Asininity

@alder24 Ok, I've had to dig through Coppermind to get a better understanding and I'm not entirely convinced. While they they wont be able to process the pain, it's still there and that might be significant. I'm coming with assumption that Soul takes precedence over both Mind and Body (which is also on Braize and includes brain and all the chemistry). There are multiple ways to alter (damage or repair) Spiritweb - physical and emotional trauma, graft of investiture, hemalurgy, shardblade and altering perception of self. Heralds are shielded only from the emotional damage and can heal through changing Perception of who they are. But will not take effect until Mind and Soul are reconnected, right? Meaning they can prepare and practice dealing with pain, but will actually feel it only once they return. Spiritual Ideal will still be hurt and try to "overwrite" the Mind. So in essence they have peace between Returns but will get tortured during them? There remains the question of what kind of torture Soul can be subjected to and I would not diminish Taravangian creativity in this aspect.

Thanks, I hate it I'd still put it into loophole category, Tanavast should be lawyer, not a tanner

That's still breaking the Pact. He could gaslight Honor into believing previous agreement with Kor takes precedence but it still breaks word given to other Vessels. How could he argue that was upholding it?

The context always mattered. Not to the Stormfather who was happy to accept every oath but to character that sworn it. Spren has no mental capacity to discern good vs bad, they draw on perception of their Knights. I get what you are saying and I would give it benefit of doubt, if not for the book itself doing the opposite. Both 5th Ideals are perfect examples: - Szeth swears an Oath then immediately renounces it. Why do so in the first place? - Kaladin just says it. There is nothing meaningful about it, but comes with solution the problem at hand. Why wouldn't you swear? On top of that consequences are also diminished, in the past breaking the oath meant lobotomy for the spren. Now Deadeyes are healed and Sigzil spren is slightly annoyed by it.

@Leuthie Braize characteristic is drawing Souls and that's the part of Heralds that is being transported to be tortured. Only the Cognitive part of the Herald will be locked inside vision. That leaves Soul exposed to the torture as well but with time distortion they will have time to cope. I'm totally guessing here, since mechanics of magical mental illness are not really clear to me. The thing i mentioned about anesthesia is you need multiple vectors of action to make it effective. There's ton of research on the subject and I'm no doctor but remember reading about how only forgetting the pain (yes - some anesthetics did work like that) was not enough and patients were negatively impacted, resulting in either death or long term consequences due to stress.

It's interesting idea but I think this is unlikely. Cultivation represents change and growth, concepts that are fundamentally at odds with nature of Preservation. In many ways Cultivation is just as big of anathema to preservation as Ruin is. While the Vessels might cooperate, their Intents would make this alliance inherently volatile. Balancing Preservation and Ruin was already a monumental task fo Sazed, adding Cultivation into the mix would magnify the conflict. That is of course assuming she's opposed to the conflict. If she planned Retribution, her going to Sazed and turning him into Discord would align perfectly with planting another seed for chaos and war.

