Windrunner

I've always seen the Oathpact in terms of an honorable duel. Odium's eventual goal is to destroy all Shards, so he is the only one at his power level in all of the cosmere. Honor obviously wants to stop that so he's challenged Odium to a fight. Since we know that Odium and quite likely Honor aren't native to Roshar it seems to be a sort of a neutral ground they agreed on, with Cultivation possibly acting as a moderator. The Oathpact dictates the Rules of Engagement which bind Odium, and Honor of course has to follow them too, because to break them would be to defy his intent. They allow the giving of certain weapons and abilities to their underlings, the Heralds and Radiants as well as the Unmade and Voidbinders. It would be in charge of all aspects of how much the Shards could help their minions. However the Heralds broke their part of the Oathpact, not returning to Damnation (Odium's Shardworld?)to be tortured for eternity. This allowed Odium to attack Honor directly and kill him. There are two problems with this theory. Firstly, why would Odium agree to a duel with Honor, when he could apparently kill him with straight up force once the Oathpact ended? Maybe Odium's power was tied up elsewhere, or killing other Shards is difficult for him? The other inconsistency I see with my theory is why this honorable duel would actual solve anything? If Odium lost he could just say "Oh well" and kill Honor anyway. My only idea is that a Shard's power is somehow tied to or maybe supplemented by their people and magic users, so if they were all killed the Shard would be diminished. Oh and by the way, there's no mention of anything called Dawnplate in The Way of Kings. There is regular Shardplate and Shardblades, as well the Heralds' weapons called the Honorblades. The Dawnshards are mentioned, but no one knows if they're swords or something else. Did you mean one of these? Anyway Dawnplate does sound epic! It would be a good name for the Herald's armor, except I'm not sure if they have any.

I'm fairly certain that the artifabrians are nowhere near being able to replicate Plate and Blade. I think it mentioned in the books how they managed to make half shards, those round shields, but they thought they were taking the technology the wrong way. I think the Plate and Blade could only be made for Radiants. One thing I think is that Shardplate may actually be made of metal. It's being strengthened by the investiture from Honor's shard, but once the power runs out it becomes fragile and breakable. This is similar to something from another cosmere book. Elantris spoilers On the other hand Shardplate may not be made of metal. It can be regrown, which makes it almost seem alive. What I really want to see is someone trying to repair damaged Shardplate, it may give us some insight into how it works.

Okay this is a question that's been discussed a bit on the Urithiru thread. Syl refers to herself as an honorspren. I believe that it would be odd for her to be the spren for an Order who's attributes are protection and leadership, when she just represents honor in general. So my belief is that honorspren is the name for the group of the ten types of spren that bond with the Radiants. So my question is: Does the term honorspren mean just the spren the bond with Windrunners, or does honorspren refer to a subset of spren that includes all ten spren types that bond with Radiants? Was that question clear? If not I'll try to explain it better later.

I don't have any idea. However as much as you think that people being able to bond with all spren would be messy, I think that it would be just as odd if every spren bound with people who exhibited attributes for their Orders except the Windrunners. Protection and Leadership don't have to be Honorable. Just because you're protecting someone doesn't mean they aren't evil, the same with leading bad people. For me it makes way more sense. I'm going to add this question about honorspren to the Ultimate List of Questions for Brandon. Maybe eventually we'll get an answer. Also, I'm totally cool with this discussion getting off topic. The best discussions flow all on their own. However, if any admin thinks we're to off-topic it would also be great to have this thread split.

I think uylssessword is right on this. As I understand it the Soulcasters are just altering matter and atoms, but I don't think they would be able to convert it to pure energy. That would be pretty scary.

This is a good idea. Another possibility is Sazed just gave him an atium Feruchemy spike. Several of the Inquisitors had one for unknown reasons, that's where Marsh got his. Since Sazed was somehow able to save all the Inquisitor spikes and make them into earrings (using kandra) I think he could easily have gotten one to Demoux.

