Confused

Claptrap and deep diving? What’s on your mind?! Thank you for your kind words. And I really didn’t mean to offend you, though I see how that might have happened. The Nature of “Speculation” I think you correctly identified our quarrel: you are an empiricist and I am an idealist. You focus on “minutiae” to build your “foundation” from the ground up. I start with what’s known and then speculate on what might explain it. This is an eternal debate. Each is equally important to progress. Neither of us is “wrong,” since no speculation can be wrong except in the two ways I mention. That is NOT a “defensive trap,” as you put it. That’s just the basic requirements of any theory: no factual errors and internal coherence. I think we both see our disagreement over Shard mandates as interpretive, not factual. Unlike you, I believe interpretation with only the Books 1 and 2 facts before us IS speculation. IOW, I think we’re BOTH speculating. (I accept, however, there is zero chance of my theory being right. That’s what I meant when I said my chances were equal to Schrodinger’s Cat’s chances of being simultaneously alive and dead.) In the sense I’m building my theory on an unproven foundation, your “crack” criticisms are valid. But “unproven” and “wrong” are different things. I do want you (and everyone else) to highlight anything I’m wrong about, based on clearly-stated WoB, clear textual evidence or internal inconsistency. Since you feel your criticism addresses the structure of the theory – its internal consistency – keep your comments coming! I’m really not trying to “bait” you with my “build your own theory” comments. Things follow from our interpretive choices. You’ve chosen an interpretation of Honor’s mandate as much as I have. It’s just a different one. It’s perfectly fair to ask what conclusions naturally follow from your interpretive choices. Maybe you’ll persuade me to your point of view. How can we judge our choices without such questions? You don’t have to build any “grand theory” just to answer them. The Forums are too quiet as it is. Make whatever responsive comments you like; it’s not at all my intention to limit you. I’m just trying to create understanding between us. On to specific substantive points… Honor as “Good Guy” I think Honor has always sided against “Voidbringers,” whoever they are. I think listeners were not originally Voidbringers, but many humans were. At some point, Odium began to influence listeners and they also became Voidbringers. After that, IMO things became more muddled as to who was “mortal” or “voidish.” But Honor’s position never wavered: he’s always been anti-Odium. Definition of “Honor” I’m not focusing on Syl’s definition of Honor. I’m focusing on yours. And I’ll ask the fair and legitimate question again. Assume your characterization of the Orders and Honor’s influence on them is correct. How does Honor’s power express itself consistently with that characterization? What do you think Honor’s power DOES in ways that are different from Odium’s and Cultivation’s power? Or Adonalsium’s? This is not a “trap.” All of us need to think through the logical implications of our positions. It’s reasonable to expect anyone who holds a position on the matter to answer that question. On Bonding I agree with you that “bonding” precedes Honor’s presence on Roshar and therefore originally came from Adonalsium. I do NOT agree that bonding “continues to be enabled independently of Honor.” Adonalsium is long gone. Life evolves. The Shards now influence almost every aspect of Rosharan life regardless of what predicates Adonalsium left. Any bonding that occurs on Roshar NOW does not come from Adonalsium, it comes from the Shards. ONLY HONOR of the three Shards IMO has the capacity to form such bonds. To have an “honorspren” say she “binds things” and then claim that her primary Shard (I’m sure Syl has a little Cultivation in her) DOESN’T bind things seems off to me. On “Torture” “Having one's consciousness tied to a wretched person bound to the spirit of Hatred seems like torture to me.” You’ve obviously never been married… Evidence of the Desolation I addressed this above. It sounds like we agree as to who are Voidbringers. Honor sides against Voidbringers, whoever they are. I’m simply saying that originally, the Voidbringers were the invading humans, and Honor originally sought to protect the native Parshendi. Conclusion Obsessed? OBSESSED? WHO’S OBSESSED???!!! Just tryin’ to use my summer time productively. Soon enough I will be slipping into the shadows, leaving you all Confusion-free once again… As always, thanks for the discussion!