We got like 15 "main" characters and more side PoVs than I care to count, destructuring all of them would be a massive task. This unfortunately makes the book less enjoyable for me. Pacing suffers because of this, with constant cliffhangers, shifting perspectives and overall lack of focus, it's hard to get invested into each subplot. The momentum just does not build up like it should. I dont want this to be purely negative rant tough. Taravangian ascended to new heights of hypocrisy, pettiness and cruelty - and I loved it. Coming to terms with his newfound godhood was an interesting development, even if it made him somewhat one-dimensional. But most importantly his portrayal of Odium works. Rayse was promised to be an apocalyptic mass of hatred, vast, all-consuming and he turned out to be an old, tired dude, who hated his job. With Taravangian we got surprisingly humane asshole, that goes out of his ways to make small acts of hatred fell personal. The kind of Odium I can love to hate. Siege of Azir was a nice throwback to what made The Way of Kings so epic. No immortal gods, bending the fabric or reality, just vulnerable people rising to occasion and doing heroic stuff. The magic, still there but receded into background making room for more grounded "conventional" warfare. For me, this shift was the highlight of entire book. Despite some repetitions and confusing monologues I liked Adolin scenes. Walking around camp, talking to people and being inspiring, woven with brutal combat, while exhaustion and hopelessness slowly builds up was awesome. And of course there was Taln last stand. Even though we only got glimpse of it, the moment hit with all the weight of Stonesinew myth and completely stole the show. I wish Brandon would lean harder into this "no show, no tell, let people wonder" type of exposition more. Unfortunately, then came cartoonish and silly Stealing Azir's Throne and invalidated whole thing. Pity. (Philosophical) Battle of Thaylena was not for me. Im not a fan of debate-bro-culture and it initially made me cringe. However after thinking about of more, I've realised it was completely unnecessary. Odium could have taken Thaylena without any of this buffoonery. He wanted a debate, not because it mattered but because he wanted to humiliate and hurt Jasnah. And I can buy into that. The problem, however is in the execution. Jasnah is established as someone who lacks emotional intelligence, cold, calulating but extremely logical and competent (drawing interesting parallel to Odium being deity of excessive emotion). Yet none of that came into play, and it's frustrating because fixing it would be very simple. Jasnah should be able to understand how impossible it would be to win an argument with near-omniscient being. Her engagement with Odium needed stronger, pragmatic reason - like realising the coup was staged. That's the most logical thing since there's no invasion force. She needs to deduce on her own that stalling Odium and luring him to torment her is the only way she can save the day. Its still a debate but at least wouldn't feel like betrayal of Jasnah's character. Preferably I would rather get an actual coup plot, where Jasnah goes on a witch hunt and is determined to murder all potential agents, making Fen snap and join Odium. Emotion still triumphs over reason and leaves Jasnah is broken. After events of RoW, Kaladin felt more of less a complete character. He often overshadowed the rest and started being overwhelming to me. So in WaT, instead of one we got three: Sigzil (discount) Captain Windrunner. Since the real one cut off all his connections, someone had to pick up the slack. He goes through the same dilemmas, interacts with the same people, faces the same challenges, gets the same nemesis. Whats is missing is the emotional investment. I don't really know who is this dude, other than regular windrunnery stuff. Why settle for a cheap knockoff, when the perfect foil stands right there? We could revisit Shattered Plains inside Moash's head. Retreading the same steps that forged Kaladin into a hero but from perspective of a villain, hellbent on undoing everything he fought for. Feels like a missed opportunity to build compelling villain, while still allowing Sigzil to shine. Hell, double down on redundancy and have twisted version of the duel in the highstorm or the Battle of Tower. Then we get Adolin Stormblessed. While I enjoyed the Siege, it's not lost on me how repetitive it is. Its the same blend of prowess, bravery and leadership, all wrapped in depression and a bit of recklessness we've seen in Kaladin. That said, these qualities were part of what made some of the best sequences in the series, so I’m not really complaining here. I can't say the same for the Herald of Therapy though. We all knew where this was heading, but felt like completely different character. In the span of a week, he went from catatonic depression to dancing and playing music in the wind. It diminished the weight of his previous struggles and theres nothing left for him to overcome. The whole therapy angle fell flat for me. He's the single most powerful warrior on humanity's side, and decision to put down the spear felt more like rejection of duty rather than cathartic resolution. Adding to this, was the jarring injection of 2024 vocabulary, weird meta-quips from Ishar, and Kaladin explicitly stating how easy everything came to him - as if the author was breaking the fourth wall to apologise for running out of ideas. The journey through the Spiritual Realm felt less like a meaningful exploration of the series’ deeper cosmology and more like a plot device designed to occupy certain characters while ensuring Roshar’s defense wasn’t trivialized. The entire quest seemed structured to keep pivotal figures out of the main conflict, with Ba-Ado-Mishram serving as little more than a macguffin. I expected more. Suprisingly, Shallan's side quest was more tolerable than expected. With cringle-inducing humor and romance toned down, her chapters were decent, even if she didn't contribute significantly to the larger narrative. On the other hand, Navani, Ren and Rlain did not resonate with me at all, maybe its just not my kind of jam. Dalinar's arc during this journey was just underwhelming. He didn't uncover any profound knowledge that would justify such a big shift in his character. All he did was watch Tanavast being a bastard and understand - once again - that not-so-gods were not perfect. Not exactly earth shattering. His betrayal of Honor felt personal - and I suspect that was entirely Brandon's intention. Perhaps this was more than betrayal of Ideals Dalinar fought for throughout the series, but a betrayal that was meant to resonate on an emotional level with the reader. I still can't believe that Dalinar Kholin, of all people, would do something like this. But isn't that exactly how every betrayal ever felt? The disbelief, sense of loss and confusion that comes from getting hit from a blindside - those hit oddly close to real life and Sanderson conveyed this feeling masterfully. So I'm both impressed and salty about it. The thing that upsets me the most is that, the weight and gravitas behind the cornerstone of the series - Oaths - were taken away. Up until this point, the act of swearing an Oath was portrayed as deeply self-sacrificing gesture. Something that required immense personal growth, pain and struggle. Oaths weren't supposed to be convenient or beneficial to the character; they symbolised a commitment to ideals even at a personal cost. Here, Oaths are being broken left and right, dismissed as "stupid", or made in circumstances where they conveniently benefit the character. While I can appreciate the parallel being drawn - breaking an Oath as righteous and sacrificial - it still feels like it has stripped the entire system of its emotional weight. And I did not like that one bit. Overall ther has been a massive rust in tonality and overarching theme of the Stormlight Archive. Perhaps this was the author's intention, to highlight that Honor - the force that bound everything together is truly dead. Adding another layer to signify that Odium now reigns supreme. Telling us to expect more passion, impulsiveness and subjective morality than somewhat rigid structure Honor built. Not sure how I feel about that yet, guess I'll have to RAFO

