Metacognition

For clarity, if you have questions about this game and its mechanics, Seonid is right. Ask them here because Seonid knows the ins and outs of their game. But if you have questions about the format of the SE games as a whole, our Q&A thread is also there to help players with any general questions you might have. And it's worthwhile to use it because you'll be able to get advice from multiple people with different ways of playing. Just another place you can go for helpful advice and information. Welcome!

Very well, then here's a rule specifically for you, Hael: You have to RP in each post you make, at least a little, and not take the game too seriously. I'll be watching.

What would work better on you? Words of encouragement or threats of punishment? The carrot or the stick? Cause, personally, while I might do something because I'm told to, I won't change unless I want to.

The reason nothing has changed before now is because no one thinks of themselves as the problem. "If we just had such-and-such rule, that would fix things." or "It's those other players that are the problem. They're not doing anything." Stuff like that. And then they continue to do what they've always done and nothing happens. That's why I brought it up like this. As you said, there have been movements before (the Contribution Crusade and my Spartans thing for example), but no one really backed them up. We could establish a rule tomorrow that requires a minimum of three posts per turn in a game or else you get a warning and, eventually, blacklisted. What do you think the outcome would be? Cause I'm pretty sure that after awhile, 90% of players would wind up being blacklisted and rather than having 20 or so people in a game, we'd be lucky to get double digits. New people wouldn't join up as readily because they're not sure they could meet the requirements. And, due to that, eventually there wouldn't be an SE anymore. That's why it's not about the addition of more rules. It won't stop people from doing what they already do. If you want to change it, you've got to start with how you approach it. By all means, play to win. That's why it's a game to begin with. But that shouldn't be the only focus or even the most important focus. We need to prioritize stuff other than that and that's not something you can do with a rule. It starts with the players.

You see what you just did here? You prioritized winning over everything else. This is why things don't change; not because there's not enough rules and regulations in place. People could spend more time RPing or other stuff, but instead, the focus for the majority of people right now is on trying to win the game rather than having fun. That's a part of what made a lot of the earlier games so much fun in comparison. Sure, people were still trying to win, but there was just as much of a focus on interacting with the setting that had been created. That's why there was so much RP in early games in comparison to now. Now, if you're not contributing to finding the Eliminators, then you're doing something wrong and are killed off for it. You guys, the players, are dictating what kind of behavior and thus what kind of games you want via your actions. GMs rarely receive much in the way of feedback when they write up end-of-turn scenarios and no one interacts with their settings and events. Thus, GMs become complacent about even doing write ups as much as they used to. Everyone has to engage in the debates and investigation of other players or else be seen as suspicious and thus people that don't have much to say on that front (or are daunted by it) don't say anything at all; leading to more inactivity. The fact that everyone needs to be aggressively going after the Eliminators turns more passive players away; thus creating a breeding ground of only certain kinds of players. This is the essence of what a metagame is; players influencing not only what kind of games they want (for example, the recent trend of complex games), but also how those games are played. Take the other forum I played at on Cracked. The goal there is still to win, but they prioritize trying to be as funny as possible during the process and it shows in the feel and the spirit of their games. The reason the Reckoners RPG is so lighthearted is because they prioritize the dramatic element rather than min-maxing their characters. So when people say things like that it is unlikely to occur by itself, what you're really saying is that you don't really want to prioritize those things above and beyond what you've already prioritized. And this is also why a bunch of additional rules and regulations isn't going to really help. It's you guys as players that need to shift the focus. That'll help far more than anything else.

That's cause I haven't revealed it to anyone yet. Partially because I like to keep things a secret as long as possible and mostly because I haven't finished it yet.... Alas, I'm going to have to set it aside for now as is. I've got the AG to build first and foremost and after that, classes will be starting back up again. If I get it built before I go back, then maybe I'll be able to run it.

