Underwater_Worldhopper

I don't think it would totally negate each other, since Pewter can't give you too much extra sensitivity lest you start acting like a Tin Misting, but it could totally help lessen the effects of the numbness, just not completely remove it. Pewter Savantism could also result in something like increased sensitivity to drowsiness, so when you get tired you may immediately start getting horrific brain fog and dizziness, which could make you pass out, an inversion of how Pewter lets you ignore fatigue and sleepiness

I see what you're getting at, but it doesn't directly disprove it. Maybe I'm biased because iirc I've seen posts where the end consensus is that Atium shadows could be stored, but I lean towards the idea that you could store the ability to see the Shadows.

An interesting drawback for Pewter Savantism: We know from Spook that Pewter is a Pushing metal, and it kinda dulls your senses, in that it makes you more resistant to pain and things like sleep deprivation. Could a Pewter Savant, when not Burning Pewter, feel overly sensitive and become susceptible to overstimulation? It would make a fun parallel to Tin Savantism, where you feel completely numb when not Burning.

Could you perhaps store the Shadows only, but not the mental enhancement that allows you to react to them? That way you're still storing the sense, but not the 'gut feeling' Fortune aspects?

He is one Shard, yes, but I mean the Investiture itself still exists within him as either Preserving Investiture or Ruinous Investiture, not one mass of Harmony-Investiture. Similarly, the Intents of Preservation and Ruin are still bouncing around in there somewhere, otherwise Harmony wouldn't be so at odds with himself, he'd only strive for Harmony, whatever it means, not a balance between the two previous Intents, which is what he's currently doing. If he died, he would drop Harmony, but Harmony itself is a unified construct within which Preservation and Ruin still exist. This is what the Coppermind article on Shards says: What exactly is wrong? The phrasing isn't the best, but what I was trying to say here was that since there is no Harmony-Investiture, Harmonium is just Ruin and Preservation's Investiture manifested together in a way that's separate from an alloy. We have evidence of this in the fact that Harmonium, when heated, tries to split into Atium and Lerasium, and can then be actually split into the two. Harmonium is two substances (if Investiture could be called a substance) trying to act like they're one, but since they're so diametrically opposed to one another, this make it extremely reactive, since they actively try to separate, and use reacting as a means to achieve that end. The perception of the Vessel can't affect the Shard to that degree, otherwise Rayse could've changed Odium into Passion. This is where we get into the fundamental nature of Shards in the Cosmere. Adonalsium, presumably, didnt have an Intent, so he didnt have to deal with things like certain actions being against his Intent (There was a WoB that Adonalsium's Intent might have been something like making sentient life, but it isnt confirmed). He was shattered using the Dawnshards, which were the Commands used to make quite literally everything, so it's possible that the process of Shattering changed the nature of Adonalsium. He had access to pure, unpolarised, Intentless Investiture, but the process of Shattering, given the way Brandon talks about it, likely polarised sixteen aspects of Adonalsium against each other, and were then split into separate Shards. The fact that he could have been Shattered into a different number of Shards, and different Intents, lends credence to this idea. The Shards don't necessarily embody crucial aspects of existence, but are rather random characteristics of Adonalsium that were made extreme and then yanked apart from one another. I believe that to remake Adonalsium the way he was originally, the Dawnshards would have to be used again. Simply getting one person to Ascend as Vessel to every Shard wouldn't be enough to remake Adonalsium in that original form. If that were to happen, it would be all sixteen Shards, separate but confined together in one 'Shard', not a singular entity that encompasses all of it under one power, like Adonalsium likely was. As for Hybrid Shards with more than two Shards, my theory still works, the balance would just be harder to maintain over all of those Intents. The idea is that all Investiture was divided into 16 and then polarised to one of the sixteen Intents, and now not even having one Vessel controlling both can merge the different Investitures into one Investiture unless the Dawnshards are used. We have proof of this, given that when Sazed Ascends, he notes that The powers don't combine, they remain separate. Harmony doesn't have Harmony-Investiture, but both Ruin and Preservation's Investiture, separate within his one Shard. If you read what I said more carefully, you'd have realised why I dont count these two. The Dor is Investiture which has been pulled out of the SR and into the CR. It no longer acts as a Shard, but rather as just a lot of Investiture. Besides, the fact that the Intents are separate yet forced together puts pressure on the Dor, making it push for release through Sel's Invested Arts, meaning its actively fighting against its combination, and would likely separate if given the chance (Though it might not for a different reason, which is stated in the paragraph after the next). Its similar to Harmonium, but where Harmonium is held together because of the fact that the two Shards are now contained in one hybrid Shard, the Dor remains together because it has nowhere to go, being trapped in the CR. I'm not arguing that Investiture can never be combined under any circumstances, I'm arguing that when one Vessel Ascends to hold more than one Shard, their Intent becomes about the balance of the two Shards rather than a hybrid Intent of the two originals, and the Dor doesn't contradict this because it no longer acts as a Shard (reason below) and doesn't have a Vessel. Given that its been forced together so long that its developed a rudimentary consciousness, it might not be able to have a Vessel now at all, effectively removing it from consideration as a Shard until that consciousness becomes sapient enough to act on its own like a human. Given that its forming its own mind, it may refrain from splitting, but only because its been forced together so long that the power itself became sentient. Sazed chose the name because he felt it matched the Intent the Shard came to have; He did not decide on the actual Intent the Shard ended up having. If his perception mattered so much that it determined the Shard's Intent, it would have become something like Creation, given that's how Sazed thinks of it during and after his Ascension. He realises that they can create together, and that they belong together. If his perception made a difference, Harmony would be Creation, and the two Wells of Investiture would become one with the matching Intent. This is one of the reasons I started considering this theory in the first place, since it shows that Sazed's impression of the Shard didn't have nearly as big of an impact on Harmony's Intent as it should have.