Maybe I missed something but Heralds are still tortured? They exist on 3 planes simultaneously and new improved version of the Oathpact shields their minds from mental anguish. They still feel physical/spiritual pain? I can't wrap my head around the mechanics. If Brandon goes with real world anesthetics theory, this could go horribly for them. They have some time to recover from millennia of trauma but it not permament? And Fused still have a valid reason to force them to break the pact - Retribution wants Honor splinters (both Heralds and Spren) back

I honestly don't care for nitpicking interpretations of specific passages or definitions of particular words. It's the very reason why so many readers found WaT distasteful which is the point of this thread. It doesn’t matter if religion isn’t explicitly mentioned in that particular scene - the worship of the Heralds is fundamental to Szeth’s character. For him, Nale’s will represents both secular and divine authority. If Szeth’s beliefs were truly unshaken, why would he settle for a seemingly subpar Ideal? His choice to deviate from the established Skybreaker structure (at least as far as we know, barring the discovery of other dissenters) is a clear manifestation of moral agency. I think you’re conflating justice with law. Szeth’s vows were never centered on the law itself—much to Nale’s disappointment. He swore to follow will of a man, as he has seen Dalinar as a better exemplar of Justice, than letter of the law or even the Herald supposed to embody it. As for his Crusade, it was not meant to be retribution for naming him Truthless. What happened to him was unjust but lawful but the point was cleansing corrupted institution that failed to uphold Justice. In essence, Nale believed that the law was the closest approximation of Justice, while Szeth rejected this doctrine outright. For a larger part of WaT Nale is still dedicated to letter of the law and yanks Szeth around like poor puppy. Regarding Szeth: Raising sword against son(s) of god with intent of preventing him from killing someone, is an act of defiance by any definition. Nature of Oaths: Wasn't it established early by Kaladin, that one can swear stupid Oath in bad faith and still get Radiant powers? Since the thing that actually matters is perception of the knight? I remember reading about humans being untrustworthy since Honor is no longer around. Am I mixing up the books or something? Adolin: There are no consequences for him. It's the crux of the issue. He's supposed to be mere human, but consistently pulls of superhuman stunts. Five minutes after losing a leg, he duels a Fused with millennia of experience, wielding a full set of Shards, all while armed with... a candelabrum. The fact that he almost loses multiple times only makes it worse. He’s repeatedly saved by miracles, like its his bread and butter. Even his unique connection to the dead Shards, something he spent his entire life developing, is suddenly available to ten random people. This completely undermines the effort he put into earning that connection. I don’t think anyone disputes that Adolin is brave, or that his heart is in the right place, but he wears massive plot armor, despite not being part of the plot and constantly breaks rules that are supposed to apply to everyone else. Dalinar: Sorry, but what you are saying makes no absolutely no sense to me. He was manipulated when he burned a city full of children. Should he also reject that little responsibility because of some disparity in power? Dalinar’s entire story has been about internalizing responsibility, yet it seems to regress completely. His rejection of his people to amend the mistakes of Tanavast feels disjointed. Instead of focusing on guiding Roshar, he shifts his attention to the Cosmere, seemingly abandoning his role. He rambles about “doing better,” but his actions contradict this, as he ends up doing the same thing, only on a larger scale. Furthermore, the cycle of conflict was already broken. Both Fused and Radiants had means to permanently kill each other, and the Everstorm would not cease churning until one side emerged victorious. This was the final desolation. Dalinar’s betrayal of Honor and his decision to break his Oaths robbed the Radiants and humanity of their agency in opposing Odium. For someone supposed to be a Guide instead of a Leader I fail to see how that was his decision to make. In the end, the narrative resorts to heavy-handed exposition to convince us this was some kind of galaxy-brain move. It’s all “tell, don’t show,” and it falls flat.

