Gloom

Or they may be the remains of the buildings in which the ten orders were located if Urithiru fell out of Shadesmar and shattered the plains. We can assume that the Shattered Plains are shattered because of some kind of energy release, and an entire city being ejected from Shadesmar would certainly manifest a large release of energy. I will agree that it's possible that the Shattered Plains are a gateway to Urithiru, but I find it at least as likely that the Shattered Plains are the remains of Urithiru.

I respectfully disagree. I don't believe that their is any conclusive evidence to substantiate your theory. It's all smoke and shadows. Kaladin is the farthest along in his Nahel bond and Syl has not mentioned any additional spren bonds being required to become a wind runner. I might buy that there is going to be a second spren required specifically to create Shards, but this would also just be a guess, and I doubt it would be an active bond. This idea that multiple spren are required to become a KR is attractive because we want a reason to believe that all KR are bound to Honor even if it is just through spren. What I've seen in reading of this book is more along the lines of the Wind Runners leading the KR. It was the Wind Runners that were the example, and that held the other orders up to a high standard. They are the order of Jezrian the Storm Father, they represent oaths, they represent nobility, they represent leadership. They were the binding force that held the KR together, and it was likely that they were the force that ended the orders. I think there is already a high potential for conflict between spren and human as it is. The more personalities you add to the mix, the less likely it becomes that anyone would be able to maintain the Nahel bond. Fortunately, this debate should be answered definitively in WoR.

This doesn't explain Kaladin. Sylphrena has already stated that he is a Wind Runner. He only has a single spren bond, and he is on the second ideal.

I would agree that stone is, or at least will be, significant in the Archive. Between Rock, Tien, and the religious beliefs of the Shinovar, we have strong reason to believe this is so. What that significance will be is beyond me. All I know for certain is that enough of the creatures that serve Odium during the Desolation's were hard enough that weapons capable of cutting stone were required to defeat them.

My bad, all these worlds get me confused sometimes. I actually meant Scadrial. You're right, Sel has been pretty low keep as far as cosmere shattering events are concerned.

I think having the Oath Pact restored to the flawed thing that it was where Heralds are forced to suffer endless torture to protect humanity from the gods is kind of pointless. That wouldn't even be a resolution, just a return to how things were prior to the Heralds abandoning their oaths. How long would it take before the next set of Heralds could no longer take the abuse? How many more near genocidal slaughters (desolations) would need to occur before accomplishing genocide in truth? What happens when some of these new Heralds decide they would be better off working with Odium? Tanavast was the holder of the Honor Shard. It is unlikely he could lie, or even create something that would be misleading. Unless you're disputing that Dalinars visions are from Tanavast, it certainly looked like Odium was intent on destroying all life on Roshar. Hoid has his own mission. I think of him as an agent of change. I'm fairly certain he isn't looking to restore the status-quot. Even if everything else was true, I believe Hoid would still interfere to try to put Odium at a greater disadvantage than he was in initially. Dalinar is the Black Thorn. He is a warrior and I believe he will fight to the bitter end. He may be seeking to find a resolution to the war with the Parshendi, but, in my opinion, this isn't because he is tired of war, it is because he wants to make Alethekar stronger. I don't see Dalinar ever consenting to be Odiums punching bag for all eternity. I'm under the impression that Dalinar believes in decisive victories and doesn't hesitate to do hat is needed to achieve them. I believe that he is being prepared not as a Herald, but as the next holder of the Honor Shard. From what I understand of the Cosmere, things are out of balance. Life as a whole is under threat. If the Cosmere is to continue, then some decisive victories need to be made. The events on Sel were a step in this direction, but while that victory was important, it wasn't decisive enough to turn the tide.

A major plot point would revolve around a childrens game. All the female surge binders would consider all the male surge binders insane...or maybe just illiterate Shallan would have viewings...or maybe just draw extremely accurate pictures of things that aren't visible Kaladin would be so bedazzled by Shallan that he'd fall off a wall the first time he saw her. The Ghost Knights would be heroes of the past trapped in a horn that could only be blown by one waif that Kaladin adopts because he looks like Tien. The void bringers wouldn't leave home without their stew pots.

