Seloun

The other quote on this subject: It's possible there might be other reasons besides being dead that might cause the delay or a different delay (Syl says 'primarily' due to the spren being dead, and qualifies the instant summon with 'when I'm here with you', both of which imply there may be other conditions that would cause a delay). There appears to be no range limitation on the dead Shardblades being summoned by the bearer (at least to common knowledge): So at the very least it's possible to summon a Blade from across a battlefield, and possibly beyond. Dalinar doesn't think of any restrictions, which leads me to believe that as far as Dalinar knows, there may be no restriction. It's worth noting that when Dalinar bonded the 'fake' Honorblade, he was able to summon it from where ever Amaram had taken it. It's may be that if Kaladin lent Syl to someone else far enough away that it might still take ten heartbeats or at least not be an instant summon, or if e.g. Syl was not in the Physical at the time that it might take longer.

Honor appears to be associated with the top of the vertical axis of the chart, while Cultivation appears to be the bottom of the vertical axis (Windrunners and Stonewards are the most 'Honor' associated Orders, IMO; this is obliquely supported by the Recreance vision). I've also noticed the Physical/Cognitive 'array' going horizontally, but that seems less pronounced. I had a brief theory that the chart might actually be split into thirds (the top third being Spiritual, the left-bottom being Cognitive, and right-bottom being Physical) but the chart doesn't otherwise naturally break into thirds.

This is actually a very strong clue that Shallan and Kaladin's relationship will be important to the plot (note though that the relationship doesn't necessarily have to be romantic in nature; it could e.g. be reflected as a division in the KR). There are at least three points in WoR where this could have been easily resolved: the 4-Shardbearer duel, the chasm scene, and the confrontation with Amaram. Note the wording Kaladin uses to challenge Amaram: Remember Shallan is in the stands and is listening. Kaladin says 'stole from' him but does not mention what it was (even obliquely), because if he'd referenced what he stole, it'd resolve the Helaran issue pretty quickly. During the chasm scene, a rationale has to be provided as to why Kaladin tells Shallan everything except for his role in Helaran's death: Kaladin's phrasing is pretty peculiar, since there could have been any number of ways he could have given a hint as to what occurred; in particular he says nothing about him or his men protecting Amaram, which is odd since that's Kaladin's entire shtick. Finally, during Dalinar's confrontation with Amaram, Shallan and Adolin basically pass right by before the event: Dalinar can't really avoid referencing the Blade and Plate, so Shallan ends up out of range for the discussion. While not necessarily a requirement, it wouldn't have been odd for Dalinar to have brought Adolin along given Adolin's behavior at the prison and given that Adolin is practically right by both of them at the time. Adolin already believes Kaladin (prison scene) and while we don't have direct evidence that Dalinar is aware of that, it's likely that Dalinar has at least some idea given Adolin's actions. So it's odd that Dalinar doesn't bring Adolin - but doing so would also bring Shallan, which would again potentially resolve the Helaran issue too early. If Shallan had an opportunity to learn and talk to Kaladin about Helaran's death in WoR, it would almost certainly have been a non-event. Consider what she thinks about Amaram: She's able to provide justifications to herself why Amaram might not have been a murderer (and that Helaran's death might have just been self-defense) despite not really having any rapport with Amaram. It's hard to imagine that, given an adequate opportunity to explain (Kaladin was not just defending himself, but his men - literally his purpose in life) that Shallan would not understand. So clearly, the 'timebomb' is being held in reserve for when Kaladin isn't around to explain the situation. The only one remaining who knows what actually occurred by the end of WoR is Amaram (though tons of people - all of Bridge 4 at least, Dalinar, Navani, plus probably other bridgemen - know what Amaram 'stole' from Kaladin was the Shardblade and Plate) who is unlikely to provide a clear answer. However, the 'timebomb' does not serve a purpose unless there's something to bomb (note that the fact that Shallan thought Amaram killed Helaran had zero plot implications, because they don't have much interaction or relationship); so the fact the 'bomb' exists is a good reason to expect something for the bomb to go off on.

