Seloun

The main feeling I got by the end of the book was that it felt like most of the serious mysteries or hanging threads were 'solved', and many of them in a somewhat unsatisfying way: It's almost like the end of a trilogy instead of being in the middle of the series. - Helaran's death did... what, exactly? This definitely ended with a whimper. - The love triangle seemed to add very little to the story, besides emphasizing Shallan's split nature. There were plenty of other more interesting ways to show that, though. Combines with Helaran being a non-issue. - Cause of the Recreance - which, despite what Taravangian seems to have thought, accomplishes basically nothing. It's especially egregious since Kaladin's early experience already leads him to look for a way for both sides to coexist. I have to hope there's something more to this that we're missing, because as it stands it's a puzzler. But it's written as if the mystery is completely solved, based on how Taravangian/Nalan seem to treat the 'revelation'. Nalan's reaction is especially weird, since according to the Stormfather, this 'truth' was rediscovered multiple time (which makes it mind boggling how Nalan could not have known about it pre-Recreance). - Taravangian's position is pretty well established. - Elhokar's death seems to resolve a lot of issues and in a lot of ways seems to close out Moash's storyline, despite the events at the end of the book. At this point he's almost a new character. - Likewise Venli's arc seems pretty clear at this point. - The Unbound seem well characterized now, without many 'big' mysteries remaining, as well as rest of Odium's forces. - Speaking of Odium, now that we've gotten a fair bit of scenes with him, it feels like a lot of the mystery/fear is gone. Especially as we see some of his limitations and restrictions near the end (particularly Taravangian's conversation). - Nightwatcher/Cultivation scene also establishes them to some degree, their relationship, and what the Old magic is about. - Dalinar, of course. Pretty much answers everything about his past. - Also about This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules is going on with Renarin. - Whole thing about squires/Radiants since we see Skybreakers and Bridge Four developing. - Jasnah's sections seem to answer a lot of questions. - Much better grasp of how things work in the Cognitive Realm. - And all the main characters are kind of assembled at this point, except maybe Venli, and even she's connected to Dalinar at this point (or maybe Connected). I'm not saying everything is answered (among other things, spren reproduction, how the Oathpact really, truly works and A Surprise Pattern Appears! at the end) but overall the remaining issues feel a lot less epic. Probably the one big outstanding thing is what the Ghostblood really are, but they had so little impact on this book that it almost feels like an afterthought. Nonetheless, much of the book was still quite, quite good. My favorite section is probably the infiltration of Kholinar - it really showcases the characters involved. I like Elhokar's character development (especially how parts of it doesn't develop), and how Kaladin always seems to end up adopting a band of misfits and leading them (almost supernatural...). Adolin's likeability almost seems like it might be a trait (if he's a proto-Edgedancer, maybe it's something they have in general). Also really loved most of Jasnah's scenes. Appropriately badass, though I think in a couple of places I think her harshness was overly played up - specifically the scene where she argues with Kaladin about potentially making peace with the Parshmen. She seems to dismiss this idea rather quickly despite not having a lot of information (and as the reader we know this is a pretty obvious solution to the Fused problem, given the Fused require willing vessels to return). Still, she demonstrates Quadratic Wizards, Linear Fighters pretty nicely at Thaylen City and by not killing Renarin she may have long-term screwed up Odium's planning capability - so, badass.

The given reason... doesn't really make any sense, or at least loses a huge amount of impact from the perspective of the reader given Kaladin's experiences earlier in the book. Even without knowing the 'reason', Kaladin is already looking to find a way to live peacefully with the Parshmen; knowing the truth about which side is native doesn't really seem to change anything. And regardless if the reason was sufficiently compelling, it's unclear why it would provoke the sort of reaction we see from the KR at Feverstone. What's also strange is how Nale seems to interpret it. The Stormfather says that the Recreance was not the first time this came up: So it's really hard to imagine that Nale didn't know about it before the Recreance (I guess it's theoretically possible?). So why wasn't he working with the Listeners long before? Did he really only find out during the Recreance, or is this another aspect of his madness? I suppose Nale (and other Heralds?) could have triggered the Recreance due to his madness getting worse and coming to a new conclusion, though it still seems pretty flimsy. It is worth noting that the Stormfather does say his memories of the Recreance (and anything before) is hazy (which makes me wonder how he knew Honor had dealt with this problem before). So it's possible he's missing some nuance, especially since his understanding of human reasoning seems pretty vague in the first place (getting better with the bond). Given that the Fused seem to require regular Parshman/Parshendi to possess for their immortality, I suppose one potential solution would have been to make sure there aren't candidates to possess (i.e. genocide). If it turns out that Honor or the Heralds were pushing for this solution (which presumably would mean the Heralds would no longer have to seal themselves with the Fused) perhaps that may have been the bridge too far. Before the last Desolation and the breaking of the Heralds, presumably they weren't looking for such a drastic solution. Regardless, it seems like there must be more nuance to the story, or it's a pretty anticlimactic reveal to something built up for the entire series.