In Oathbringer he rejected Nale's doctrine. In Shin religion he's literal god and Skybreakers seen him as embodiment of Law. Choosing to follow "the will of Dalinar Kholin" over divine authority and mortal law is massive shift in world view if not complete breakdown of his belief system. The whole Crusade is a consequence of rebeling against the laws that made him obey the Oathstone holder. Relying on Dalinar moral compass is no longer blind obedience, he just never does anything to break the trust given to him. Then in Rhythm of War he saves Dalinar from both Nale and Ishar, openly defying the Heralds. Somehow he forgets he can do that in WaT The problem here is Dalinar rejected responsibility for his failings. He allowed to be manipulated by Odium, Honor, Cultivation, Hoid and Nohadon for all we know. Now broken Heralds, crippled Radiants and remnants of Coalition will have to suffer because of his betrayal of Honor. Setting entire universe on fire and forcing Shards to do what he believes is right, isn't exactly improvement of his authoritarian ways. He just went from bullying high princes to bullying gods, which I admit is pretty damn cool. Which was pretty much retconned by revelation that Honor does not care. Regarding Adolin: The biggest issue I have with him is that he’s exempt from the consequences and limitations that other characters have to fight for. Murdering an important political figure? Pfft, who cares—it felt good. Rejecting oaths? His spren loves him anyway. Losing a leg? He’s still the best duelist on the planet. There’s no significant progress on his part. His strengths remain, and his weaknesses are undefined. He’s supposedly dealing with feelings of inadequacy in the Radiant era, but somehow, he still comes out on top every time. Soloing a Thunderclast? Sure, why not—never mind that those things have killed Heralds before, right? There are some great themes in his story: a demigod being thrown back into the world of mortals, except he never truly confronts the fragility of life. A master swordsman getting crippled and losing his only purpose in life, but that conflict is resolved in just one chapter. I can buy into Adolin forging a connection with his gear - after all, he has dedicated nearly half his life to it. But summoning ten full sets out of nowhere? Granting Shards to his "squires"? What is he now, a Bondsmith? A Windrunner? He taps into multiple powers while ignoring the limitations that the entire series revolves around. It not only feels wrong - abrupt, unearned, and cheap - but it also diminishes his own achievements. Unless it’s revealed to involve another Shard, I’ll continue to be upset about it. Sanderson admitted that Adolin wasn’t originally part of the main cast, but writing him was so fun that he decided to keep him. That’s not even plot armor—he wasn’t included in the plot to begin with, he simply gets preferential treatment and its jarring.

For me Oathbringer is where the series peeked. But you are right it's were the series took a bad turn. In the early books, the tight focus on Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar allowed readers to deeply connect with their struggles, arcs, and growth. Throwing in occasional perspective shift to side character was fun. When you have 15 "main" characters it’s harder to build the same emotional attachment. Instead of savoring meaningful growth, readers are left juggling too many storylines, some of which may feel undercooked or unearned. With so many characters and storylines, the pacing inevitably suffers. Time spent introducing new characters or giving each their moment in the spotlight slows down the main plot and introduce unneeded cliffhangers. To make it worse, those subplots often have recycled themes, undermining uniqueness of previous arcs and cause fatigue. The stakes became unclear and there's ad-nauseam repetition. Threats felt more tangible, survive the chasms, avoid getting swept by politics, uncover some mystery, all with apocalypse looming overhead. Then apocalypse happened and it turned out ain't that bad. Voidbringers turned out to be people, Desolation a nasty weather and Odium, would rather talk than destroy the world. The urgency is gone, replaced with some abstract conflicts. Ever escalating power creep eroded stakes and suspense. As characters became more powerful, the challenges lost their tension. Heroes are invincible and ironically it makes them less heroic, as heroism is rooted in vulnerability. When bunch of fledgling Radiants can repel invasion of world ending army how can you convince me that the struggle is real?. Intricate worldbuilding with its history, cultures, politics and awe-inspiring elements get overshadowed by next "epic climax" that feels forced. Somehow uniting the world feels less monumental than bunch of squabbling princes. Overexposure killed the wonder and magic. Many characters were built on aura of mystery. Stormfather with his cryptic and profound wisdom turned out to be grouchy old man with no real answears. Odium who terrified whole Cosmere became comical villain and ancient and clever Hoid bumbling idiot. Taking a peek behind the curtain revealed that the wizard is just a man frantically pulling levers.