I understand what you're saying here, it all makes sense. However, since I still firmly believe that Honorspren is actually the name for the subset of spren that bond with Radiants (every order) then your explanations don't mesh with what I think. The fact that Nohadon uses the word Honorspren implies to me that spren, other then those that bond with Radiants, could form the Nahel bond at some point. The way I see it, it would be weird if the spren of every order except the Windrunners bonded with humans that shared their attributes like Shallan bonding with a spren who is attracted to truth because Shallan wants to tell the truth and be straight with Jasnah. But why would Kaladin, who is an Order who's attributes are protecting and leading, bond with a spren that is just attracted to Honor in general? It makes more sense to me if Syl is actually a protectionspren, or leadershipspren, which are one of ten types in the overarching group of honorspren (including Shallan's truthspren). However I could be completely wrong on this, your belief makes sense too. Elantris & Mistborn Spoilers

Eh, it's a bit of me reading between the lines and some speculation. I'll start with the speculation. We know that the Shard responsible for Surgebinding is Honor, and that bonds with spren are what give people Surgebinding abilities. Syl says that she is an Honorspren, which to me seems a bit unbalenced. The Windrunners get a spren that represents the whole of Honor's intent and the other Surgebinders get lesser spren? It seems odd to me. Shallan's spren is almost certainly a truthspren. (that may not be the actual name) To me truth seems an honorable thing. It made me think that all the spren of the Knights Radiant represent some facet of Honor. These are presumably linked with the attributes listed in the Ars Arcanum. The whole collective group of spren that bond with the Knights Radiant would be referred to as the honorspren. This all may not be true, but without it the second part of my statement makes no sense. In Dalinar's vision, Nohadon mentions that a man named Alakavish was a Surgebinder, who's Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom then any ordinary man. Then Nohadon says, Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren. (I'm paraphrasing here) If my speculation is correct then this implies that other spren could once have been bonded with. So somehow they constrained the magic system, so only certain types of spren could be bound. (This is all before the Way of Kings was written thus, pre-Radiant as well) I could be totally nuts about all this but I really think only one group of Radiants having Honorspren seems weird. What do you think?

I had the same thought as you Espeon, and it made me sad to think of Demoux leaving his wife behind. But I think that if she died, Demoux would be courageous enough to put the good of the cosmere before his own happiness. I think he would keep on living if he believed that he was helping to accomplish an important goal. Since there are no Mistborn and, presumably, no Atium Mistings anymore, very few people in Scadrial would be able to pull off the compounding Atium trick, so Demoux is probably honor bound to look after his world since no one else can. (As for how he's storing age I have no idea. Maybe Marsh saved him another spike) Anyway, Ireally don't think Demoux is actually a kandra in the TWoK scene. Brandon wou,don't have confirmed it to be Demoux if it was actually him. I see that as a downright lie, and I've seen Brandon get evasive about secrets, but I've never seen him lie about his books.

I just realized this quote mentions the Ideals. I imagine Nohadon saw the Ideals the Heralds represented and wrote The Way of Kings, which allowed people to discover which Oaths would make them Knights Radiant. The only thing I don't understand is why people can't bond with spren other then honorspren now, while they apparently could in the past.

This is the only quote I could find regarding the Ten Fools. I noticed the black piper quote the same as you and just assumed it described one of the Unmade as well. I wonder how this person is seeing this Unmade? Is he looking into the future or seeing the Unmade waiting in Shadesmar?

I think they must deflect though. As I understand it the deflection is caused by the bullet moving between areas where time is passing at different rates. We know that bendalloy and cadmium speed up and slow down time by the same amount since they're able to cancel each other out. I don't know precisely how much they do so but for ease lets just say bendalloy makes time move 10x faster in a bubble and cadmium makes it move 10x slower in a bubble. So when a bullet enters a bendalloy bubble it speeds up 10x. That is exactly the same thing that happens when a bullet leaves a cadmium bubble and it deflects then too, right? So I am fairly certain that bullets do deflect while entering a bendalloy bubble, but I don't think it would make it to much harder for Wayne to dodge bullets. They only deflect a tiny bit and in bubble that are 5 feet wide at most that isn't much difference in where they'll end up. As long as Wayne isn't standing too closed to where the bullet enters he should be fine. Am I making sense, or did I miss something?

This confused me too. After I re-read TWoK I think I got it figured. Before Nohadon people bound with all sorts of spren apparently, not just Honorspren. (which I think is the name of the group of Radiant spren, not just Syl's type which I think is probably a protectionspren or something like that) Nahodon realized that people needed beliefs to and oaths to follow, some rules. So he wrote The Way of Kings and I think the Radiants formed and somehow confined the magic, so only bonds with Honorspren could be formed.

