Gloom

This quote doesn't exactly encourage me to think it is a random result of bad thoughts or behavior. This quote leads me to believe that the Midnight Essence was released intentionally by an individual or group.

Oops, error on my part. The forty-one ideals followed by the ten orders of Radiants which were related to the ten Heralds.. Thank you WIndrunner, I've corrected the error.

I posted this somewhere, and it's gone, so just for the sake of clarity, I'll repost it here in regards to the First Ideal. As you can see, Kaladin wasn't holding Stormlight at the time he committed to the First Ideal, but the difference was notable the next time he did. As far as the strength of Kaladins investiture in comparison to Szeth, consider me convinced.

Okay, Roshar is different in some aspects in regards to Investiture from what I can tell. Now, If we follow this quote up with this quote.... We know that people and things get infused with Stormlight, but not everyone can be infused, in fact we know of barely a handful of people who can do this. These are the people I'm calling invested. or innately invested if you prefer. I believe that (but have no additional evidence to present because Brandon consistently RAFOs questions on investiture) investiture is earned through action that fall in line with one of the ideals. The ideals are tied to the ten Heralds, as is the magic system of Roshar, so it would make sense to me that investment is tied to the ideals as well. The more closely you are tied to the ideals, the greater chance you have of receiving an innate investiture. But, I believe that the initial investiture is a result of actions, not beliefs. This is why Kaladin could receive his initial investment without having any knowledge of the ideals. Same goes for any number of invested individuals. So I'm not using a Cosmere definition at all, but more of a Roshar centric definition, at least as I see it from the evidence I have been able to find. Edit: Corrected error pointed out in the following post.

I was looking for those who have been invested with power. I don't know what source says that everyone has a base investiture in Roshar. Never saw that. Heralds are kind of a no brainer, but they count, as do 17th Sharders on Roshar Purely supernaturals like the Night Watcher and the face, or fauna like great shells don't count even though they likely are invested. People who carry invested items can count, but their items don't. So just because Sadeas has Shards, doesn't mean he's invested, but just because Elhokar has them doesn't disqualify him. Hoid counts Humans invested by Odium, should there be any, count. Creatures invested by Odium don't Racial abilities don't count. If an Aimian gets invested beyond his racial abilities it would count. Same for the Parsh. I don't know who the Shinovar Lifebrother is. I could definitely see Adolin eventually getting an investiture. I think I'll have to see more of Scar, Moash, and Teft before I'm decided on them. I think at least one of them will die in WoR. Navani I could see, I could also see Renarin becoming a Radiant. I don't know that Szeth wasn't invested through Honor. I think a person becomes invested through an action that aligns with an ideal. My thoughts are that Szeth did something honorable in the past that granted him his investiture, but his use of it and failure to hold to the ideals keeps him from growing in power.

If Urithiru is the city on the Shattered Plains, I seriously doubt it arrived quietly. Something shattered the entire area. That wasn't the effect of the High Storms. They don't do that anywhere else. The Shattered Plains are in their current state because of some kind of energy release, either natural or supernatural. Urithiru falling from the sky, or being forced from Shadesmar to occupy the same space as something that was already there could explain this. Urithiru quietly appearing in a shimmer like a hidden city suddenly revealed does not. In an earlier post you pointed out that the Alethi were very literal minded. I have no doubt that a Storm Rider would be able to fully grasp the geography of Alethelar, and little doubt that they could do the same in Shadesmar. I don't think that westward was a translation error, because any solid construction in Shadesmar would either have to be west of Alethelar, or built in the seas of Shadesmar. I'm theorizing that IF Urithiru was in Shadesmar, it would have been the Northern continent because then it would have been built in the south eastern area of Shadesmar which is closest to Alethelar. To me it would make sense that in the event that Urithiru was moved from Shadesmar, by force or design, it would also appear in the south east of Roshar which is where the Shattered Plains are located.

Kaladin asked Syl here. The three quotes above are pretty clear on her feelings on the matter. She didn't tell him he was right, she said she understood. Now, to maintain some brevity, I'm going to take snippets from the following section from chapter 55 An Emerald Broam I believe this was the quote you were refering to. Kaladin didn't lie to his men. He wasn't being dishonest. Syl was helping him be cautious and trusting at the same time. Because it was Syls idea, Kaladin could remain true to his word.