Hmm, apparently I got mixed up on the topic in discussion here. In regards to the point about spren being able to influence, the world and the bonding with Rosharian life, my point was that one of the ways spren could affect the world was through affecting creatures they were bonded with (Parshendi, among others). I don't think the WoB is relevant from that perspective, either. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I think I'm starting from a somewhat different spot. Specifically, I agree that whatever caused the Recreance is probably one big thing rather than lots of little things (given how weaponizeable Taravangian seems to think it is) and that it impacted all of the KR (even if not all exactly the same way or at the same intensity). So the main question from there is what attribute KR all share - the First Ideal seems like a good spot to start, but I agree with the conclusion that the Orders all interpret it in potentially fairly significantly different ways. The one thing we know the KR do share (in a mechanical way, given how the world works in the books) is that they're 'broken'/snapped. So that seems like a reasonable point of vulnerability. Up to this point I don't think I'm particularly invoking whether the reason must have been emotional or logical in impact. The main reason why I think there must have been a significant emotional component has to do with Dalinar's interpretation of his vision of the Recreance. Given that the vision only covers Windrunners and Stonewards, it's possible that the emotional component might have been specific to those Orders (this is what I was getting at earlier w.r.t. potentially different reactions to the same original cause). 'Bondfarming' is just where I end up given my other theory that the bonds are involved in spren reproduction. The main elements though are that (a) the fact the KR are all 'broken' is probably important to the reason for the Recreance and (b) Windrunners and Stonewards seemed upset at their spren. I don't think the spren are any less prone to making poor decisions than humanity (Sons of Honor...). There's presumably a 'sweet spot' of bad things that can happen to humanity to optimize the number of bonds. Also, longer Desolations is merely one of the potential options to cause more potential bond candidates; it was a ready example of a way spren could potentially affect the Roshar in a way that was detrimental to humans. And it doesn't require every spren to decide the risk is worth it; a secret society of spren is kind of what I had in mind (everyone else seems to be in one at this point, anyway). But sticking with Desolations, in the short run Desolations quite likely increased the number of KR (and just having cognitive thought doesn't seem sufficient for whatever the Nahel spren 'want', individuals capable of the bond seem required). Based on Pattern's comments I don't think just having humanity around is necessarily associated with the number of/quality of life of the Nahel spren. As an aside, iIt's actually interesting to consider that Desolation -> more KR creates potentially negative feedback, perhaps providing a partial explanation of how humanity survived the many Desolations. IIRC what Ishar was uncertain was about was whether Taln going back alone would be sufficient (to trap Odium, presumably). If he didn't know, in general, how the system was supposed to work he wouldn't have have been uncertain whether it would keep working with just one person. As to why... well, we know why: the Heralds stay on Roshar for their own benefit at the prologue to the series. It doesn't seem too far fetched to consider that some of the Heralds may have broken in an earlier cycle than the others, or were 'merely' justifying a longer 'vacation'. Really the whole idea about some of the Heralds being in on it came from looking at the prologue. I think it's almost exactly the opposite. I don't think forces of nature would in general be particularly about planning in the long term; they behave mostly according to their natures rather than being particularly deliberate (except a few of the spren whose nature is to be deliberate, presumably). Ultimately the other ways are going to involve people fighting people, i.e. instigating wars. I don't think we have enough history to go into specific cases, but we can consider e.g. Alakavish, the Surgebinder that caused devastation before Nohadon's Desolation. Pre-KR it probably would have been quite trivial to (unintentionally or otherwise) traumatize people into being bond-capable by letting Surgebinders indulge their natures. I concede that this is the weakest part (universality), though as noted it's probably the weakest part of any theory of the Recreance. The best I can come up with is the explanation above about there being a single root cause/reason, but the proximate cause for a given Order/group of like-minded KR falling apart may be different. I think that Dalinar only seeing Windrunners and Stonewards in his vision is important - while there could have been a more prosaic reason for this (they're the only ones close by) I think that it could indicate the Orders didn't necessarily break apart in the same fashion or for the same immediate excuse. The other aspect is that even if not all of the Orders broke up directly as a result of the cause of the Recreance, it may have e.g. convinced the Skybreakers that the KR should be disbanded, by force if necessary. Again, we only have seen two Orders (probably among the more martial Orders) apparently willingly disband. If some coalition of Orders decided that KR as a whole shouldn't exist, that may have been sufficient. Ultimately though I think the requirement the KR be broken may by its nature mean that each KR has some trauma that they won't be able to deal with rationally (at least, not without a lot of work). The evidence for this in the books as of now is admittedly somewhat limited, though that's at least in part because we've only proverbially visited two KR candidates (and the nature of their being protagonists, they are likely exceptional in some ways), and of the two Shallan still seems pretty fragile. I have to imagine, from a meta perspective anyway, that this point wouldn't be brought up repeatedly in the text/blurbs if it wasn't a significant plot point.

