Aleksiel

T being wrong won't be good news for humanity. T asked for the capacity to save the human kind. Dalinar might or might not have the capacity to save humanity. Diagram T was smarter than brilliant, had much more information than Dalinar, much more experience in dealing with world politics and ruling people (regardles of his lack of empathy), had more knowledge of what is going on and will happen, knew more about the Radiants, the Unmade and likely many other things. Not being able to follow the Diagram or not reading it correctly might be what fails Vargo in the end, however he is/was best fit to come up with a reliable plan.

Hmm, I didn't think about this, good point. Though there's the possibility of something happening after Honor was splinter, so Tanavast wouldn't have known about it unlike Nin who was still around. The info might come from the same visions (though we're not certain yet), but Diagram T was smarter than Dalinar would ever be, so imo T is the one with the better plan. edit: on Nin and killing surgebinders - Tanavast can't suggest them to be killed, because that would be against his shardic intention. I don't think he ever said to use the KR to fight Odium or have them use surgebinding in any way. I'm not ruling the possibility of Nalan having a point just yet.

I agree Adolin wasn't in his best state of mind. Normally I would have guessed that in such a situation he'd go for the weapon he's most familiar with preciously because he's not thinking clearly, but he went for his knife instead of Blade. I don't think Sadeas didn't summon his Blade because he didn't think Adolin would go that far. I mean, Adolin started to choke him and when they fell on the gound Adolin declared he wasn't as good as Dalinar thought him to be, then reached for his side knife and stabbed Sadeas in the eye. Adolin... uh, declared his intentions pretty clearly and Sadeas had enough time to summon his Blade. Sadeas had been a professional soldier as long as Dalinar. How could he forget his best weapon when his life was in danger? It just felt that the only reason was it was convenient for the plot. I'm not satisfied with that, honestly.

I don't see it as a fair fight to unexpectedly jump on someone who's talking to you regardless of how hurt you were, but I won't argue about it. The lack of Shardblades was a surprice to me. I can accept that Adolin wasn't thinking clearly (and thank the Almighty for that, at least noone will suspect a Shardbearer now). But how and why didn't Sadeas summon his Blade? That's the ultimate defense when you're being over-powered. Did he forget he had one?

Then lets agree to disagree on Nalan. I give him the benefit of doubt. Dalinar will have to fight to unite anyone. No country would want to be 'united'. Dalinar is considered a mad-man and most people hate Radiants. I don't think even the everstorm will make other countries willing to join Alethkar, so he'll have to unite them by force, much like T is doing, but Vargo has an actual plan unlike Dalinar. The best Dalinar can say is some 'I have a vision'-speech that most people will reject. I understand why T won't try to join forces with Dalinar. Dalinar is a tyrant and also he'd never stand for what T had done, so there's no way for Dalinar and the new KR to join T. Humanity however doesn't have the time to discuss moral and ethics. edit: spelling

I don't think it will oblige Kal to protect Sadeas, but it will certainly stop him from doing what Adolin did. May be when Kal finally figures out for himself if one can kill to protect, we'll know for sure. My argument is more about how Adolin killed Sadeas, though I see I haven't really explained myself well. Killing someone without giving them a chance to defend themselves (like Adolin jumped unexpectedly on Sadeas) isn't a fair fight and thus not a Windrunners method. I don't see Kal approving of anything unWindrunner-ish, though I don't expect him to be judgmental or treat Adolin differently.

For unknown to us reasons, Diagram T considered the new KR a possible hindrance. Nin also think they do more damage than good and we don't know why. I personally don't think he has just gone nuts and irrationally thinks preventing KR will prevent a Desolation, because he should know better. There are some theories around that Honor changed surgebinding or used the surges to trap Odium. I don't have enough information as it is to say whether or not the Radiants should be considered saviors or a part of potential bigger problem. Dalinar has no idea what Odium is or what's going around what so ever. The visions have so little information it's annoying. They don't show Voidbringers, the Heralds, the Dawnshards, the reason the KR broke apart, never warned Dalinar the Parshmen were potential Voidbringers and so on. In the end, the best Dalinar has is the idea of naming a champion, but no guidance as to how to do that. Tanavast never even explains what Odium is. Overall, the visions were insufferably useless. Dalinar has a rioting country, four Radiants and no idea where to start or what to expect. The only other guy with a plan is Nalan, who goes around killing criminals who are also surgebinders, because he believes that for some reason they will return the Desolation, and this doesn't seem to pay off. Just because we haven't seen the entire Diagram doesn't mean it isn't a real plan to save humanity. Vargo, Andro and their closest associates have seen it and thought it was a good enough strategy. That's more than any other characters have so far as we know.

Just because they are different doesn't mean there aren't parallels. Killing Sadeas wasn't serving justice and it wasn't right in the terms of the Windrunners' philosophy, simple as that. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here since you think Kaladin will think what Adolin did was bad, but won't judge him for it, which is what I too said in a previous post, so we actually agree on this.

