RShara

I think it's all of the above for Ishar, considering what Brandon said. Uppermost, he think he is God, and everyone should worship him. Below that, he wants everyone dead. And deep down, he wants to be dead himself.

Or a blob of crem. Are the oceans on Roshar salty?

Also, this instance from Oathbringer makes me think they are feeling some of Taln's torment. @The One Who Connects: I was totally going to quote that WoB but you beat me to it What do you suppose he means by that, though? Given that he's mad, and anything he says should be taken with a big hunk of salt... Do you suppose opening yourself up to the Nahel bond opens yourself up to other things that are...not so healthy? I ask because the only thing I can think of that would fit "attracted them, befriended them..." are the spren.

Oops, I just found this deleted scene that Brandon wrote between WoR and OB. It's not completely canon, but painspren are described as quite dangerous in Shadesmar. https://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/

That's a great read. Yeah, humans and Parshendi are definitely closely enough related to interbreed, but are *not* the same species. Similar to how Homo Sapiensand Homo Neaderthalensis interbred.

Did you see the post I linked? There's Lifespren as the shardplate for Edgedancers and so forth.

I can't remember for sure, but not terribly long ago. A few hundred years? I'm about 80% sure it was after the Hierocracy.

Well, the ones we've had viewpoints from don't seem particularly torn up about it.

I'd forgotten that Ishar wanted *everyone* dead, including himself. Good point!

I wonder if he went to see Ishar, who convinced him to side with Odium. Ishar wants to conquer the world and using the Parshendi to soften up the other kingdoms could be a motivation. In fact, didn't he do just that?

I think breaking the Oathpact has had some lasting effect on their psyches. Also, just being alive that dang long might have some funnnny effects on them. Living every day with the knowledge that they broke their oath to Honor, of all people, lied to an entire planet, and were being honored (haha) for something they didn't do (actually kind of broke), plus likely a buttload of PTSD, for 4500 years......wow. Also, it was Ishar that told Nale that surgebinders were a danger. Given that Ishar is actually completely insane as well, his information is questionable at best.

My problem with this is that Rayse has held the Shard for a LONG time. Presuming that he still is able to maintain control of the Intent to a degree, it's still going to have a huge influence on his thoughts and actions. At this point, if he were Passion, imo, he would *have* exhibit more than just hatred and anger in his uses of power. And as I mentioned early, and Incalculable just mentioned, Odium doesn't ever create anything. He twists and corrupts and consumes what's already there. Edit: Also, I didn't know that the Rhythms were a phenomenon of the SR. That's amazing!

There's a great thread here that I reference so often, I think I need to bookmark it!

Jasnah actually reveals that Renarin's spren *doesn't* look like a normal Truthwatcher spren. I don't think she has revealed this to Dalinar yet. She might not--she might want to protect Renarin and think over the ramifications first. Renarin's only been able to use one of a Truthwatcher's surges, Regrowth. He hasn't been able to Lightweave at all. He can, however, see the future, which is of Odium. So the theory is that he has access to one Surgebinder power and one Voidbinder power. Also, here's a great thread about Renarin:

But why does he *never* corrupt positive emotions? He could have twisted the Kholin's troops' love of Dalinar into over-defensiveness, and possessed them, then he'd have had two armies in Thaylenah. When he failed to twist Dalinar with the Thrill, why didn't he twist love into jealousy? He *never* twists a positive emotion, even when it would be advantageous, or when a negative emotion failed.

Is it possible they scoured Aimia themselves, to protect whatever it is that could cause the ends of worlds?

Quoting from the Odium is Broken thread.

That's a GREAT point.

No, see, twisting his passion toward Navani could easily turn him incredibly envious of any man who looks at her twice. Then that could be used to get him to attack his own people in a huge fit of jealousy, like what he almost did when younger. From there, it's not a huge step to getting to believe that he needs to exterminate all humans everywhere, in order to have Navani for himself and only himself.

I made this argument in the other thread. Odium doesn't ever create or inspire any form of passion. He takes what's already there, and twists it to the worst version of it. And he *never* uses a "positive" emotion, such as love, joy, etc. Hatred and undiscerning anger seemed to be the ones he was able to use the most, with things like short-sighted greed and the like coming next.

If he could increase positive emotion, I think that he would have in at least a few circumstances to make his arguments more persuasive or to recruit followers. Instead, he seems to need people to already have passionate emotions, and then corrupts them toward the worst form. And it's never a positive emotion that he manages to use. I mean, Dalinar has pretty passionate love for Navani. But that's not the emotion that Odium uses to try and control Dalinar.

I understand what you're saying, but I feel like you are splitting hairs here. Very well, they are examples of emotions that can be passionate. Just like hunger, anger, hatred, and desire. The four I listed can be passionate (thought I would argue that joy and hope, at least, are generally "barely containable emotions"). But Odium never exhibits them. Whereas he exhibits gluttony, rage, hatred, and lust. Also there are already passionspren, and they aren't from Odium.

Love, Joy, Hope and Exhilaration can all qualify for that.

I'm not talking about what Syl knows, information wise. I'm talking about what she senses. I'm sure her senses are sensitive enough to feel Odium's attention and the Intent behind it. Love, Joy, Hope, Exhilaration are examples of positive passion. I never said that Ruin lied. I said he misrepresented himself. Phrasing deliberate. He represents destruction. There's change in that, but it's not *just* change, it's destructive change. Leaving that part out is the misrepresentation. Lying by omission is misrepresentation. (Not to mention, he didn't create humans, exactly...he *recreated* them based off of the existing template). As I've said before, I'm sure that Odium (and Ruin) did not directly lie, and also spoke what they saw as the truth . That doesn't mean that it was the total truth, with context. What a Shard says is not always what you think a Shard says! Brandon has plenty of experience lying with the truth after writing Wheel of Time.

Ah, I see. It's certainly a possibility. We don't know enough about their original motivations to guess much, really.