Asininity

I think the man himself wrapped "grimdarkness" pretty well: full lecture

There's definitely something fishy going on with Elsegates and the surge of Transportation. It seems this surge has been intentionally limited far more than any of the others, which raises question about reasons behind those limitations. Even Elsecallers, who specialize in the surge of Transportation, cannot fully utilize it. The spren of the Oathgates were explicitly forbidden from granting passage to humans. The only modern-era instance of using Transportation involved an Honorblade, which operates outside the normal constraints imposed on Radiants, spren, or Fused. However, even that usage was limited to movement between the Cognitive and Physical Realms. This limitation stands in stark contrast to historical feats, such as Ishar’s ability to hold open a massive Elsegate between two planets during the arrival of the Voidbringers. That portal was large enough to transport an entire nation and existed fully in the Physical Realm—a feat that seems far beyond anything modern Radiants can achieve. The notion of Physical-to-Physical transportation is important because portals break the fundamental laws of physics, allowing manipulation of energy, matter and natural forces that should not be possible. It opens infinite possibilities to cause destruction on unprecedented scale. Infinite loops of energy, violation of conservation laws, FTL travel, gravity manipulation, crazy pressure and thermal differentials. Opening a portal to the bottom of the ocean seems mundane in comparison. Now consider the possibility that the Black Fisher, has access to an unbound surge of Transportation. A sentient, ancient being, driven mad with hatred has access to the same power that torn Ashyn apart. That should make anyone wary of employing her. Evidence points to Dai-Gonarthis being involved in catastrophic event on Roshar - the Scouring of Aimia. Another unsolved mystery that seems to fit very well is the Origin of Highstorms: To me, it sounds like there might be a permanent wormhole connecting Aimia and the Origin. The amount of water alone would easily explain unnatural weather conditions and lead to environmental collapse. Causing such catastrophe could also explain why Odium would want to avoid it. Maybe that's how the Unmade got his moniker? Black Fisher - the Great Abyss - moving stormload of water, dunno but found this parallel entertaining.

I was wondering the same thing, there's definitely a nice setup for chaos and massive shift in power dynamic. The Shards are already on the move, likely pursuing two main objectives. Their primary goal seems to be locating Taravangian and forcing him into a direct confrontation where he’s outnumbered. I suspect they wouldn’t hesitate to destroy the entire Rosharan system if that’s what it took to eliminate Retribution. However, whatever protections are in place around Roshar still appear to hold, forcing them to act indirectly through proxies. Their secondary goal would likely be to pacify Roshar and its surgebinders. Weakening Taravangian’s foothold by destabilizing his loyal factions or neutralizing the threat of surgebinding would significantly undermine his influence. Infiltrating Roshar, taking control of its politics, and luring Retribution out of hiding seems like the most probable strategy to achieve this. I believe that Taravangian hasn’t left Roshar entirely. More likely, he’s hiding within the Spiritual Realm. Roshar is critical to his plans, and abandoning it would be an enormous risk, especially considering how heavily invested he is in the system. However, his ability to exert influence is now limited. He’ll be forced to act subtly to avoid detection, as any overt moves could draw the attention of other Shards. Taravangian’s absence from direct control has left his newfound empire with an empty throne, creating a massive power vacuum, especially with the Fused, Radiants, and Heralds largely out of the picture. In this void, new factions are bound to emerge, each vying for dominance over Roshar. El will likely take control over Odium loyalists. His vision aligns closely with Taravangian’s methods, emphasizing order and calculated ruthlessness. He may aim to bring both singers and humans under his leadership, forming a cohesive, authoritarian, force. On the other hand, Ba-Ado-Mishram could become a rallying point for dissenters. With Retribution unable to fully manifest his Intent, power may gravitate back toward her. Unlike Rayse, Taravangian never presented himself as one of the singers, which could alienate many Parshendi. Ba-Ado-Mishram, with her historical connection to their people, may once again rise as a symbol of resistance and leadership. Meanwhile, the Blackthorn has his own mission - gathering his Nine Shadows. This task will inevitably place him in direct conflict with Ba-Ado-Mishram, as her influence threatens his ability to consolidate power. Dalinar remains a potent symbol, and many humans—and perhaps even some singers—will rally behind him. This time, his vision of unity might come not through diplomacy, but conquest.

