Firesong

I don't remember this, I only remember us seeing the other side for a short scene where Time Bubbles were irrelevant. Can you try and show the passage?

They just repeat the same pattern, but change the number of lines under it. 10s have 1, 20s have 2, etc. This is until a certain point where it changes. Some time before 80. In world the reason is obvious, it becomes inefficient to keep adding more lines after a certain point. Hundreds have 1 line with 2 dots (dots being zeroes). And then you place the 10s and 1s place over that. So if you look at 127, you see one line with two dots, and above that is two lines, with a 7 over them. It is a very elegant system, in my own opinion.

By crust I included the Mantle and all of that. I wasn't using a strictly scientific terminology there. Just saying crust is easier than Crust, Lithosphere, and Mantle. My bad for not clarifying better. There would be various lakes and rivers across the plates, and some would definitely empty out into the core, yeah. But it isn't as common as you think. This can be explained through a little addition (that I came up with right now) that the edges typically have an upward ridge that, while not too hard to go over, does prevent rivers from flowing up them. Thus a river can only empty out in areas where this ridge does not exist. In rising and falling, maybe like, around a hundred kilometres, maybe two or more. This, however, moves very slowly. You would be able to feel a difference between rising and falling periods, but it is not that extreme and most people there have adapted to it to the extent that they don't notice it that much. The most noticeable part is when a plate moves next to another plate (or even within a pretty wide radius), where one can appear noticeably tall or short depending on the difference in elevation. Yes, there is an updraft and you can see the glow between plates. But I don't think the updraft would be strong enough to carry a human body. To be honest, I didn't even consider tidal forces, but I guess that they would pull on them a bit, maybe this makes the rising speed a bit faster than the falling speed as you simultaneously have the core pushing up on it and the moon pulling on it. And also, yeah, large moons tend to become tidally locked, I just really like the idea of a moon that looks drastically different from each angle, and also does actually rotate in comparison to Earth. It seems like it would make a cool effect. On your idea for Feruchemy, yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. Taking that. And also, yeah, the system is relatively new (older than the Shattering in main canon, but just assume the Shattering happened more like 50,000 years ago in this canon) and made by Autonomy, this would not be able to naturally occur. Due to how planets tend to form from matter condensed into a sphere, so having one have so little actually area in the outer layers makes no scientific sense unless some entity caused it to happen. Anyway, thanks for the compliments, I am glad you enjoyed.

I really don't get their point, as she still doesn't believe in any true gods. Just beings with greater-than-human power, which is objectively true in the cosmere. To reject that (knowing what she does) is to just be delusional. She also does not see the Shards as worthy of worship, further cementing that she does not truly think of them as gods in the traditional sense. She was definitely using the term hyperbolically. I feel bmcclure is arguing in bad faith, honestly. Like, atheism would take on a very different meaning in a world such as the cosmere than it would in our own world. As there are greater powers, what matters is how you think of and conceptualize these powers and interact with them. The way Jasnah interacts with them is: She accepts that they exist due to there existing undeniable proof of their existence. She does not reject this proof as her atheism is based around her observations of reality, she is a scholar that wants to find the truth, not one who blatantly rejects reality to justify their own worldview. She does not think of them as worthy of worship Under most definitions, this makes her see them as not truly being gods. There are of course exceptions with evil gods, or the Itelmen faith, but for the most part, gods are defined by worship. Something she refuses to give as she does not think they are worthy of it. She still rejects ideas of organized religion. She feels that they entities they worship do not actually exist, and are just misunderstandings of non-god entities. She continues to reject the idea of a capital-G God that controls reality and exists beyond it. As she has not found evidence of this. Therefore, she is an atheist. The world she lives in simply forced her to reconceptualize the exact manner in which it manifested, without completely compromising her ideals. It manifests as a mere acknowledgement that beings beyond humanity exist, but not that gods or God exist. Basically, it is more complicated that just "she thinks Shard exist? She isn't an atheist than." Ideals and worldview are very complicated things.

Totally understandable, sometimes we are just busy.