Right, but what I was getting at was whether it was indirect (i.e. influencing a human, like the Thrill) or something more direct.

I actually suggested Unmade couple of weeks ago on this thread but I'm pretty surprised by the turn this has taken. While there's definitely seems to be a supernatural aspect, I think there are other possibilities besides Unmade influence; the copycats are oddly reminiscent of how spren tend to copy phenomena,

Last chapter certainly seems to suggest Shallan might become alcoholic...especially if she ends up getting into it even faster than usual due to Stormlight's ability to let her indulge.

I agree the spren knew about the plans for the Recreance; that's highly unlikely to have been kept a secret (though one imagines them telling them 'no, we're NOT going vet - we're going to the park!'). As mentioned in my other response though I don't think the bond is that immediately reactive to intent (compared to action - the one instance where the bond seems to fail Kaladin immediately and traceable to an Oath thing is when he tries to fight Adolin); Kaladin's able to draw in Stormlight and use it at least in a basic form after he's made his 'bad decision', even if with effort. Syl doesn't actually 'die' and Kaladin doesn't fully lose his ability until he falls into the chasm, and even that doesn't seem to be as a direct consequence to a broken oath (instead, it's because he seems to 'overdraw' from Syl; this might be the breaking of the oath but it's a lot more of a tenuous connection than his decision about Elhokar). It's also worth noting that we only know about how the Recreance apparently happened for (some portion of) two Orders (likely the most honorable of the Orders, too) assuming we take the vision as being accurate (currently no reason not to). Among other things it may mean that those particular spren were ones that agreed to the necessity while others did not. Not every spren has to be directly involved; the WoB actually suggests there's a wide variety of even Honorspren in terms of morality, so a 'high council' set up certainly seems possible. I'd argue that Jasnah's dealing with/decision to deal with the footpads in Kharbranth was at least tinged with emotion, and likely the reason why she chose that means of 'practical philosophy' originated from emotion. Being more deliberate doesn't mean emotions don't factor in your decision making or that they can't trigger looking for justifications.

