Leuthie

I think there's too much being hung on Rayse-Odium taking away Moash's pain here. Odium isn't the emotion Shard. Exactly the opposite. Hate pushes out all emotion. If you've ever felt true hate toward someone or something; seeing red, screaming, strangling hatred, you'll recognize the inability to feel anything else but that hatred. THAT'S what Odium is and THAT'S what Odium uses to make Moash "feel no pain". Odium is the Hate that strangles all other feelings and leaves a Void. I contend that the mindless Unmade were groups of emotion spren that were twisted by Odium and eventually coalesced into singular entities (we don't see party spren or war spren anywhere because Odium "unmade" that type of spren and they coagulated into what we now know as Ashertmarn and Nergaoul) that, rather than being pulled toward the thing they represent, cause a twisted version of it. The more sapient Unmade, like Sja Anat, were singular spren like Stormfather and the Sibling that were corrupted by Odium in the same way Raboniel attempted to corrupt the Sibling. I say all that because Sja Anat isn't only of Odium. Just as Ashertmarn and Nergaoul still represent the thing they always did only in a twisted manner, Sja Anat is still what she was before Odium changed her. She performed spren maintenance or managed spren Identity, somehow. Now she changes their Identity to one more in line with Odium's power. Ba-Ado-Mishram should also be whatever it was before it was Unmade. If BAM was able to Connect to the singers in a way that allowed them to use Voidlight and take forms of power, they would also be able to Connect or change Connection of other things in other ways. If Sja Anat is the corrupted "godess" of Identity, BAM would be the corrupted "godess" of Connection. After a couple thousand years of stewing on Braize, Odium got antsy and told BAM to raise a ruckus. This was a big mistake as BAM created Connections that further tied Odium to Roshar...and tied Roshar to Odium. When BAM was captured, the parts of Roshar she tied to Odium were left without a Connection. When the Everstorm was summoned and Odium returned, many of these things came to life. Parshman and, it seems, Chasmfiends among them. Their Connections were restored. Why not deadeyes? I think you're right that the additional Connection that Odium brings is partially why Adolin is able to affect Maya. It can't be the first time a shardbearer treated his shard like a living thing. People treat their weapons like true living partners all of the time in the real world. <Train of thought hits dead end>

You said "corporations are people now" which is really only used as a deflection away from campaign finance issues where courts have treated corporations as entities covered by the first amendment, barring Congress from making laws that restrict free speech for corporations. I wasn't following your HIPAA argument, so it came out of nowhere in that post. You're right. HIPAA has nothing to do with the First Amendment, nor "corporations as people" nor this conversation in any way. Kelsier wasn't selling nor otherwise spreading his organization's personal health information, nor is he restricted by any real world regulations. He would be all for HIPAA for others, but probably wouldn't care about it if it kept him from reaching what he thought of as greater goals. He would happily sell your health information to get what he wants, but would be pissed if he heard of health information on him or the people he cared about being sold to benefit others. That's the ethics issues I was talking about.

Lovely troll. 'A' for effort.

Corporations are protected by the first amendment in the same way people are (and can use money to exercise that speech like people do). People who disagree with that like to spout "corporations are people now". Political bickering does not make things law. Corporations are not people. CEOs are not held responsible for the mistakes people who work for their organizations make. And legality has nothing to do with ethics. If Kaladin were ethically pure and a perfect leader, he'd make sure the people in his organization were ethically pure. He's neither, so he will neither mess with their ethics, nor have the ability to do so if he wanted to.

No. Moash should continue to fall. He should gain and lose powers and abilities as the story requires. He should have some successes and some losses and continue into the back 5 books. He should always be a secondary antagonist with bigger and bigger asperations. His final act should be to accidentally save everyone he tried to hurt and undermine everything he ever accomplished. Basically, Padan Fain with a more consequential ending.

The tones made the Investiture "run away". It caused pain and inability in Raboniel and Moash if I remember right. Navani used the anti-Voidlight tone to clear the Voidlight from the Sibling. It doesn't kill or cause explosions, but if a flying Radiant's Stormlight is cleared, a long fall and no healing is bad.