Does anyone know when the hardcover RPG version is coming out? I haven't bought one myself but I want to know more about the Feruchemical Table of metals. I'm curious about the its structure and I desperately want to see the Triangular Feruchemy symbols! Does anyone know if Brandon will sell copies on his site, or if he has to wait because of some contract thing with the Crafty Games people?

Hey Goradel's Nephew, I hope you weren't offended by people not believing your idea in the Urithiru thread. If its any consolation, I had same idea myself and I still like it a lot. My main question is what would you build a city in the Cognitive Realm out of?

I think that we're interpreting the quote differently. The way I'm reading it is Terxim has a party in Veden City but first he wants to go to Kholinar to talk about the tariffs through Urithiru with Tivbet, who can presumably do something to reduce them. I think you're reading it as Terxim wants to go to Kholinar to talk with Tivbet but has to pay tariffs in Urithiru on they way and so he's complaining about it. Am I correct about how you're reading it? I can't tell which one is the right way. However in my opinion, the fact that he "insisted" on talking to Tivbet, and then talks about tariffs implies that he wants to speak about tariffs. However it can be read either way. The idea that it costs money to make Oathgates is speculation, as you've admitted. I see you're point of view but I still think that it makes more sense to build Oathgates to every city. Its not like every airport in the word only has one terminal and they all send you to the same place to be rerouted to a different destination. In addition to that we don't know that Oathgates are linked pairs, they might be able to connect to any Oathgate on Roshar. Also since the Radiants are charging tariffs to use the gates they could build a few, charge tolls/tariffs and then have plenty of money to build more. Why do you think sending everyone to Urithiru would simplify toll collection and monitering traffic? People could buy one direct ticket to their destination instead of buying one to Urithiru and then buying another ticket in Urithiru to their final destination. One toll is easier to collect and process then two, would you agree? If you were monitoring traffic the work wouldn't be any different at all, in my opinion. You can just find out where people are going from their departure Oathgate if they can go direct. If they're in Urithiru the process works the same way. Do you agree with me about tolls and monitoring? If not please reply, I love to hear from others points of view.

I don't think that the Terxim quote actually implies that he went through Urithiru. I doesn't say he went there, just that the tariffs there were unreasonable. It doesn't mean you're idea is wrong though, I could be the one misinterpreting the quote. I don't think making the Oathgates all go to Urithiru would really be necessary to protect them. Those teleporting Radiants could easily destroy gates before the Voidbringers could capture them. (Unless the gates aren't physical gates?) As a matter of fact I don't think making multiple teleportation gates leading straight to your capital city is a great idea, but that doesn't mean that they didn't. I don't know that Nohadon is actually walking from Althela. He walks from Abambar which isn't marked anywhere, so it could be in Alethela or it could not be as well. Elantris Spoilers This is a good idea, but it raises the question of why you can't just build more gates? It doesn't make sense to just link from one place to another. What if Radiants garrisoned one place had to get to another? Going to Urithiru and then somewhere else would be a waste of time in an emergency

Jasnah says the city is abandoned, you don't have to take her words as facts though. I posted this above. I don't know that only females have the innate Soulcasting ability. I can't think of any reason that that would be. I'm still sticking with Shinovar as my best guess for the location. Maybe on another continent in Roshar? I don't know why all the Oathgates would have to go to Urithiru; if they can go there they can probably go other places. They could just tax direct transports from one place to another instead of sending someone from one gate to Urithru and then from Urithru to the destination.

I like this a lot! One idea I had is that Ruin was possibly hedging a bit, and making sure that if Vin did take up Preservation, that he would still have eternal servants under his absolute control to use as tools while he and Vin contested for control of Scadrial. He didn't realize however that Vin would be able to sacrifice herself to destroy Ruin.