I'm not sure I explained myself properly. It's difficult without being able to point at the maps. Basically land is sea, sea is land. Shadesmar is inverted from Roshar as far as land and water are concerned. The Oceans of Shadesmar correspond to the location of the land in Roshar. The far eastern shore of Shadesmar is north west of Alethela, and Urithiru would have been located in a sea in the northern sea of Roshar. To move Urithiru to Roshar, it would have had to be placed on land. If it was in south eastern Shadesmar, it could have appeared in south eastern Roshar. The energy transference from moving a city from Shadesmar to Roshar could have shattered the plains. This could have also been the calamity that struck Nantanatan. It would make sense that Urithiru would be in south eastern Shadesmar because Shadesmar is northwest of Alethela. It is also possible that there was indeed an altitude issue as well because the map of Shadesmar shows all land masses as mountainous. Travel to Shadesmar from Roshar was more than likely always done from the Roshar mainland and would have placed any travelers on the sea that Jasnah and Shallan ended up on. Now, if the Radiants moved Urithiru after the Recreance, then they most likely would have had to do the calculations themselves as Jasnah at least appeared to do for the boulder. This could have led to errors on the part of the soulcasters involved. Alternatively, Urithiru may have been expelled from Shadesmar because of the actions of the KR at the Recreance. I brought up calculations because Jasnah seemed to require them for the boulder, or at least knew that someone operating a soulcaster fabrial would require them. She didn't seem to require anything for the men she soulcast into various essences though so she may not actually need them, or a rough estimate was good enough.

Okay, lets see how much we can agree on. Known Investitures: These shouldn't cause any arguments. Kaladin Stormblessed Shallan Davar Jasnah Kholin Szeth-son-son-Vallano Suspected Investitures: Most of the arguments here will probably be that they should be in the category above. Elhokar Kholin Dalinar Kholin Possible Investitures: Yeah, that's right, I said it. Rock (Numuhukumakiaki'aialunamor) Okay, maybe not Rock, but then again.... Rock can see spren, he has strange scruples, and he fed Sadeas chull dung. Sounds like he qualifies to me Feel free to add more or blast me for those suggested. I'm sure I forgot someone.

You're in the middle of reading Words of Radiance? Wow! I'm jealous. Don't worry, I won't tell you anything that happens because I'm not going to be able to read it until it is released in March.

That doesn't change what Shardlet said. Places would still remain in the same relative position. If Urithiru was west of Alethikar, it would remain west of it. Traveling from place to place inside Shadesmar will likely require traveling the seas of the cognitive realm until such a time as Urithiru is found or rebuilt. If Urithiru was in Shadesmar, it would have been NW of Alethikar, but if you look at the map of Shadesmar, that could still translate to east of Alethikar in the physical realm. The landmasses of Shadesmar don't correspond with the land masses of Roshar. So I could still see the Shattered Plains being the resting place of Urithiru because they would have needed Urithiru to be on land in both realms. If Urithiru was far to the east on the continent in Shadesmar it may appear far east in the physical realm even though it was actually west of Alethikar historically when traveling from the physical to the cognitive.

I didn't say that Kaladin couldn't lie. Kaladin is a surgebinder, not Honor, a splinter of Honor, or a spren of Honor. He is a human being. As a human being he can lie. He convinced Syl that bartering isn't lying, not that some lies are okay, but that there were times when bluffing was okay. I still doubt Syl would be capable of it. It still doesn't mean that lying is acceptable, let alone honorable. Syl was quite clear on her views about deception. I will grant that since Shallan was lying to aid others that her actions weren't despicable, but they don't meet the criteria of being honorable by any stretch as far as I'm concerned. It wasn't Shallan lies that helped her regain Jasnahs trust, but her honesty. The strongest bonds are the bonds of trust, and trust is hard to regain once lost. Deception is the easiest way to break those bonds. If lying and deception are honorable, then Sadeas should be getting his honorspren any day now.

The magic system doesn't seem that flexible to me. I think it is more likely that more people will be motivated to meet the requirements to become a Radiant once those requirements become clear and following the codes is made mandatory. I'm fairly certain that Kaladin is going to start openly surgebinding, at least amongst his bridge crew, and training them in the codes once he is exposed to TWoKs. I foresee a conversation between Kaladin and Dalinar early on about the codes and Radiants in which Kaladin reveals his abilities to Dalinar. I would be surprised if Szeth is the first person who attempts to assassinate Dalinar as well.

Some observations about Kaladin and Szeth. Kaladin is stronger than Szeth NOW. Most of the book, I would have put Szeth as the stronger surgebinder, or at least as equally strong, and Kaladin as the better fighter. This changed when Kaladin accepted the first ideal just before getting hammered with a hundred arrows. This was the point at which Kaladin became stronger than Szeth, and capable of holding stormlight longer and better than Szeth. This was improved again a short time later when battle was joined and Kaladin accepted the second ideal. Some observations about the Recreance. As the KR removed their Plate, it stopped glowing, but so did their Blades. I think there is a link between a KR and their Shards. They can't function to full capacity unless the link exists. I don't know that any old surgebinder can wear a set of Plate without gems and infuse it, it may be true, but we lack sufficient data to prove this one way or the other because we never saw this happen in a vision yet.