I think it depends on what you define as real Skybreaker. Nalan is the original Skybreaker, so I'd say yes. The bond breaks when the Radiant goes against his/her oaths. The Skybreakers second Ideal is So, killing isn't what Skybreakers vow to do.and their oaths will break if they don't follow the law. Nin had found legal ways to execute surgebinders, who commit crimes, he doesn't wander around killing potential Radiants for no reason.

Welcome to the forum! The smashed statue was Shalash's. There's one Death Rattle from WoK chapter 55: Many believe it to be about Shalash (she's Jezrien's daughter), who's currently Baxil's mistress, and goes around destroying her own statues, thus she's doing the opposite of her Heraldic nature - destroying instead of creating, 'scratching her own eyes' so to speak. The rest, as Terisen said, will be in WoR

And what these others ways that have a good chance to save humanity? Diagram T knew about the new Radinats and thought them incapable. The champion that Tanavast suggested? He himself didn't know if that would work, whereas the Diagram has a way to ensure the survival of humanity should T be able to follow it. It's unclear whether or not Diagram T knew about the champion option and what he though of it. Obviously Honor, being bound by his shardic intention, couldn't suggest anything better. It's unknown whether or not the champion path will save as many/fewer/more people as the Diagram and if the champion option is part of the Diagram. I keep seeing people saying that there are better ways than the Diagram, but I am yet to read even one.

Just because Kal will understand why Adolin did it, doesn't mean he'll agree with it. kaellok said it very well - killing one to save many sounds like Vargo's reasoning on the Diagram and is how Kal tried to convince himself to participate in Elhokar's assassination. Now, there are some Orders who'd agree with Adolin like the Willshapers (WoB), may be Elsecallers (Jasnah has done worse) and probably some others. But not the Windrunners. Why? Because killing is wrong. Kaladin still struggles with what he has done, still doesn't know if one can kill to protect, he felt remorse for killing Parshendi and needed Syl's consolation. Kaladin has killed to protect, but what Adolin did can't be called protection, not in the same way Kaladin did it. I do not expect Kal to judge Adolin, because Windrunners aren't judges. I just don't think that was what a Windrunner would do or stand for. Windrunners are about doing what's right and Kal's thoughts and actions in WoR made it clear assassination and killing for the greater good aren't part of the Windrunners' philosophy. If there was such an Oath, then T would be a Radiant

But Nalan said he kills surgebinding criminals because they cause Desalation, he never mentioned anything about spren prohibition.

I think Shallan will have bigger problem with Kal not telling her that in the chasms than the fact he killed her brother. She already recognized her brother's murderer killed Helaran is self-defense, so she won't hate Kal. I think she'll learn the truth before Amaram's trial when Dalinar or Adolin will tell her what the trial will be about.

Shallan once reacted poorly to Adolin's promise of protection and thought of her father, despite all differences. This make me think she'll overreact to Adolin's crime. We just read her character differently on the matter. Also, Brandon said he's fond of conflicts in relationships and I think Shadolin is going to fall apart next book.

Adolin committed a crime, he assassinated Sadeas and we know Kal's opinion on assassination. What Adolin did wasn't honorable and I don't think it was what a Windrunner would do, thus I suspect Kal won't be happy about it. I don't think he'll openly stand against Adolin, but Kal will disapprove of what Adolin did. Kal himself not only stopped Elhokar's assassination, but also never tried to kill Amaram outside the law - he challenged him to a duel and didn't go to his camp to murder him in the night, despite thinking about it. Wouldn't Amaram be trialed for killing his own men and stealing Shards? He confessed and there were witnesses outside Dalinar's camp - at least one other highprince and some of his men. I can't imagine Amaram getting away and openly seizing power in the next book.

Well, Dalinar can't really pardon anyone since he isn't the king. I'm hoping Elhokar already had enough of being ordered around by his uncle and does what he thinks best in the situation regardless of Dalinar. It's about time for him to man up and be a better person and king. I think Shallan is hypocritical at times, but it isn't just that. We do have WoB what Jasnah did is worse according to Brandon, but we don't know what Shallan will think. She might very well make a twisted parallel between Adolin, being a nice guy, but killing someone in anger much like her father went from a loving and caring person to a.... Adolin isn't like her father, but I can see how what he did might remind Shallan of her father and scare her. I don't expect her to react well when she finds out. All the people Shallan killed were actively trying to kill her, whereas Sadeas was being passive aggressive/threatening Adolin, so this I think will make a huge difference in her mind and this is where I expect the said hypocrisy to kick in. I mentioned Kal, because I think he'll be back before the Sadeas's murder subplot gets resolved and I expect all major characters to participate when that happens. May be it won't be that big of a deal, it's just that WoB about the 'many ramifications' for Adolin make me think it'll be a significant part of Adolin's story arc and thus the next book.