Kaladin would have to travel across the world to find the Shard that isn't a Shard in a fortress that can't be breached, while being pursued by one of the ten fools. Navani would be trapped in the Tranquil Halls for six books and presumed dead. Dalinar will pine over her loss all the way up to the last book, at which point Renarin will rescue her and bring her back so she can hold Kaladins hand and tell him to be a good boy.

What if the NightWatcher is the physical representation of the Oath Pact? It honors all agreements, and curses all who visit. That would be Honor and Odium, still not sure where Cultivation would come into it. Perhaps the ability to see the long term affects of the curse and limit the damage it can do, or the ability to alter and rearrange things to meet the requirements of the punishment, IDK. It's been speculated that a control of some sort must exist in order to keep all parties bound to the Oath Pact. If a Shard can manifest physically as a pool, why wouldn't the power invoked by such a pact also have a physical manifestation. This manifestation could be sentient or it could have been given a guardian in order to better arbitrate violations of the pact. The NightWatcher doesn't easily fall into any one category, but could far more easily fall into a mixture of the three.

If this were the Forgotten Realms, this would be The Year of Dark Delays. Mr. Sanderson is just one of so very many authors who have pushed back release dates I've been anticipating this year. I'm somewhat thankful that he gave plenty of notice instead of pushing the release back at the last minute like most of the other authors have done. I'm also hopeful, because Brandon is one of the few authors who have been known to push up release dates when things go smoothly. What I would love to see happen, (though I know it's a pipe dream) is an arc release when the book is approved by the pubisher for print instead of having to wait till the book is released in Hard Cover to get a copy of it.

This would make it a betrayal, yes? It sounds wrong? It very well could be, but remember, their are hints in the book that suggested that all was not well with the Knights Radiant leading up to the Recreance. This could have just been peoples perception of things, but it could also have been foreshadowing. There are various reasons why the Knights Radiant may have discarded their 'friends'. Perhaps their 'friends' asked them to do something that they couldn't countenance. So they decided as a group to discard their Shards and renounce their oaths. It could have been to destroy the Parsh, or even to destroy humanity, They may have told the Knights Radiant the truth about the Heralds. They may have asked them to hunt the Heralds down and bring them to justice. We don't know why yet, but we know that it was something big. Something that made over a thousand Knights renounce their oaths and disband their orders. I agree that Shardblades may be indestructible, but I would never say that Shardplate is easily damaged. One Shardbearer felt perfectly comfortable riding through Amarams army alone. I have no doubt he fully expected to ride back out unharmed as well. Dalinar and Adolan stood at the front line of combat in a hopeless situation and fought the Parshendi for an extended period of time against forces that hit almost as hard as someone with Shardplate enhanced strength and still lived to walk away. Shardplate is certainly more durable than steel. Kaladin made certain to aim his spear at a crack in the Parshendi Shardbearers armor, and even while he was surgebinding he had to hit it twice. Steel is very good armor, it was the best we were ever able to come up with. Shardplate is better, much better. No, it isn't indestructible, but it certainly isn't easily damaged.

Now, this makes a lot of sense to me. Sylphrena is an honorspren. She is the embodiment of oaths, promises, and nobility. She said so of her own accord at a point in the story where I consider her to be a reliable narrator. She binds things. The Shards represent the shattering of an oath. The fall of nobility. The breaking of promises. In other words, to her, the Shards may represent the opposite of everything she stands for. This would explain why she hates them. It could be even worse. We haven't seen the rise of a Knight Radiant in thousands of years. We don't know why, but if the spren actually became the Shards as postulated above, then they may have lost their connection to them, became paralyses so to speak, they would still be trapped within those Shards, but would be unable to influence the actions of their wielders. This would make Shards prisons for bondingspren, trapping them, and preventing them from seeking out new Knight Radiant candidates to replace those who betrayed their oaths. This may even be a tortuous existence for the spren when the Shards fall into the hands of the honorless. If this is the case, then there must have been a way to sever the bond and free the spren to choose a new candidate. If not, Sylphrena, and quite possibly the cryptics, would still be locked in Shards.