The Shards do join and become a single Shard, given the Sazed would drop Harmony/Discord if he died, but within that unified construct, I'd argue that the basic Shards remain at least partly separate (The Coppermind article says as much, although Harmony may be an outlier in this regard). Notice that Sazed's Intent isn't an amalgamation of Ruin and Preservation, but rather about the balance between the two. We know for a fact that the powers of Ruin and Preservation can be used in tandem to do things, such as when they created Scadrial together, or when Sazed describes how he uses them in HoA. It's not like they couldn't have formed an Intent that's something like Creation or Protection (Destroy to Preserve), we actively see Sazed say that the powers belong together, and that they can be used together to create. That, when considered with his view of the powers at the end of HoA, its seems very weird and out of place that the Intent he settles on isn't Creation or something like that, but rather Harmony, unless opposing Shards always end up with the Intent of either Harmony or Discord (or, again, something along those lines)

A-Electrum arguably isn't very useful outside of some very specific situations, since the more you pay attention to the Shadows, the more they blur and change, since you're creating the Mistborn with Atium vs Mistborn with Atium feedback loop, except with yourself. F-Zinc would probably exacerbate the issue, since the more information you glean from the Shadows, the more they change and blur as you change what you will do because of the knowledge, which then blurs the Shadows even more, ad infinitum until you can't get any information from the Shadows at all, and since the majority of the information gleaning and changing actions happens in the future, there's no net benefit in the present at all. I honestly think Electrum is the most useful when you can train yourself to actually follow the Shadow, so you only have one Shadow and can change what you do only when something happens to the Shadow. At first glance, this would seem impossible since the Shadow would split and change before you could see what causes the change because the Shadow is showing what will actually happen in the future, so you'd never see the Shadow itself get injured, but if it changes it means future you has seen something that causes them to divert the future, which is a warning in and of itself, so even though you'd never actually see the Shadow get injured, it should still change, which warns you. A little counter-intuitive seeming at first, but it makes sense once you think about it. All in all, A-Electrum is largely useless, but the clever could find uses for it. The mental benefit goes out the window though, because Atium, when confronted with Atium, balances out as the Shadows become indecipherable, which is what happens off the bat with Electrum.

He may not have expected to specifically be overthrown and killed, he just knew Ruin was working very hard to escape, and he was the biggest obstacle in Ruin's way, so Ruin would definitely try to get rid of him somehow. The caches were a failsafe in case he died.