Syl doesn't really get that much more intelligible during the course of Kaladin's slavery before arriving at the Shattered Plains . What little intelligence she has is due to the scattered honorable acts Kaladin apparently did during his backstory (helping the other slaves out). The big turning point is the scene where Kaladin is considering suicide at the Honor chasm: Kaladin refers to the slaves he attempted to help before finally giving up on several occasions throughout TWoK, which presumably is part of why Syl is able to speak at all. But there's a huge difference between Syl before and after the Honor chasm scene, as noted by Syl herself: Given the enormous change (over the period of just one day, no less) I don't think there's really a lot to be explained here: Kaladin's actions during Araman's army and his various good deeds during the early part of his slavery is what gives Syl just enough sentience to speak (but not really understand anything); it's Kaladin's pushing through his despair that really makes Syl intelligent.

People who are broken and have the necessary attributes are probably a pretty small minority (how many Kaladins are available in the series so far?).. All of the modern Radiants are fairly exceptional people. Being 'broken' also seems to require fairly significant trauma, to the point that I don't think most young adults in a non-wartime environment would qualify. This would especially be the case if the KR were particularly effective at protecting humanity. Being broken may also be a matter of degree; someone who is more 'broken' may be easier to bond or may be stronger. The hardest thing for theories on the Recreance to explain, in my mind, is why the Radiants chose to kill their spren rather than themselves. Since the world is not littered with Shardblades, there must be some means in which spren get 'recycled' (either go back to Cognitive or whatever) when a Radiant dies 'normally'; this might just be the bond breaks without killing the spren when the Radiants die, or maybe there's some ritual, etc. The point is that there must have been *some* way for Radiants to stop being Radiants without killing their spren; yet they specifically chose that route. That suggests to me that killing the spren was not just a byproduct, but (at least one of) the goal.

OP question: What's going to happen in Book 3 (in particular around Hearthstone)? My thesis: Kaladin will learn to accept letting go of patients/soldiers as his father suggested. He will accept that not everyone requires his protection, and should be allowed to risk themselves like he does to protect other people. The essence of my argument is as follows: - Kaladin will undergo character development like Book 1 and Book 2. - During the penultimate scene of Book 1 and Book 2, Kaladin speaks one of the Words for Windrunners. This will probably happen again. - Speaking the Words for Windrunners implies Kaladin comes closer to whatever the Windrunner ideal is. - He has to go through character development because he's lacking the particular attribute that the Words for the book covers at the beginning of the book. In TWoK, this was accepting he could make a difference. In WoR, this was (possibly controversially) accepting that Elhokar deserved protection. - One of Kaladin's known hang-ups is other people risking their lives (all the quotes from TWoK and WoR mentioned before). - Therefore, it is likely one of the attributes that are generally associated with Windrunners is related to that hang-up (otherwise, he could have already said the Words). - Since the issue is that Kaladin isn't willing to accept other people risking their lives even for a good cause, the 'attribute' is likely being okay with people risking their lives for a good cause. - This attribute seems related to being a good military commander, and seems associated with the Windrunners being well-known for their squires. - Therefore, one of the Windrunner attributes will turn out to be some variation of 'letting people protect other people even at the risk of their own lives'. Since this fits neatly into his father concern about Kaladin's maturity in being a surgeon, this will be the lesson Kaladin learns through his journey through Hearthstone (this is the end of the argument proper). Corollary: - Since on the Surgebinding chart Windrunners and Edgedancers are mirrored across the horizontal symmetry, and since I've postulated that the opposition lines are reflective of real behavioral differences (e.g. Lightweavers and Windrunners are mirrored across the origin and are differentiated by their attitude towards honesty among other things), let us consider what sort of behavioral differences may be indicated by the horizontal mirroring. - We know from Darkness and the WoR Epigraph on Edgedancers that they're 'not the most demanding' and 'concerned with small-minded things'. Yes, Darkness's comment is pejorative. However, it is the only primary source we have at all. So there is almost certainly a grain of truth in the statement; my interpretation is that Edgedancers were probably generally more focused on the small-scale (personal-scale) over the grand strategic scale. Essentially, they would tell you that 'big things are made of little things' and that little things mattered. - As noted from the original thesis, Windrunners may generally worry about the bigger picture (the main argument, again, is that Kaladin does not do this well as of yet). - So I hypothesize that the horizontal mirroring in the Surgebinder diagram has to do with scope. If this is true, then we should expect the following: - Skybreakers should be focused on the bigger scope (upholding laws) while Dustbringers should be focused on the smaller scope (vigilantism?) - Bondsmiths should be focused on the bigger scope (kingship? priestly?) while Truthwatchers should be focused on the smaller scope (individual relationships?) - Lightweavers and Stonewards... I'm not so sure fits as well. Maybe something to do with scope of inspiration (personal focused for Lightweavers, on a larger scale for Stonewards?) - It's certainly possible the horizontal mirroring may indicate a different relationship (or it may purely be aesthetic); the point of the hypothesis is to provide potentially testable predictions (in particular what the KR Orders are 'generally' like). Again, I'm not arguing that Kaladin will become the leader of all armies or that even he will lead any army (while that may be the case, that is not the focus of the argument). What I am arguing is 1) how Kaladin's character is likely to develop and 2) as a corollary, what that may say about the nature of the KR orders.