I agree that the Recreance likely was planned given what we know of it so far. I don't think that rules out it being an emotional decision; it's not difficult to find reasons to double down on a decision even if it was originally made hastily. The circumstances likely had some impact on their decision making as well (if e.g. they had no reason to believe Desolations would return); in the middle of an actual Desolation the impact of the revelation is quite likely to different. It doesn't have to have the same impact for it to still serve Taravangian if he needs to fight the Orders. I'm also not suggesting that the decision was purely emotional. Intentionally breaking people without their knowledge to cause more potential KR candidates is probably pretty shady under most of the KR interpretations of the Oaths; the emotional aspect could e.g. be why they made a big show of it. I just don't think that the Recreance was something that was logically inevitable, i.e. the Recreance was not a necessary conclusion from whatever revelation that triggered it, and could potentially have not happened if not for the emotional aspect. I concede this part is messy, but I think that's pretty inevitable given how many differing perspectives are going to be involved. In particular, it seems unlikely every Nahel spren could have been involved.The way I resolve it is that much as the different spren factions are more or less likely to be involved in something like bondfarming (e.g. it seems pretty out of character for honorspren) the way the different spren would react to such a revelation is also probably different. I don't think it's a coincidence that the two Orders we see in Dalinar's vision are Windrunners and Stonewards, who (given their placement on the chart) are likely the most 'honorable' Orders with associated honorable spren. Specifically, they're the ones most likely to interpret their Oaths the way Teft describes it. In that case, if the Orders were created (or sustained) in a dishonorable manner, the Windrunners and Stonewards probably couldn't in good conscience continue in that manner. So the specific proximate reasons why the spren die vary (punishment/accountability, fruit of the poisoned tree, etc.) but the catalyst is the bondfarming revelation. Affecting other people merely requires the spren to be able to communicate with people. Suppose e.g. a spren was able to communicate with Amaram and was able to tell him that it knew how to bring the Heralds back (with some proof that it knew what it was talking about). We could certainly argue that Amaram and Gavilar were crazy, but what they were trying to do is essentially what the spren might ask for for their farming: bring back/extend the Desolations (which almost certainly increases the number of potential KR). The spren don't have to be able to specifically command people in order to get what they want in the bondfarming theory; all they need are more broken people, which hardly requires a lot of micromanaging. They don't have to tell people 'hey, go break those people'; they just need to be able to tell them something like 'you deserve it more than they do' or 'they have something you want'. There's nothing that says they need to be able to target specific people, just that they get more candidates, and just causing strife between people is probably a really easy way to get that. The WoB posted here just says the spren get something out of the bond, which isn't really evidence whether or not the bond is involved in spren reproduction. I believe that the bond is related to spren reproduction, but it's not necessary for that to be true for the rest of the theory to hold; it's just an example of something sufficiently important to the spren that might cause them to behave in an extreme fashion. We know at the very least the nahel spren gain sentience, and that they seem to have a preference for being bonded. I don't know that the bond responds that immediately to intent. In particular, Kaladin's bond doesn't immediately disappear, and he's able to draw in Stormlight (with effort) before his bond is actually broken. What appears to actually break his bond also doesn't seem to be the problem with the Oath as it occurs during the chasm falling, not taking action against Elhokar (occurring when he apparently 'overdraws' from Syl, somehow). This also addresses the concern about the Radiants being able to Surgebind immediately before their abandoning their Shards during Dalinar's vision. I'm assuming being 'broken' is not a binary thing but some sort of continuum. I also vaguely remember something about unbroken people being able to form sort of a proto-bond (but not do anything really significant) but I don't know if I'm remembering correctly (or if it was merely a hypothesis). Dalinar doesn't assault Sadeas on sight with no regards to consequence, it's true, but neither does he forgive Sadeas and Dalinar works to bring Sadeas down. They're certainly straightforward opponents after this point. Dalinar's clearly 'broken his bond' with Sadeas, and is no longer willing to cooperate with Sadeas. I don't think it's really that different from a bonded spren in that regard - someone who you think is a close friend but you find out has betrayed you. I'm assuming that you're really referring to Dalinar not acting irrationally in pursuit of his vengeance, but that's not what is required for the question, which is whether or not it would be sufficient for Dalinar to abandon/kill his spren. If he thought his spren was acting irredeemably dishonorably, he'd certainly consider the possibility. Whether circumstances make that actually practical is another matter, but that doesn't negate the point, as the question is in regards to what he'd be willing to do. I don't think there's really enough evidence either way on this, given we don't know much about Lift's history. However, I'd argue that many people, if they found out someone they considered their friend was involved in causing the death of their mother, and benefited from said death, would react pretty strongly. Also, the Oaths don't really say much about 'friends who betrayed you'. I don't think that really qualifies as someone 'forgotten' or 'ignored'. (Again - this is in reference to keeping the Desolation continuing longer) I assume you linked the WoB to note what actually causes the Desolations and what causes them to end (The Heralds returning to Roshar, and the Heralds having to go back). The spren apparently know this, so this part of the theory is that the spren could have made an offer/suggestion/tempting offhand remark to the Heralds about reasons why they should stick around a bit longer this time. Season to taste with the degree of complicity/altruism involved ('stay a bit longer to train up the Radiants a bit more so people don't lose as much...'). About the only thing I'm asserting with the bondfarming theory is that the spren took action to cause more broken individuals; there are a lot of ways of potentially going about this, with anything that extends or causes a new Desolation being one of them. So again, one of the ways to cause more KR candidates is by having more or longer Desolations. If this was one of the ways that the spren implemented bondfarming, it's actually as bad as the Desolations, or worse. I presume the comment about making the Desolation worse is in reference to how it applies to modern KR, given their circumstances, since Taravangian is apparently holding the reason for the Recreance as a backup card. I don't think it has to have the exact same impact with the modern KR as it did during the Recreance for it to still be a useful tool for Taravangian; if it 'only' removes a couple of Orders from play (because they can't accept using their abilities if it's ultimately derived from a dishonorable source) it's still plenty useful for him. If it 'merely' causes dissension within the KR, it's still quite valuable for him.