Maybe I can clarify my take on Honor. I'm of the opinion that honor is about mutual respect. Respect is the basis of honor. If someone isn't worthy of respect, they are unworthy of being honored. Kaladin respects and empathizes with his men, and they respect and revere him in return this forged a bond between them. Honor is about caring. Kaladin cares about the well being of those who are in his command, and as a result, those who know Kaladin care about him in return, this deepend that bond, allowing him to take the downtrodden scum of the army and make them into a loyal crack unit of spearmen. Honor is about selflessness and courage. To reach the second ideal, Kaladin had to face his demons and give them up. Dalinar has also done this, and while we don't know if he has attracted an honorspren, he is definitely under the influence of Tanavast. So from my limited understanding garnered from a single book in a ten book series, Honor is about bonds. Honor is about mutual respect, Honor is about caring, Honor is about selflessness and the courage to confront not only those who oppose you, but your own weaknesses as well. This is Honor as I know him. There is more to him than that. Nohadon could tell you all of the ideals that are valued by Honor, he wrote a book about them, It is called The Way of Kings.

I would speculate that Honor is about bonds. The bond of your word, the bonds between men, the bond of matrimony, etc. Honorspren bind things, and a large part of being honorable is being trustworthy. Lets take Szeth for example since he was already mentioned. For Szeth to attract honorspren, he would have to have people who were devoted to him, but he would have to be devoted to them in return. Honor is mutual understanding, trust, and faith in each other. For the honorable it is a two way street.

First let me say this is pure speculation. I have no sources to confirm this. I think nightspren are spren that have been corrupted by Odium. This is why we haven't seen any nightspren yet. I believe that as the Desolation becomes more of a reality, we will begin to see nightspren. I would place deathspren with cultivation. Cultivation is about the cycle of life, about encouraging life in some areas, and culling life in others. In layman's terms, weeding the garden is an example of cultivation. Deathspren would feel right at home in her portfolio. I believe that bonding spren are spren that have been invested by Honor and Cultivation. I also believe that spren are native to Roshar, if not entirely unique to Roshar. We see rainspren during weepings, and other spren types can be seen at odd times. I've got a tenuous theory about spren being strongest over bare stone, which would explain why they are virtually unheard of in Shinovar and would help explain their odd beliefs in regards to why it is sacred. This theory has a lot of holes in it. Cusicesh the Protector being one of the largest ones.

Yes, that would be honorable, but that isn't what Shallan was intent on doing. For her actions to be honorable, she would have had to warn Jasnah of her situation and her intentions to rob her beforehand. Deception isn't honorable. It is unlikely that the Parshendi are capable of forming Nahel bonds. They can bond with spren, but those bonds are different from those of surgebinders. I wouldn't say that what Jasnah is doing is evil so much as morally ambiguous. I will say that there are many shades of gray prior to reaching black. Just because someone isn't evil doesn't make them honorable. I some respects, I believe Jasnah to be highly honorable, in some respects I see Sadeas and Amaram as being highly honorable as well. To attract Honorspren, from what I inferred by reading TWoKs, how honorable you are perceived to be is almost as important as how honorable you are. The devotion of Kaladins men was just as important to Syl as Kaladins own feelings. No one who employs assassins will generate the level of devotion from those around them as Kaladin did. Jasnah and Shallan have attracted Cryptics, which are apparently a type of spren. I believe that bonding spren seek the exceptional. I believe they run a gamut from neutral to good, and that they seek those whose talents most closely relate to their spheres of influence. Jasnah is a renowned scholar. Shallan has gained renown in the short time she has been in Kharbranth as an artist. Elhokar is the ruler of a large kingdom. Knowledge, Creation, Rule. Ten orders existed, there is no reason that these three can not be amongst them.

I think it's safe to assume that the Parshendi bond with spren, and that they don't form Nahel bonds. So I'm going to completely agree with the idea that more than one type of bond can occur with a spren. I'm less certain about Jasnah and Shallan but I won't dispute the possibility. The fact that Parshendi also form bonds with spren that are almost certainly different from Nahel bonds gives us precedence towards your theory. I tend to agree with Isomere about the origins of Cryptics being of, or at least closer to Cultivation, than they are to Honor.