Alternate Autonomy: Another one done in a few hours, not the most pleased with this one. I like all the ways I worked in 7. But I feel that the culture isn't as developed as I want it to be. But I also feel I have some interesting ideas in here. (for honesty, I did edit this a few times after posting, to add more to it) It is most definitely one of my more scientifically infeasible planets. But I tried to find all the excuses I could to make some level of sense. But most of it is just, a wizard did it. Hope you all like it and give good feedback. @alder24@Underwater_Worldhopper How do you two feel about it?

Trust me, it happens from time to time (not as much as spam bots on the forums tho). I don't know why.

We don't really understand how there here was when he talked to Kaladin. It isn't entirely clear yet, so we don't know how safe it is to be there. Even being there the way he was was dangerous for him. (also, my goodness wiki trolls are so annoying, just coming in randomly without an account and deleting half a page. They really need to get a life, lol. Just undid some trolling on the Kaladin page)

My interpretation, is it is just about beings that only have a "physical" form, as in, Cognitive entities that are physical in the CR. They aren't able to be hurt in the same way as physical beings. Like, Kelsier felt pain just because he thought he should, not due to actually experiencing pain, and his body would have experienced no actual damage. I do believe that now that he has a physical form, Hoid wouldn't be able to hurt him.

He theorized it was due to him being dead. You shouldn't take that as 100% accurate. My theory was it was just due to him not having a true physical form, so he wouldn't be able to be truly hurt by him attacking him like that.

I was rereading the previews for SP4, and it left me wondering, what Shard is the Investiture from? We know it is able to bring forth growth in plants, it is used for various forms of technology, and it is a bright orange (iirc). My thoughts at the moment, is that it has to do with Invention, with the heavy focus on advanced technology and using it to power the growth of plants, which I feel fits with the ideas of creation and growth associated with invention. All we know for certain is whichever one it is, it isn't there any more. But his wording seems to imply that there once was one, and part of its Investiture is still in the sun. But at the same time, I don't see what connection the Ember People would have with Invention. Maybe in that it basically turns them into machines run by Investiture? I do not think it would be Autonomy, despite both Investing stars, due to the fact that it doesn't seem to act like anything we have seen from them before. \ Leaves me really curious about what it might be.

I am confused on your interpretation. She still seems very intelligent and is trying to learn more and find the truth. I didn't really notice much of a change. And a lot of the information she is trying to get out of Hoid is stuff she couldn't have learned naturally. She doesn't have any resources that would let her properly learn about other planets as the Shattering and etc without somebody else telling her. She has been able to deduce a lot of different parts through her own intellect, but not a lot of the more specific things.

Yes, the cosmere follows ideas of animism, so everything has a spiritweb/soul, even Cognitive Shadows. No exceptions are currently known.

Anyway, as I said before, I am getting tired of this argument, we aren't ever going to come to an agreement and this is moving more towards the realm of headcanon and fanfic than sourced evidence. Maybe a mod should move this to the entertainment section? Anyway, Imma be going now. Have fun.

Again, this is literally all headcanon you are pushing as fact. You have provided no evidence for any of these claims.

The biggest part was just wondering if we should use the AA Table as an image, or keep using the WikiTable.

I am not sure if we should keep the page background in the table, edit out the background to just be the coin, or to just upload the entire in-work table instead of a wiki table.

I am fine with the full Ars Arcanum not being uploaded (albiet annoyed, but its fine), but we definitely do need the map. Especially given that we already have it on Coppermind, just, in Spanish. Which, while not a big downside to me as I speak the language a bit (not enough to edit the Spanish wiki, before you offer), it doesn't fit on the English site. But also, good that we are allowed to include partials, so that we can complete things like the Lak page, which lacks the Lak images.

I looked through the art pages again, and found it, it is 100% artistic license. The art was clearly made, long, long after the Expulsion to the extent we can't take it as 100% accurate to what had occurred, as it is dated to after humanity spread across Roshar and created Urithiru, and after the Iriali migration.