Seems reasonable. I don't think the fabrials ultimately disprove that spren do not in of themselves cause their associated phenomena, but the relationship implied by the fabrials seem to suggest at that very least, there is a way to invert the casual relationship between spren and their phenomena. That in turn seems to imply the possibility of a feedback cycle - phenomena -> spren -> more phenomena. Possibly interesting implications (related to spren reproduction? Are fabrials essentially the equivalent of forced KR bonds?).

That's a good point. I'm not sure that it works exactly in that manner, though, since there are reducer fabrials as well as the augmenters; the augmenter fabrials could be explained just as you said, but it's unclear how e.g. a pain reducing fabrial would work in that sense (what is the spren for lack of pain?). Also, the conjoiner, reverser and alarm fabrials don't seem to have any obvious spren analogues. It seems likely that there's something more involved besides just sticking a spren in a bottle with stormlight to make the fabrials work. Still, augmenter fabrials do seem suspiciously like spren creating their associated phenomena. The main example, though, is that heating fabrial Navani installs; this fabrial doesn't seem to actually create a flame, but instead seems to augment heat. If the associated spren was a flamespren, it seems like we'd expect it to actually create a fire - but that does not appear to be how the fabrial actually works.

Darkness specifically attributes focus on individual details to Edgedancers (which is really where this idea originated): Combining with the WoR epigraph on Edgedancers suggests that Edgedancers tend to be pretty easy going people who are primarily focused on the personal scale (but fearsome when roused). Kaladin spends all of TWoK and WoR (including much of his flashbacks) in command of something. In WoR, he is in command of a unit that consists of at least a thousand members; I don't think the technical aspects of commanding a large military force is really an issue for Kaladin. As Kaladin himself points out, however, and as mentioned in my previous post, Kaladin still has trouble 'letting go' and letting people risk themselves for important reasons. However, the entire point of that is that this is a _failing_ of Kaladin's in terms of being an archetypical Windrunner, which is why I suggest this is how he'll develop in Book 3. Yes, Kaladin has this issue; that doesn't mean the archetypical Windrunner has the same issue. Suggesting Windrunners tend to behave one way and Edgedancers tend to behave in another way is not synonymous with saying Kaladin behaves one way and Adolin behaves in another. Clearly the individual Radiant is going to be distinct from others of the same order; however, it's likely that there were sufficient commonalities that you could make reasonably accurate generalizations. This is what both Darkness and the WoR epigraphs suggest, and since KR by definition exemplify a specific cognitive attribute set that attract a particular kind of spren, it doesn't seem surprising that KR of a given order would tend to behave in similar ways.

This is basically my point. If we assume greatshells and parshendi are both native to Roshar (or at least part of the originally developed life on Roshar), it seems quite reasonable to think that they have similar lifecycles. I don't think chasmfiends are the equivalent of dullform (they do appear to have spren already bonded to them) but I do think that their pupating is the equivalent of Parshendi standing out in the storm to bond with a spren: (em mine) This is the reason why the chasmfiends pupate on top of the plateaus; they can't be in 'cover' much in the same way Parshendi cannot bind while inside buildings. Also, as mentioned in my previous post, the 'lifecycle of a chull' diagram suggests a similar behavior for chull as well, which I think suggests that his is a commonality of all Rosharian native life (the base creature bonds to a spren, which provides a symbiotic personality and access to some amount of Investure; the creatures throughout their lifecycle go through different but fixed variety of spren, which I speculate is also the means by which the spren reproduce). The Everstorm essentially subverts this standard mechanism by creating Odiumspren bonds instead.

