Qianweilian

I mention it as a consolidated - aristocratic system. I agree, this does make it interesting and more nuanced than meritocratic=better. Something like Hemalurgy is purely meritocratic, it only requires knowledge, but it absolutely harms society in general.

Yeah I agree, I think the singer forms could fall under widespread - meritocratic in the way they are spread out. I think socialism as a term is misleading, as it implies political and economic systems that don't really exist in the Cosmere (yet). Magical socialism would probably be something closer to if the Hallandren God Kings seized control of the market and managed the breath trade - a plutocratic system turned either meritocratic (in its best form) or aristocratic (in its worst form).

I think the best system is one where I control all the magic. I believe I have a better classification for this with two scales - prevalence and method of obtaining. Prevalence runs from consolidated to widespread and method runs from aristocratic to meritocratic. - Consolidated Only a few individuals control this power, basically only the very top of the upper class. If not part of the upper class, still extremely rare. - Concentrated Still rare, usually (but not always) the hallmarks and criterion for the upper class. Something most people won't be able to dream of. - Widespread Many people don't have the power in this situation. But either a majority or plurality of society do. You wouldn't be surprised to see someone with it walking down the street. And now, the method of obtainment scale: - Aristocratic Either born with it, or granted through a method irrelated to talent or wealth. - Plutocratic Primarily obtained through money, connections, strings, or other channels that aren't meritocratic. - Meritocratic Obtained through merit or worth, whether moral integrity, intelligence, charisma, talent, or some other way Examples of each category: Consolidated - Aristocratic Feruchemy, Divine Breath, Dead Shards, kandra, Elantrian-ness, etc. Consolidated - Plutocratic Higher heightenings Consolidated - Meritocratic Hemalurgy, Radiant Oaths Concentrated - Aristocratic Allomancy Concentrated - Plutocratic Lower heightenings and awakening, Soulcasters (and fabrials in general) Concentrated - Meritocratic Soul stamping Widespread - Aristocratic Heaving a breath in general Widespread - Plutocratic Medallions, first heightening Widespread - Meritocratic As far as I know, this doesn't really exist in the cosmere (yet).

This is where our viewpoints differ. I'm sorry that I was lecturing and telling you how to feel, that was not my intention, but I don't hold the same view of what "winning" an argument is. I believe that the only way to "win" an argument is to walk away from it more knowledgeable and thoughtful, regardless of what your initial viewpoint was. 1) This is not sarcasm. I'm sorry if it seemed like it. My viewpoints about the themes of Stormlight is mostly unchanged, but you made me rethink it and justify it, which I appreciate. 2) Please don't be sorry on my behalf. I enjoyed this conversation and I enjoy, in general, stretching my brain and thinking through things. I sincerely apologize if this seems to mock you or gloat. I have no intention of doing so, instead I am genuinely thanking you for starting this discussion and going through your viewpoint. Perhaps you have a point there. I do tend to get an ego as the "smart" and "enlightened" person in arguments. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. (Yes, this is sincere) I was trying to see another point of view, but there are many moments where I was trying to correct you instead of thoughtfully discuss, especially near the beginning of this thread. I agree with @Immortal Platypus in that I'll have to add the book you mentioned to my reading list. It sounds pretty interesting. I'm probably not going to continue responding to this thread, as I feel the conversation has wound down and is no longer productive, instead we're picking up the pieces of our feelings and debating the victor of said argument.

No one "wins" an argument except by walking away with a greater understanding. Reading your viewpoint has made me rethink my feelings toward Stormlight, and although they are still different then yours, I thank you for giving me this opportunity. If you just surrender and cease discussion, everyone loses. I made disagree with your point of view, but I still want it to be expressed and discussed.

