright, Weiry...

Oh, right. I remember that was an option too. I figured I could always ask him to answer something during a signing. Plus, I will probably see him at a signing before the other three, so there's that too...

 

But on topic.I think I can buy the "Stormfather is Tanavast's cognitive shadow" theory. It makes sense and it fits the facts. My only hesitation comes from how unexplored cognitive shadows are through the published Cosmere novels. Would Brandon use the Stormfather, who describes himself as a Honor's spren to Dalinar, as a means to introduce the concept? My concern comes from how similar cognitive shadows and spren are - so putting both in the same book, and having the first shadow we encounter describe himself as a spren - even though that might be just for Dalinar's sake - might be... I don't know, confusing to anyone not lurking around the 17th Shard.

 

Am I making sense here? My counter-argument is meta, I guess.

That's why I've begun to mentally list cognitive shadows, spren, seons, skaz, and Nightblood as cognitive entities that can be differentiated according to world and the effects the local Shards/Investiture have on them. On Roshar, one could expect a cognitive entity (especially one that has a Splinter and a whole lot of religious belief behind it) to act like a spren due to the presence of Cultivation cultivating ideas...even if it's technically not a cognitive transformative entity.

He hasn't really talked much about how shadows of self fit in his plans that I have seen, but I kinda thought it was basically finished, only because the sample chapter seems so polished.

I really want to say that it's coming out next year...but with all the Stormlight he's been...reading...I feel that it might be later (it's like he's cheating on Rithmatist and Shadows of Self with the Stormlight Archive! Oh noes! I just shipped Brandon with his books!)

i don't think worldhopping is based on aons, as there is no similar power with other magical systems - allomancy, awakening, forging - and yet we have users of all those systems able to become worldhoppers. So I don't think it requires specific powers. I think more likely it requires raw investiture that has to be manipulated in some other way

I never claim that this was the case though, only that the clue was related to an Aon Raoden has misinterpreted (thus why this topic contains a lot of stuff about Aons, since that's where we're starting from). However, I'm no longer sure if this clue will tell us how it works cosmere-wide or if its more related to how Aons (or the Dor) on Elantris allow worldhopping. While we can expect it to have some similarity to these methods, these methods might seem quite different until more books are release.

A couple of thoughts:

• Aon Tia is weird. In fact, Aons are weird. Every magic system we have seen relies at least partially on the Spiritual Ideals (~ Platonic shapes) and cognitive concepts*. When Surgebinders and Feruchemists / gFerrings heal, they restore their bodies to how they think of themselves, to their cognitive identity, if you will. When Returned come back, they assume a shape that's similar to the local idea of perfection. What I am getting at is that both of those are very flexible forms of healing - so why is Aonic healing so awfully specific? You make one small mistake and everything goes to hell. With Aon Tia, you get your numbers off by just an inch and you end up with half of your foot encased in solid rock. Why is the Dor so intolerant, why doesn't it implement the same cognitive correction mechanisms as the other magic systems? I was going to guess it is because the Selish Shards were Splintered, but Raoden's knowledge about the Aon Dor comes from the past, possibly from the time when Aona was still kicking it around - and the Dor was still unforgiving back then. So it's got to be something else (possibly even the fact that Elantris was Brandon's first published book).

It's what happens when computer sciences are applied to magic...if my brother made a magic system, it would be AonDor! ;D

Yes, it is weird, but it's so crazy as it sounds... In a way, what a Elantrian does when they draw an Aon is that they're creating a symbol based on their thoughts (this is what I want it to do) in the physical realm... They're also creating a really specific idea (heal this body part; travel this far; bring in AonDor from the Spiritual Realm), and, perhaps the more specific the ideas, the more specific the Aons have to be. In a way, Awakening works similarly, the better the Awakener is at imaging/visualizing his command, the better the command will be performed by the Awakened object...as long as the Command is pretty precise and doesn't lend itself to a meaning that is too complex (for the most part...)

However, Aon Ien can also be drawn as a simple Aon without specific modifiers. Raoden did this once (at the party where the old man dies...because of his ineptitude)... However, the Aon was able to heal some, it was just not able to heal well. Meaning that Aon Ien can be used for unspecified healing. How powerful this healing might be hasn't been revealed post-Reod, but it should be quite a bit more powerful than it was. This does mean that even non-modified Aons should result in something happening, though...so, what I think might happen is that it might create a junction because it was not modified or it could be modified to create said junction. (Though, creating/having a bond with an Seon might be important too...)