I'm inclined to agree, which is why I think the cause of the Recreance probably had some kind of personal, emotional component to it that affected the Radiants. I don't think it's merely a policy issue. It's not really possible to 'prove' the latter point for any situation. I would find the situation more grey if Jasnah was actively acting as an agent provocateur. It's fairly clear that this wasn't the first time the men involved had committed such a crime. Given that they'd been practiced at it, and were in the process of robbing them, it's a reasonable assumption that they'd continue with the behavior if not deterred in some way. One could argue that her use of force was excessive, but I think even that's debatable. The whole 'ends vs. means' thing is not really relevant in any case, Dividing ends vs. means is rather arbitrary; ultimately what matters are the consequences, with means and ends only serving to attempt to determine intent, and indirectly predict future behavior. 1) I'm referring to the specific interpretations of the First Ideal. In particular, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that every possible interpretation of the First Ideal must have been represented in the KR. It's not necessary for an event or action to be 'wrong' for every interpretation of the First Ideal for it to be 'wrong' for all or majority of the interpretations held by the KR during the time of the Recreance. While the fact that Tarvangian seems to believe the knowledge would be applicable to modern KR suggests a certain amount of generality to the cause, it's still not necessary for it to be universally assuming modern society and values aren't that different from that of during the Recreance - or point (2) (KR tend to be similar) 2) There being overlap between the Orders or that people could qualify for multiple Orders doesn't really negate this point. The values held by the Orders don't seem to be in general mutually contradictory so much as degrees of emphasis. The fact that someone who e.g. values honor highly might qualify for both Stonewards and Windrunners isn't exclusive to most Windrunners valuing honor. I don't really think it's that controversial to suggest that people within a given Order tend to be similarly-minded, given that Nale implies and and the in-world book Word of Radiance also seems to suggest a pretty general pattern to the members of given Orders. 3) This really just goes back to the point of (1). The reason for the Recreance doesn't have to work for every possible potential KR of any societal mores. It just has to work on a common subset of Rosharians likely to become KR. There are many ways to literally interpret the First Ideal and it's quite possible there were a minority that wordsmithed it to death to fit their personal moralities. However, I don't think it's necessary for a given reason for the Recreance to work for every single one of those case; the reason doesn't have to be logically inevitable for it to work. In particular, as mentioned before, I think the reason for the Recreance likely had to have had a significant personal, emotional component for the KR; it doesn't have to be completely reliable any more than punching someone in the face is guaranteed to cause retaliation, just highly probable for most normal people. 1) I'm not sure why it's clear that the spren were complicit in planning the Recreance. I don't suggest that it was a surprise to them, but I'm not sure why they have to be willing participants. The feeling of 'immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal' that Dalinar gets during the vision of the Recreance certainly seems to suggest someone didn't want this to occur. While this might just be overflow from Tanavast, the fact that Dalinar appears to be hearing the spren screaming suggests that it's related to the spren themselves. 2) I don't mean 'frame' in the sense that some other party was responsible/spren were completely innocent. Rather, it's quite possible that not all spren were responsible or equally complicit; some may have known but done nothing, others might not have known at all, etc. but that the entire group was held responsible due to it being something fairly fundamental to the bonding itself. The main point here is that it isn't necessary for every spren to have been involved in a giant conspiracy - just that enough spren demonstrated that they were capable of such a thing, and for reasons that might be fundamental to their existence (e.g. this is how they reproduce). 