Definitely Mad Max Fury Road, playing flaming guitars on top of flying platforms.

You all worry about anti-stormlight weapons to kill spren. I would be preparing for that, but what really turns things are the anti-light TONES. Sounds with Intent can be used to nullify Investiture. A Fused or a Radiant can be made useless by SOUND. THAT'S going to be the big thing. We'll see some weapons that kill the previously unkillable, but the real change in fighting will be the introduction of Stormlight and Voidlight killing tones to the battlefield.

Let me start by saying you could be right and restating your arguments multiple times in multiple ways doesn't make you more right. Yes, it could be that the 5th Ideal isn't what I think it's going to be. It could be an open ended Oath that puts the Windrunner into a single line of protection, like you stated. I'd be all for that. In that case, I think Kalandin's Oath will be to protect without killing. But I could be wrong. We could all be wrong. I believe I've stated some arguments as to how my thoughts fit the character and the narrative up to this point. You have stated arguments why you think I'm wrong and why it wouldn't make sense to have pacifist protectors. These latter arguments amount to it being too difficult. I don't believe "too difficult" is a good argument against a 5th Ideal, but you could be right. Any of us could. And in which world is a Radiant order full of Batmans a bad thing?

And very few Radiants of any order made it to the 5th Ideal. Windrunners that never avoid harming others stay at the 4th Ideal. Windrunners that never let go of their failures stay on the 3rd. Skybreakers who can't convince their spren that they've become the law never reach the 5th Ideal. The 5th Ideal shouldn't be something everyone can or even wants to reach. If the primary purpose of Windrunners is to protect, why only protect those who are being attacked? If you can protect everyone in a fight (do no harm even to those doing the attacking), wouldn't this make you a better protector? If Kaladin found a way to get Teft out of his family's rooms without killing the Singer (which he doesn't actually see as enemies BTW, only pawns in Odium's fight), wouldn't everyone have been better off? And I don't see a "seek to do no harm" oath as being one that makes a Windrunner a complete pacifist. If killing is required because the opponent requires it, you would be breaking your oath more by not protecting your charge than you would by killing the one that refuses to not be killed. Fighting and incapacitation without killing wouldn't break Oaths (injuries can be healed, after all). The 5th Ideal Windrunner would be able to protect without leaving a trail of death behind them. To me, this fits the intent of the order perfectly and seems to be a great final barrier to whatever it locked behind the 5th Ideal. You can use the entirety of the Windrunner abilities only if you swear and Oath that you will always seek to do no harm with them.

Just FYI concerning aluminum and its source: Aluminum is rare because it's difficult to separate from mined material without electricity. It will be plentiful once technology catches up. It is the most abundant metal and 3rd most element element in the Earth's crust behind Oxygen and Silicon. Roshar has Invested rocks. However, the aluminum in rocks (on Earth) is locked away in various compounds, mostly oxides and sulfates. Aluminum in compounds isn't inert, just as aluminum in emeralds isn't inert. In fact, duralumin enhances allomancy and is literally a copper-aluminum alloy. Only "purified" aluminum is inert (although pure aluminum is so brittle it barely holds a shape and the things we call aluminum are all really alloys of aluminum, zinc, copper, silicon, chromium, etc.). Therefore, the aluminum in Roshar's rocks wouldn't interfere with any Investiture. Hope that helps.

I think Gavilar thought he knew more than he did. Nale and Kalak, being super insane and all, aren't the best advisors. I'm sure the Feruchemist that gave Venli the sphere that brought the storm was also responsible for some of the spheres Gavilar had. I'm almost certain that he was also in touch with Stormfather/had seen the visions. He was also in the presence of Unmade (effects from Nergaoul and Moelach had been seen prior, and you can't tell me that Ashertmarn was never in Kholinar prior to Oathbringer), as evidenced by the way he treated Navani in the most recent prologue. The man was a mess just before he died. The guy was a successful warlord with a huge sword (Dalinar) that eventually thought his conquests were evidence of greatness that extended beyond war. He was manipulated into eternal megalomania by multi-thousand year old forces into doing things he barely understood. I'm sure someone convinced him he could take up a Shard. Doesn't mean there was any chance he could do it.