(Also, now that I think about it, it was Raoden that said that the Aon Tae on the stone device they found to enter the place where the pool is located. It could've met "opening" or possibly signalfied a "junction" between the realms...which is a type of opening, I guess! But this seems much to simplestic... D: That is, the Pool is a place where the Cognitive and Physical Realms are close together because the Pool has a stronge presence in both Realms. Meaning, it is an opening just not of the sort that Raoden thought. Now, that's a way that would help explain aspects of worldhopping in every world, though, we've kind of figured that out already...) xD

(This thread is mainly for the discussion of the hint and trying to use it to figure out the Elantris worldhopping puzzle...)

I was going to revive the Sel worldhopping topic http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2515-sel-and-worldhopping/ , but since it was last posted in way back in January of 2013, I thought that perhaps it might not be wise... Sometimes necromatic powers don't work that well, I guess (or I need to learn the one-Breath command for Lifeless again)!

---

So, a few days ago, Brandon revealed that apparently Raoden had misinterpreted one of the Aons.

 

 

Start with the big one - Brandon threw us a bone on what the big world-hopping hint in Elantis could be (since nobody's gotten it yet): Raoden has misinterpreted one of the Aons.

(source)

On page two of this topic, Argent mentions that he thinks that it's related to the Aon Tia, and that Aon Tia doesn't need distance, only a destination. This is based on an old theory of his (one I've read, but, at the moment, can't remember where the link is), and might explain why this is such an important hint and will help us to better understand worldhopping...(and yes, worldhopping might be my major. I have three topics somewhat related to it!)

I think that the Aon misinterpreted is either Aon Rao (kind of was the idea behind my one ill-thought out theory a few weeks back) or Aon Tia. Perhaps, even a combination of the two. I agree with Argent that it is probably Aon Tia, though, here are my reasons:

1. Aon Tia is one of the few Aons that Raoden really takes time to interpret/explain to the readers. This is first done in Chapter 25 (343-346) and later on when he travels to rescue Sarene. Both times, he added modifiers that specify location and the person himself. What Raoden says specific is this:

 

"You have to be very precise about the distance it is to send you. If you tell it to transport you exactly ten feet, it will do so-no matter what happens to be ten feet away. You could easily materialized in the middle of the wall." (345)

The book he was getting this information (on the AonDor) only really gave him hints on what to do and how Aons (like Tia) worked. Now, if it is Tia, it might be just destination that is needed (as Argent suggests), but it might also be modification based.

If it's modification based...we have to consider what modifiers Raoden thinks he needs. He thinks he needs one that specified that it only should work on him (which seems right) and distance specification. But, Aon Tia means travel, what would happen if one just drew Aon Tia without a specific destination (where would you go, it seems unlikely to be nowhere), or, if one added different modifiers that programmed Tia to bring one into the Cognitive Realm/Across the Cosmere a certain distance. Really, if one wanted to have fun with Tia, you could even use the distance modifiers to travel LIGHT YEARS, if you could just figure out the correct distance and some other things of the sort!

If it is Aon Tia, the modifiers could be another Aon...such as Aon Rao or the Aon related to cognitive things, Aon Mea. However, what ever the specific modifiers would have to be for this to work is still unknown at best, if this is even the one Brandon was talking about...

2. It could also be Aon Rao. However, despite it's prevalence in the book (since Elantris and the surrounding landscape is AonDor), I feel that it's still unlikely. If you can think about it, Raoden doesn't understand it well or how it works though, so there is that, I guess...

3. It could also be the two Aons that are on the device they used to enter the area where the Pool is. However, it's Galladon who sees these Aons (Aon Rao, perhaps, and Aon Tae [352]). The later, Aon Tae, is the one they push to open the "secret" passage. Anyway, while this could be it and Raoden could've misinterpreted what Aon Tae really meant in this instance and what effect it could have on the pool (or even as a modifier of Aon Rao), I don't think this is the secret, and the only reason I even brought it up was because it was related to the Pool...

Anyway, those are just some suggestions about what this WoB could mean... Since this was only a clue (and really, one that isn't that obvious...I think), but now, we can prove how good we are at figuring stuff out! I trust that now we can figure this out...perhaps in less than a month!

I hate spoiler policy in this forum...

 

Elantris

How is that an in-your-face hint!? Were we supposed to catch Raoden misinterpreting the Aon? Because I am so starting a reread with a notepad at my side ASAP if there is a mystery to be unravelled. Tia ("travel") was pretty straight-forward, I think, and Rao was the other big Aon covered in the book.

 

Unless Raoden misinterpreted Tia in a more... weird way, deluding himself into thinking that he needs to specify distance to his destination, when it is, in fact, possible to just provide destination. That would so prove one of my theories spot-on. You guys won't hear the end of it.

Welcome!

Or you sure you're not a stick? I think that you would make a wonderful messianic figure mascot NEW MEMBER for the Church of the Stick. After all, it's in your user name!