The Co-GMing option is one of the ones on our list; along with a few other options. EDIT for Sart's bit: That was another idea we had- where we get new GMs to use the Game Creation thread for their games more and that they can't run it until the game has been "vetted" by at least 3 other more experienced GMs. We've been looking into a lot of the "problems" that have been brought up here, as well as a few that haven't been mentioned. We have a few ideas of our own, but please remember that these things also take time. We consider every change from as many angles as possible. What could the consequences of doing ______ be? What else could we do? How would that affect this thing over here? For example, before Wilson brought it up, no one really considered the ramifications of stipulating that GMs aren't allowed to run more complex games initially. But, that's something we need to consider before we just modify things. To do otherwise would cause us to constantly be reacting to new problems that our solutions created rather than trying to improve everything. So please do discuss and help us brainstorm ideas. But don't expect those ideas to be put into place tomorrow or anything. We need time to not only implement those changes, but to go over them in great detail as well. Think of it kind of like trying to balance a game within a game within a game; because that's pretty close to what we have to do. If we break something, it could break not just the subforum, but the GM's games and thus every players' experience as well. Besides, the most powerful force of change in these games is not the addition of new rules or us. It's you guys and the metagame. If everyone decides that they don't want to deal with something (like inactivity) or want more of something (like RP), to the point that they put it ahead of winning, then those things happen. If you want more RP, don't kill people for writing just RP or even give them a little more leeway when it comes to voting for them. Trust me, you give the Elims a reason to do something that would help them, they'll probably take you up on it, so you'd at least get more RP from them. Don't want a lot of inactivity? Make it a point to kill off those that aren't contributing or don't kill those that are talking. Granted, that won't stop some of the habitual inactives, but those are areas where, as Wilson pointed out, that we can step in and help with. Point is, we can make hundreds of rules. They can have addendums and subclauses and reprecrussions and be hundreds of pages long. But that pales in comparison to what you guys can do to shape the games. And that's how it should be, IMO. These games are all about you, the players, after all.

It's not like this thread is going anywhere guys. It's here to be a cultural monument of our time here. A thread that highlights the creativity and inspiration created from these games. Something to invoke a comfortable space for those that want to do something special and beyond what is typical and celebrate them for doing so. It's almost like a museum; full of reflection and dignity and grace. Where people can share their work and get the acclaim they deserve. Aaaannnndddd we have a lot of people basically claiming, "First!" by reserving spots they have nothing for.... Yep. This is definitely still the internet! Btw, I still beat you all to it, so there!

Reserved for Origin Story.

Hoid crept through the night, following the map he kept locked inside his head. Yes, he was close now. He reached some marker that was only known to him and took a breath. As he let it out, he entered Shadesmar…. He had been spot on. Before him, in Shadesmar, was what was known as the SEAcropolis. It was never on any of the old maps or the new ones, but if you were in the right place (and only the right place), you could get there. It didn’t seem to matter what world you were on either. It was as if this place existed in all the worlds and none of them at the same time. It was one of the few places where he felt he could relax and just take in the sights; and what sights the SEAcropolis held…. Welcome to the SEAcropolis! For those of you who are not aware, Acropolis literally means “Upper City” in greek. The most famous one being the Acropolis in Athens during the Roman Empire. It was a cultural hub for the city that surrounded it and housed some of the most famous structures in the Roman Empire, like the Parthenon. Now, we have one too. Our Acropolis is for SE-related creations that you guys come up with. There have already been some great things created in games and Docs alike and it’s a shame that they never really get to see the light of day. So here is a place for all of those awesome creations; things like song parodies based on different games, or pieces of art inspired from the games, or short stories based on characters or events from here, or banners that you created for the games, or basically anything that is SE-related that you’ve created. Remember though, this is for SE-related work only! The forum already has a place for other artwork and stories and such. As much as I’m sure everyone would love to see everyone else’s artwork, this is for the niche stuff that is something that only those that play the games would really care about; AKA, our own cultural artifacts, if you will. There is one rule that we need to state here: You are not allowed to post anything you’ve created from an ongoing game until that game is finished. Sorry. Feel free to create as much amazingness as you want, but you’ll have to wait until the game finishes to post it. This way, nothing could accidentally give the game away or be used to confirm yourself or any of a hundred other little possibilities. Other than that, let your imaginations run wild and let’s fill our SEA with the brilliance and creativity that only comes from fending off death on a daily basis!

Looks live we've already got a convert. It's addictive, isn't it? Aaaannnd the mind games already start. There's no better way to initiate someone, so well done, Elenion! I do hope that we get another game set in the Lightbringer series. I died far too quickly (and in a game I barely realized I was in) in this one and it really is a rich world. Thanks again to Straw and El for running it and for, hopefully, instigating other people running games in this setting!

That was really close! Thanks for pulling out the win, Dani and Chaos!

Never heard of that one before, but after reading the first few pages, I think I'll start! In that idea though, I'll wait to read your game until I've gotten a decent way in.