Wow! Hosed by Hoser! What an “Honor”! I’m not sure where to begin. I seemed to have touched a sore spot with my reference to an “anthropomorphic trap.” I did not mean to offend you, Hoser. I used the phrase to highlight the general tendency to assume that Honor is the “good guy.” (If you look again at my comment, I was not focusing on you, even though I referenced your post on this thread.) Honor may be a good guy, and nothing I suggest counters that. But that doesn’t mean he must always wear a “white hat” from everyone’s perspective. No one is a hero to everyone, not even the Almighty. My posts are generally pure speculation. They’re interpretive. THEY CAN’T BE “WRONG” except in two ways: (i) an actual factual error, or (ii) internal inconsistency. I am grateful for any help with these types of mistakes. If you simply disagree with my maundering, as you appear to, that’s okay too. We all have different points of view, but none of these views are “wrong” except for factual errors and internal inconsistencies. I am trying to formulate a comprehensive, overarching theory of SLA, on very little evidence. “Brandon’s world” hardly has a “foundation” yet, so I feel entitled to my “fantasy” as you put it. I’ve parceled out dribs and drabs of my theory over the weeks. Because of the paucity of evidence, the likelihood of my being correct is the same as Schrodinger’s Cat being both alive and dead. If you disagree with my conclusions, fine. Just state not only your alternative, but how you fit that alternative into a comprehensive storyline, spelled out in detail. If you think “Honor” means “honor,” explain how and why the magic acts as it does, how it supports the narrative, how it interacts with the other Shards. What are the natural consequences of concluding as you do? If all people want to do in these forums is state the easy and obvious, I leave folks to it. But if one wants to understand the direction of Brandon’s thinking, one needs to experiment. One needs to change up and consider things upside down, backwards, inside out, and every which way. Your life like mine may be Confused, but it will never be boring…Who knows, you may even learn something along the way. To your specific comments: Shard Names “The Shards have been very carefully named in meaningful ways relating to their intent. Honor is not called ‘Relationships.’ Relationships is not even close to a synonym for honor. Any logic based upon the idea that ‘Honor’ means ‘Relationships’ is claptrap.” [Aside about the word “claptrap.” It’s a wonderful word and properly used throughout your post. (Maybe a bit harsh, but whatever.) I do conjure up a different image when I picture a “claptrap,” one not intended by you or its actual definition…] You observe the “care” Brandon takes in naming the Shards. I agree. It’s hard to find a one-word descriptor for a mandate that is both specific enough to capture the concept and broad enough to encompass all the ways that mandate changes a Shard’s expression of its power. I err in favor of the latter by focusing on what a Shard DOES rather than what it’s named. I do not propose that “’Honor’ means ‘Relationships’.” But when you consider what Honor DOES – using his investiture to forge various kinds of relationships – it’s not a bad choice. If you can come up with a different word than “Relationships” to express the same concept, I’m okay with that. “What’s in a name…?” Before you do, however, let’s review what the word “honor” actually means. The following comes from the online Merriam-Webster Dictionary. I copied this whole and made no changes or omissions: 1 a : good name or public esteem : reputation b : a showing of usually merited respect : recognition <pay honor to our founder> 2: privilege <had the honor of joining the captain for dinner> 3: a person of superior standing —now used especially as a title for a holder of high office <if Your Honor please> 4: one whose worth brings respect or fame : credit <an honor to the profession> 5: the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon 6: an evidence or symbol of distinction: as a : an exalted title or rank b (1) : badge, decoration (2) : a ceremonial rite or observance <buried with full military honors> c : an award in a contest or field of competition d archaic : a gesture of deference : bow e plural (1) : an academic distinction conferred on a superior student (2) : a course of study for superior students supplementing or replacing a regular course 7: chastity, purity <fought fiercely for her honor and her life — Barton Black> 8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity <a man of honor> b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance <on my honor, I will be there> 9 plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host <asked her to do the honors> 10 a (1) : an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten especially of the trump suit in bridge (2) : the scoring value of honors held in bridge —usually used in plural b : the privilege of playing first from the tee in golf Please note that NONE of the definitions you suggest apply UNTIL YOU GET TO NUMBER 8: “a keen sense of ethical conduct: integrity.” Even “chastity” is used more often as a definition than “integrity.” I further note that my “definition” (which it really isn’t) doesn’t appear at all on this list. Point for you. I, however, concede that the word (not the concept) can be improved. You insist on an 8th-level definition. That suggests Brandon intends something more than “mere” integrity as Honor’s mandate. As I say elsewhere, mandates should be viewed abstractly. If you tie them down too literally, they will not encompass the broad swathe of human behavior they appear designed to represent. Rosharan Bonding “Further, connecting Honor as the enabler of Rosharan bonding seems strange given what we know about the planet. We know that it was invested by Adonalsium at one time. It has a wide variety of creatures that are dependent on bonds, including the Parshendi, who are barely sentient without them. The Parshendi apparently predate the humans, who arrived with Honor and Cultivation. To me, it is apparent that the bonds predate Honor on Roshar, with Adonalsium possibly involved in the creation of the Parshendi and bonding in general.” Yes, bonding predates the Shards’ arrival on Roshar. Everything a Shard can do Adonalsium could do. I agree with everything you say in this paragraph, except your statement that Parshmen are “barely sentient.” I would say they are clearly sentient, but barely sapient. Not a big deal… I just don’t see your point’s relevance, now that Adonalsium has been Shattered. Are you suggesting that bonds are now impossible on Roshar, that the only bonds we see pre-exist the Shattering? I have to assume that’s not your argument, given Syl’s self-description. Of the three Shards, would you agree that Odium does not bond? I see Rayse as a grizzled, cunning lone wolf who’s not much of a pack animal. You can make a case for Cultivation causing bonds, but I think she’s limited to simple bonds, the kind that enable sentient spren like windpsren, lifespren, and riverspren. (See “Why Spren Are Not Sapient Until They Bond.”) Who else but Honor, creator of the Oathpact, would have the ability to forge bonds? That’s one reason I describe his mandate as “Relationships.” Honor Is “Good” “Responding to a post of mine that isn't even in this thread seems impossibly confusing.” I want to quote again the passage in my post that you object to, to put your objection in context: “The responses to my “Honor Caused the Desolations” post conclude “Honor” would never do such a thing. Hoser says the same thing here. I feel this view falls into an anthropomorphic trap: it assumes Honor favors humans. (This is ironic, since even Kaladin observes how much more “honorable” listeners are than humans.)” First, there is no post by you in the cited thread. The quoted language alludes to all the people on that thread who disagreed with me for the same reasons you do here. That’s all I said. Second, I consider that “view” to be an “anthropomorphic trap.” Yes, you share that view, but the comment was not directed at you personally. And the fact that I consider it a “trap” doesn’t mean I’m correct. But it’s a bias everyone should be alert to avoiding. Vine and Romance “In this thread, I suggested that tying his romantic partner to Odium would not be in line with Honor's interests or intent. I think the element of romantic partner trumps concerns of race by so much that the comment about anthropomorphic trap is more claptrap.” Well…whether romance trumps race is an interesting question. Fortunately, it’s not presented here. First, I agree that Tanavast’s and nee-Cultivation’s romance would survive their ascension, because “thoughts and personalities” were not originally attached to the powers according to Sazed. (HoA.) The “persons who became Shards” added them. If these two loved each other before, that love would continue in Shardic form (unless it was only physical…) Second, are you suggesting lovers never work together for an important purpose that risks their lives? A lover will never put the other lover into danger to protect the Cosmere from Odium’s rapacity? “Roman[ce] trumps” all, including Armageddon? Your argument assumes that Cultivation was not an equal partner in this decision. It further assumes that Cultivation’s close contact with Odium somehow impairs her power or is undesirable in some way. Our only evidence is to the contrary: Cultivation can do what she wants as the Nightwatcher, but Odium is limited to cognitive curses. And Odium’s Aggression mandate is very compatible with Cultivation’s, leading to natural selection and the evolution of new life forms. Third (and less seriously), I’ve observed that “old married’s” change their relationship over time. The widow of Mao Zedong, herself one of the Gang of Four who fomented China’s Cultural Revolution, once described marriage as (paraphrasing) “after the sex, there is only the power.” Very apt for Shards. Honor Among the Parshendi “Using Kaladin's observation comparing an Odiously-influenced human army to Odium-free warforms long after Honor has been splintered shows that someone has fallen into the trap of assuming that all humans represent Honor long after he is gone. It also falls into the trap of assuming that all Parshendi are like the warforms.” Thank you, Hoser, for making my point for me. Yes! Humans are “Odiously-influenced” and listeners before stormform are not! (I’m using the word “listeners” rather than “Parshendi” because the latter is a human word – once again I’m highlighting your anthro-centrism (JK).) I’m not saying ALL humans are influenced by Odium. I’ve never said that, and it’s self-evidently not true. But Kaladin observes humans are fighting wars all over Roshar. As Honor tells Dalinar in one of the visions, Odium came to realize that humans could create discord on their own. Odium doesn’t need to nudge them much. I assume that listener warform would be more Odium-influenced, not less, than other forms. Warform is Aggressive, matching (what I believe is) Odium’s mandate. Even earth humans believe war suspends normal notions of decency (to a point – past that point, it’s a war crime). That listeners maintain their “honor” in warform is even MORE impressive. Parshendi Are Not “of Honor” I’ve read this WoB. Brandon implies that Adonalsium created the listeners, and sometime later Cultivation and Odium invested in them as well. Honor did not. What is your point? That because Honor did not invest in listeners, they cannot act “honorably”? We agree that Adonalsium could do everything any Shard can. Doesn’t that suggest listeners were MADE “honorable” by Adonalsium? They clearly acted with “honor” on the battlefield as you define it. Cultivation added her investiture through some of the listener forms. Mateform must involve spren from Cultivation, for example. And we know stormspren and the “God-forms” come from Odium. I think it’s irrelevant that Honor didn’t also invest in them. Conclusion Hoser, we obviously disagree on this stuff. That’s what keeps the Forum interesting. But I do urge you to formulate your own theory before saying “this can’t be” or “that’s wrong.” Theory is about fitting pieces together in a predictive way. I look forward to seeing what you come up, and I promise not to yarp at you about it.

OP objections focus on my view of Shardic "mandates" (intents). I'll address your objections on that basis. I see Honor’s mandate (intent) as “Relationships,” enabling Rosharan bonding. I do not believe either Cultivation (which may enable rudimentary bonds) or Odium (which can’t bond at all, IMO) by themselves can produce the kind of complex life we see on Roshar. (See the “Mandates of the Known Shards” thread.) Many of you, however, see Honor’s mandate as more akin to the Shard’s name. You emphasize Syl’s self-description as an “honorspren,” which includes “nobility.” The responses to my “Honor Caused the Desolations” post conclude “Honor” would never do such a thing. Hoser says the same thing here. I feel this view falls into an anthropomorphic trap: it assumes Honor favors humans. (This is ironic, since even Kaladin observes how much more “honorable” listeners are than humans.) I suggest the opposite. I believe Odium herded humans to Roshar by pogroms and wars on their home planets. To protect Rosharan humanoid life (the listeners) from destructive land-grabbing humans, Honor (and Cultivation) caused Desolations, to “prune back” the results of the human invasions. The Oathpact was Honor’s choice to the Heralds: fight against “Voidbringers” – which I think includes Odium-influenced humans - or I, Honor, will kill all humans. What question does “honorable” Kaladin always ask: “Can you kill to protect?” I believe that’s exactly what Honor and Cultivation are doing with the Desolations – they are killing to protect. (Not the case with the "True Desolation," though, which clearly is from Odium only.) You don’t have to agree with my overarching view of the narrative to recognize that Honor may want to help honorable sentient creatures in preference to humans. Even if you think a former human (as we believe Tanavast was) WOULD prefer to help humans more than listeners, doesn’t creating Odium’s prison accomplish that? Would it be better for humans if Honor and Cultivation simply allowed Odium free rein on both Roshar and elsewhere in the Cosmere? Where does Honor lie? In my description of the Shards’ mandates, I mention that Cultivation and Odium work well together. Odium, whose mandate I believe is Aggression, provides the “survival of the fittest” component to Cultivation’s mandate of Survival. I don’t think Cultivation would hesitate to cognitively embrace Odium. It suits her. And her mandate would compel her to expend investiture to ensure Survival. Which brings me to your comments, CPP… [One more “P” and you could pretend you’re Chris Paul of the Clippers – “CP III.”] I note that you, Shaggai and Kaellok each make a similar point on the “Mandates” thread mentioned above, about Cultivation's mandate being "growth." I explain there why mere “growth” is inadequate to fully encompass Cultivation’s nature. Among other things, the word “growth” doesn’t account for the decay and recycling of organic material that “growth” requires. “Growth” and “death” are not synonyms, but death must occur for “growth” to happen. The absence of this “decay” component in the word “growth” is why I believe it is too limiting to describe Cultivation’s mandate. (And why, Shaggai, “flourishing” or “improvement” aren’t the right words either.) You and I, CPP, further disagree about the nature of boons and curses. There seems to be no relationship between them. You state the curse is the “price” of the boon. If that were true, then the better the boon the worse the curse. We have no evidence of any such relationship; only that the Nightwatcher does grant a boon and curse. [An unimportant observation, not necessary to your argument or mine, but why are curses any more likely than boons to “forc[e] change and adaptation”? (Or for that matter, anything else…EVERYTHING causes change, unless your name is “Preservation.”)] The OP’s point, though, is that, in each case, the curse is cognitive; it occurs in the mind. That is not true of the boon. The difference both in the nature of the magic gifted and the manner in which it is gifted – boons vs. curses, physical vs. cognitive – provides evidence of my assertion that the Nightwatcher is part of what binds Odium to Greater Roshar.