(Pfft, Voidus, you have to threaten people with stick in their name by Soulcasting them into Fire, not spiking them. I mean, Soulcasting StickofDestiny some jam. Definitely jam, it's completely safe and never poisoned! *poisons jam*)

Except if Mraize is the recipient then he is a dragon... And that doesn't make much sense.

Except if dragons are shapeshifters...no, that seems to corny (and yes, it has been done before, too). xD

2. I think it's a combination of many things. The main thing is that big publishing houses change slowly. I actually started a thread about female authors in fantasy few weeks back and we concluded that its probably a publisher thing - the publishers won't publish epic fantasy written by females. It's got to be romantic urban fantasy or YA fantasy.

Maybe the publishers think the majority of fantasy fans are male and would therefore not enjoy a female villain? Maybe male writers don't like the idea of writing a female villain? I don't know. Just spitting out random thoughts here.

Because a woman never made it writing about dragons. Though, there are still problems with the books she wrote (for the modern-day reader, though, not at the time she was writing), I guess publishing houses have all forgotten about The Dragonriders of Pern, nowadays.

But yes, I feel the same way. It's why I posted this topic. It's also, I think, a problem with our society in general, what would people think if a best-selling novel had a female-villain? Would that make the author sexist (if it's a man) or would that somehow derail the feminist movement? "Girls need role models" after all (and so do guys, but this is a trend in reaching girl-audiences), and to make a villain out of a woman would certainly be counter-productive!

So, yes, I agree that publishing houses are part of the problem, and probably a lack of female authors too. I once bought a book written by a woman (who writes epic fantasies), but found her work wanting, but that may be because it was more of a romance, and I tend to not like reading books that are overly romantic. I have a low level of tolerance for that sort of thing. But perhaps most female authors feel that is what they can write/publish too... I would like to see more women in epic fantasy (or see Mary Robinette Kowal write something that isn't a fantasy based on Jane Austin/Regency England, especially after reading her short story in Shadows Beneath. I happen to have a problem with historical fiction/fantasy in general, though)...

 

That's not the same as having a female villain - I could argue that most of the Black Ajah are closer to the evil henchman stereotype than the villain one. Plus, none of them are really the Big Bad of the story.

 

Well, the big-bad of the story is the concept of evil, and an immortal being acting through proxies. Kind of hard to assign mortal genders to it (though they do refer to him as the "father of lies" and "he" pretty often, but I think that's more of a convenience in linguistics than a concession that "he" is male)

 

That and various female villains play the "big bad guy" of certain story arcs, such as the various female members of the forsaken. As far as the WoT story is concerned, this is about the best you can hope for in regards to "villains" actively participating in the story.

Having read the Wheel of Time, I do agree with you somewhat, though none of them quite fit. Sure, they were villains of their own arcs, but they were often co-villains with the other Forsaken, and, in some ways, not the most memorable ones either...though they fit better than most sometimes though, I think most of Jordan's women were antagonistic (this excludes Min and Moiraine...to an extent). That was being nice.

--

Anyway, I feel like I'm trying to capture the moon, a little.

So, since a lot of you are guys, how would you feel about reading a female antagonist/villain (it can be either a downright big bad or not, it really doesn't matter) in this genre?

And to everyone else: what do you think would you like to see in a female antagonist? What traits would make her memorable?

I rather hope people don't complain that I'm...errr...complaining...but anyways. On to the show.

We all know that Brandon's books (particularly his Cosmere books, I can't address his other books, but I mainly want to talk about epic fantasy anyways) have strong and polarizing female characters. This is wonderful, women like Vin, Jasnah, Shai, and Siri are fine characters, and yes, Shallan is alright too, although she isn't personally my favorite. But, these strong characters are...well...all on the side of "good".

It's funny. since, that's what I have a problem with. All the women (generally speaking) are on the side of good. Most of the villains (particularly the major ones) are men/male, and while it might seem odd, I have a bit of a problem with this. It might be due to genre, but I would like to see an intriguing female villain, or even a super-powered one...just because, I can't exactly remember when a female was the "big(ger) bad" of an epic fantasy novel (think Ruin sized, I guess). A part of me finds this...unnerving, strange as that may sound.

All I really want to see, though, is a well-written/powerful/cool female villain. So, a few topics of discussion for you guys:

1. Do you feel there's a lack of (well-written/powerful) female villains in epic fantasy, and if so, what do you think contributes to this. (Perhaps I'm not reading the right stuff?)

2. Is this perhaps linked to audience expectations? Why can't women be evil (and "strong") when men can be?

3. Finally, in the Cosmere novels (this is why this post is marked for spoilers) do you think their may be a problem that there really are few (I can only think of that Mistborn-chick in Finale Empire at the moment) female villains? Yes, this what got me thinking about this topic in the first place, and since Brandon often seems to like reversals, I'm a little surprised this is the case...