I think you're being a bit too opportunistic here, Alv. As has been pointed out, lynching someone who hasn't been very active doesn't help us much when we likely* have ways of dealing with inactives that don't distract from the lynch. Beyond that, you're using it as an excuse to go after me; someone that you'll, if I'm right, want to take out as soon as possible on the off chance that I do become active later on. If you can do so without wasting a kill and without giving too much away in the lynch, I could see you taking that chance. *I am concerned about all these people who keep claiming to be so sure that we have some sub-reds on the village side. Unless they are themselves sub-reds, there's no saying for sure. I will try to be around and discuss as much as possible, but as I said before and as Alv pointed out, I don't have a lot of time right now. Heck, it was a surprise to find out that I was actually signed up! I never came back and said that I had time to play at the moment. I'll at least try to keep up and add my two cents for as long as I survive, but I can't be the motivator and discussion starter that I tend to be. Sorry.

How have all of you never heard of Brent Weeks and the Lightbringer series?!? You should all be ashamed of yourselves. All joking aside, I do recommend the series. The magic system is actually very unique and the story is shaping up to be quite epic. Weeks is probably my second favorite fantasy writer right now; coming after Sanderson, of course. I really shouldn't sign up. I didn't have enough time for the LG and so I doubt I'll have time for this either. But we'll see. If my schedule opens up a bit more after this upcoming week, I'll join in. We need at least one person who knows the source material after all!

When both Alv and I say this is a bad idea, there's probably a reason for it.

As Wilson's reaction shows, you have no know idea what you've released upon our Cosmere. Even when Wilson is being nice, you shouldn't assume that there isn't an ulterior motive. In fact, I'd say that there's plenty of reason to expect the opposite! Beyond that, Len you just gave up a major, reoccurring, artifact without wanting anything in return. That's like Indiana Jones gladly giving up the Holy Grail to the Nazis because they "only" kidnapped his dad rather than killing him and calling it square. It's too late now, but next time, at least try to bargain for something for yourself!

To give you an idea, I've played as a Santa-like inventor that gave toys to impoverished children; a veteran that sent money home to his family; a little girl that just wanted to survive with her brother; a wheelchair bound boy that wanted nothing more than to be accepted; and many more. All of them were ruthlessly killed in the name of "justice." If you think that our players will flinch, even just a little bit, at killing you just because of your name, you're highly underestimating the blood lust here. Not to mention possible sacrilege reasons. I really wish I could take part in this. The complexity of this game has me itching to figure out how it'll play out. Unfortunately, I have far too much on my plate right now as is and I have to request being added to the Spec Doc. If there's not spoilers in there and I can get everything under control before it starts, I'll gladly join! I just wouldn't expect it at this point.

Called it.

You know, overall, I'm flattered that you think I could be such a mastermind as to think 3-4 turns ahead of time and know what kind of situations would come up and thus be able to plan for them as early as Day 2. Cause that would be what would need to happen for me to be a Returned at this point. I would need to know that the Returned's plan with Mark would fail and then buss Ecthelion and Lopen (whom I was one of the first people to vote for him, remember?). During all this, I go out of my way to make myself suspicious by calling for Mark's death and attacking people who will be looked at favorably after the results come in. And I would do all this and know that all this was going to happen just so I could make the claim that I would have to have been a pretty horrible Eliminator to do all of those things. Like I said, I'm flattered, but sorry, I'm not even close to that omniscient. In fact, the only reason I think that I'm still alive is due to how off a lot of my reads have been! My only good read was catching Lopen and that was mainly based on gut after finding out about Mark. I feel like I've been neglecting my gut this entire game in favor of trying to find evidence where there isn't any. And that's why I'm going back with my gut from Day 1 and going with Magestar. I had a bad read on him since early on and I allowed myself to be convinced of otherwise. And I'm not the only one. Many people have had concerns about him throughout the entire game. I don't want to go back and hunt for them all, but most of those people are dead now. Then there's just the last cycle or so. He seemed/s adamant about getting Sheep lynched for one. As I pointed out during the last day turn, he accused Mint of trying to draw votes off of who he saw as an Elim while trying to get people to pile onto Sheep. Heck, the fact that he was trying to get as many votes onto Sheep as possible and then we have another situation where a ton of votes are negated (which I'll get to in a min) makes it seem to me as if he already knew that there were going to be a lot of Awakened Clothings being used. And what about the vote negation? This almost exactly the same situation that we had with Mark and the only other person to even mention such has been Doc! What makes this time any different than the last and we know how the last one went. If I had to guess, I'd say that the Returned saw what happened last time and now they're using it to try to draw some heat off of Magestar by having him do practically exactly what I did. He just seems too adamant about this for him to not have some additional knowledge to give him reasoning for it. Even his reasoning for wanting to lynch Sheep from above doesn't back up his fervor for this lynch to the point where he's ignoring what has happened in the past in this very game. Mark was saved and a villager lynched that turn too. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice though.... Finally, there's the bit that Luckat brought up about the number of Returned left*. If Sheep did use Awakened Clothing to help try to save himself, that could've accounted for some of the actions. But, we still have to account for two Rabbits and their Breath steal . There were two Rabbit attacks and no Breath steal this last turn. If we consider that the Returned doing the Breath Steal was Roped (the most likely scenario, IMO), then that means that either one Returned is controlling both Rabbits or that there are at least 2 other Returned other than the Breath Steal-er. It's just a logical deduction. So Magestar is uber, ultimately, convinced of Sheep's guilt, but is down playing the number of Returned we're likely dealing with? If there is three of them then, if they get another mislynch here and they get their kills to go through, they're pretty well set to win the following day. Seems to me like a perfect time for them to go with the same type of plan as they went with before and I think they're pushing for it pretty hard right now. And this is just what I remember from the last day. If I went back through the entire game, I'm sure I could pull even more evidence that Magestar is a Returned, but it's been voiced by so many people by this point that I think we've all had this thought as some point in time. I'll do so though, if needed though. We need to make this lynch count and I'm willing to bet on Magestar being Returned. *Something else with this and the counting of actions. While not proof by any means, just another thing I noticed. Magestar has been very forthcoming with his day actions, but that still leaves him a night action to use; of which we know nothing about. Perhaps the reason we didn't have a Breath Steal last night is because Magestar wound up having to use both his actions this day turn and forgot that he had already used up his action for last night. EDIT: I forgot to color my vote