Interesting discussion! Some thoughts: 1. Squires. Many speculate that Windrunner Squires are an extension of Kaladin’s bond with Syl. Syl is a piece of cognitive investiture attached to Kaladin’s Spirit Web. That bond enables his mind to project Physical Realm power. A Windrunner’s secondary Divine Attribute is Leadership. A leader projects his thoughts to his followers and compels them to action. A leader is his followers’ mind. As Syl is bonded to Kaladin’s mind, so are the Squires; through Kaladin’s mind, they are also bonded to Syl. That enables them to process Stormlight consistent with the strength of their own bond to Syl (and Kaladin). (A form of the “transitive law of bonding”?) I further speculate that only those Orders that have similar Divine Attributes – ones that might establish a bond between Knight leaders and non-Knight followers – also have Squires. The Lightweavers, for example, do not have Squires because they’re artists who tend by nature to be solos. (Maybe they’ll have apprentices?) The cognitive bond between Radiant spren and their Knights will only create Squires if that Order’s Divine Attributes permit it 2. Self-Healing. Kurkistan and I have an ongoing discussion of self-healing versus healing others. It begins in the “Origin of the Cosmere” thread at this post and continues thereafter. At some point, we go PM with our discussion, but it resurfaces publicly here. Please note that I modified some of my ideas in the course of, and in response to the debate: Hegelian dialectic in action - a “thesis” drawing an “antithesis” response, culminating in the “synthesis” of a new idea! The primary discussion point is how “unconscious” self-healing occurs. That question addresses whether self-healing originates in the Spiritual Realm or the Cognitive Realm. Kurkistan believes the former, I the latter. I posit in the first cited post that the investiture self-healers like Surgebinders hold knows their own Spirit Webs and is already part of it. The same is true on Scadrial with f/gold - feruchemy only works on one’s own Spirit Web, transferring investiture corresponding to health attributes – elements of one’s own soul – into or out of the goldmind. Pewter has different mechanics than f/gold, but its healing powers also operate directly on a Thug’s own Spirit Web.Thus, investiture needed for self-healing conforms to its own knowledge of the target’s Spirit Web. That is NOT true with healing others. As a minimum, Regrowth requires knowledge of the Spiritual Realm “form” of the particular organ or tissue that will be regrown. Nale says brain death is final and Regrowth can’t fix that. Every other organ has a Spiritual Realm form that Regrowth can reference and plug into the patient’s soul, the body’s blueprint.

"Oh! I love to climb a mountain, And to reach the highest peak, But it doesn't thrill me half as much As dancing cheek to cheek." - "Dancing Cheek to Cheek," Irving Berlin, from the1935 movie Top Hat, starring Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers THE FOLLOWING IS SPECULATION ABOUT THE NIGHTWATCHER. PLEASE READ IT AS SUCH. I believe there are several bars to the "prison" that binds Odium to Greater Roshar. The Nightwatcher is one such bar, the Cognitive Realm bar. Somehow Honor bound Odium’s and Cultivation’s consciousness together – a cognitive prison like Ruin’s was on Scadrial. Honor intended these restraints to limit Odium’s Physical Realm power to the creation of cognitive curses as part of the Nightwatcher. With his mind thus limited, Odium cannot otherwise direct his power. (See the “Origin of the Cosmere” post.) Honor must bind the other Shards together because neither Cultivation nor Odium on their own can forge such bonds (even if they wanted to). 1. Renarin calls the Nightwatcher a “powerful spren” (WoK, Kindle p. 735), as do Jasnah (WoR, Kindle, p. 71), Shallan (ibid, pp. 108, 309), and Sigzil (ibid, p. 469). [i envision a distorted “Adam and Eve” story (especially in view of Brandon’s apparent interest in Paradise Lost): instead of Satan tempting Adam through Eve, Honor tempts Odium through Cultivation, springing Honor’s trap. (Maybe…? But the trap was somehow sprung.)] The Nightwatcher’s characterization as a “spren,” if accurate, identifies it as cognitive investiture manifesting in the Physical Realm. See “A Confused Guide to Spren” and "Why Radiant Spren Are Not Sapient Until They Bond.") 2. Evidence of my assertion is the one known example of a Nightwatcher boon: the granting of “heaps of cloth” to Av’s father (in the WoK “Baxil” interlude (I-7)). Av’s father sold that cloth and saved his family during the “lurnip famine.” Av says the Nightwatcher gives people what they “deserve,” regardless of what they ask for or how they ask. That observation is consistent with Cultivation’s Survival mandate. Unlike Odium, whose power is limited to cognitive curses, Cultivation is free to help people Survive in the Physical Realm. (I don’t think it’s been confirmed whether Shshshsh is Dalinar’s boon or curse. If it’s his boon, then the forgetfulness helps him move on with his life...Survival.) 3. I describe Odium’s Physical Realm power as limited to “cognitive curses” because they all occur in the mind. Dalinar forgets Shshshsh’s name (if it IS his curse); Av’s father sees the world upside down; his brother loses the ability to feel his hands (a perception issue, since Av didn’t say his brother couldn’t use his hands). There's been tons of speculation about the Nightwatcher. How does this theory fly?

I like Humpty's theory that the Oathgates are associated with the Heralds and the Oathpact. In fact, I agree with a lot of the speculation here, that the Herald's may have created Urithiru, etc. It’s probably not coincidence that only one of ten Oathgates functions. If this association exists, would Stormseat - Natanatan (sp?) - site of the one functional Oathgate, be the Silver Kingdom related to Talenal? It’s odd that the epicenter of the Shattered Plains, where “great magic happened” (WoB), should be the one Oathgate that works. It’s almost as if a “sonic bomb” or maybe an electromagnetic pulse was delivered by that Oathgate deep into the Plains and also through to the other Oathgates, leaving this the only one undamaged…