It could be original color of his Shardplate - Stoneward/Dustbringer? I have a pet theory that Autonomy is preventing Shards from naturally reforming, by making splinters autonomous. Say one thing for Adolin Kholin, say he's on Autonomy's radar. Autonomy investing splinters and letting them act outside of rules established by Honor/Cultivaton/Odium could give off the red hue. So if I had to bet on another Shard being involved it would be her

The whole point of Sunmaker Gambit was forcing other players to escalate, so obviously Retribution has no say in starting anything. The war has already begun. Shards outnumber him and would happily destroy him, along with the whole system in open clash. But since they cannot force a direct confrontation with him in hiding, the second best option is to go after his power base - Roshar itself. I disagree with every other point you made, but we’ve strayed far enough from the original point of this thread.

Indeed, Taravangian finds himself backed into a corner, leaving him with little choice but to resort to desperate measures. It’s a plausible scenario, and one that fits his personality and narrative. The war continues regardless, but it’s no longer a conflict between Honor and Odium. Instead, it’s Retribution versus the rest of the Cosmere. In other words, the conflict has escalated from a planetary scale to a universal one. However, the people of Roshar no longer have a say in which deity they wish to fight for - their agency has been completely stripped away. To me personally, this is the worst outcome. @Darvys Exactly, we've been told it's bad but never shown that Final Desolation is actually a big issue. The way I see it, Taravangian got himself in very unfavorable situation when Dalinar ascends. Dalinar is now effectively the second coming of the Almighty - symbol uniting humanity, spren and some of parshendi. He controls the Highstorm, possesses a level of foresight comparable to Odium’s. The Skybreakers return to his side, the Heralds are improving, the Radiants demolish Fused in combat, and the Unoathed exist. Azir stays with the coalition, the Shattered Plains lean in their favor. Tukar, Marat, and Shinovar are likely to join now that the “real god” has returned. Optionally winning the contest, gives Alethkar and Herdaz back. Taravangian faces rebellion on every front. Each sentient Unmade we’ve seen so far has displayed a willingness to betray him. The Singers already have. Ba-Ado-Mishram will rival him for power and drive a schism among the Fused. Meanwhile, human nations are almost guaranteed to convert to Dalinarism, as it’s clearly a better option than following the embodiment of hatred controlled by a backstabbing megalomaniac. What did he gain? Thaylenah. Maybe proved his philosophy. A ceasefire gives both sides the time to plan, recuperate, and prepare for the final clash. But who’s more likely to emerge victorious? On one side, you have Honor - now controlled by the most accomplished general of the current era, supported by the Radiants and the most militaristic nations of Roshar. On the other, you have Odium - a pseudo-philosopher with no experience in warfare, backed by merchant nations and a host of insane spirits. Also can someone explain, how freezing Gavinor didn’t end the contest outright? Being unable - or unwilling - to continue should result in an automatic forfeit. Where are the Cosmere lawyers when you need them?

I believe Taravangian’s main reasoning was the realization that Dalinar-as-Honor would utterly crush him in a direct clash, forcing him to seek more power. I can also accept that his megalomania and his obsessive desire to be the one to save Kharbranth, Roshar, and ultimately the Cosmere, played a significant role. Both are valid motivations and fit his character, but they don’t exempt him from making an utterly foolish decision. "These words are not accepted." - The Stormfather respects all oaths, but only when the person swearing them truly means and believes in them. Perception and Intent have always been the cornerstone of magic in the Cosmere—a concept hammered into us in every book. And let’s cut the Stormfather some slack here: breaking one’s word in this context meant the lobotomy of his child so of course words were important to him That said, my issue lies with how the neo-Skybreakers were established under Nale. Their rules of progression are vastly different from those of other orders and were likely shaped by Nale’s own insanity. This theory is further supported by the existence of dissenter Skybreakers who discovered the “old words” - something Nale believed to be impossible. Regardless, this theme was explored far more effectively in Oathbringer. Both Kaladin and Szeth, Venli, wrestled with this exact dilemma, and it was conveyed it in a much more natural and cohesive way. Recycling it now, as the resolution to a conflict that has been building for 15 years, feels kinda cheap. Personally, I lean toward the idea that Sanderson intended this betrayal to feel personal—that we, as readers, were meant to experience the sting of betrayal ourselves. Might be just cope though. Yet somehow, Dalinar's decision guarantees even worse outcome for Roshar, in exchange for a hope that it might benefit the Cosmere in the long run. I struggle to see how this situation actually favors Taravangian. The moment Dalinar ascends, balance of power on Roshar changes dramatically and I cannot see Odium winning this. Even if we take at face value the claim that this war is as dire as it seems, can you honestly say you’d prefer being enslaved by Retribution over having the freedom to choose between Honor and Odium?