Yes, I kind of realize this topic makes me into a super-feminist weirdo, but yeah. Also, if this needs to be moved, that's fine. I wasn't exactly sure where to put it...

Judge, Jury, and Executioner: Practical Lawkeeping, taught by Prof Miles Hundredlives I'm stoopid and dead  Show some respect, Wayne  Well, he is, ain't he?  He was a good man, once  And now he's a good bullet sponge!  Taught by Guest Lecturers Waxillium Ladrian and Marasi Harms but mostly Head Master Sergeant General Professor Doctor Wayne "Handsome and Dashing" Justicemaker Sliderking

Someone ought to tell Prof Wayne that Comic Sans is not nearly as comic as he thinks it is!

Also, Awesomeness 2000: Taught by "Professor" Lift and her not-so-awesome Voidbringer, Wyndle!  Learning how to use Awesomeness for all your Edgedancer needs...(and how to touch spren, asking Nightwatcher for a boon may or may not be required of all students).

I musta missed that. I will have to do some digging.

 

EDIT:

 

Well... after some digging, I can find nothing. So... no idea.

Here's the topic where Felt the Worldhopper of House Venture was discovered (or the possible worldhopper, that is). http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7365-felt-the-worldhopper/?hl=%2Bfelt+%2Bworldhopper

Its a good point about Jasnah.. but i would have probably thought the same thing about Vasher till we saw him on Roshar.. Anythings possible..

Nope, Warbreaker occurs quite a bit (about three hundred years or so) before SA, and Nightblood, as a direct sequel to Warbreaker also occurs quite a bit beforehand as well. Mine you, it means that SA contains spoilers for Nightblood (it means both Vasher and Nightblood survived the sequel...), but Vasher may have been a bit into worldhopping before that Warbreaker. I mean, he knows a bit about Investiture (from his conversation with Vivienne on BioChromatics) and he was already 300 years old by that time...(fun fact, he's the first characters to name-drop Investiture in book...though not necessarily the first in the time-line).

Anyway, it's just really surprising we didn't spot Vasher as a potential worldhopper before WoR was released...*shrug*

Nice one- flowers on Nalthis...

When you eat the wrong flower on Nalthis, you go hop! (Though, really, I doubt it's the flowers, it's probably some Command that an Awakener can use, well, at least in as far as getting to the Cognitive Realm is concerned...)

*coughs*

Felt from Mistborn is also a possible worldhopper in WoR. Also, the Kandra worldhopper is in WoR too...

I can actually understand why people think Jasnah may be a worldhopper, but I think that if she is, she will be one in the future, if at all. She's too involved with events on Roshar to really consider going on a pleasure trip around the Cosmere, so even if she technically knows how to worldhop, I don't think she's really all that interested in doing so right now...

He wouldn't be in the story and I wouldn't mind at all

Right now, I think that is how much impact he is supposed to have on the story. He is supposed to be an extra, a bonus. Just an easter egg for those that are willing to watch out for him, but not much of a distraction for those that know nothing of him.

I like Hoid as Wit, before there was Wit, I didn't think much of Hoid either, but as Wit he's arguably more than an Easter Egg, even if he's only a minor character. But I agree, half of the WoBs seem to be about Hoid, probably because we're curious, and by asking questions about Hoid we can also learn more about the cosmere/investiture (sometimes)...

Personally, I don't especially love Shallan. There's no real rational reason for my dislike, though, when I read WoK I found her dreadful. Now, I just find her...alright. Probably by book five or something I'll actually like her (if she lives that long, I don't trust Sanderson. He once made me like a character I hated forever...then killed her. That's just not nice.) And I also think that Renarin's fandom is a little over the top (though, I like his character, personally), but if we talk about him too much, we'll summon Feather. Do we really want to summon her?

Well, that just gets into deconstructing fairy tales - for possibly the creepiest deconstruction ever, see Neil Gaiman's Snow, Glass, Apples.

Or actually reconstructing them, many fairy tales are rather dark, just like the original Rapunzel or other stories collected/edited by the Brothers Grimm. There's a reason why bowdlerization's a thing. ;P

Shards are banned from teaching because their classes tend to conflict.

Man, Ati's not teaching Destruction 101 again? This makes me sad, he has so much experience. Is he on sabbatical again? It's like he hates this job or something despite being super good at Ruining things. D;

Oh well, at least I can take Push and Pull with Kel and Vin...and that Awakening class, I heard that Professor Vasher likes to disguise himself as a Rosharan ardent half the time and teach people to wield Shardblades, make bad idioms, and how to jump off roofs! So much fun to be had...Or was that Shardblade Fighting 101? ;P