My feeling as to the big 'lesson' that Kaladin will learn in book 3 (assuming it follows the basic patterns of talking with Hoid -> rationalizing an issue -> developing as KR) is that sometimes he has to let people risk themselves to protect other people (e.g. 'I will protect those that cannot protect themselves' -> 'I will let those that can protect themselves protect others'). We see shadows of this in TWoK and WoR already, e.g. And near the end of WoR: I could see an arc where Kaladin finds himself spreading too thin trying to protect everyone from everything at Hearthstone and Kholinar, only to fail because he can't concentrate himself at the important places. Lirin is a good candidate to help him learn the lesson. Also, I think this fits well with the concept of Windrunner squires; it seems likely they'll play a prominent role in the next book. This might be one of the ways Windrunners and Edgedancers may be 'mirrored' - While they both pursue similar goals, Windrunners are commanders, and have to look at the big picture, while Edgedancers are combat medics, and have to be focused on the immediate situation.

I don't quite follow the argument between the paragraphs; the first seems to suggest that spren are in fact caused by Physical phenomena, and not the other way around. Doesn't that answer the second question pretty directly? As far as I can tell, there appears to be no instances of spren actually causing what they're associated with (there are many, many counterexamples, while the only example Kaladin can provide are rotspren, which, given understanding of microbiotics, is easy to explain as a misconception).

If it became clear that some of the Knights were 'created' by the spren through bond-farming, it would potentially taint the entire enterprise, especially if the activities had been going on for some time or if the means of creating proto-Radiants were larger than individual in scope: Also, I'm not suggesting that Odiumspren directly went around breaking people and that was the cause of the Recreance; my suggestion is that Odium may have influenced otherwise 'normal' spren into thinking that this might be a good idea (either to have more KR or to ensure the survival of their species). WoR was written quite a bit after the Recreance: The first line also suggests that author did know, and thought it was common enough knowledge not to have to expound on it (though it's also possible the author did not know, and simply assumed it was something really bad).

Seems mostly supported by what the text suggests (except maybe #5). My main question would be: - If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one to hear it, does it make a spren? Or, is it actually accurate that all spren (or pre-spren) are created by sentient minds? I'd suggest that there are different kinds of spren, some which are tied to sentients (and thus require sentient beings to exist and/or reproduce) while others may spontaneously arise (or may require an observer, but not necessarily a sentient one). It's pretty clear that the other direction has to be true (it seems impossible to have e.g. gloryspren without something to understand what glory is). Also, the concept of the pre-spren seems at odds with the idea that everything exists on all Realms at the same time (barring the specific exception mentioned). Wouldn't pre-spren by definition not exist on the Physical? My general gut feeling was that the spren are Cognitive beings that exist independently of sentients, but require a 'template' from something that straddles the Physical and Cognitive to cross over into the Physical (could be objects or could be a creature). 'Crossing over' doesn't seem to actually remove the spren from the Cognitive (based on the experience of Shallan during her stick->fire fail) so crossing over might not actually be a good term for it (bleeding over?).