This whole thread is just bizarre to me. I thought forums like this were primarily for crackpot theory-crafting and painstaking analysis of the tiniest details that most readers miss. I did not expect people to be so deeply invested in questions like, “would you storm a crab-person?” or “what sexually transmitted diseases might be involved?” What the hell? xD

@agrabes Trying to convey a message is one thing; doing it well is another. In my opinion, Sanderson failed at the latter. Dalinar’s betrayal was a gamble - one that hinged entirely on Taravangian being an idiot. He essentially wagered the entire universe just to prove a point. If TOdium had even a single functioning brain cell, he would’ve grasped why Rayse never took the Shards, won the contest, and then easily conquered the Cosmere within a couple of centuries. On top of that, the current resolution is downright terrible. Instead of being forced to choose sides in a war between two Shards, the people of Roshar are now enslaved by Retribution and dragged into a war involving all sixteen. But hey, Dalinar won the debate, right? It’s no secret that Hoid often serves as a mouthpiece for the author to explain things he couldn’t properly show on the page. In this case, we got heavy-handed exposition about how brilliant this gambit supposedly was - because even Brandon must’ve realized how badly it looked. The motivations of other characters struck me as equally naive, but they pale in comparison to Adolin and his promises. Whether you call it an oath or a promise, it’s the intention behind the words that truly matters. The meaning is shaped not by the act of saying them, but by the conviction and purpose driving them. Conversely, breaking such vows can sometimes be the righteous choice, and I doubt many would argue otherwise when morality and circumstance demand it. Ironically, finding the most important words was never about speaking them aloud. It was about understanding what they represent, the weight they carry, and the willingness to stand by - or abandon - them when faced with reality. Somehow this theme was lost and everyone suddenly became fixated on definitions and semantics, as if the precise phrasing is what hold the true value. It feels disingenuous, a shallow distraction from more meaningful dilemmas that we got used to in previous books.

Investiture on Roshar manifests as Lights, each associated with a specific Shard and uniquely defined by its Tone. These tones are composed of Frequency, Rhythm and Intent. Navani's research, has revealed that Lights can be manipulated and transformed through use of fabrials, gems and sound frequencies. In Rhythm of War there was an experiment with transferring light between gemstones using tuning forks. I'd imagine the most straightforward way to distill Stormlight, would be to take a Sphere infused with Hybrid Light and apply Honor's frequency until Odium/Cultivation part evaporates. Producing Stormlight from raw Investiture would require tuning it to Honor's Frequency, Rhythm and Intent. It should be also possible to transform non-Rosharan Lights by first stripping thjem off their native Intent and Rhythm

I guess the reverberating message is something along the lines of the greatest act of strength often lies in surrender. Knowing when to let go of power fosters growth, freedom and paves the way for a brighter future. The Contest of Champions is pretty blunt about it. Dalinar could take the power and defeat Odium by himself, instead he chooses sacrifice for greater good. In contrast Taravangian embraces it for personal ambition, which presumably leads toward his downfall. Kaladin prioritizes his well-being, stepping down as leader of the Windrunners. In doing so, he empowers others to rise and take responsibility, allowing growth where once there was dependency. Adolin refuses the command over Azir’s forces and place among the Radian Knights. By trusting those around him, he strengthens bonds and inspires others to step into their own potential. Renarin an Rlain hold a potent weapon against Odium in Ba-Ado-Mishram but choose to release it, restoring balance and righting the wrongs of the past In their own ways all characters arcs are echoing the same theme.

Given that prophecy of him becoming the Champion was fulfilled, we can expect him to have nine Unmade shadows. Unless Retribution is going to unmake them again that means all Surges save for Adhesion, Thrill, some form of precognition, ability to corrupt investiture and animate Midnight Essence among the others. Probably the same weird speed stuff that Heralds do

Dalinar is the complete package—the perfect blend of leader and soldier of his era: The most accomplished general of his time. Among the deadliest fighters. Inspiring troop leader. Ruthlessly efficient and intelligent. Living symbol of conquest, feared by whole Roshar. And then there are the Nine Shadows. If a supernatural justification is needed, consider this: the potential to bind or subjugate all the Unmade is far beyond the reach of an ordinary mortal. What more could Odium possibly desire in his chosen sword?