Moogle, I continue to feel like Hoid, stumbling around in someone else’s workshop (a reference you pointed out to me…) Thanks for the save on Forum placement. (So the rule is, if a post mentions a book other than SLA, the post belongs here?) Thanks also for the reminder about speculation. (I assume that’s a reference to my “Sgt. Pepper’s Magical History Tour” post?) These fragments are parts of larger essays where my speculation is explicit. I’ll try to be more “attuned” to that. (Please consider phrases like “I think” or “I believe” to be specific to my point of view, versus representing an established Cosmere “fact.”) To substance… First, I believe ALL of the Shards are capable of some form of growth/regrowth, consistent with their mandates. That belief is based on my speculation that even Odium can regrow dead greatshells into thunderclasts and dead listeners whose remains have been disturbed into the Unmade (both mindful and mindless variety – sapient and sentient spren.) This view comports with my theory of what happened at the Shattering: “vertical” fractures along the fault lines of the mandates, rather than horizontal schisms across the spectrum of the powers. IOW, the powers are allocated equally among the Shards, subject only to their mandates. It’s good that Stability and Decay together created life on Scadrial. (Brandon wouldn’t have much of a career if they didn’t.) But on Roshar, only Cultivation can make living “objects” “grow.” Second, I agree. The Stormfather is responsible for Stormlight distribution. The reason (I think) is Honor’s “Relationships” mandate. It forges the bond between the other two Shards’ gaseous investiture and his own. Once Honor has forged Stormlight (and you know my theory on how that happens, Mr. Honorblade), the Stormfather picks up the Stormlight at the Origin and redistributes it via the Highstorms. Third…you really don’t see the difference between Death Valley and Hurricane Katrina? “Bleeding sun blazing” versus “raging tempest”? I again emphasize that Vin had exponentially more power within her than any Knight Radiant has (except Dalinar when all is said and done…or so I baldly predict). Fourth, the “Thrill.” I’m also going to broadly address the “color” question from later in your post. I DO think Stormlight is white because it covers the full spectrum of the three Shards’ investiture. Brandon has said that Stormlight and Divine Breath are more like each other than any other mandated investiture we’re aware of. In my view, he means each is based on visible light wavelengths - color. (Maybe “invisible” wavelengths as well.) I don’t believe I’m the first to so speculate. I believe the Surgebinding part of the Stormlight spectrum covers at least the ten orders of Knights Radiant (the chart I call the “Round Table.”). The Ars Arcanum suggests each order is associated with a different color. Odium’s part of the light spectrum begins with purple, moves to red and finally to black, as you point out. I speculate that the black spheres associated with Odium’s investiture are black because Odium doesn’t bond his investiture. “Void light” is the absence of light (black). (“Stormdark”?) While I think Brandon deliberately associated a specific color with each Shard, he did so as literary imagery – “flavor” (WoB). Blue for Honor (Jezrien, the Windrunners, Kholin blue); green for Cultivation (life, “Lift” – only one letter different from “life”…hummmm - Wyndle); purple/violet for Odium (the amethyst in the chasm pond that makes Syl appear to “phase out,” the scene cited in my “Sgt. Pepper’s” post.) If you search the two books, you will find these colors repeatedly associated with activities or settings that themselves suggest the influence of the Shard of that color. Not all the time and neither cause nor effect, just “flavor,” literary imagery. And that’s true of the moons too. But in their case, I believe (raw speculation) that the colors do signify something. All Shards have solid physical bodies (I assume). We think there is one case where that physical body was a moon – Dominion’s (I speculate). We know of another case – Ruin – where that physical body was atium buried in the Pits of Hathsin on Scadrial itself. Seemingly contrary to my theory, if Roshar is more heavily invested than Scadrial (as Brandon says), wouldn’t Odium’s, Cultivation’s and Honor’s investment be in the planet itself rather than in a moon? (I’m leaving Adonalsium out of this for now.) I think that’s exactly what Stormlight is – the gaseous investiture of one or more of the three Shards. (Extensive Forum debate supports this conclusion). That’s WHY, in part – we can add Adonalsium back in now – Roshar is so heavily invested. Stormlight pervades the planet. I believe the balance of the Shards’ Physical Realm power is in those moons (and, I speculate, perhaps a bit elsewhere…) I assume we agree that the Thrill comes from Odium. It’s certainly consistent with his Aggression mandate. (There may also be WoB, I don’t remember.) Surgebinders don’t feel the Thrill because they operate from a different place on the Stormlight spectrum than Voidbringers. The Honor/Cultivation cognitive investiture mix (their Radiant spren) that “completes” them by patching their Spirit Web (IMO) leaves no room for Odium’s investiture, which operates elsewhere along that spectrum. That may be what gives Surgebinders “Thrill immunity.” Fifth, I think it unlikely that Stormlight is from Adonalsium. We know two things about Roshar: (i) it bears Adonalsium’s “touch and design” (the Second Letter); and (ii) the Highstorms began as meteorological events, not magical events (WoB). This suggests (though doesn’t prove) that Adonalsium did not add Stormlight to the Highstorms, the Shards did. It is possible Adonalsium added Stormlight after he/she/it created the Highstorms, so your theory can’t be dismissed, but unless there’s a really good narrative reason for that about-face, I think the odds of Stormlight being from Adonalsium are considerably less than 50/50. But overall, Moogle, I’m glad you agree with my conclusion if not my reasoning. Sometimes spaghetti sticks even when it’s not properly cooked…(And I await your response to “Why Radiant Spren Are Stupid Until They Bond”) Joe, Honor is the only Shard that can form complex bonds on Roshar. I believe Survivalist Cutlivation can form rudimentary bonds (the kind windspren can create) and Aggressive Odium can't form bonds at all. I've described him elsewhere as a crafty, cunning grizzled lone wolf. Of Roshar's Shards, only Relationships Honor can enable the creation of Stormlight, by forging the necessary bonds among the three investitures. (Those, in my view, are the mandates (intents) of the three Shards.) Drogon: Both I and Brandon share your opinion. (I think there's a WoB on this - I've just arrived from the Cognitive Realm and my memory's weak). Mist is the gaseous form of Preservation's Physical Realm investiture - part of his "body," his "power" (Sazed). Forum consensus, I believe (that memory thing again...), is that Stormlight is the exact same thing - the gaseous form of some Shard(s)' Physical Realm investiture. I speculate in the OP that Stormlight consists of the investiture of all three Shards. I think the weakest case is Odium's, not Honor's, as Moogle points out. The Stormfather is Syl's father, and she enables Kaladin's use of Stormlight. Power's "mind" (Cognitive Realm investiture, in this case Syl) causes Physical Realm effects.

I believe Stormlight consists of the investiture of all three Shards. Evidence: 1. “Stormlight makes things grow” (WoB inscribed in a book). That’s the influence of Cultivation’s investiture. We know that the Growth and Regrowth Surges are associated with Cultivation and that Cultivation (through the Nightwatcher) gifted Lift with the ability to transmute food into Stormlight. (That gift, together with Rysn’s larkin, will enable MANY people to Survive after the Everstorm interferes with Stormlight dispersal.) 2. Honor’s investiture in Stormlight is evidenced by the Windrunner Surges used by both Kaladin and Szeth. 3. Odium’s investiture shows itself in the adrenalin rush Surgebinders feel on inspiring Stormlight. That’s consistent with Odium’s Aggression mandate (intent). (See "Mandates of the Known Shards." Many passages describe infused Stormlight as a “raging tempest” like the Highstorms themselves. “Rage” is Odium’s contribution to the Highstorms. (Others on this Forum have similarly concluded over the years.) In contrast, when the mists rush into Vin, “]S]he felt suddenly warm…Her entire body burned like metal” (HoA, Tor softcover, 2008, p. 638). “She felt as if the bleeding sun itself blazed within her, running molten through her veins” (ibid, p. 642). Vin does NOT feel a “raging tempest” – even when the power within her at that moment is exponentially greater than what Surgebinders infuse – because Preservation is not Odium. I argue elsewhere that forging Stormlight from all three investitures is part of Odium's prison. It absorbs his gaseous form Physical investure, making it difficult to animate Odium's spren.