Okay, were not really disagreeing, we just don't agree with each other fully. Let me see. I'm not saying that everyone who becomes invested will become a KR, only that at some point they did something that earned them that investiture that fell in line with the ideals. Most likely some sort of self sacrifice. Even Szeth may fall into this group. To become a KR you have to adopt the ideals and embrace them. This journey is the key to becoming a KR. If you fail to follow the ideals, but have received an investiture you stagnate at that level. I would even go so far as to say that once you begin to follow the ideals you can renounce your investiture. If Kaladin sent Syl away, it could have resulted in a rejection of the investiture and allowed Kaladin to become a real boy again. It was implied that this would be the case. But if you received an investiture, it may give you some benefits such as access to Shadesmar or basic lashings even if you fail to progress further on the road to full investiture by becoming a KR. The the difference I'm trying to clarify is that the path to becoming a KR is a conscious decision, while the act of becoming invested could be a result of actions taken for the right reasons. Those actions could be taken in complete ignorance of the ideals, but would fall in line with them at some level. Those who are invested have the potential to become KR, but they may lack the determination, conviction, or desire to do so. Kaladin wasn't a KR until the last battle of the book. He embraced the first and second ideal within minutes of each other. Until this point, he was only invested, not a KR. Shallan is only invested, spren or no spren. Unless she consciously decides to take the journey to becoming a KR she will stagnate, or perhaps because of her spren, be forced to renounce her investiture should she decide against it. This would of course, only apply to investitures from Honor and Cultivation.

I suppose this depends on what you consider an indication. I have seen evidence that people are invested prior to receiving a spren. I have seen evidence of at least one of those people attaining a spren after investment. I believe Kaladin was invested prior to crossing paths with Sylphrena, but I know Shallan had some type of investment prior to crossing paths with her cryptic. We know that Jasnah can travel to Shadesmar, we don't know she has a spren bond. We know Dalinar has some type of investment going on, we have no evidence to suggest he has a spren. We know that soulcasting is a form of surgebinding. In Roshar, investiture has to be earned. If investiture isn't earned by following the ideals then by what means is it earned? What evidence is there to support the supposition that the ideals are only important to those already invested? Or that once a person is invested that they must be bound to a spren and follow the ideals to retain their investiture?

As for the first, Id have to assume that according to the map of Shadesmar, if it dropped into Roshar in the same physical location it sat in Shadesmar, it would sink. So effort would have had to be taken to alter where the city would appear because if it was simply expelled from Shadesmar, it would have appeared in the Oceans of Roshar. As for the second part, maybe they were trying to do the calculations after they lost access to their spren and screwed it up. Perhaps it was in the mountains in Shadesmar, and they failed to account for altitude, or perhaps it didn't fall, but appeared in a location where other objects already existed leading to an energy release.

No, they would have to meet the criteria of a spren type to attain investiture. We have strong evidence that bonding spren are not spontaneously generated. This means that you have to cross paths with the right spren in order to form a bond. This doesn't mean that you aren't invested until you cross paths with it. We also know that those who are invested can refuse or break the bond. We don't know if this damages the investiture. So, what I'm saying is that the ideals are the keys to investiture, not spren. Spren enhance investiture when they bond with someone who has been properly invested in their sphere of influence. For example, Bob may risk his own life and rescue a stranger from certain death. By doing this Bob meets the criteria of investiture and become invested with the powers of a Sky Breaker. Bob may learn the basic surges of his order, and would almost certainly be as confused as Kaladin was, but unless Bob runs across a Sky Breaker spren, he'll be on his own. If Bob lives in a place where spren can't go, like Shinovar, he won't ever meet a spren, let alone the right spren. He is still invested, he can still train his surges, he just can't advance them until he has made a Nahel bond with the correct spren. It is entirely possible that ardents have crossed paths with bonding spren, and in compliance with their religious orders, have banished them like evil spirits by refusing the bond.

Honor can be defined a lot of ways by a lot of people, but in Roshar, it appears obvious to me that the type of honor that Honor acknowledges centers around honesty, trust, nobility, oaths, and bonds. There is very little room for lying in his interpretation, unless a lie is the only way to avoid deception.

I'm not going to argue that they are invested through anything other than actions, because as you said, we have WOB to rule that out. I will say that I doubt that spren take action without a catalyst. I believe that spren are attracted to an event and reinforce it. They don't cause it. This would include investiture. Bonding spren are very likely to be attracted to people who are invested through their actions, but not everyone who is invested is likely to attract a spren because to attract a spren you have to meet the criteria that those spren require. Kaladin may have become invested when he chose to protect Tien by trying to join in his place, and enlisting along side him when that failed. He almost certainly encountered Sylphrena later on the battlefield due to the devotion of his men.