Why would they be executed? They were slaves, forced into a profession with guaranteed fatality, and intentionally doing what they had to survive. If anything, Sadeas should be executed for forcing them into that position (oh wait). Even if none of that was true, desecration of the dead, despite being a disgusting disrespect for humanity (or listenerdom), it's not an offense we execute people for! In addition, Kaladin later apologizes to Rlain. This in no way excuses it, but shows they've grown significantly. Every time an action like this occurs, the protagonists' actions are repeatedly condemned by side characters, other protagonists, the antagonists, their spren, and eventually themselves. Lying usually only occurs on infiltration missions with Shallan or the protagonists lying to themselves. It's still fairly rare that it actually happens though. Breaking promises only occurs for Kaladin and Dalinar really... I have no idea what you're thinking about putting desires above duty, other than Kaladin's decision to take leave (which I would disagree), and the only extremely pragmatic/results oriented character (don't understand how this is "dishonorable") is Jasnah, and maybe a little bit of Navani.

So if you add Whimsy, it's the Joker shard

Yes, I agree. I actually don't think so...Nightblood has killed a vessel! I think a metalmind could not block it; a regular shardblade might be another story. I don't believe TLR has chromium actually...maybe he did and there's a WoB I can't find. Yeah, probably. If he can get over his ego. Where is this shown? If there isn't a text example, I'm not certain about this. The minimum temperature to fuse hydrogen on earth is about 100 million Kelvin, which I don't think TLR can even get close to, considering diminishing returns. You should probably say the spoiler is for Dragonsteel Prime outside of the spoiler tag. I don't even think we need to mention Dragonsteel, as Hoid (kinda) healed from complete obliteration by a shard. Although he obviously couldn't heal if his metalminds were completely obliterated, TLR could likely heal similar levels of damage.

I don't think soulcasting him would be feasible because TLR is a sliver and powerful mistborn. It'd be even harder than soulcasting a radiant spren.

Sorry, that was a bit of an overexaggeration, saying he would beat a herald. But Taln is very much not the average herald. I do think (rational) TLR would take most of them. Honestly yeah. I'm mostly talking about current Lift w/ nightblood, because we really have no idea what she could be capable of. Even now, if she used Nightblood to exit the CR right in front of TLR, then she could probably assassinate him with it.

Imo, the "playing field" is between TLR's arrogance and pragmatism unless Lift teleports from CR and assassinates him almost immediately (which is both out of character and begins to move away from the presumed premise) That's a neat theory. I like it, and it makes sense.

I agree, but a fullborn could absolutely rush Lift before she had a chance to react, let alone do something like this. I don't actually think so, given that anyone can use metalminds as long as they have the "key" identity. Lift might be able to take his connection to Preservation though. This is pretty much useless because either TLR ganks Lift before she can react, or TLR is stupid and lets Lift use Nightblood/Bondsmith powers because he thinks he's a god. This is the main reason I think Lift would most likely win, not because of her abilities, but the fact that Rashek doesn't care. He'd probably try to teach her a lesson instead of actually using most of his powers. I actually change my mind. We know that the Nightblood compulsion is like rioting, and as soon as Rashek realizes, he'll probably turn on his superpowered coppercloud.

I think we can look for the answer in the Wheel of Time, of which Brandon wrote the last three books. Wheel of Time Spoilers

I concur. I don't have TFE on hand to give quotes, but I recall Rashek saying that he could put down the rebellion himself and WoB confirms he could have conquered Scadrial completely with the sword instead of using diplomacy. Sazed and Wax both suggest that Feruchemical power when using compounding is multiplied tenfold. With the metals we know for certain that TLR had access to that means the following atttributes are near-infinite compared to the average person: Weight (might be mass) Physical Speed Sensory Perception Physical Strength Mental Speed Warmth (or cold if you choose to store a large amount) Wakefulness Identity Health (means near instant healing) Determination Youth We know that gold can heal from shardblade wounds to the head and restore abilities lost to hemalurgy which, although not relevant in this case, shows how powerful gold healing actually is. He is also probably the most powerful Mistborn ever, considering how he can easily pierce copperclouds, push/pull on metal in bodies, and even cause depression-like effects in 10k people at once. He's also a near or full savant in every metal. A rational TLR would absolutely destory a Herald, let alone Lift. However, TLR isn't completely rational. Not knowing what it is, he'd probably be dumb enough to let himself get stabbed by Nightblood as a show of force, which would probably destroy him. Even if that doesn't occur, when TLR beats Lift, I suspect Nightblood's draw to "evil" people would cause him eventually to stab himself and all his inquisitors. Remember, TLR's willpower and drive to live has been worn down by Ruin for a millennia. So, Lift would probably win, but possibly at the cost of her life. Edit: Or, if TLR isn't paying attention, he could get ganked by a Lift who could elsecall w/ nightblood.