3) The Stormfather creates highstorms. The Nightwatcher grants wishes. Simple windspren (or potentially non-sentient Honorspren) are capable of bonding items together. The capability of spren (at least some spren) to affect the world doesn't really seem to be in question. Not to mention spren can apparently bond with Rosharian life and influence them that way. Spren are definitely involved in the lifecycle of Rosharian life, and we see spren apparently spontaneously generate from e.g. corpses of gemhearts after their deaths. I don't think the Ruin comparison really makes much sense, given Ruin's agency was severely limited by Preservation's actions and the whole history there regarding their agreement about the world. Consider Odium and Honor on Roshar; they certainly left their mark on the place. The whole point of the Recreance is that it caused the KR to break their oaths. Something that would cause Kaladin to regress is pretty much the definition of a candidate for the cause of the Recreance. Whether Kaladin would break his oaths for vengeance against Tien's killer is an open question; however, the incident you mention shows that Kaladin came extremely close to breaking (or actually did break) his oaths for what is arguably a lesser issue for him. Even if it doesn't cause Kaladin to break, one has to consider if Kaladin or a Kaladin-proxy likely would have broken if circumstances were somewhat different. This doesn't actually have to be the issue that broken Shallan, just whether a similar action against her would cause her to abandon her oaths/kill Pattern. The point here is that Pattern seems to think that something like this would be enough to have Shallan kill him. Whether this is what actually broke Shallan or not isn't the point. (FWIW I think it is; IIRC it's not necessary to be 'fully broken' to have a basic bond, and this is almost certainly the first time Shallan summoned her Blade) I don't disagree that this is probably close to what Dalinar feels about it right now. That's not actually the point. My question was whether hypothetically learning that a spren or a group of spren were responsible for his brother's death somehow (e.g. influenced the Parshendi to send Szeth to kill Gavilar) would cause him to consider abandoning his oaths. I'm not really sure why you think this is a counterargument. This suggests that the spren as a group can somehow influence who they bond (otherwise it's not a choice). The fact that it's not Wyndle's choice, but (presumably) some council of spren seems to reinforce the likelihood of the theory, actually. Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that each individual spren individually broke their bondmate. I'm saying that the spren as a group (or more likely a subset of the spren) did something to create more broken and therefore bondable people - probably for their survival (I presume the bond is necessary for spren reproduction somehow). A society of spren dictating bonds is perfectly in line with that. I don't think it's that crazy for Lift to consider killing Wyndle if e.g. she though Wyndle was the reason why her mother died. We'll need more information, but almost by definition one of the broken KR candidates will have something in their past that they would not act rationally towards. (This is in context of spren doing something to extend the Desolations) This was actually what I was alluding to. Suppose the spren negotiated with the Heralds to covertly extend the Desolations; this gives the spren more broken humans to bond and it gives the Heralds a further reprieve. This also (further) addresses how the spren might have affected the physical world: they talked other agents into helping them. (em mine) I don't think this is true. Again, I believe there's a pretty personal emotional component to what caused the Recreance. The point is that it's something that would cause the KR not to think in strictly rational terms. As noted above, practically by definition each KR has something in their past that caused them great personal trauma that can't be fully healed (I don't know if there's a WoB or equivalent offhand, but I presume if the person somehow becomes 'unbroken' they are again unable to allow Investure into themselves). It's a universal weakness they all share. There's nothing that says that they'd stop working against the Desolation; the only specific thing about the secret is that he could use to to destroy the Orders If e.g. the KR thought the bond would make the Desolation worse, that would probably be a good reason to break it. Or if they thought what the bond caused/how the bond was created was worse than the Desolation. I don't disagree with these sentiments. The modern era with the Desolation occurring right now is rather different from when the Recreance occurred, which was probably a lot less apocalyptic given that they thought the Desolations were over. However, the impact of the secret doesn't have to be uniform between the two eras (again, the cause of the Recreance does not have to be universally applicable). It's something that will give Taravangian enough of an edge to destroy the new Orders. It doesn't have to be a magic self-destruct button; if it e.g. prevents anyone else from joining the existing KR, or makes new recruits think twice about joining the KR, that's probably more than enough.