So far in SLA it's empirically "true" that Radiant spren manifest in the Physical Realm in sentient form, never with full sapient capacity. That suggests the Radiant spren took the "easy way" into the Physical Realm. Whether consciously or not, they paid for the cheapest ticket possible - investiture-wise - for the Physical Realm train. Definitions: I use the word “pre-spren” to mean an idea in the Cognitive Realm that personifies emotion or natural phenomena. Until that idea manifests in the Physical Realm – becomes a “living idea” – it is not an actual spren. I use the word “sentient investiture” to refer to that amount of cognitive investiture necessary to grant “sentience” to a Physical Realm entity. "Sentience" is the capacity to feel. I use the word “sapient investiture” to refer to that amount of cognitive investiture necessary to grant “sapience” to a Physical Realm entity. "Sapience" is "wisdom," the capacity to make judgments. Each Radiant "pre-spren" exchanges an amount of sentient investiture for a like amount of physical investiture. Presumably the "pre-spren" also pays some catalytic price in investiture to complete the transaction. (Ticketmaster always gets its cut.) This is simply an investiture state-change (see the “Origin of the Cosmere” post), but only with respect to the sentient investiture. The sapient investiture remains cognitive investiture. A sentient spren now manifests, appearing as a Physical Realm "shadow" of itself (WoB). This sentient spren/shadow provides an "escort" for the sapient investiture; it “carries” it. I analogize the process to what happens with the corrupted Purelake spren and ITS "escort" before they together bond with (and resurrect?) a sapient thunderclast. If a windspren (for example) can "timely" find a host to bond the sapient investiture to, then that person (through the Nahel bond) becomes the Physical Realm presence of the sapient investiture. The sapient investiture still consists of cognitive investiture, because it never underwent a state-change. The separate sentient Physical Realm presence of the windspren remains, because its investiture price has already been “paid.” Now, however, that Physical Realm windspren presence shares the sapient consciousness that's bonded to the Knight Radiant. So we see Syl with a much expanded consciousness. "Timely" finding a host means "before the Physical Realm fragment becomes sapient on its own." Syl's concern is losing HER mind. That doesn't mean the fragment loses ITS mind. Consciousness to power only means the ability to direct its exercise, not "thoughts and personalities." There are sentient spren analogs for every Order other than Bondsmith, which is pure Honor – pure “emotion.” The rest have some “natural phenomenon” – Cultivation – component. That’s why all the rest have their own “lesser spren” sentient analog

Good to know! So the "seasons" are not really "seasons" and couldn't be in any case given the lack of axial tilt. More importantly, they're irrelevant to plot. (Not being an astronomer, does anyone know whether no tilt is unusual for planets?) Thanks, Weiry! I assume the rest is okay? What about the Greater Roshar planets? Any WoB about their astronomical features? (Don't need anything about "Braize is a kind of prison" or "there's a fertile patch on Ashlyn." Something about their creation or other features that I haven't been able to find?) Again, thanks!

THIS POST CONTAINS LOTS OF SPECULATION. PLEASE READ IT AS SUCH. THANKS! Brandon states that Roshar is a heavily-invested planet as compared with Scadrial. Though the aggregate amount of investiture available on Roshar IS greater, I think Brandon refers to the amount of power actually invested in the planet. Harmony touches Scadrial with a light hand. Roshar, in contrast, abounds with “living ideas” – spren – that don’t even belong in the Physical Realm. (See “A Confused Primer on Spren.”) How did that come about? How does Roshar’s magic work? Where does all that investiture come from and where does it go? A. Adonalsium’s “Design.” Roshar bears Adonalsium’s “touch and design.” (WoR, Chapter 66 Epigraph.) Brandon has said that Adonalsium left power on Roshar that developed sentience on its own. We don’t know whether he/she/it left that power there deliberately or as part of the Shattering, or for whatever reason. I speculate that most “natural” spren (defined below) are from Adonalsium, though that’s unconfirmed. 1. “Natural” spren are those that carry no imprint of human thought or emotion. Humans are not originally of Roshar. Adonalsium’s spren, therefore, would be the ones listeners are familiar with: windspren, rainspren, angerspren – even the “Rider of the Storms” himself. These spren now may be colored by human thought and Shardic influence, but they must have existed originally in some “natural” (Adonalsium-created) form with which listeners could bond. a. Human experience – emotionally individualistic coupled with an ever-changing material culture – varies far more than the listener experience of communal emotional response (the rhythms) and a static material culture. An individualistic culture will create more, and more varied, spren than a communal one. These are simply differences in temperament and culture, not differences in emotional or intellectual capacity. Eshonai and Venli are a match for any human. b. Temperamental and cultural differences do mean that far fewer kinds of spren existed on Roshar before the human migrations. Spren spawned or modified by human thought or emotion would NOT be “natural” spren left by Adonalsium. 2. There’s lots of Forum speculation (with which I agree) that the listeners are the original humanoid life form on Roshar, or at least they migrated there before humans. Brandon hints that Adonalsium created the listeners, but that’s unconfirmed. He also says he modeled the listener chants on Carl Jung’s idea of the “collective unconscious.” That means spren of a commonly-held form – a non-human-inspired form – communicate with one another in the Cognitive Realm and, through them, the listeners do as well. 3. Brandon has confirmed that Highstorms started as purely meteorological, non-magical events, presumably before the arrival of the Shards. I’m sure the Highstorms had their share of wind and rain, but Brandon’s statement suggests they did not bear investiture. 4. Roshar’s seasons also appear to be magical. Though a Rosharian year is 500 days (20 hours per day), Roshar has multiple seasons during that year, each lasting only a few weeks. These seasons bear no relation to Roshar’s orbit around its sun or the angle of Roshar’s rotation on its axis. Brandon has said that the youth of Roshar’s sun should make its planets incapable of birthing life. We don’t know whether Adonalsium or the Shards caused these magical anomalies. B. Honor and Cultivation’s Arrival. Sometime post-Shattering, Honor and Cultivation arrive on Roshar. Brandon has suggested a romantic involvement between the two. Because Shards retain their “thoughts and personalities” despite their ascension, I speculate that their “romance” continued in Shard form. (I also speculate that Skaize and Aona loved each other and continued to love each other after their ascension as Dominion and Devotion. Wyndle’s lament for “Mother’s” loss of interest in humans following Honor’s death supports these speculations. Wyndle’s “Mother” is generally thought to be Cultivation or, more accurately, her partial spren the Nightwatcher.) C. Odium’s Arrival. Sometime later, after a brief stop on Sel because he apparently doesn’t like couples, Odium arrives. 1. I theorize the Highstorms become invested at this time. (Others believe Adonalsium may have invested the Highstorms after first creating them as mere weather events.) It’s unclear whether Honor and/or Cultivation invest them before Odium’s arrival or whether all three do so more or less simultaneously or in response to one another.. 2. I further speculate that the Shards' investment in Highstorms, particularly Odium’s investment, cause the Highstorms to become more violent. Odium’s Aggression mandate (see “Mandates of the Known Shards”) magnifies the power of the Highstorms and may add the thunder and lightning. Cultivation’s mandate of Survival ensures that life nonetheless continues and even flourishes. (WoB: “Stormlight makes things grow.”) Honor, with his Relationships mandate, binds it all together. 3. I believe each Shard creates its own moon. In order of their rising, I believe the purple Salas (the smallest moon) is Odium’s physical body; the larger pale blue Nomon is Honor’s physical body; and the in-between (size-wise) green Mishim is Cultivation’s. Throughout the books, these colors are thematic of each Shard. Example: “When [Kaladin] passed, the grass pulled back in, looking like the fur of some black beast in the night, lit by Salas.” (WoK, Kindle p. 808 (emphasis added).) “Beast” imagery is also associated with Odium. Whenever Dalinar is enthralled by the Thrill, be “bellows,” “roars” and “growls.” That’s consistent with Odium’s Aggression mandate. 4. All three moons are much closer to Roshar than our moon is to earth. I baldly speculate when Odium killed Tanavast, a chunk of Nomon representing Tanavast’s body fell (or was propelled) to Roshar at Stormseat, causing the Shattered Plains to shatter.