Sorry, I worded that oddly. What I meant it that TLR is more of a looming threat rather than someone we actually know who takes action to stop the protagonists. He's a goal, not a rival, sorry if my wording caused confusion.

We know that planetary subastrals grow similar to the host planet as you travel through them. I'm assuming that as you get closer to another planet, the air concentration grows more and more similar to the planet. Note: (This could be interesting on Roshar if sailing from the Horneater peaks to someone else changed air concentration despite unchanged elevation in Shadesmar)

Actually, it doesn't say that, the numbers are a bit different: (pg 535 on kindle) La Paz, Bolivia is at about 12,000 meters about sea level. According to a study Google found, high-altitude pulmonary oedema develops in about 15.5% of the population when ascending 5,500 m by airlift. Untreated HAPE has approximately a 50% fatality fate. Fortunately, none of the Rosharans are going to be going to Scadrial instantly, (except Hoid in WaT), but even elevation changes in our world have a dramatic effect. Roshar has a lot of oxygen, fire is mentioned as being dangerous and unpredictable for worldhoppers (who at the time of Arcanum Unbounded are sure to have seen some stuff), something it's not even close to being at sea level. Luckily for Rosharans everywhere, Shadesmar travel between planets is not short, and (IoTE spoilers)... Hypothetical travelers are going to have enough time to acclimate. If instant teleportation is ever developed across planets for relatively non-invested individuals (before healing minds/fabrials become commonplace), Rosharans could be in lethal trouble.

If someone was blanking their identity, could you take their breath directly?

I mean, TLR is more of a plot device than an actual antagonist.

I disagree mostly because I think Brandon does just fine with lower powered protagonists. Kenton, Tress, Siri, Marasi, Steris, Nikaro, Sarene, Hrathen, TWoK Kaladin, Dusk, etc. are straight up weak compared to their peers and they are in very engaging books. It's even one of Brandon's laws of magic (of which you say his franchise is built on) that limitations are more interesting than powers.

I feel like star wars isn't the best comparison, as the main characters for nine movies have "mysterious powers from another age" or "the chosen one."

I mean, aviar and rhyshadium create nahel bonds and we've never seen a deadeye one of those. Irc, though don't quote me on this, deadeyes are a new thing since Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture.

I'm actually kind of annoyed because I had this exact WoB posted to my clipboard as was going to respond, but you beat me by 10 minutes. Honestly, the exact percentage probably doesn't matter that much if you're firing spikes past being able to shoot straight. You wouldn't be able to hit a bind point reliably enough; it would probably be best to just aim for immobilizing pain (can't find WoB) and spiritweb damage.

Oh, turns out I lied. 3 hours is not a great track record. Yes, WoB says it can, although it may be tricky to figure out material+bind point for two spikes. You may need a lot of atium. I agree, but eventually we would break down the premise of unified planets. If the Malwish and the Basin break with each other (imo very likely), then Roshar could probably pull off an invasion. Although Retribution would lose non-Skybreaker and non-Dustbringer radiants, the Scadrians would lose some powers either way (medallions or lots of Metalborn) and half their manpower.

We actually have the confirmed location of both. Harmony's is somewhere in the South and controlled by the Malwish; Retribution's is under the Shattered Plains in Narak. As we ca see both historically and in BoM, stealing technology is much more complicated than stealing a schematic; even if they can build a prototype, production on the scale needed for an army is something else entirely. What exactly do you mean by this? Enforcing breeding programs is a very long term strategy and would require them to control Scadrial already. I honestly think this topic is an extremely fun exercise, but it has been argued to death every time a new book comes out. My conclusion is that neither planet can likely occupy the other. As a result, I'm probably going to be less involved in this discussion, as it isn't really being very productive.