I ask because while a lot of Sharders theorize what the combinations of Shards would be (like my idea of Cultivation + Ruin becoming Change or Evolution just above), the only known instance of Shards being combined in a way where they still act as a Shard with an Intent (So that means excluding the Dor), the Intent is about the balance of the two preexisting Shards, and not a new, novel Intent. Harmony didn't end up with a new, Harmony-polarised Investiture, but rather Ruin and Preservation's Investiture being mixed together. Harmonium isn't pure Harmony Investiture in solid form, but rather Atium and Lerasium which have been Connected spiritually (not just alloyed, as we know that Harmonium definitely isn't an alloy of Atium and Lerasium), forcing new properties onto it. Harmony also doesn't draw on one singular combined Investiture, but two different ones. Even the Coppermind article on Shards says that Ruin and Preservation "remain somewhat separate within this unified construct", the construct referring to Harmony . The Intents of Preservation and Ruin are still present within Harmony, and the balance (or lack thereof) is what determines Harmony's Intent. Therefore, maybe we've been looking at the merging of Shards wrong this entire time. Maybe Shards don't merge and form a brand new one with a new Intent, but instead, they remain separate within the whole. The equality between them is what affects the Intent, which is always either Harmony or Discord (Obviously a little different to avoid confusion, like Balance and Imbalance, or Consonance and Dissonance, or Unity and Division, etc). This may not hold for Shards with similar or unrelated Intents, like Endowment and Valor, or Mercy and Invention, but it might apply as a rule to opposing or near-opposing Shards, Like Ruin and Preservation, Devotion and Odium (or even Devotion and Dominion, but those complement each other in a way we haven't seen in other Shards, One about gaining and retaining control, the other about lovingly and willfully giving it up to someone, so they might avoid this dilemma), Mercy and Odium, Honor and Whimsy, etc. I don't think there's a WoB that directly contradicts this idea, but If there is I'd love to see it. I've been sitting on this theory for a while. Thoughts?

Hemalurgy cant steal being a a good martial artist, or a painter, or change the composition of something, but Forgery can. I think it could entirely be possible to create a Stamp that could give you Savantism by overlaying your soul with an expanded version. It might take a lot of Investiture (but not as much as would have needed to pass through your soul to expand it, since you're not expanding your actual soul, just creating a pre-expanded one and putting it on top of yours) though, but not unmanageable amounts. Forgery works by making your soul think it did something in the past; why not make it think you burned a lot of metal in said past? It wouldn't be that implausible, given that you don't have to make much of an effort yourself other than having swallowed metal every so often.

Well argued. I still think Mercy wouldn't have supported Odium, and Odium might not have intended to kill Mercy, only Ambition, or he may have been too injured from the struggle to immediately attack Mercy as well, or he simply saw Mercy as not an immediate threat, and was then imprisoned on Roshar before he could, but with the knowledge we have right now, either one could be the case given we have no hard evidence beyond a single epigraph letter. As for other Shard turning a blind eye to Odium, I was arguing specifically against the fact that other Shards were actively helping him Splinter other Shards like Autonomy did, oblique support only is very possible, like you said. If breaking the pact in that way made everyone open to everyone, Odium would have died ages ago. His attacks on the other Shards should have made him vulnerable to every other Shard, which any of the 3 other Splintered Shards should have been able to exploit, or Cultivation would've instead of hiding. I think that breaking such a loose pact would only make you vulnerable to the specific Shard you meddled with, and in that case, the 15 Shards would only be vulnerable to Odium, who couldn't do anything about it. Unless Odium specifically goes after Shards he could argue had already broken the pact, in which case he would still be considered as within the parameters of the original pact (which would mean that Ambition would have had to have been travelling with Mercy together so Odium could use the loophole, meaning Mercy was on Ambition's side, at least initially). That's because Endowment and Autonomy have more stable and constructive Intents. They basically lucked out in that going to extreme cases of their Intent wouldn't be bad for their worlds. Ruin couldn't do that, and neither could Preservation. Most Shards have enough of a moderate Intent that they can manage a world by themselves, but some, like Preservation, Ruin, Odium etc couldn't, and would need another Shard to work with or merge with. The argument is that Shards, when paired together, moderate and complement each others Intents, and so statistically Dishardic Shardworlds would be better off than Monoshardic Shardworlds. Tangent to consider: Would Devotion and Odium's hybrid Intent be Harmony/Discord too?