He does seem to be grooming Wax for the job in Era 2. And now that I've looked through 10 pages of WOB regarding Kelsier: his associates killing people probably isn't much of an issue.

When Kaladin went full Odium eyes and flew to the top of the tower and jumped off, I saw in my mind's eye an explosion behind him and expected him to fly into a window several stories down. Would be a good question for Brandon: "were you influenced by Die Hard at all when you outlined or wrote Kaladin's scenes during the occupation of Urithiru?"

The Eagles - Hotel California I'm 99% sure you've heard it, either in full, in a TikTok, or as a sample in some other more current popular song. It is one of the most listened to songs ever produced. You should go listen it now.

Unless Thaidakar is Kelsier AND Harmony. Harmony with Kelsier as the "avatar" and usual face.

Yep. This was my takeaway from RoW. If Kalak led the Sons of Honor and Kalak is currently intent on freeing BAM, wouldn't that be what Gavilar was seeking and what the Listeners wanted to stop? The Desolations returning was probably a surprise secondary consideration, and might be part of the reason Gavilar thought Restares had sent the assassin. We'll find out more in the Book 5 prologue, I'm sure.

Has anyone speculated that Thaidakar is Harmony and Thaidakar's avatar is Kelsier? By nature, Harmony has to play both sides. He has to seek destruction and preservation. He is just limited in his direct abilities to act due to his opposing Intents. Wouldn't it make sense to create organizations and avatars to represent him? His letter to Hoid says so: This letter was probably written prior to the current action on Roshar. Mistborn Era 2 takes place between Book 5 and 6 (approximately): Now, Brandon and his team have all but confirmed that Thaidakar is Kelsier. And Wit is specifically talking to Kelsier when he has Shallan send the message to him through Wit. However, the continued caginess seems more than just trying to keep the secret from people who haven't read RoW. Why would anything Kelsier sent be called an Avatar? How can an organization sent by Kelsier be able to walk into an occupied Urithiru and propose trades with Fused? I'm going to fully lean in and start the "Thaidakar is Harmony" and "Kelsier is Harmony's champion and avatar" train rolling.

Some of Kaladin's problems stem from the fact that his need to protect others has led him to perform acts that go against his nature. He's not a naturally violent person. He doesn't relish killing people. He enjoys the fight in much the same way that Adolin enjoys dueling. The competition and the dance. Kaladin even agrees with Lirin when Lirin admonishes him for violence and murder. Kaladin simply can't see a way around such things. When Kaladin can see a way around it. When protecting others doesn't require stabbing people in the neck and leaving them bleeding on the floor of his family's home, Kaladin will reach the 5th Ideal. It just makes too much sense for the story and too much sense for a Radiant order who's primary purpose is protecting others. To get full access to the order's powers, you have to do everything you can to avoid harming others. This doesn't make them pure pacifists, but Kaladin could have gotten Teft out of his room without killing. He just didn't. "Protect others even if you hate them." "Let go of those you cannot protect" and what would a surgeon's primary oath be? "I will do no harm" Too much lines up narratively for the 5th Ideal not to follow where Lirin is leading Kaladin.