Shard of Booze and Funky Flavors, finally a god I've been waiting for

None of that is lost on me, but that only serves Cosmere. It feels like trading lives and agency of Roshar's people for some grand maybe plan. Odium can't escalate conflict beyond what it currently is, and Radiants can't destroy planet on their own. Free will matters. Anti-light will extinguish the conflict in time. What is so wrong with letting people choose their battles? This is my main complain, Id rather pick between Honor and Odium, than be forced to follow Retribution. I also can't see Honor-side not winning this conflict with Dalinar as Shard, it would be far stretch with Blackthorn on his side.

Near the ending of The Way of Kings

This still open to interpretation though? Additionally, the Soul has some ability to shape the Mind: As I read it, the Mind serves as a filter of Investiture, modifying what is being imprinted onto mental picture of self. But this mental snapshot is "saved" as a part of the Soul, therefor can be tampered with. Since separation works both ways, Mind is unable to process the pain, but only the filter the filter is removed. This will create growing divergence between what was "saved" and how Heralds perceive themselves. And once Cognitive aspect and Spiritweb are reconnected, they will need to be reconciled. Thinking more about this, I can't imagine separation of soul and perception of self being good for it. Especially for Cognitive Shadow, it will likely lead to deterioration over time, right?

Yea, I think you are right. The conclusion is only satisfying if we accept it at face value. It's what the author tells us rather than what the story shows us. Giving Roshar to Odium (T picking Honor was a gamble) it essentially enslaved it's people under Retribution and now they will be forced into larger, far more devastating war between Shards - one that involves all of them instead of three. It's hard to see how this improves Roshar's situation in any meaningful way. While one could argue that Dalinar's betrayal of Honor did unite Shards against common enemy, the bigger issue remains: every Shard is inherently flawed. They are all "problem Shards" not just Odium. Forcing them into conflict might give them temporary focus but it's pretty much guaranteed to escalate into chaos and destruction of unprecedented scale. Ultimately, the only permanent solution seems to lie in either splintering every Shard completely or reforging Adonalsium whole. Maybe this is why Hoid is so happy with Dalinar decision? Regardless, it does feel like very utilitarian and un-Dalinar-like

Oh yes, they are totally dead. But with Honor developing sentience and chaos of Cosmere War I, I wouldn't leave out any possibility. Dunno about Virtuosity, haven't read that one, but I assume not much is known? @Deianira I don’t hate Adolin. In fact, some of my favorite moments in the series involve him. But every time he gets a chance to shine, it’s immediately undercut by anticlimactic nonsense. He was never supposed to be part of the main cast, yet he has all the pieces to be one of the most nuanced characters in the series. He has so much untapped potential: the consciousness of guilt, feelings of inadequacy, refusal to grow up, and dedication to his craft. But every opportunity to properly explore these themes is made irrelevant or reduced to a gag. The Duel? Undercut by the king throwing a tantrum and his “imprisonment”—“you had cologne in jail?” Hilarious. Unable to keep up? He keeps up anyway, gets mortally wounded, walks it off, and complains about his ruined shirt. Murder? Daddinar gives him an earful. That should at least ground him, right? Disability? It lasts a couple of hours. For his next duel, maybe hand him a candelabra. This isn’t really a critique of Adolin himself. It’s about poor writing choices that robbed him of depth and gravitas. If he’s a main character now, maybe it’s time to treat him like one instead of comic relief.

@CuratorOTL IG @morcey2 As far as i understand Inquisitors use Steel spikes for eyesight - steel affects physical attributes. Moash seems to has diamond polestones - tied to essence of lucentia - associated with light, clarity, sight etc. How does that work on level of Spiritual Web? Your guess is as good as mine, I'd lean toward idea that the attribute has to be taken from someone. Unethical experiments like that would definitely fit into Kharbranth healthcare system, so you are probably on right track.

Taravangian makes a deal with Dova( Battar ) - one of the Heralds he has been working with during his Diagram days. In exchange for a whole planet in future, she agrees to work for him. Its the one of Tarangian's interludes: I assume the mechanics of Investiture sight works the same, but they use gemstones instead of metal.