Aren't we talking about Roshar's ecology and such before the whole Desolations thing? Yes, Odium has been there for the vast majority of the time, but what we were talking about was how successful Shardworlds end up being with two Shards being in residence rather than just one. As for Honor and Cultivation's choice, they may have decided that sacrificing the peoples of Roshar was worth keeping Odium contained. It was a balanced system, before Odium got involved and Honor and Cultivation had to weigh the pros and cons of having a serial god killer trapped in close proximity to them, but unable to hurt any others. We'll have to assume that no Vessel can combat the Intent of its Shard forever, beyond maybe affecting the Intent a little. I'll have to admit, I hadn't considered combing Odium with another shard, but that's a totally viable (and frankly better than what I had come up with) avenue to contain it too. As for Odium not being directionless, he can be focused through being combined, but until that happens we have to again assume that His Intent is to hate anything and everything he is opposed to. If, say, Rayse had achieved his dream of being the only Shard and now controls the entire Cosmere, I think Odium really would shift gears into Passion, Not by literally changing Intent, but once there is nothing left to hate, the Intent will start amplifying whatever other emotions are there. As Brandon has said, no one word can entirely capture the essence of an Intent, and the fact that Odium isn't Hatred is indicative of the fact that Hatred isn't the only thing that Shard's Intent embodies. As for Taravangian, I think he would, if for nothing more than to improve his PR (public relations) as propaganda seems like something Todium would do. Technically, we don't know if binding Odium to Roshar is what was the final blow that Splintered Honor, so it could be that Honor (being the Shard of Oaths and Binding) found a way to trap Odium there, and Odium then Splintered him. Acting against him would definitely count as breaking the deal, but again, One against Fifteen, with no experience using the powers yet, Odium wouldn't have very good odds. If he attacked the others in self-defense, at most he could take down one or two before the rest get him. They could just Splinter him, Fifteen Infinities against One, or they could bind him and risk having adverse, if weakened due to being spread out, effects on themselves. You do have a point though. As for Shards supporting him, I think there may be a slight misinterpretation there. Autonomy helped him against Aona and Skai, but she had vested interests in Sel, given the fact that Jaddeth is all but confirmed to be an Avatar of hers. The misinterpretation comes with Mercy. I don't think it's ever explicitly stated (unless you have a source, which I would love to see if you do) that Mercy was fighting alongside Odium, just that the Odium, Mercy, and Ambition fought. I always interpreted that to mean something along the lines of Mercy and Ambition were going to settle together like other Shards and Odium attacked, or that Odium attacked Ambition and Mercy tried to help her. Given the connotations of Mercy, I just never considered the idea that Mercy was helping Odium instead, but I still think it's the unlikeliest of the three possibilities unless Brandon has said otherwise. And Endowment, her response strikes me more as the opinions of a traditionalist than someone who has a legitimate reason to be angry. She says it's a pity about Aona and Skai, her tone doesn't seem to convey any malice or dislike, just resignation that they did something stupid and paid the price. There is genuine malice against Ambition, but I think that may be because of something Uli Da did or who she was before Ascension, possibly discrimination or prejudice against one of the Sho Del, maybe mixed in with apprehension of her Intent, considering Odium thought Ambition was a threat. Endowment just sounds snobbish and opinionated, Autonomy was looking after her own interests, and Mercy is unconfirmed to have been supporting Odium. No concrete proof any Shard was against Odium's victims, other than Endowment's dislike of Ambition and Autonomy doing what she always does (meddle and colonize). Excellent point, I could totally see that playing a factor in some Shards turning a blind eye to Odium's rampage; He was definitely dangerous, but he was taking out other potential dangers too, and wasn't growing any stronger by stealing their power.