I speculate through his compounding that Miles could access his investiture faster than any known KR. (It's hard for me to compare with a Returned.) His healing would occur extremely quickly, as it always does, until it runs out. (Internal versus external source.) Realmatic theory (I think) dictates that great power requires great consciousness to wield it - as the power fills a person, the mind also expands. I'll quote myself to save me the trouble of rephrasing everything: "There is a direct relationship between the amount of investiture and the level of consciousness of the holder. This rule applies to spren, to humans and even Shards – both Vin and Sazed experience a much broader consciousness when they acquire the mists and the Shards, respectively. Sazed’s expanded consciousness exceeds Vin’s, commensurate with their respective power levels. The reason is that 'consciousness' to power is simply the ability to direct its exercise. It is not 'thoughts and personalities.' Power just wants someone to wield it. Realmatic theory also helps explain this – if all things exist in three realms, then greater power theoretically comes with expanded 'consciousness,' all other things being equal." In your example, Miles would have enormous power available to him for a short time. That power would necessarily expand his mind's capacity to process (direct) the power. Either through (i) the unconscious shock of losing his hand and wanting its immediate replacement, or (ii) Miles' conscious decision to regrow his hand, Miles' mind would try as hard as it could to retain his appendage. And the Spiritual Realm would work just as hard, in response, right along with it. There would never be a moment when Miles' self-perception lacks a hand. With Miles, because of the amount of short term investiture available to him, healing is almost instantaneous. Miles' self-perception never wavers because he knows in his soul (metaphorically) that he will immediately heal. Implicit in your question (given the WoB) is the nature of the "Platonic form" for healing. Does the "form" for Miles' hand come from his own "soul" or elsewhere? I think of the soul as the blueprint for the "person" - that concatenation of connections that make you YOU. The blueprint includes both physical and "cognitive" aspects. As to the physical, each body consists of identical components. We all (mostly) have the same bones, the same muscles, the same brain tissue, etc. These components have their own "forms." The soul, the blueprint, integrates those components, those forms, into itself, conforming them to who YOU are. The conversation between Hesina and her sons on their rooftop during the Weeping provides evidence. Tien asks if he has a spren. Hesina answers: "You have a soul, dear. You're a person. But the pieces of your body may very well have spren living in them. Very small ones." - WoK, Kindle p. 539-40. This statement highlights the difference between WHO YOU ARE and WHAT YOU ARE MADE OF. The "form" of Miles' hand is the Platonic form of "hand" integrated into Miles' soul, his blueprint. Self-perception is part of that blueprint, because it is an idea that becomes reified into an ideal, into that person's soul. I know streams run low this late in summer, but my goodness, there's little life in these waters...It's you and me, my friend!

I’m intrigued by Jasnah’s description of Shadesmar as a place where the unconscious is given expression and spren “leak out” into the Physical Realm. How does something called the Cognitive Realm (which definitionally means “Conscious” Realm) deal with the Unconscious? “Shadesmar is the way that your cognitive self – your unconscious self – experiences the world. Through your hidden senses, touching that realm, you make intuitive leaps of logic and you form hopes. It is likely through those extra senses that you, Shallan, create art.” - WoR, Kindle p. 40. This is a definitionally false statement. To be a true statement would mean Brandon simply picked a word (“cognitive”) he uses as jargon rather than its actual meaning. And that’s okay (provided we, therefore, take everything Brandon says, even textually, with suspicion…which I guess we already do.) For my personal theories, it works much better for Shadesmar to have both conscious and unconscious features, to be like a “human mind” in Cosmere truth. I received a lot of flak for my “Shattering” theory, specifically the notion that the power chose each Shard because of its “cognitive like-mindedness.” I claimed that the impulses/emotions each Shard’s mandate represents mirrored the unconscious drives of the persons who became Shards. This theory hasn’t mattered much so far, but I still think it valid. Aside [i referenced in that post the 1956 classic Sci-Fi movie The Forbidden Planet. In that movie, longtime actor Walter Pidgeon plays a scientist who discovers a massive machine built by an ancient alien civilization. He has a daughter, played by Anne Francis (later of 1960’s TV fame starring as female detective “Honey West”). They have been stranded alone for awhile, after Mommy died. A space ship arrives seeking to rescue Daddy and Daughter. Space ship captain Leslie Nielsen (yes, that Leslie Nielsen) and Daughter fall for each other. Daddy gets upset. It turns out massive alien machine has “bonded” with Daddy, turning his unconscious thoughts into “Physical Realm” power. That power kills many of the crew before Daddy realizes what he’s done and sacrifices himself to allow Daughter and Captain to escape. Does the “magic” sound familiar? BTW, this movie was the first appearance of “Robby the Robot” who went on to star in the Lost in Space TV series.] I’ve also been making a case to Kurkistan about unconscious healing. He says such healing begins as “Spiritual Realm impulses” flowing down to the Cognitive Realm. These impulses take a snapshot of a person’s self-perception (their cognitive self-image), and make the necessary adjustments to the body to effect any changes – “healing.” I posit the opposite mechanism. The body’s self-perception arises mostly in one’s unconscious – we think about it only a few times a day if that much. Changes in self-perception are themselves a series of Cognitive Realm ideas that regularly reify into new Spiritual Realm ideals/connections. Those new ideals/connections effect Physical Realm changes to one’s body – “healing.” In the Spiritual Realm, each new cognitive “idea” of a changed self-perception gets compared with the Spiritual Realm template. The Spiritual Realm only makes those changes “requested” by the Cognitive Realm idea. If the new self-perception idea doesn’t "request" a slave brand’s removal, it doesn’t happen. That’s how the Spiritual Realm deals with the self-perception issue. The significance? The unconscious mind can generate magic, just like the conscious mind can. “ALL MAGIC BEGINS IN THE COGNITIVE REALM.” (Repetition makes it true…)

Every time I write here I realize the deficiency of words. I'm reminded of that old Gloria Estefan song: "The Words Get in the Way." I find I do a poor job of explaining myself, given your reactions. (An old study concludes that 55% of the meaning of speech is conveyed through body language; 38% through vocal tone; and only 7% through the words themselves! The cellphone TV ads showing a mother and daughter screaming at each other, venomous expressions on their faces, but actually SAYING "Thanks" and "I love you," prove the point.) But I will soldier on, trying to find words that express my meaning, knowing I'm only communicating 7% of what I want to... Natc: Exactly! Eshonai smashed the gemstone, the stormspren was released, AND BONDED WITH HER. Her gem wasn't a fabrial though, and stormspren don't (I believe) hold as much investiture as a Radiant spren. But same concept. Edgedancer: No, this is not a "new" type of spren. It is exactly the same spren as a Radiant spren that has the same Surge capabilities. One spren exercises its power through a device, the other through a KR. If the gemstone breaks, the spren is free to bond with a proto-KR. That's the point of the OP. Oudeis: First, thank you for your compliment of my tone! I've observed that "leadership" stems from two things: if you're confident, people will believe you. If you're also enthusiastic, people will want to follow you. So thanks for noticing! (Btw, Is your Forum name intended to be pronounced "Odious"?) Of course my post is speculation and interpretation. EVERY POST in these forums is speculative. This wouldn't be much fun If we KNEW what's really going on. The speculation isn't wholly from my head, though. There are analytic and logical consistency reasons (at least with other of my theories) why I propose what I do. "Theorizing" is about applying some kind of unifying framework to known facts. I view our postings as scorecards against which to measure future story developments. (We only have 2 of 10 books. Given Brandon's history of pouring most of the exposition into the last part of the last book, that means we have well fewer than 20% of the facts.) Time and the Progression Surge will tell... Others have advised me not to make "throwaway" comments - ones unnecessary to the argument - because of their tendency to attract nitpickers. (I'm not suggesting YOU are. Just that that tends to happen, distracting attention from the main points. The fault is mine for putting unnecessary comments out there. Just can't help myself...) My point, Oudeis, is that the Surgebinding chart comment is completely irrelevant to the argument. I shouldn't have made it in the first place. You are correct in pointing out that the chart's interpretation is not "canon." But I have fairly high "confidence" (sorry) that Truthwatchers affect time somehow. That's based on an interpretation of the handwriting on the wall ("Mene, mene, tekel, upharsin" [sp?] - "Your days are numbered" - Book of Daniel) that Renarin sees the future. We also know that seeing the future is something Cultivation is good at. I have previously theorized that the Shards all have the same powers, but express them differently because of their mandates (intents) and unique planetary/Shard interactions. We know that "time bubbles" exist on Scadrial. All of this points to a Rosharan ability to affect time, as I speculate. Yes, Confusion is my normal state. (If you're not "Confused," you're not thinking.) I'm not going through each and every fabrial type to determine whether this theory works on any specific type. That's irrelevant to the point. If not every fabrial uses a spren and gemstone, fine. All I'm saying is that, with respect to those fabrials that DO use a spren and gemstone, when the gemstone breaks, the spren inside may be able to bond with a proto-KR, supplying a source of future Radiant spren. Oudeis, I have a lot of respect for your analytical rigor and your writing (even if sometimes you can be a bit grumpy). But here you missed an important FACT: Spren ARE investiture. That's ALL they are. They are bits of cognitive investiture, carrying with them the capacity to direct power (hence "cognitive"). We all "know" (just being epistemological here) that there are “gradations” of spren, depending on how much investiture comprises them There is a direct relationship between the amount of investiture and the level of consciousness of the holder. This rule applies to spren, to humans and even Shards – both Vin and Sazed experience a much broader consciousness when they acquire the mists and the Shards, respectively. Sazed’s expanded consciousness exceeds Vin’s, commensurate with their respective power levels. The reason is that “consciousness” to power is simply the ability to direct its exercise. It is not “thoughts and personalities.” Power just wants someone to wield it. Realmatic theory also helps explain this – if all things exist in three realms, then greater power theoretically comes with expanded “consciousness,” all other things being equal. Painspren consist of only enough investiture to "cause" (or be associated with) feeling, not to direct any power. That requires more investiture, which means a higher order spren, a splinter-sized spren like a Radiant spren. Stormlight is the additional investiture that must be added to effectuate the state change that magic involves. (Like adding heat to melt ice.) It's no different than when Kaladin infuses Stormlight to create magic even though he already has Syl. All good questions. Hopefully I provided clearer answers, But words really do get in the way...