-Mom, can we have a Windrunner? -No, there is a Windrunner at home:

Without sugarcoating it, I disliked the book. Honestly, it felt like everything that made me resonate with Stormlight got shredded. We went from an epic fantasy steeped in heroism and chivalry to a bizarre debate club arguing about the fine print of contracts and nitpicking the definitions of words instead of focusing on their meaning. Thrilling. I don't want to get into lesser sins of Winds and Truth, since there's already plenty of that. Let’s focus on Szeth, since this is his book, right? Wrong. His entire arc was hijacked by Kaladin. I already had Stormblessed fatigue after Rhythm of War, and somehow, Wind and Truth made it so much worse. Each time Szeth had an opportunity to grow, Kaladin swooped in and saved the day. I've hoped for inspiring story about moral agency, atonement, purpose, humility and justice, and what we've got? None of that. Despite seeing faults in Heralds and his own blind obedience, Szeth still cant stand up to authorities. Nale and Ishar just jerk him around and Kaladin has to fight for him. Might aswell play a flute while dueling a Herald. This scene would be so much better if Szeth would actually confront Nale, while Wandersail played in the background. What could've been. And then we get to the Fifth Ideal. Szeth becomes the first Radiant in thousands of years to swear it. Monumental achievement, except it's hollow, absolutely meaningless. Kaladin does it better, easily. Apparently Nale imposed his own structure on the Skybreakers post-Recreance because he thought the old oaths were lost. So sure, skipping the whole crusade bit makes sense narratively, but wouldn’t Szeth finding his own way have been the perfect culmination of his journey? Instead, he skips straight to the destination and its so anticlimactic, he has to start over. What about atonement for his crimes? Surely there's a point to all the suffering Ishar subjected him to? Decades of conditioning to withstand torture that Heralds go through? Nope, he folds instantly when Ishar trauma-dumps the gang. Everyone does. Except for Kaladin of course. The perfect penance - becoming a Herald and serving the greater good - is sitting right there, and yet none of that matters. He gets a closure by killing his family... the only people he still loved and they loved him back. At least Kaladin, doesn't have to fight this battle for him. Oh wait, he kinda does. There's no justice, no redemption, only sadness and helplessness. I knew Justice was never Brandon's favorite Ideal, but man he did Skybreakers dirty

Same as OP, I found Winds and Truth to be a significant departure from the tone and themes of earlier books, especially Oathbringer.

Sazed took up two opposing forces. He could either make them function through Discord - letting them struggle against each other and acting based on whichever force prevails at any given time - or through Harmony, maintaining a constant state of equilibrium where they balance each other out, though this severely limits his ability to act decisively. Taravangian, on the other hand, claimed Shards that can work together. Honor would never tolerate the breaking of a given word, while Odium despises inaction. Reconciling these two is far easier than balancing Preservation’s inability to destroy with Ruin’s inability to save. It may also help that Odium is currently the dominant force, since splinters of Honor (Heralds and spren) remain unclaimed. Shard names are not perfect reflections of their true Intent. These Intents are vast and infinite, shaped by the Vessel that holds them.

Odium plan was to turn Dalinar into an Unmade so anything is possible

Oh, I do get that. Its similar to Odium being described as "divine hatred separated from the virtues that gave it context" but at the same time, he's much more than just that. Rayse could have become something greater, but Odium emerged due to how he and the Shard aligned together. Sazed becoming Discord is a possibility because the vessel shapes and gives the Shard its context. I just reject the notion that Honor is solely about upholding the letter of contracts. It should encompass everything that honor is meant to represent. Like what happened to the Ideals? Bravery, Obedience, Leadership, Confidence - they aren't inherently "good", but power behind Honor resonates with them. This remains true even though Tanavast has been dead for a long time and wasn't exactly an exemplar of those in the first place.

I guess most people were put off by the general premise. There was absolutely no point in it, other than some contrived plot device. The logical course of action for Jasnah would have been to simply refuse, which would have been a win by default. Instead, she inexplicably decided to give a near-omniscient entity a chance to convince Fen. Stupid. While Odium could have simply taken over the city without any of this pageantry, he instead chose to offer what he called "the best deal anyone will ever get from him". Also stupid but I can accept that making a point was more important to him. Many people, myself included, find "debate-bro culture" quite distasteful. Hardly ever it amounts to anything, other than stroking participants' egos, and "confrontation" between Jasnah and Taravangian was perfect example of it.

Retcon 100% It feels like Honor was reduced to a slimy lawyer, focused on interpretation of words instead meaning behind them. I found no honor in it.