First off Alex, you vote in RED, not green. Green is for retracting votes. Like how I'm retracting mine on Doc with this, see? Second, I'm not quite sure that I buy your story. Since Lopen was a Returned, I don't see why he'd want to try to draw inactives back into the game when that would make things even harder on them; especially with how many inactives they've been stealing Breath from. Even if he was hunting for information, he wouldn't have needed to get information from inactives. I think last cycle was just a beginner attempt to make themselves seem innocent after the death of a teammate. Then there's this: If we can trust Luckat, and I see no reason why we can't at this point, the fact that you avoided talking to a fairly confirmed villager, but opened contact with Lopen is suspicious. I've known a lot of new Eliminators that are afraid to talk to reputable players because they're afraid that, in their inexperience, they will give themselves away. You accuse Mint of trying to turn the lynch off of someone and then you try to do exactly that as well? Luckat beat me to it, but this is a huge red flag for me.

Okay, what the heck guys.We find two of the Returned and now we just roll over and die? We seriously need to be discussing what's going on. For example, no one died last night from having their breath stolen. That could mean that we either have another Potential Returned on our hands or someone won the Lottery. I'd really appreciate it if the person who had their Breath stolen would step forward. I understand why they haven't; they'll likely be looked at with some suspicion. But, I think that the benefits to us as a whole outweighs that. It's highly unlikely that the Returned would attack their own to garner trust this late in the game so we'll be able to know that the person is either turned or a Villager. Another thing I wanted to point out is that Lopen died with two Awakened Clothings. I think that we might be thinking that there are more Returned than there really are based on their vote manipulation during day 2. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there are only two of them left and they tried to inflate the concept of how many of them there are with the vote manip. Which brings me to my main suspicion at the moment. As I said before, knowing what we do now, Doctor12 seemed to jump a little too quickly onto my push for Mark's lynch. His continued conviction that Bard must be good because he scanned him, when scans don't reveal alignment or any thing that would actually determine that someone was innocent (unless he scanned for items and saw whether or not Bard had a Rabbit and even that doesn't clear Bard from being a Returned), seems more like someone that knows that they're right than someone making a guess. And finally, while I'm also of the opinion that there's likely an inactive Returned, the fact that he's pushing for an inactive* to be lynched makes me think that he wants us to waste this lynch. If I'm right, I'd sort of trust Bard. I think that Doctor12 is latching onto a "true" scan rather than trying to cover for one of his teammates and the way that he went after Maegstar last turn seemed more reminiscent to what happened with me and Mark than an actual attempt to pull votes off of Lopen. *Speaking of inactives, I'll admit right now that I've had terrible luck with the Lottery. Not that I expected much, since I have horrible luck when things come down to chance like that, but I've only won once so far. My point being that if I'm losing, that means that other people are winning. So if anyone has enough for a Rabbit of our own, now would be a good time to make one. I'd rather we use the lynch to focus on finding the active Returned and we start killing off the inactives during the night.