My topic is not so much the nature of fabrials (although I needed to address that in the OP) as it is trying to figure out what happens to spren when fabrial gemstones break, as they often do. Hence, I'm only talking about gemstone/spren fabrials. Brandon's talked about the large number of splinters on Roshar. But where are they? It's possible they're lurking in other countries or have not yet transitioned to the Physical Realm. I'm suggesting that many future Radiant spren will come from broken fabrials. In answer to your question, Moogle, I can only guess. I've always liked the explanation that the glyphs on older fabrials are Stormlight batteries. Perhaps they also are symbols of the "divine language." (I'm making this up as I go along, but I do note that glyphs on other planets look equally exotic and strange.) If so, the glyphs may constitute directions to the Stormlight how to execute whatever Surge is involved. The human user simply turns it on or off as needed. IOW, the glyphs give direction instead of the fabrial user, since there is no spren for the user to bond with. Oudeis, I believe the Truthwatchers - holding 100% Cultivation's investiture, if the KR chart can be trusted - have the ability to see the future and possibly affect time in other ways. The Surge that permits the Truthwatchers to deal with time (Progression?) is probably the same one clock fabrials rely on. Drawing water might be adhesion or whatever the "surface tension" Surge became. Painspren are sentient, not sapient spren like Radiant spren. They just reflect the pain sentient beings feel. They do not hold enough investiture to make a fabrial work. Broken fabrial gemstone spren ("BFGS"?) fly free just like a flamespren. But they will forever do so unless they find a sapient being to bond to (like Syl and Pattern did). A BFGS's capacity to bond with a sapient being (unlike a flamespren) is what enables them to be Radiant spren.

I want to thank Moogle for sparking the idea of this post. He reminds us here that fabrials are Stormlight-infused gemstones containing (imprisoning) certain spren. He and Seloun have an interesting discussion about what such fabrials can do. Here is the idea: The spren inside fabrials have as much investiture as Radiant spren. Otherwise, they could not direct power like Radiant spren do. (Anecdotally this is true: the foodmakers and builders both seem to wield powers much like Lift and what I imagine Stonewards can do.) When you look at what fabrials do, in each case they are identical to the Surges. Seloun asks “What is the spren for lack of pain?” The answer is, the one that began its bond with Ym. That’s what that spren did for the boy with the sore foot. Power needs a mind to direct it. That means the device to which the gemstone is attached somehow communicates to the spren how it wants the power to be used. The spren is bonded to the fabrial user through the device, doing what the user asks of it. Just like those Radiant spren do who are bonded to KR. The device substitutes for the Nahel bond. My topic question, then, is what happens to the spren when the gemstone breaks? The answer must be that the spren fly free. These spren are bits of cognitive investiture that have been bonded, and now their bond, however tenuous, has been broken. Do they become “dead” like the Recreance spren? I speculate they are just like Radiant spren. For some period of time, they will float on a consciousness consisting of mere sentience. (Like Syl when she was a windspren.) But like Syl, they will search for a mind that can direct their power. These spren ARE Radiant Spren and form the pool available to bond with new Knights Radiant! That’s what I think will happen to them, anyway…

The Honorblades are more than inefficient Surgebinding fabrials. Kalak describes the Honorblades as “weapons of power beyond even Shardblades…unique. Precious” (SLA Prelude, Kindle, p. 15). I believe they're "precious" because of their ability to consume and reconstitute investiture. Honorblades only appear inefficient because their primary purpose is to capture disparate investitures and forge them together as Stormlight. As those of you who have read my posts know, I believe the Honorblades contain the souls of the Heralds, implanted as identity spren. I modified that idea to posit that each identity spren bonds with a Stone Shaman when a Desolation comes. In a very long post about Desolations I'm now working on, I propose that one bar of Odium's "prison" is Stormlight itself. Stormlight consists of the investitures of each of the three Shards. Honorblades sweep Roshar clean of spren (at least all unbonded investiture), which gets rid of Voidbringers. That's a main reason Shinovar is spren-free. So that's why I think Honorblades are "unique" and "precious." Those properties may (I'm asking, not answering) make it difficult to use a Shardblade and an Honorblade simultaneously.

Maxal, lighten up! MortalCoil slogs through 2 pages of this stuff - much of which is repetitive - gets to the third page and decides to take a shot at humor. IT WAS MORTALCOIL'S FIRST POST!!! Upvote him or her, don’t criticize. (Plus, he or she is obviously a Hamlet fan: "slough off this mortal coil," from the "To be or not to be" speech. You gotta love that...) My 2 cents: it’s WAY too early to predict who ends up with whom. Love develops through shared experiences and shared vulnerabilities, and these characters have known each other less than 2 months. Having said that, “pooping in my Shardplate” doesn’t exactly rank up there with “I killed my father.” To me, the gentle joshing and infatuation between Adolin and Shallan is a good foundation for a long-term relationship (free advice: if you’re physically attracted to your best friend, marry him or her). But the emotional intensity and life-threatening drama of the Chasm scene trumps all else. I don’t have a horse in this race. And I question whether KR can even form long-term loving relationships with one another when they’re already bonded to someone else, their spren. If I were forced to bet, though, my money goes on Shalladin.

Voidbringers include anything Odium's investiture influences. Odium's mandate (intent) of Aggression does not allow Odium's investiture to bond well. Thus, Odium has to pour his investiture into a host through "holes." (WoB.) Stormspren IMO are corrupted windspren, just like the fish in the Dalinar Purelake vision was corrupted. In the Purelake, the corrupted spren itself bonded with the rock mass that became the thunderclast - a type of Voidbringer. Similarly, with the listeners, the stormspren itself bonded. There was no direct bonding in either case between Odium's investiture and its ultimate host (unlike Syl and Kaladin, e.g.) So...what are Voidbringers? Listeners who bond with spren carrying Odium's investiture. Thunderclasts - which I think are DEAD GREATSHELLS that Odium-corrupted spren resurrect. The "mindless" Unmade (according to the Diagram, not the "splinters") - which I think are DEAD LISTENERS whose remains have been "disturbed." (That's why listeners get so upset when Alethi bother their dead.) CORRUPTED HUMANS.- I have no textual evidence for this. Brandon says Odium's influence on humans is widespread. Whether this means humans just think odious thoughts or actually become bonded to spren holding Odium's investiture, I don't know. But the WoK Prelude scene never really distinguishes among combatants. For example, Kalak observes a place where "surgebinders fought." Did they fight each other or only "Voidbringers"? I think its unclear. And the Prelude image of humans in fur skins beside KR doesn't help clarify, since humans would fight on both sides if I'm right. Just some thoughts... FWIW, I put out a discussion of spren yesterday ("A Confused Primer on Spren") that I think addresses pretty important stuff (whether or not you agree with what's said). Perhaps my Internet etiquette slip is showing by mentioning this, but that post is one of a series I've been working on trying to explain things (my "Confused Theory of Everything"). The other important posts (IMHO) address "The Origin of the Cosmere," "The Shattering" and the "Mandates of the Known Shards." Those threads are all in the "Cosmere Theory" Forum. The "Spren Primer" is in this Forum, and I'm working on a long post about Desolations that tries to pull all these ideas together. That will also be posted in this Forum. Thanks!