I was thinking today about mysteries from The Way of Kings, and I realized one that had received very little attention is Urithiru, the mysterious home of the Radiants. So I decided to compile a list of Urithiru mentions in the books so we could all discuss where Urithiru is and why its so important. All the page numbers are from the hardcover version of The Way of Kings. So the Radiant home base is Urithiru, or at least its where the new Radiants are chosen. This is just a guess but it fits what we know about Urithiru. A city built by no man? Maybe by Honor perhaps? The fact that Urithiru is thought to be a fable means that it's real for certain. After all, the Voidbringers are the subject of folktales. What kind of city can't be gotten to by foot? We might be finding this city soon. Navani can translate the Dawnchant, thanks to Dalinar's ravings. Also might not be Urithiru but it makes sense. Jasnah is very interested in Urithiru. Jasnah must have a good idea where Urithiru is if she's so confident that its not in Natanatan. Urithiru appears to be at some sort of crossroads if goods have to be transported through it. Who is the announcer? Maybe one of the singers of the Dawnchant? What is the direct method? Unlikely its Travel since I doubt all of Nohadon's family were bound to the same type of spren. Okay, that was long. I have two ideas where Urithiru is. One is Shinovar, since no outsider has been there since forever, and its in the west. It also fits with my idea that Shinovar was where the first humans on Roshar arrived; they would need a city to live in, perhaps one made by Honor since he's not a "man" anymore. The problem with that is Shinovar is kind of a backwater, so tariffs through a city there wouldn't matter too much. My other idea is Shadesmar, since Jasnah has been to Shadesmar and seems to know where Urithiru is. The problem with that is that no one would be transporting goods through a city in Shadesmar, if building a city there is even possible. I heard someones idea that Urithiru is on one of Roshar's moons, but that idea seems to have the same problems. Anyway, it seems to me like Urithiru will have to be found at one point or another. If it still has the lost classical works, because its been undisturbed for so long, then it could be an invaluable source of knowledge to the characters. It might also hold a Dawnshard if the quote above is actually Urithiru Hopefully the Dawnchant holds the answers, or at least the location. If anyone else sees a quote referring to Urithiru tell me please so I can add it to the main post. What does everyone else think?

Wow... I just wasted an hour of my life finding all his posts in the TWG archive, and I think my IQ has dropped a few points. My favorite part was when he got banned, and someone mentioned that UtopiaGreen01 had made a new account, UtopiaGreen02, and then the next post in the topic was by UtopiaGreen03. I really almost couldn't believe he was for real. On the flip side I think it's a real credit to this forum, the only online forum I'm active in, that I never knew such a person as this existed until now. While people here can disagree, they're always respectful and usually have something interesting, or a new insight to add to conversations. I've never seen anyone start so many useless topics here either. 17th Shard is a great community. Edit: Realized I accidentally said Seventeenth Shard instead of 17th Shard

I agree with Zas for the most part, my only question being how would the carapace of the Parshendi be used by the kandra? I have no idea if they'd be able to attach something like that to the exterior of their bodies, and I doubt that they would be able to grow their own. But the whole red and block/white skin would probably be easy for kandra, they can do human skin, transparent, and hair as well.

I agree with you here, I'm virtually certain that those with Devotion are those that are taken by the Shaod. One thing to consider though is that Shuden, who is Jindoeese, and his family live in Arelon, and Shuden is actually at least the second generation to live there, although I think it could be more. I think the reason that the sDNA of the Aonic people mutated so quickly is because Aona's shard was looking for a people to use it's magic, similar to how Preservation was looking for a successor, and found Vin. As for paired Shards, I think all Shards have a partner, but that partner does not necessarily have to be their opposite. The books talked about how Ruin and Preservation actually complemented each other, despite the fact that they were opposites. This makes me think that Dominion and Devotion (I'm sick of saying Aona's Shard) are paired as well. They're not opposites but two ways different ways to inspire loyalty, or get someone to follow you. I also think that Cultivation and Endowment are paired, they both are different ways to take care of someone or something.

Sorry for backing up so far, but I just had a cool thought. People have theorized that Dalinar belongs in Order 8 Resolute Builder. Has anyone else noticed that Dalinar feels nausea, while killing Parshendi, which is destructive and the opposite of builder? He is also at his most uncertain, because he doesn't know if he's going crazy, and uncertain is the opposite of Resolute!!! Does anyone know if Kaladin feels sick while not protecting/leading? Maybe this has something to do with his depression, because he's bonded to Syl, but not following the attributes of his order. In an unrelated note, I don't know that its for certain Honor is Shattered, though it seems very likely.

I don't think that Yolen is the Tranquiline Halls. My guess is that the Tranquiline Halls was Honor's original Shardworld. We know that that humans are in fact the ones who aren't native to Roshar, so presumably their original world was lost to the Voidbringers, and Honor brought them to Roshar. I know that the main Dragonsteel sequence will take place on Yolen centuries after the events of the first two books. Does anyone know when the main Dragonsteel sequence is chronologically, in relation to the Way of Kings? Because if that series is set afterwards, and presumably isn't dominated by Voidbringers, then we know for sure that the Tranquiline Halls isn't Yolen.