First off Lopen, that's horrible reasoning. We all make mistakes after all. You can't expect me to get it right every time. Second, to address Luckat's points, that seems like a lot of work for me to go through to get a single villager lynched. Which, afterwards, would make me look pretty suspicious, as you've proven. I truly thought that Mark was a Returned. It's the only thing that made sense to me. As PK pointed out, there just wasn't any reason for them to alert us to the fact that they had all of that voting power (not to mention a rough estimate of their numbers). They could have saved that for when one of their own was up for the lynch and then we would've been scrambling to figure out how to counter the vote negates, as we did this time. Instead, we were prepared for it and we found and lynched Ecthelion because of it. So someone explain how this master plan by the Returned was supposed to make sense in any other way? Even if we had gone after Mark first, we would've been back to Ecthelion soon enough and been prepared to make sure our lynch would go through. Beyond that, PK was one of us that wanted to go after Mark and he wound up dead. Which to me, looked like them trying to silence someone that was talking sense. If anything, I'd say that I've been too vocal about wanting to lynch Mark for it to make sense for me to be Returned. If Mark hadn't died, I would've still been pushing for his lynch this turn because the logic behind what happened is just too wonky, even knowing that it's true. Here's what happened, IMO, and it's the only thing that I think makes sense of this craziness: I had a fairly strong case for Mark on Day 2. Since he wasn't a Returned, the Returned decided to take advantage of it. The idea being that they'd get Mark lynched and then everyone would turn on me for targeting Mark. What they forgot to account for was the votes on Ecthelion and they needed to make some last minute changes. Thus why Lopen wound up switching his vote so late in the Day. His vote change and the negation on one of Ecthelion's votes took it from a tie between Araris and Ecthelion to Araris getting lynched. I think they waited as long as they could for someone else to break that tie and when no one else did, they needed to do it themselves. My other main suspect right now is Doc12. The way he and Ecthelion followed me on the vote for Mark the other day felt more like them trying to get a secondary bandwagon started rather than an actual attempt to get Mark lynched. Plus, I question this: The Strawmen don't scan alignment. Just Number of Breaths, Items, and Actions. So what makes you say that?

I'm still unconvinced that this isn't just a misdirection, but if not, we don't want them to be able to mess with the vote. Thus, Mark, Ecthelion.

Are we seriously being distracted from lynching Mark? Unless someone blocked him last night (and even then, if he performed two actions, it still might have gone through), we had our first Lifeless Rabbit kill last night. This is right after they saved Mark from the lynch the previous day. I don't think that it's a coincidence. And now we're being sidetracked into focusing on someone else, thus protecting Mark from dying yet again. I'm almost positive that Mark must be the Rabbit Holder and they're trying to keep him alive as long as possible. If I'm right, I think Luckat is likely a Returned as well. Before there was the craziness from the last day, she was the one that suggested that everyone make Clothing. It makes it a lot more difficult to scan for whomever might have caused all the negation when everyone has Clothing, which I think was the idea. She was setting it up so that they wouldn't be found out if they needed to use their clothing. I'll bet that she didn't expect to need it so soon. And now, she's trying to get us to focus away from Mark for the second time. In fact, I'm suspicious of everyone that's just following her logic without providing their own at this point. Guys, we need to take out the biggest threat first. If we don't lynch the Rabbit Holder this time, then two more of us are likely going to die the next night. While I agree that we should be watching Ecth, the only evidence against him at this point is that he might have won the lottery or he might have Returned and the fact that the Returned (unless someone else was also messing with the votes yesterday) decided to get Araris lynched over him; probably because he is getting so much suspicion. On the other hand, I laid out multiple reasons why Mark is likely a Returned and then they go out of their way to save him (from how the votes were supposed to be, there wasn't a subtle way for them to try to save Mark) and then we start seeing Rabbit kills. I will not be distracted so that the Returned can get more kills. Sidenote: Luckat, how are you so sure that Deathclutch was the target and Silverblade gave up their breath? It seems to me that it could just as easily be the other way around and that you know more than you're letting on here. EDIT: I also found this while going back through the game: Considering that we now know that it was either Silverblade or Deathclutch, is it just me or does Luckat seem to be fairly omniscient so far this game? Like far more than she has any right to be.