The last chapter of WoR ('The Four') has four heralds.

Whoops, wrong chapter.

I was actually pretty underwhelmed by Sigzil's attempt at quantifying Kaladin's abilities. While the fundamental issue Sigzil brings up is valid (he has no easy way to measure amount of Stormlight) he doesn't do anything to even approach the problem. I'm not really sure there's anything in Sigzil background that would make him particularly suited for investigative work. If anything, Shallan is probably the best suited given her Memory, experience in cons, and scientific background; the best possible choice of the known characters is probably Jasnah, and Shallan is basically baby Jasnah.

I'm not completely sure it's a matter of 'falling' for such a ploy so much as just being Odium's nature. Build something up, and he wants to break it. Even if letting it degrade naturally (which seems to be what Honor is suggesting is the most likely course if no one intervenes) is the higher percentage play, I'm not sure he would want to take it if the alternative is more along his nature. I don't think it's 'tricking' Odium so much as essentially taunting him by assembling something he wants to destroy.

I don't think it's accurate to say that the 'secret' must have been something that caused all nine (possibly ten, with caveats) Orders to have disbanded as a direct result. A secret that e.g. caused the KR to fight among themselves could have also have been sufficient. It's not really as straightforward as requiring that whatever the secret was, it must have affected 9 or 10 Orders equivalently. I'm not actually sure Nalan is a good example of a typical Skybreaker any more than any of the other Heralds. They likely share similarities to a pathological case of their respective Orders (I can sort of see e.g. Kaladin's depression and Jezrien's apparent current behavior, if the commonly held assumption about who it is correct) but probably aren't a good sample of a typical KR at the time of the Recreance. I don't really see this as an example of 'ends justifying the means', or at least I can see Kaladin doing something similar. The thugs were a pretty clear danger to the citizens of the city, and hunting them down isn't much different from what e.g. Kaladin is doing in the Oathbringer previews. About the only questionable part is not letting them run, but her reasoning regarding future threat seems pretty sound. Also, a bit more below. I don't disagree that interpretation is a big part of the KR Ideals/Oaths. However: 1) 'Being Machivellian' is not a binary thing. Likely the different Orders had different tolerances (in general) for 'ends before means'. Simply because the Elsecallers are willing to accept certain amount of 'greater good' reasoning doesn't mean they'd accept any form of it. 2) It's not really necessary for the reason for the Recreance to be something that has to apply universally to every possible interpretation of the Ideals even if it's related to the Ideals. While Windrunners can disagree, there's still probably a fairly broad set of general values that held within the organization for most of its members, even if not universally. Each KR order likely attracted similarly minded individuals if for no other reason that they attracted similar kinds of spren. I also don't think it's unreasonable to think that there was a common set of general values that held among a majority of the KR organization as a whole during the Recreance (or any period). It's not really a matter of 'could someone have disagreed?' but 'is it likely a significant majority would have agreed?' Just having a potential counterexample (or even many counterexamples) isn't really relevant since the point of the argument is not 'what could have caused this to occur under any context?' Ultimately though, this digression is really not directly relevant to my theory. The bondfarming theory exists because I applied a basic test to the proto-Radiants we have known so far in the books: would knowing X cause him/her to kill his/her spren? 1) If Kaladin thought Tien's death was directly attributable to Syl's machinations, would he be willing to kill her and leave her dead? 2) If Shallan thought her mother's death/family's tragedy was directly attributable to Pattern's machinations, would she be willing to kill him and leave him dead? 3) If Dalinar thought his brother's death (possibly other events; don't know yet), etc.... 4) If Szeth thought his being an assassin was due to some spren's actions... etc. 5) We don't really know about Jasnah's/Lift's traumas yet, but similar argument applies. I think in each case the answer is yes, and in Shallan's case, practically outright stated. The next part of the link is asking why the spren might be involved in those events to start with. We know the spren enjoy being bonded and feel they gain something significant from doing so, and we know that the KR candidates (people Invested in general) have to be 'broken' via trauma of some sort). Many of the spren are clearly organized (Cryptics vs. Honorspren, Windle's comments about 'preparing') so it hardly seems impossible that the thought of ensuring an availability of hosts has never occurred to any spren. If nothing else, surely they have been able to correlate an increase in candidates during Desolations. What the spren did might not have been directly breaking the candidates, but e.g. acted to keep the Desolations happening, or happen more frequently. Essentially, my argument is that if something is probably sufficient to make Kaladin kill Syl, it's probably a good enough reason for the average Windrunner to do the same. It's fundamentally an emotional argument because I think the scene of the Recreance Dalinar experiences is too emotionally invested for it to be just a rationally concluded decision. The Oaths and Ideals are a means of justifying the decision, but at its heart I believe it was likely a personally motivated one. It's not really necessary for the Oaths/Ideals to force the Recreance, just allow it.

I'll have to go with Lin Davar, too. Apparently I made a post about it couple of years ago, actually...

I had a similar thought when looking at Kaladin's reaction to the Bridge Four casualties back in WoR. I thought back then that Kaladin's Next Top Hangup would be knowingly letting someone else sacrifice themselves to protect other people. I think it's entirely possible if not probable that Kaladin being overprotective about someone capable will come back to bite him.

My first thought was that it might be an Unmade influence thing going on, like a variant of the Thrill. The thing that bugged me was that it was 'exactly' like the other murder - an extended fight that ended with a puncture in the eye and the same position of the corpse. Without more forensic evidence it'd be difficult to know if it could have been staged, but assuming that there are no indication that the victim was disabled another way or restrained somehow it seems like it'd be difficult to have a fight (appear to) end up exactly that way.

That doesn't really resolve the wording of the First Ideal, however. The wording is presumably the same, so there must be some kind of interpretation of it that allows e.g. Skybreakers to be able to justify at least to themselves that they're following it. For the sake of the theory, in any case, it's not really impactful since most of the Radiants apparently did hold to the interpretation that the ends did not justify the means, and therefore if something was dishonorable about their founding/creation/sustenance it would have potentially have been cause to disband their Orders.

Hmm - I hadn't seen that one. I'm curious how that reconciles with 'journey before destination', though, which is almost literally that the means are more important than the ends. I don't think that substantially changes the argument, though, since the WoB also does say that many of the Orders would in fact interpret it as meaning that the ends can't justify the means, It's probably not necessary to have an explanation (or a single explanation) for every KR disbanding, especially since it appears that not every Order did disband, something the original argument considered in any case.