I would agree with this, though I doubt that this is a result of Honor splintering. I believe that Honorspren and Cultivationspren existed prior to the splintering. Tanavast had difficulty showing future events, and the events of the Recreance were clear. This leads me to believe that Tanavast was still alive at that time, so bondingspren would have existed prior to his death. I don't believe she is capable of lying. She finds bartering to be a shady practice. She doesn't even like when Kaladin lies to instill hope in a hopeless situation. She is capable of withholding the truth, but that is a different topic entirely. I won't discount this possibility. Her timing in choosing to resurrect the Radiants is a little to convenient for this to be pure happenstance. I couldn't agree more. I believe what we are seeing here is Sylphrena, a pure, or nearly pure, bonding Honorspren, contrasted to the Cryptics, which are pure, or nearly pure, bonding Cultivationspren. I think this was done to contrast how different bonding spren can be. I think the assumption that all ten spren types are of honor is unlikely. I would assume that one spren type is entirely of Honor, and one spren type is entirely of Cultivation. The other eight are derived from a combination of Honor and Cultivation. I don't think that Odium spren exist. Odium corrupts existing spren instead. To be honest, the only thing I wanted to do with this thread was clear up what Sylphrena is.

I may be completely wrong here, but the reason I believe this may be the case is because this is the very next scene we see Kaladin in after Dalinar trades the Blade for the bridgemen. I was actually looking for scenes with Syl so skipped the intervening chapters with Jasnah, Szeth, and Elohkar and went directly back to Kaladin. From what I understand, Brandon writes this way anyways. When you read those two sections back to back, the comment about the sword doesn't seem so out of place.

My take on this is that knowing the words is of limited value until you reach a point in the bond where they become a revelation. So someone could have told Kaladin the words of the second ideal even hours before he said them and they would have lacked the personal impact they had on him when he became one with those words. He adopted them as part of himself and because of this he strengthened the bond between himself and Sylphrena. The vocalization of the words is the last step in a process of self realization. Knowing the words may help you reach that point if you realize the value of the words towards progressing through the levels of power and intentionally strive to reach that ideal. If this is the case, which seems likely to me, then Jasnah may very well still be in the early stages of the bonding process. I don't know that she has made the connection between the ideals, soulcasting, and Radiants.

At the time Sylphrena made that quote, she and Kaladin were discussing Dalinars decision to give the Blade to Sadeas. We don't really know how Syl feels about Shardplate, because it wasn't part of the discussion. Everything was focused on the Blade because of the circumstances in which is was forfeited. Shardplate may not have been mentioned because doing so would have been out of context to the discussion.

Speaking of theories about the Parsh... What are the chances that humans were fighting the Parshendi at the time of the Recreance? I mean from Kaladins point of view, the Parshendi show a great deal of honor towards their enemies in warrior form, and they almost show reverence towards Kaladin when they recognize his abilities as a surgebinder.

In the above quotes, Sylphrena has been an unreliable narrator. She never lies, but she never contradicts Kaladin unless she knows he is wrong. Sylphrena hasn't once that I can find ever referred to herself as windspren. I've seen Sylphrena referred to as a windspren time and time again. We know better of course, we know she is honorspren, but still we assume she is or was windspren. I don't see any actual evidence to support this, and in fact see quite a bit of evidence that is contradictory. It is an assumption of Kaladins that Sylphrena accepts because at the time even she doesn't know any different. Windspren are common, seeing windspren is no momentous occasion. Windspren ride the storms, and are seen frequently enough riding breezes that they aren't generally worthy of comment. Honorspren are a rarer breed. Sylphrena doesn't lie. She said herself that she is not windspren.

Not my words, but I agree with the gist of it. Dialect is regional, Drug is actually the older more established form of the word dragged and it is also a stronger verb. It's the language native speakers actually use that counts, not the language some professor in an ivory tower thinks the native speakers should use. The word drug is used in this form throughout much of the southern and northwestern regions of the US. I learned it from my parents and grew up in NJ so it appears to be spreading. I said what I meant to say, and I won't be drug into an argument about it.

What if the Parsh just disappear when a Desolation begins? They take a form that is completely unrecognizable. Then in the years after the Desolation, as humanities population rebuilds, and they begin to spread across the world they encounter the Parsh. Depending on the length of the war, the breadth of the chaos, the loss of life, knowledge, and the amount of time it takes humanity to locate the Parsh they may have completely forgotten about them.