It's not necessarily Syl, Pattern or even necessarily a majority of the spren were directly involved in the bond-farming thing; it just requires some of the spren to have conspired to do so. In fact, my theory is that originally the bonds were all 'natural', but eventually some spren or group of spren hit on the idea of making more hosts (possibly due to Odium's influence). In many cases I would imagine the spren involved in 'breaking' the person wouldn't necessarily be the one that eventually bonded the person. The Knights would have killed their spren off because they would have felt betrayed. If they learned that their capacity to be bonded was due to a loss of a loved one (or whatever trauma) and that at least in some cases the spren were actually responsible for the trauma in the first place, they'd certainly feel betrayed. It's also possible that they did in fact try to record what happened; the Vorin church apparently destroyed or altered most of the records from that time: Since almost no one seems to know how KR were even bound in the first place, it seems reasonable to expect any information about how the bonds were formed or abused was similarly suppressed. I don't get the impression the Vanrial were set up by the KR, but instead formed by people who wanted the KR back. I don't think the KR were related to preservation of TWOK or any of the fabrials (I'm not sure why you get this impression - the artifacts could certainly be left over without intentionally preserved). The Shardblades and the Plate, perhaps - but that might be because the KR were in somewhat of a bind; they were personally betrayed but their goals were still beneficial to humanity (Voidbringers were definitely real and certainly seemed to be a threat to humans). So it's possible they intentionally left something to help humans protect themselves while washing their own hands of their powers. Alternatively, the spren may have arranged for world-wide events that caused sufficient trauma to keep the number of available potential bond candidate up (e.g. stirred up wars). Really any kind of activity that would have increased the number of potential bond candidates could be seen as a betrayal of the KR protecting humanity.

Given the way Parshendi change forms depending on the spren they're bonded to, I would imagine the greatshells behave the same way. The big, odd greatshell Kaladin and Shallan run into in the chasm has odd spren associated with it: Most likely, each stage of the greatshell's lifecycle is mediated by a type of spren in a symbiotic relationship. Much as when Estonai gets 'taken over' by the Odium-spren, a Voidbringer is likely a greatshell hijacked by an Odium-spren. Likewise, in the 'Life cycle of a chull' plate in WoR, it mentions that the best way to prevent a chull from pupating is to shelter it from a highstorm. It would also explain why the greatshells need to pupate on top of the chasms - they need access to the highstorm like the Parshendi for the bond, and the appropriate spren they're looking for may be only found in the chasm region.

So, again: 1) Kaladin does in fact 'stalk' Shallan surreptitiously. 2) Kaladin explains why he doesn't act on his feelings: Adolin is his friend and he doesn't want to screw it up for him (also, Kaladin is obviously not certain about Shallan's feelings and probably would feel awkward acting like a creeper). I'm not really sure why it's so impossible to believe that people can, in fact, control their actions despite their feelings. Just because Kaladin has feelings for Shallan doesn't mean he's going to whack Adolin or that it's his only concern in the world. That's not having 'feelings for' so much as being 'creepy obsessive stalker'. In particular it seems perfectly reasonable that Kaladin would be more concerned about his parents (whom he can in fact have feelings for at the same time as for Shallan) who are potentially in mortal danger than stalking Shallan. As for the other direction - not going to quote Shallan's description of Kaladin again. There is no other example of someone thinking of anyone else in similar terms anywhere in the series as far as I know; not even close. Again I'm not really sure how you arrive at your standard for 'having feelings for'. I don't see how those attributes apply to Adolin and Shallan (or pretty much anyone who has a relationship in the series, for that matter); doesn't the fact Adolin ends up saving Dalinar instead of Shallan at the bridge effectively contradict your standard? Or that Shallan does anything else besides hang out with Adolin? My point is not so much that that event proves Adolin doesn't have feelings for Shallan (or vice versa), but that your standards for 'having feelings for' seems pretty unreasonable. Going by this standard, Dalinar obviously never had feelings for Navani since he never killed Gavilar for her (heck, he married someone else). Also, to further clarify - My point is not that Kaladin is the poster boy for every heroine novel (I don't really agree with that statement to start with); my point is that this is Shallan's description of Kaladin (this is also what 'Adolin is the nice guy' phrase means: it's how Shallan views Adolin based on her own words). That is how she thinks of him.