Like the SLA characters themselves, we often take spren for granted. I thought I’d add my own definition. (What a concept!) Shallan calls spren “living ideas” (WoR, Kindle p. 41). Jasnah describes them as the personification of some natural force or emotion. In Cosmere terms, spren are the Physical Realm manifestations of Cognitive Realm ideas. 1. A quick review of realmatic theory: Sazed, Shai and Jasnah each say that all things exist in three “forms,” three realms. These realms are the Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual – Body, Mind and Spirit. (See the “Origin of the Cosmere” post for a fuller discussion of this subject. You might also look at “Plato, Spinoza and Jung’s Contributions to Realmatic Theory” for background information.) a. I believe all things exist simultaneously in each realm. Except for what I’ll call an “inchoate idea” (defined below), there is always a one-to-one-to-one correspondence for each object or idea in each of the three realms. How an object or idea appears in each realm – its “presence” – may differ from realm to realm. But the one-to-one-to-one correspondence is always there. (Some disagree with this idea.) If there is such a thing as a “unit of investiture,” each gob of investiture would hold the same number of such units in each of the three realms regardless of how the gob appears in a realm. (Some also disagree with this idea.) An “inchoate idea” is an idea that hasn’t been sufficiently clarified in Physical Realm sentient minds to form a Spiritual Realm “ideal.” Thus, it does not yet (and may never) exist in the Spiritual Realm, though it does exist in the Physical and Cognitive Realms. b. Example: Tozbek’s boat The Wind’s Pleasure exists in the Physical Realm. It also exists in “the thoughts of the people who served on it, knew it, thought about it” – in the Cognitive Realm. (WoR, Kindle p. 119.) Because it exists in the Physical Realm, for reasons expressed in the linked post The Wind’s Pleasure also exists as a Spiritual Realm ideal, an “essence.” One object, defined by its three points of contact – Body, Mind and Spirit. c. As stated in the “Origin of the Cosmere” post, I believe all magic begins in the mind that directs it. (There is an ongoing debate whether this “rule” applies to “unconscious” magic, like healing when you’re asleep; but I think there may be agreement on the conscious exercise of power.) Cognitive investiture – the mind – is required to create Physical Realm magical effects. 2. Before spren manifest in the Physical Realm – before spren become “living” ideas – they begin as simple ideas created by the collective minds of the Physical Realm’s sentient beings. A simple idea’s Physical Realm presence is the bodies of the sentient minds that hold that idea – us. 3. “Living” ideas in the Physical Realm – spren – come in different sizes. Rainspren are smaller than riverspen are smaller than Cusicesh. These size differences reflect the different amounts of investiture comprising each spren. Shallan says lesser spren like rainspren are mindless, while riverspren and windspren are mischievous and can mimic human voices. “Powerful spren” like the Nightwatcher have greater presence and powers. In-between are the so-called “Radiant spren” – splinter-size fragments of power, Pattern says. 4. Regardless of size, spren are characterized by their “sentience” – their capacity to feel, the lowest level of consciousness. For a “pre-spren” idea to transition to the Physical Realm and attain sentience seems to require additional investiture. My analogy is the addition or subtraction of energy to cause matter state-changes. Shallan gave Stormlight to The Wind’s Pleasure to enable it to turn to water (after it first harrumphed at her over what it perceived was a bribe of the Stormlight.) 5. I speculate that the type of investiture involved in the transition is relevant. Power only invests consistent with its mandate (intent). Syl required Honor’s investiture to manifest, as Pattern and Wyndle required some combination of Cultivation’s and Honor’s. A mandate-consistent idea plus the same mandated investiture (lock and key) determines the nature of the spren manifesting. (When the investiture is Stormlight, this consideration is irrelevant. I believe Stormlight consolidates the investiture of each of the three Shards, so Stormlight by itself can animate any spren’s transition.) 6. Syl is a splinter-size fragment of Honor’s power. Syl “dangerously” enters the Physical Realm as a mere windspren, however, and only with a windspren’s “sentience.” (WoR, Kindle p. 132.) If she can’t find Kaladin, she will remain a windspren. When Syl does bond with cognitively like-minded Kaladin (i.e., whose Spirit Web reflects the Windrunners’ “Divine Attributes” of protection and leading), her mind develops further and she attains “sapience” – “wisdom,” the capacity to make judgments. 7. A bonded spren is a bit of a god's mind attached to a human mind. A bonded spren remains as cognitive investiture. The Nahel bond turns a Knight Radiant into the Shard’s avatar and enables the Knight to direct the Shard's power in the Physical Realm. That little bit of Honor’s cognitive investiture called an honorspren is what combines with Kaladin's mind to enable his direction of magical effects. That’s the Confused version of spren. See if you can straighten it out for me a little...

I often speculate about the configuration of the “Dawn Cities” – a series of geometric shapes. They remind me of the crop circles we find on earth. That and the description of the black “fortress” in the Purelake during Dalinar’s vision – “finlike sides rising towards peaked tips above, towers like arrowheads…” (WoR, Kindle p. 73) – make me think of space ships. I’m not pushing this (yet); but it’s always made me wonder…Has anyone else had similar thoughts? (And the black "obsidian" of the Purelake "fortress" could easily be black metal. Dalinar wouldn't be able to tell the difference, never having seen a large structure made from metal, especially from distance.)

Just remember that Brandon is the Nightwatcher -- however you word your question, he only gives you what you "deserve." (And I'd ask him how Shshshsh died.)

Thank you, Patrick, for the metaphoric explanation of the tale. I am focusing on the "moral" of the tale - its allegorical implications. I think Brandon is explaining to us that ANYONE can be a "Voidbringer" if Odium influences them. This situation is the "moral origin" of Voidbringers, as Wit tells us. But the description of the Great Abyss - the Void - into which drains the ocean may literally be true. Until further notice I choose to believe it is true for a variety of narrative reasons. This all shows me I'm a pretty bad researcher...Before writing my OP, I searched under "Wandersail" and didn't see any references to your explanation or ParadoxSpren's. Thanks to both of you for your comments!

“[T]here shall be a great cry in all the land of Egypt, such as there has not been before and such as shall never be again.” - Exodus 11:6 The Wandersail story (WoK, Chapter 57) has a lot to teach us. To recap, Derethil goes looking for the “Origin of Voidbringers.” He finds the Uvara, “People of the Great Abyss,” who live on some islands surrounding a whirlpool. The Uvara brutally murder anyone who makes the slightest mistake, as they believe their emperor commands. When they discover that the emperor had been dead for years, the Uvara riot, committing even more atrocities, enraged and mortified that they themselves are responsible for their cruelty. Kaladin interprets the story as meaning he must take personal responsibility for his life and not blame circumstances or others. As Wit says, that’s one way to look at it. But there are other interpretations that have meaning for SLA: The Voidbringers are the Uvara. This view concludes that Odium’s influence leads people to do horrific things if they can avoid taking responsibility for them. “I was just following orders…” The Voidbringers are also Derethil and his crew. This view looks at Derethil like the serpent in Eden: he brings knowledge of good and evil to the Uvara, showing them their emperor is dead and the murders are their own. Could the “Origin” of Highstorms actually be the “origin of Voidbringers”? Very possibly (for reasons explained in another post I’m working on). The “Great Abyss” sounds like the “Void.” These are the People of the Great Abyss – people of the Void. Could the Great Abyss be Odium’s Shardpool (assuming he even has one on Roshar)? Shardpools are speculated to be associated with the Cognitive Realm according to the Coppermind. They are also believed to be worldhopping conduits like the Cognitive Realm. I and many others think Hoid periodically emerges from Cultivation’s Shardpool in the Horneater Peaks. If the Great Abyss is Odium’s Shardpool, that would explain one way his investiture circulates into Roshar.

There's a lot I can say about your comments in rebuttal, but I'll toss one item out in the meantime. Look at WoK at page 17. Kalak says, "He will not remain bound by this. The Enemy. He will find a way around it." Everyone assumes the "Enemy" is Odium. BUT ODIUM IS NOT "BOUND" BY THE OATHPACT. HONOR IS, according to Brandon. So who is the Enemy... Also re mandates, I don't disagree with most of your sentiments. But one needs to think more BROADLY and ABSTRACTLY about them. More to say about that another time. On my cell...