You're welcome Okay, but does this necessarily mean that they will be invested with a spren? Does it mean that they can't surgebind until they have attracted a spren? Or that a spren is more likely to be attracted to them because they have been invested? The more I go through these boards, the more I begin to believe that investiture and spren don't always go hand in hand. We have Szeth who can definitely surgebind without a spren. We have Jasnah who may or may not have a cryptic. We have Elhokar whom most likely has a cryptic but can't surgebind (yet). We have Dalinar who we have no idea what is going on with, but can assume some type of investiture is involved. Then we have Kaladin who is both invested and has a spren, but who may have been invested before Sylphrena appeared, and Shallan who has a cryptic and can soulcast, but definitely was invested in some form before she attained her cryptic and access to Shadesmar (Her knack for drawing). So I think it may be possible to be a low level surgebinder without attracting a spren that would amplify your abilities. I think your theory hinges on this being true, because if the clergy surgebinders had to have cryptics to function in Shadesmar, then new KR would have risen at some point in the past, and Shallans cryptic wouldn't have been so....sleepy.

I'm skeptical. Whose cryptic did Shallan draw? Was it the kings cryptic? Was it her own cryptic revealing itself? If she will always paint a persons spren in their picture, then why didn't Taravangian free his own granddaughter instead of relying on Jasnah to do so? Does this mean that Jasnah doesn't have a cryptic because Shallan never drew one in her drawings? For what it's worth, the only one that was there that we can be sure has a cryptic is Shallan.

What was Shallans intent, and how did she feel about it? She intended to steal something from Jasnah because she felt that Jasnah was unworthy of the object. She felt terrible about it, and continued to feel worse about it the better she got to know Jasnah. Other more honorable avenues may have existed to extract her family from their predicament, but she convinced not only herself, but her brothers as well, that this was the best chance they had to protect their house. She KNEW that her actions were wrong. She could justify her actions sure, she hoped she could live with them, but they weren't honorable, they were expedient. Honor is tied to honesty. Kaladin desecrated the Parshendi dead, but he did so to preserve the lives of his men. He made no attempt to deceive the Parshendi about what he did, he threw himself in the vanguard of the bridgecrews, fully aware that they would take umbrage at his display and make him a target. If he had hidden the fact that he had used their corpses to armor his men, it would have been a deceit, and therefore dishonorable. Hiring an assassin may be politically necessary, it may save thousands of lives, but it could never be deemed an honorable action. The hiring of an assassin shields the identity of the person who hired the assassin. it is a deceit, and therefore not honorable. The honorable thing to do would be to face your enemy and die. Honor and expediency are often at odds. It worries me that this explanation is even necessary.

Granted, surgebinding and Nahel bonds may not be mutually exclusive. It is just as likely that surgebinding is augmented through a Nahel bond but that a person can surgebind independent of a Nahel bond. In fact, over time, I've been leaning more and more towards this idea. It would allow soulcasting without causing the KR to rise again. For this theory to work, however, we would need another catalyst for the appearance of surgebinders outside of a spren bond, such as a innate magical gift. The question then, would be do you have to have this gift in order to create a Nahel bond, or can a spren bond someone without this gift? If so, would that bond be weaker than a bond made with someone who had an innate gift? I still find it more than likely that grand soul-caster fabrials are a fiction created to cover for actual soulcasting. This would of course mean that a soulcaster with a Nahel bond would be both more a powerful soulcaster because they could use their spren as a medium through which they cast. The calculations required to achieve a certain result, such as turning a boulder into smoke, could be completed more quickly with the aid of logicspren than they could without unless the soulcaster was a math savant. The spren would probably be able to train the soulcaster to use the power of Shadesmar more efficiently than they would without the aid of a spren as well.

Evidence towards the OP theory. On the creation of fabrials (Ars Arcanum) I think the use of the word appear is significant and lends credence to the fact that not everything may be as clear as it appears to be. Since soul-casting fabrials are a type of fabrial not listed in the Ars Acanum the top 10% may be the exception to this rule, or they may all have been created by soulcasters (surgebinders) and be relics of the time of the Knights Radiant. Limited soul-caster fabrials most likely do not require a nohel bond to be functional (the trapped spren can bridge the gap), but those supposed soul-casting fabrials that can create anything would almost certainly require access to Shadesmar, and as a result require a nohel bond. I believe this because a soul-casting fabrial can't be adjusted to the degree necessary to dial it to the nearly unlimited variety of items that can be created with it without being able to communicate directly with the medium (spren) that would enable the change. I could see a soul-casting fabrial capable of creating the ten essences without access to Shadesmar or communication with spren, but not the ability to create virtually any substance with a device that has such limited input capability.