Ten years ago: Coppermind wiki says Dalinar's wife died in 1163 (ten years ago) though I can't find a direct source for this. Assuming that's the case, my theory is that Dalinar is the one that killed his wife. Chapter 4 suggests that the reason the ardents won't marry Dalinar is due to the actions of the senior ardent: I assume that Dalinar noticed Kadash talking to the other ardents and presumed this was why (Dalinar doesn't know for sure, hence 'probably did it'). But it seems just as plausible that Kadash could have been the one responsible for the ardents' behavior, rather than just as the messenger. Kadash saw Dalinar do something extremely disturbing; from the first Dalinar flashback in Oathbringer we see that Dalinar/Sadeas committing (or discussing committing) what we'd consider war crimes in a very nonchalant manner, so it must have been something pretty significant to have affected Kadash in that manner. Yet Dalinar's can't remember it, so it must somehow be related to his wife (unless e.g. it's a result of his gift). So my guess is that ten years ago, his wife was 'kidnapped' during some kind of rebellion against Gavilar, which resulted in Dalinar being tempted to overthrow Gavilar himself. In the process he ends up killing his wife, which ultimately is what causes him to swear never to hold the throne for himself. As for the gift/curse, I think it might be related to Gavilar. He probably went to seek the Old Magic a little bit after he proposed the greatshell hunt: So Dalinar proposes the hunt, they find the Parshendi, but it doesn't really change how Gavilar is behaving. So Dalinar goes to seek the Old Magic in an attempt to restore his brother; during this time Elhokar meets Roshone and does his thing to help Kaladin become a Windrunner (...).

I'm pretty sure it's been proposed before (something which is true of a whole lot of things by this point, so not necessarily a knock). Kaladin himself brings up something like this a couple of times: The main issue with the premise is that even if the humans are the invaders, what they're doing to keep people alive isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even if it is a bad thing, it makes a lot more sense for the KR to attempt to fix it rather than just abandon what they're doing. There almost has to be something fundamental about being a KR in order for the explanation to make sense. It really can't be just a matter of their objectives because it doesn't answer why they couldn't change their goals (e.g. work on evacuating humans). In other words, they could simply have changed what they were fighting for if that was really the main issue - unless the Oaths somehow made that impossible (this just brings us back to the idea that it's something fundamental about being KR that matters, however).

Something to keep in mind is that Kaladin's grumpiness might be related to his Surgebinding. Nale generalizes Edgedancers in the Lift interlude: And there's other indications that the Orders might generally share temperament. It's interesting to note Shallan's 'seems to like everything' trait; one other prominent character from Kaladin's past also exhibits this: Tien is probably a proto-Lightweaver. I've made this argument before, and I'll reiterate some of the stronger points. Tien is a great artist: This might also potentially be an example of Tien taking a Memory. Tien is also one of the few people who seem to make Kaladin actually happy: There are other scenes where Tien makes Kaladin inexplicably happier. Contrast that with the chasm scene where Kaladin explicitly makes the comparison with Shallan: It's not a huge sample, but given what we've seen with Tien and Shallan as well as Nale's characterization of Edgedancers, it seems quite possible that Kaladin's grumpiness/dislike of rain and depression symptoms might be related to being a Windrunner (this would also suggest the relative interactions between them might also be a commonality, i.e. Lightweavers make Windrunners feel better). It's also worth noting that Windrunners and Lightweavers are on 'opposite' sides of the Surgebinding chart; maybe it's reflective of Honor/Cultivation's personalities (the 'top' of the Surgebinding chart appears to be towards Honor while the 'bottom' appears to be towards Cultivation). The 'Lightweaver makes Windrunners feel happier' could also potentially be some kind of resonance from Honor and Cultivation's relationship (though based on Shallan's effect on people, Lightweavers might make people happy in general).

I'd be inclined to suggest that it's about Elhokar: 1. Man betrayed by a close friend - Roshone 2. Woman who has just been proposed to - Elhokar's wife 3. Man who discovered his betrothed lied to him - Also Elhokar 4. Mother at wedding of only son - Navani Alternatively, Navani herself could probably fit pretty well (Gavilar, Navani, Gavilar, Navani). I'm a bit confused by this statement. Are you not counting the Ars Arcanum?

Things that Shallan likes for no reason or more than perhaps rationally (some are sort of jokey just because other characters comment on it): Rain as mentioned above (the obvious counterpoint to Kaladin's). There's also another section when she meets the Ghostbloods in the pavilion where she says basically the same thing. Alcohol (I have a pet theory that Shallan is prone to alcoholism, as well as her father): The wine disappears somewhere, its fate never mentioned (this scene continues and Shallan participates in the meeting with the Highprinces, ending up with Sebarial, for a while). People pooping: Espionage: The whole thing with Tyn. Respect of bad people: There's also the whole bit about the deserters, but I'm not sure there's a specific instance for it. Wit/Hoid: The sorrow of watching a life crumble, the crushing guilt of being powerless, the terrible nothing that clawed inside and threatened to smother her: Jam. Okay, this may be reasonable.

The Curse of Chalion - though less for that series proper and more as a way to get to reading Bujold.