That's Roshar after a homicidal (Shardicidal?) Shard comes into residence and makes a mess of things, triggering a generational, eternal war. Before Rayse comes, from what we know, the Dawnsingers were happy and living lives to their fullest. Honestly, a fairly simple but very plausible theory. Some Shards (like Odium, although I think that particular Shard's current instability is in large part due to Rayse's power lust and wish to be the only shard) just can't work alone, but would make great co-shards. Ruin is a prime example of this. All he wants is destruction, so how could anything constrcutive ever come out of that? His pact with Preservation shows that Ruin can be channeled into something positive, but Preservation might have just been too antithetical to Ruin's Intent for that to have ever worked out. They can create together, sure, but Preservation would never be happy until the things they made could last eternally, and Ruin would never be happy until everything they made was destroyed, so they would both only ever be half satisfied. Their amalgamation as Harmony demonstrates this well, since once these powers are merged, their contrary Intents make their Vessel impotent. Ruin and Cultivation, however? They both represent change in a way. If they worked together, they could very easily settle on an evolutionary pact. Constantly in an "Out with the old, in with the new" cycle, quite literally a survival of the fittest situation, only taken to the extreme. I could see a planet with those two very quickly becoming the most advanced civilization of all. Both Shards would be happy, Cultivation, who herself acknowledges that for improvement to be made, things need to be pruned and guided, gets Cultivated, sophisticated life, and Ruin gets to claim the vast majority of said life, constantly devouring the weak and chasing those that adapt further and further into advancement and progression. Particularly on a planet like Roshar, where there's a massive, pre-existing natural cataclysm that could be harnessed to achieve this goal. If the two were combined, the Hybrid could end up being just "Change", which is one hell of an exploitable Intent, since it has no limits or requirements past "The status quo must change", which can always be for the better. As for a Shard like Odium, he's a little harder to contain, but again, I think this is in large part because of Rayse. If a different Vessel had taken up Odium (one who didn't have the specific plan of killing all other Shards), they could have been paired down with someone like Mercy, or maybe even Endowment, who could temper him and direct him to more constructive directions, like Preservation with Ruin. But I do think that Odium is a bit of a special case, given his particularly directionless Intent. He doesn't just think it's his duty to bring about entropy like Ruin (which can be applied in beneficial ways, like providing incentive for evolution), he actively hates everything and everyone. Even if he got paired down with someone with a complementary Intent, the Shard would eventually overpower the Vessel and end up becoming evil (though not necessarily Shardicidal evil, just wanton destruction evil). I think the best course of action would have just been for the 15 other Shards to collectively bind and imprison Odium as soon as he Ascended, trapping him like Preservation does Ruin, or how Honor evetually does to Odium himself. Odium never gets a chance to get used to the power and how to use it, so he's unable to fight back. If the other 15 do it right, they should be able to manage it without any harm to themselves, since they would be spreading any potential damage out between themselves. Or even better, make him vow to never take any action against another Shard, no matter what. With 15 Shards threatening to Splinter him if he doesn't, He'd be forced to agree.

Thats better

Depends on the Ideal level of the Knight, because the Spren is at varying levels of becoming one with the Knight. For 5th ideal knights, the Spren might just fuse together too into a superspren, or if the ideal level is lower they could remain apart. Forging was my basis for this idea, I wanted a Knight Radiant with a Forger-like power and a more supporting role, kind of like the Edgedancers. As for the implausibility, Sapient Fusion would be locked till the 3rd or 4th ideal, and they would get better at keeping them together with each subsequent Ideal. If the Heartsinger is consciously trying to hold the Fused (not the Singer kind) together, they might last longer, but it would drain Stormlight faster. Their entire theme is restraint after all, and that requires a strong will. That was my inspiration for having the platespren be Angerspren, since those are specifically dangerous. The red smoke is a great touch!

Thanks! It's a fun idea that I had, and I wonder how it would affect people who are very similar. Could you Fuse two people together into one permanently? They would retain both sets of memories, and both personalities and such, so they would be similar to the two original people. Also, I edited my previous post, is it better now?

The last bit makes sense, but the rest are practical limitations rather than the Feruchemical immunities running out. You could become as fast as you want, running that fast just also happens to burn you alive because of friction. Atium, it's because there's not enough attribute stored to reverse all that aging, but I suppose there is an actual limit in that you cant become younger than a baby. Iron, god knows how that works at this point, but you still don't get crushed under the weight, so indirect limit? Pewter, it becomes useless to you, sure, but you could still tap even more strength. As for lower limits, those are there because there is only so much attribute you can draw from yourself (You can only store as much weight as you weigh) and because you would kill yourself by storing too much. The only hard evidence there is for a tapping limit is Atium, and that's a special case because you can only get so young. I think the upper limits for Brass would really just be the melting point of Brass, since that's the practical limit for that metal.