Elhokar can pardon any crime and pardoning Adolin probably won't be too much against the public opinion. I think Adolin's greatest trouble will be with himself and Dalinar/Shallan. There are WoB some characters will react very poorly about what Adolin did and my spheres are on Shallan. Though it'd be very hypocritical of Shallan to judge him, but definitely not unlike her. source Dalinar exiling anyone is against his second Oath and I don't see him damaging his bond with the Stormfather so soon, thus I find it unlikely for Adolin to be officially exiled. May be send to Kholinar to deal with the rioters or something like that, but not permanently banished. I think Kal will be one of the characters who'd strongly disapprove. What Adolin did can be viewed as what he refused to do in WoR: 'killing a man in the dark, because we find him distasteful' (or something like that when reasoning with Moash to not murder Elhokar). Now, there's a huge difference between Sadeas and Elhokar, and also between the circumstances the (attempted) murders accured, but I'm not sure Kal will see it that way. I don't know how Renarin will react, may be disproving what Adolin did, but still being on his side. From the little we know about Truthwatchers, I'd say they tend to stay away from public affairs. Though it'd be quite the (unlikely) plot twist for Renarin to be against Adolin. Since Brandon says there will be 'lots of ramifications', I think Adolin's actions will be a significant subplot in the next book.

T wants to unite Roshar before the Desolation and he still has time. The everstorm isn't how Desolations used to start and probably isn't his main concern. I still can't find a satisfying explanation as to how could Jasnah realize something Diagram T didn't (that Parshmen are Voidbringers).Here's what Graves knows: The everstorm didn't seem to me like something T was particularly concerned about. Whether he was right or not to not worry, we'll see. T hasn't accomplished as much as I'd expect for 6 years (he only recently got Jah Keved), but he didn't have Szeth before WoK, so there's that. Though how could he lose the Truthless he created (at least he wanted to create one according to the Diagram)? Too sloppy. So may be T didn't create Szeth then? I don't know which was first - Gavilar's assassination or the Diagram. But I agree T seems too slow unless the Diagram plans for him to acquire most of his future lands in a fast-paced manner and he was preparing all those years for a few grand moves.

But the Diagram isn't broken - it predicted both the appearance of the new KR and the possibility of Dalinar uniting Alethkar. If Diagram T knew about the new KR, then he must have realized someone like that may kill Szeth; he certainly speculated on the idea of Szeth turning against him, so he had predicted the possibility of Szeth meeting a surgebinder. For now, the Diagram stays correct. After sending the message about the everstorm, Dalinar described Vargo as the only willing to listen monarch. So T didn't play dumb or doubtful, didn't delay his response, and overall didn't react like the others. This makes me think the Diagram has at least some guidelines on what to do should Dalinar's assassination fail.

I want to be a Truthwatcher! I've always been fond of superpowers allowing foresight and healing; Progression and Illumination are my favorite surges so far; Creating Illusions and being invisible is awesome; I'd prefer to heal and support over do much fighting myself; I find their attributes appealing; Green is my favorite color; So far I can best relate to their description.

I said she wasn't close to her family, not that they have no relationship, which is different. As for Dalinar and Jasnah - I was very disappointed he didn't mourn her death, not even when comforting Navani. Overall, only her mother missed her. I can understand Adolin and Ren probably barely knew her and we don't have Elhokar's PoV, but Dalinar didn't seem touched by the loss of his only niece. He defended Elhokar, because 'he's all Dalinar has left of Gavilar' and never did Dalinar think Jasnah was also part of his brother's legacy. I expected at least some emotion, even if it was 'no time to mourn her now', but he never thought even that.

It's not like Jasnah has any friends except (arguably) Shallan. She's not even close to her own family - only her mother mourned her. We don't know what's her relationship with Ivory. Overall, Jasnah could really use some relationships in her story arc. Not necessarily romantic, but definitely relationships with people on equal grounds. I don't want her character to change and become a people's person, but to open and connect with her family and has a few close friendships. I wonder if Jasnah will start to like Hoid or stab him with her Blade, but it'll be fun to read either way. I ship Jasadin, but frankly I don't see potential for even a friendship there, neither will have the time or the interest in the other person any time soon.

Are you sure? I mean, Shallan's mentors tend to get killed... It's a pattern! (sorry, I couldn't resist ) This is so awesome, it deserves its own thread!

It does seem ironic, as if the efforts to stop the return of the Parshendi gods was what triggered the Everstorm, but we know from what Jasnah said that Everstorm isn't how the typical Desolation had began and the Stormfather says It seems Gavilar had the same visions or at least they contained the same information as those Dalinar had: What I find most interesting is that Diagram T wasn't absolutely sure the Everstorm would return the voidbringers and didn't predict them to be Parshmen. As brilliant as Jasnah is, I'm surprised she discovered something so essential that Diagram T has missed. May be it's not Diagram T who missed something. edit:However, Amaram didn't seem to know the term and wasn't expecting the Everstorm: so may be Gavilar didn't share everything with him. Also, Tanavast knew about the Everstorm, but didn't find it important enough to warn Dalinar about the Parshmen. It's seems unreasonable, he must have known. He never showed Dalinar any Voidbringers. Overall, the visions aren't as useful as I'd expect. The only explanation I can think of is that some pact between him and Odium prevented Tanavast from sharing more.