Regarding the pouch composition: I agree that the distribution is likely preferentially weighted towards chips (probably Zipfian; I would argue for something like 9-3-1 if this was critical) but given the amount of uncertainty we're already dealing with (what is the relative content of each type of sphere? how charged are they really? what is the variation between spheres? how many spheres are there in a pouch? does the gem type matter?) the specific distribution of the sphere types is probably not terribly important. The main significant assumption is that the distribution in the pouch is probably 'similar' (for some value of similar) to the 5 sphere pouch. Essentially I'm not saying they're mostly marks so much as that there's some idealized 'average' sphere when it comes to stormlight capacity. 'Small fortune' is certainly not much to go on; mainly it sets a likely lower bound on the number of spheres. We do know the spheres in the pouch are almost certainly of relatively lower denomination, since the most expensive spheres are likely turned in (to hide keeping the other spheres, as Kaladin suggests) and because the moderately expensive spheres are probably the ones smuggled out via the arrow pouch (since they are limited in the number of spheres they can smuggle out). So a 'small fortune' of spheres is probably significantly bigger than 10, which is why I provided a order-of-magnitude guess at about 50. The conversations are in fact quite different, and the loss is likely affected by the factors you mentioned (and others besides). Again, the exact value is not really the point (since it's quite impossible to generate in any case); instead we should look for things that are roughly similar so we can try to analyze the differences. In particular, there's probably an order of magnitude of difference in stormlight between the chasm scene and the 5 sphere scene; by looking at the main differences in activity (more sticking, and the big fall) and praying to the Central Limit Theorem, we can come to a rough analysis of the relative stormlight costs between sticking things and falling (which is where I left it). There are a few more scenes we might be able to do similar analysis with: - Szeth's interludes in TWoK (though it's hard to compare Szeth to Kaladin since we're told they spend at different rates) - Kaladin's solo chasm training scene in WoR appears too fuzzy to do much with - Maybe Kaladin's training with Rock and the rest However, Kaladin's usage is likely more efficient in WoR than TWoK; this would be another factor that would have to be accounted for.

It seems completely impossible to do any reasonable quantitative analysis of Stormlight usage given the data we have available. That said, here's my initial cut at some values. 1) The distance to the permanent bridge from the bottom of the chasm at the 'shallow' bridge is 40 feet: 2) Kaladin has a 'small fortune' of spheres when he attempts to carry the armor out of the canyon: 3) All of the spheres in the bag appear to be 'fully charged': 4) Assumption: each sphere of a given size (chip, mark, broam) contains roughly the same amount of Stormlight. Therefore we don't necessarily have to estimate the value of the 'fortune', but its composition (number of spheres and the type of spheres). Unfortunately I don't think we have a good way to estimate either; I would suggest that the number of spheres are (in order of magnitude) somewhere between 10 and 100. Kaladin uses a sapphire mark first, then selects a ruby mark. This may suggest 'average' denomination is a mark, so I'll estimate that Kaladin has 50 mark's worth of Stormlight on him (in theory he spends the sapphire, but this is well within the uncertainty anyway). He infuses rocks to climb up to the bridge. I'll estimate that each rock is spaced roughly a foot apart (if anyone can provide a better argument, go for it); he does not climb the entire way and he can skip the first couple of feet, so I'll estimate that he infused 35 stones. It takes him roughly 15 minutes to make the climb: Kaladin then has a short conversation with Syl before jumping down, which expends all of the remaining Stormlight: So roughly, 50 Stormlight marks = 35 infused stones + loss over 15 minutes + buffering for 40 feet fall + loss from speaking to Syl (~5 minutes of talking). Earlier, Kaladin uses 5 spheres (again assume marks) to tussle a bit with Teft and to stick a 'medical supply pack' to a barrel: However, he still has Stormlight remaining after this: He runs out shortly after, however: So, estimated, 5 marks = 1 infused stone + 1 infused pack + ~5 minutes of talking. It's unclear if the pack takes more Stormlight than the stone (it's almost certainly larger); based on the way Kaladin describes 'spreading' stormlight in WoR, it sounds more like a surface area thing than a volume thing. Still, the pack is probably more than the stone. As a wild guesstimate, let's assume the pack took about 3 times the Stormlight of the stone. We still don't have a good way to compare the infusion spending versus the loss spending, but just to make things even let's take the 5 minutes to talking to be worth 1 mark, and 1 infused stone to be 1 mark. This would combine with the first estimate to give us 14 marks = 15 minutes of no breathing + 40 feet drop Since no breathing is definitely less than the talking, the 15 minutes of no breathing should be less than 3 marks worth (this is assuming the 5 minutes is an accuracte estimate for the speaking portion, though). I'll postulate that it's more like 1 mark (2 mark for the period seems high, as it would imply talking loses less than double not-talking). This gives us 13 marks = 40 feet drop which actually sounds kind of expensive. Have to try an analyze the cost of the gravitational lashings, but my gut feeling is that Kaladin could have gotten down much more cheaply by using gravitational lashings carefully.