You can, but it's gonna be really difficult because it would instantly burn you. You could maybe get away with Brass if you start storing really quickly, but otherwise, it's practically impossible.

Knight Order: Heartsingers Surges: Adhesion (Spiritual) + Transformation True Spren: Restraintspren Plate Spren: Angerspren Resonance: Combining the Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical aspects of multiple objects into one, into something better. For example, combining a wooden plank and a lump of refined metal into a hatchet, or some threads into a length of rope. It could be used to fix things, like a broken pane of glass. Where it gets interesting is when you apply it to people. Using a massive amount of Light (and preferably next to or inside a Perpendicularity), a Heartsinger could combine two people into one temporarily, combining their powers, abilities, skills and all, but how long it stays in effect depends on how likeminded/complementary the people were, and most people can't be combined for more than a minute. Ideal theme: Learning and embodying Mercy and restraint, making the best out of bad situations. First Ideal: LBD/SBW/JBD Second Ideal: "I accept what was and is, and will look towards the future" Third Ideal: "I will forgive and aid those who deserve it, even those I loathe" Fourth Ideal: "I admit that there will be those who cannot be forgiven" Fifth Ideal: "I will seek the betterment in everyone, and lead the lost back into Light"

Maybe, but considering the melting point for Brass is lower than that, you'd probably lose your Metalminds and die of the heat before getting to that point. I don't think there could be an upper limit on the immunity though, because that opens some weird avenues for the other Feruchemical powers. Could you tap so much weight you crush yourself instantly? Tap so much breath you over-oxygenate and die?

Darevil nicely parallels the previous Twinborn the Trickshot (A-Steel, F-Zinc), so I could imagine the two being a Wax & Wayne type of duo. Mindwhisper is an unfairly cool name. Like Alder said, a very good combination for a hand-to-hand martial artist-style person. As a side note, I just thought of something. Brandon has said that Firesouls could potentially hurt themselves by compounding. Could this be because The Firesoul could heat up an immense amount, cause their surroundings to become unimaginably hot, then stop tapping and get burned from all that heat? I've always thought that all the burn-at-a-touch superheating objects thing might not work because the Feruchemy only ever makes you immune to its own effects, so you could end up burning yourself from the heat of the object you're making hot, but always rationalized it away with the fact that as long as the Firesoul themselves is hotter than the object, entropy would keep the heat going towards the colder thing. But if the Firesoul stops being hotter, what then?

Sorry you feel that way, good luck finding books you like more! And as for other books, maybe try some of Brandon Sanderson's other books? It's not for everyone, as your experience with MB shows, but they are great books, all things considered. If you want similar books, I think you really might like Mistborn Era 2, the 4 books in the Wax and Wayne series. They're everything MB 1 had, but even better! You'd have to finish MB 3 though, or read a summary of what happens in the end for Era 2 to make sense Edit: Just so you know, Era 2 takes place 300 years after MB 3

No problem, I'll look through the Arcanum and see what I can find

Sounds familiar, but I'm not sure. Do you have any sources?

1. Ah, alright. We had a conversation about this after that message was posted about using Identity to access Metalminds in the Twinborn Combos thread, and we decided that it might actually be possible through some finagling, we just don't have enough to go on right now to decidedly say whether or not you could (Although it does seem to lean towards no) 2. So, Compounding is no longer possible with Hemalurgy in Era 2, so it's entirely possible they just couldn't get a Feruchemical attribute by Burning a Metalmind. It's unclear whether not being able to get a Feruchemical charge by burning extends to (Unkeyed) Metalminds made by others, but at the very least it applies to Metalminds you make yourself. Also, for Metalminds you make yourself, you wouldn't need to Unkey them, since they would already be Keyed to you. Potentially, Metalminds made by a Hemalurgist might not be able to be burned for Feruchemy by natural Allomancers/Twinborn either, depending on what the mechanics of the No Hemalurgic Compounding end up being. Hope that clears it up!