We know how holes in future sight work. When two people can see the same set of possibilities, they become future-sight-invisible to each other. There is no way to predict what someone is going to do if that someone is reacting to the possibilities that you see, and vice versa. The biggest question: why is Renarin unseeable to Odium, but Odium isn't unseeable to Renarin. In other words: if Odium can't see Renarin's effects on Dalinar, why can Renarin see Odium's effects on Dalinar? The only answer is that Renarin isn't seeing HIS OWN future sight, he's seeing Odium's future sight through Glys. Radiant spren are direct conduits to the powers of Honor (and Cultivation, maybe?). Sja Anat's corruption probably adds a conduit to Odium to the mix. In the case of the only corrupted Truthwatcher spren we've seen (until one talked to Rlain), this conduit provides some future sight. When we see Renarin share a sight with Dalinar, we see that the visions come directly through Glys. Glys literally tells Renarin that they have a vision and shares that vision with Renarin. Glys showed Dalinar the vision the same way they showed Renarin. This would make Glys a direct conduit to Odium's future sight. So Renarin would be able to see the effects that Odium has (future sight wouldn't work very well if you couldn't see possibilities that result from your own decisions), but the possibilities presented by Renarin's reactions to those visions would be invisible to Odium. They would also, presumably, be invisible to Renarin himself. This explains why he saw Jasnah killing him and Dalinar falling to the dark side in Oathbringer. He sees what Odium sees but not exactly how he has affected those visions. This would make Renarin's future sight incredibly useful as a recon tool, but not as useful as burning atium all the time. Renarin would not be able to see the results of his actions. He wouldn't be able to see the results of telling someone about a sight or taking direct action on a sight, so he has to be very careful in that regard. Again, going to the sight he shares with Dalinar. He and Glys had both agreed that the risk of bad outcomes from showing Dalinar were low. So yeah, that's how I think it works.

Ooops. You're right. I applied Roshar mechanics to Sel. Elantrians don't have a middle man (middle spren?). They are the direct conduit to the Dor. Which actually makes more sense since the Elantrian is the conduit itself on Sel while the spren is the conduit on Roshar. The Elantrian was "deadeyed" on Sel while the spren were deadeyed on Roshar. The effects of losing Connection were slightly different, probably due in part to Elantrians being Physical beings and spren being Cognitive beings pulled into the Physical in part by the very Connection that was broken.

He's also 2 levels removed from the actions we see on screen with the Ghostbloods. Ultimately, he's responsible, but we're talking about a multiple planet, multiple planes of existence organization. There are 2 Subway shops within 1 mile of me, one is meticulously clean and always staffed and stocked, the other always looks like it just barely made it through a localized tornado, you often have to hit the bell for someone to notice you walked in, and they never have the italian herbs and cheese bread. That's two sandwich shops in the same damn town. Running organizations is hard.

Expected to see Zahel/Vasher fight when the tower was attacked. I wanted to see Leshwi and Kaladin fight again, but am also glad that they'll probably be on the same side next time.

There was no time travel, there was just a removal of short term memory. Hoid tells a story, plays with coins, and argues with Design. Hoid sends Design away. Hoid talks to Odium Hoid notices it's not Rayse Todium removes the memory of the conversation Hoid tells the same story as before Hoid goes to play with the coins and notices they are not in the right places Hoid goes to talk to Design and remembers he sent him away Hoid talks to Odium Hoid notices his perfect pitch is not right Hoid notes that something is wrong but still says that the meeting had gone exactly as he imagined. I'm convinced a few things: Hoid knows when someone messes with his memories through the perfect pitch thing Hoid had to have also known that something messed with him when the coins were misplaced and Design was gone (Todium didn't completely remove the memory of Hoid sending Design away) Hoid then tries to convince himself or the audience that everything went as planned. I don't think there's going to be some huge reveal about this in the next book. No major consequences for Wit or Todium. No game changing information that Todium got. It's just an interesting aside to show a bit more about Wit and how he does some things, a little nugget about how Todium is plying his new trade, and to put another nugget of uncertainty regarding the upcoming contest. After all, Rayse and Dalinar didn't agree to Cephandrius' contract. They agreed to their own contract.

They aren't a monolithic group, either. Nothing in the book said that every honorspren was now going to go bond a human. The honor of humans wasn't fully restored, but it will be hard for anyone to convince reasonable honorspren to continue to believe that humans are genocidal to spren and should never be bonded again. Some honorspren were convinced, the city was opened where it once was closed. That's it. There will still be debate and those who will never bond. To say that spren "don't change" isn't to say they can't be convinced of things. It's also possible that no one's mind was changed; simply a power dynamic was overcome, allowing freedom that was being suppressed before.