I could believe this theory. I'm not sure that it has to necessarily be a technological space ship (so not sure the tech level issue is really relevant). While I think there was WoB that suggested Surges don't work exactly the same way in space, if something similar to Gravitation was available it seems quite reasonable to postulate Shardships (in a way, Navani's levitation fabrials are a crude beginning towards something similar). For bonus points, how does this relate to the Wandersail?

FWIW I'm not for (or against) the Kaladin/Shallan ship (or Adolin/Shallan for that matter). My point is only that (in reference to the OP): - There is direct, incontrovertible evidence that by the end of WoR, Kaladin has feelings for Shallan (we know this because Kaladin literally comes out and says it to himself and the reader); - There is indirect but very strong evidence that Shallan has feelings for Kaladin (though with Shallan being Shallan, she does not admit it directly); and - The relationship between Shallan and Kaladin has been intentionally developed to the point where it has to be resolved in the future (partly through the above two points, and partly through the meta-arguments outlined before). I'm not claiming that the resolution will be one way or another, just that there is something actually there - with textual evidence - and that it's a Chekhov's gun that needs to get fired at some point. Whether or not one likes the relationship is a completely independent issue.

Basically this. AFAIK I'm the originator the bond-farming theory; it actually came from trying to figure out the relationship between spren and the greatshells. It seems that the greatshells (and possibly all native Roshar life) are somehow symbiotically intertwined with the spren for their lifecycle (I think there's a quote to this effect, but I can't find it). My theory is that the spren require a material host of some kind to "reproduce" or otherwise evolve: Originally, the spren only had the animals and the Parshendi to bond with. Then something occurred, and humans arrived, Tanavast created the Honorblades, and some of the spren learned to take on attributes that didn't exist before. This is the 'betrayal' referred to by the Listeners: Roshar life doesn't seem to require being 'broken' in the same way humans do, based on how Parshendi bond with their spren, instead being mediated by the highstorm. Most likely the first sets of spren to bond with humans did so accidentally (plenty of 'broken' people during Desolations, or, people being people, in between) but eventually, the spren (or some small group of spren) may have begun to intentionally break people (perhaps just as an attempt to continue surviving). Sort of like a Garden of Eden story, except humans are the Fruit of Knowledge for the spren. Edit: As food for thought - what happens to the spren when the Radiant dies? It's unlikely that they get 'killed' as in the same manner as the Recreance (otherwise the world should be littered with Shardblades), so something else must happen. When a greatshell is killed, spren seem to leave the body before vanishing: So - spren reproduction?