@QuantumAce I was thrown off by Ishar saying "freed from whatever our souls or bodies might feel" and some WoB about gravitating toward biggest part of self. Reading it again, I take it back. It's clearly explained that bodies are only used on Roshar, original stays behind and they use "bodies of power" during Returns.

@Sedside Odium having preference was enough to cripple Rayse, and Honor started having opinions. Dealing with a rebellious omnipotent teenager will drive Taravangian insane. At least that's what I think will happen. I guess we read the same book then as I've got the same vibe - Dalinar simply don't want to kill his grand-nephew. He argues that winning is meaningless either way because how crafty Todium is, but that's not how it looks like.

@MagicMaggot We are not talking about fact literature, any quote given is open to interpretation. While Stormlight is not exactly masterpiece of modern storytelling, there are some deeper themes underneath surface level ideas. You can't expect me to cite something that is written between the lines and can't expect the book to explicitly explain everything like to a cow in a ditch. So no, I don't think the "word" is authoritative. My interpretation of the crusade’s goal comes from the overarching tones of Szeth’s story: uncovering truth, seeking justice, and building confidence among others. What led you to think it was about personal vendetta? Szeth was presented a choice: dedicate to existing laws of humans or accept old laws of Dawnsingers and new god. Instead he identifies undisclosed path - to follow a person. Nale assumed that meant himself, but Szeth’s questioning of Nale’s reasoning throughout the book makes it clear that was never the case. The choice was always Dalinar. Yes - he still remains in the Order but follows his own path within it. I view it as significant departure from blind obedience. Ideal of Dedication purpose, in my eyes, is to give the Radiant a crutch until better understanding of Justice is achieved. Szeth makes the decision (cleanse Shinovar) - Dalinar approves it (if he wills it). This dynamic respects and reinforces Knights's agency rather than undermining it, with the Ideal acting as a framework rather than an imposition. Szeth cannot trust himself to make righteous decision so relies on external judgement to validate it. Regardless, we seem to agree that he made a choice and that's progress. While you can dismiss it as replacing one owner with another, speculate on what he might have done under different circumstances or simply reject them as inconsequential, to me the act itself is what ultimately matters. I do agree, that he was far from perfect during events of WaT, there wouldn't be much point to the journey if he was. He did however drawn weapon on both Nale and Ishar in RoW, which I've read as an act of defiance. Through both magical and mundane means he was convinced to be insane. Despite all the gaslighting, each time he's required to make a commitment, he makes the choice aligning with his own sense of justice and never shying away from questioning authorities - this quality was taken away from him in WaT. @Sedside @Treamayne We kinda knew that Odium would be unleashed on the Cosmere so it's not the resolution that rubs me the wrong way. I have a problem with reasoning around it. I don't get any sense of desperation or hopelessness, for all we have seen, Desolation turned out to be a case of bad weather and the apocalypse got stuck in crem. Dalinar winning the contest solves almost everything in context of Roshar: 1) Coalition gets Alethkar, Herdaz, Azir, Urithiru and probably Shattered Plains, Shinovar and whatever Ishar conquered - that's pretty much totality of human military power 2) Heralds are getting better - Oathpact gets reforged and they have plenty of time to recuperate during ceasefire 3) Unoathed are now a thing 4) Most of Skybreakers return to Honor's side 5) Radiants dominate the Fused on any battlefield, the only thing they had in favor was ability to resurect - existance of anti-light hurts them more 6) But most importanly - Dalinar now holds the power of Honor - this alone completely changes power dynamics What does the Odium gets? 1) Thaylena - rich nation of merchants who used to have navy (good luck utilizing it when Dalinar controls the Highstorm) 2) Taravangian empire is already crumbling - Ba-Ado-Mishram will create schizm between parshendi and try to usurp the power, Unmade are willing to betray him, Singers already did rebel and for humans it's a matter of time I just can't see reality where Odium does not lose. It will definitively improve situation of Cosmere in the long run but there's no way to foresee the outcome when 16 Shards are involved making it desperate gamble. With current resolution both parshendi and humans are essentially enslaved to Retribution and will be forced into intergalactic war with other Shards. Is that improvement over current conflic?

No, you recall it correctly. If Jasnah deduced that before the debate, she would have an legit reason to participate. Taravangian main goal was to humilate and hurt Jasnah, he had Thaylena already but was willing to pay more to do so. Jasnah woke up and decided it was a good idea to have a verbal match with almost omniscient being. Smart.