So, again, Shallan's internal dialogue says this about Adolin: This is what it says about Kaladin: Kaladin is the dude you see on the cover of romance novels holding the heroine. Adolin is the nice guy. It's reasonable to argue that Adolin might be a better fit for Shallan for that reason, but I cannot see how you can possibly argue that Shallan is not attracted to Kaladin. Shallan describes no other person - ever - in terms anywhere near she describes Kaladin. She's obviously spent a lot of time thinking about it to come up with such a thorough description. Shallan and Kaladin's arc is a pretty conventional tsundere arc. As the saying goes, love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin. It's not really just one scene (at the very least, there are the chasm scenes). Even from the beginning, they're able to get under each other's skin very easily (the argument to be let in to the council). They have strong feelings for each other from the start; it's just that initially it presents itself as inexplicable anger or irritation, which is classic tsundere: Unusually, there might actually be a supernatural component to the initial friction in this case (the spren conflict). Shallan's thoughts: also, earlier: Kaladin thinks like a scholar. Also, unlike Adolin, he's well versed in wordplay (by their standards, anyway...) as noted in the first scene quoted above and as demonstrated in the chasm scene. It's inaccurate to say that he did not want to pursue the scholarly arts; the penultimate flashback in TWoK before the draft is Kaladin realizing that he really wants to become a doctor. Instead, it's overcome by events when Tien gets drafted: Navani on Adolin: Intellectually, Kaladin is a better fit for Shallan than Adolin. It's possible to argue that this is not that important (certainly possible) but it's hard to argue that this isn't actually the case. Also, while Adolin is certainly more interested in fashion, and appears to have a good sense for fashion, this is quite different from 'art' as Shallan uses the term. It's worth noting that Shallan's 'art' is always reproductions of things she sees and is almost always described in a scholarly context, rather than describing a general aesthetic sense (i.e. she doesn't draw pretty pictures, she draws accurate pictures). The meta-argument is that it's pretty obvious that barriers for any kind of relationship between Shallan and Kaladin (romantic or otherwise) are being built or being held in reserve (again, separation, Helaran's death, spren conflicts, among other things). If there was nothing there and nothing to be there, the barriers have no narrative purpose. That there has to be some kind of relationship between Shallan and Kaladin (even if just as the two main Radiants) is pretty unavoidable. Adolin and Shallan's relationship doesn't need artificial barriers to cause drama; the relationship itself is what will be drama. Also, I'm not really sure why you seem to think that Adolin will never, ever be able to get over Shallan, no matter what, or that he would somehow go crazy. It's worth noting we see a similar theme in the previous generation with Gavilar, Dalinar and Navani, which did not in fact result in Dalinar killing Gavilar even if he contemplated it. As a final note, as mentioned earlier in the thread, Kaladin compares Shallan with Tien. Tien!: Tien is arguably the most impactful person in Kaladin's life, being the catalyst for abandoning his medical career for the army in the first place and the reason for his breaking (and becoming Radiant). Putting Shallan in that category is not a trivial thing; no one else fits there.

Shallan and Kaladin's relationship with each other go well beyond simply not hating one another. While this has been quoted above, it may be worth revisiting: Note those happen almost at the same time from different perspectives. I also don't see why it's so impossible to imagine Adolin eventually gracefully bowing out, much like what Kaladin thinks he's doing above. Adolin's among the most easygoing individual out of the main cast. If Shallan ends up dumping him, it seems unlikely that he'd make a huge scene about it. Also, I don't actually know that Shallan is a particularly good fit for Adolin; in particular Adolin doesn't really know all that much about Shallan at this point. While it's true that Adolin and Shallan hit it off early on, this is before they really know anything about each other besides their public persona (think celebrity marriages...). This is particularly relevant for Shallan, who is explicitly all about dissembling. I'd argue that their initial reactions are much less indicative of where they'll end up than what we see in their development. Shallan's internal monologue about Adolin becomes more and more about justifying things she finds lacking in him. While her conscious thoughts are about making their relationship work, the subtext is fairly clear, and lying to herself is pretty much Shallan's main shtick. Basically, Shallan and Kaladin start on the completely wrong foot, with terrible misunderstandings on both sides - but throughout WoR their relationship grows to the point that they're clearly attracted to each other (Kaladin is explicit; Shallan is implicit, but again, this is Shallan's nature). Adolin and Shallan's arc is basically the other direction - initial attraction, but they find that they have less and less in common as they learn about each other. The likely progression really isn't hard to follow. Also, as a meta argument, Shallan and Kaladin are going to be separated in WoR to slow down their relationship. Helaran's death is clearly being held in reserve, as Shallan had multiple opportunities to learn about it while Kaladin is around to defend himself. A stormy (pun not intended) relationship resolving itself is a pretty common literary theme. Adolin _not_ being separated from Shallan is almost evidence that their relationship probably will not work out in the long run.

I'm not sure I'm completely convinced by the theory, but I'll add one other similarity between Adolin and Lift: Both end up 'going back' for a friend: (em mine) Doing the right thing on the small scale without necessarily worrying about the bigger picture is a characteristic of the Edgedancers: It's worth noting that Kaladin probably would not let himself be imprisoned in solidarity for Adolin or anyone else: Most likely, Kaladin would have pursued a different solution in Adolin's shoes, though given the situation I'm not sure he would have found a better solution. I'd imagine Kaladin would have looked for a tactical or a clever solution rather than an empathic one. Both Adolin and Lift are more instinctual about their decisions, without being as philosophical as Kaladin or Shallan; they're satisfied by the simple, straightforward reasons for doing what they do.