I am also not sure what image they are talking about. I remember no such image. Or enough elaboration on how exactly in works in a way that allows us to make detailed theories. But iirc, he said the portal to Roshar was Spiritual in nature, and it was also a very exceptional thing, helped by a Bondsmith and a Dawnshard (we can assume at least, given they used Dawnshard Surges in their destruction of Ashyn, and they managed to get it to Roshar, so I assume they used it in the portal). Yup, looked through it, the artwork does not exist.

Yeah, I also really want to get the updated map up there as it made a few changes to canon, and it is a lot prettier than the og. Like, we have the Spanish version up, but not the English, it seems. We also would benefit from getting images of the different Lak, to add to the Lak table.

I am also of the opinion that it was intentional as he was clearly using various forms on purpose, like the sand and such. So I feel that if a few were totally intentional, they we can safely assume they all were. We could totally be proven wrong, I just think it was intentional. (even if he was absolutely losing his **** over it)

As I said, I don't really want to discuss this anymore, especially if you are going to blatantly ignore the text provided, like Brandon saying the leaking of Stormlight and Breath Auras are the same, and the annotation that the Breaths of children are stronger while the elderly have weaker ones. Tip for you on debates, try to actually address the citations made by the person you are debating with, show why those citations do not support their thesis. You ignored the primary things that I used as support for my own thesis, that being the annotations and WoBs. Which I feel are some of the strongest points in my favour. But again, you seem really set in your own interpretation and are absolutely refusing to even humor the idea of being wrong, which is something I did when looking at your argument. I assumed it was true, and tried to look for evidence supporting that validity, and also looked at what that implied for the system at large. For example, looking at how it leaks out (confirmed by the Auras and by WoB, which states leaking Stormlight and releasing an aura are the same thing just with different forms of Investiture) then we would have to assume for it to never reduce in quantity, while also releasing part of itself constantly, it would inherently have to contain an infinite amount of investiture as A - B = A with a non-zero B only holds true when A = ∞. Furthermore, we see that the breaths of adults are weaker than that of children (which fits with my own thesis that they let out part of their Investiture over time), but due to the fact that there is no set whose cardinality is between the set of the integers and real numbers, meaning, that children have ℵ(1) as it is strictly more than adults (who would have to have ℵ(0)), this also applies to the gap between ℵ(1) and ℵ(2), the Breath of Returned is substantially stronger than that of Children, so it would have to be ℵ(2). Therefore, if you hypothesis is correct, Returned have ℵ(2) Investiture, more than uncountably infinite. But that it is also equal to 5000 standard, full-power breaths. Therefore it goes that 5000 * ℵ(1) = ℵ(2). This violates the fact that there for any infinite cardinal λ, there is not cardinal κ such that λ < κ < 2^λ. This would require that 5000 * λ = 2^λ. This does not hold true for infinite cardinals, it only holds true for ~16.3159 and ~0.0002. It also implies that finite arithmetic can bypass infinite gaps. Furthermore, Susebron is more Invested than a Returned, so he would have ℵ(3) and say that 50000* ℵ(2) = ℵ(3). Nightblood is more Invested than Susebron thus would be ℵ(4), and Shards are more Invested than Nightblood at at least ℵ(5). This would also mean that Ruin has ℵ(5), and was still weakened by having his body split into Atium, which means that ℵ(5) - am < ℵ(0), where m is a finite number describing the mass of atium that exists. For this formulation to hold true, a, the amount of energy within atium, would have to be infinite as well (in the magnitude of ℵ(5)) so this means that each piece of atium has infinite energy, and is essentially the entire shard. It is a massive chain of dominos. You also seem to misunderstand what Brandon means by atium reforming in the pits, it is connected to a large sum of Investiture which leaks out and forms into the Atium. It is not every last sliver of the energy of Atium going directly back into the system with 0 loss whatsoever. That is your own headcanon. And as stated by others, you are extrapolating way too much on this, just because the Father Machine goes on for a long time, does not mean it will go on for an infinite amount of time. As stated, Stars for instance can burn for billions of years, but still stop eventually, thus are not PMM. And on portals by Surgebinders, that is literally a power you made up. They can make miniature Perpendicularities into the Cognitive Realm, but that is about it. I feel it isn't the best argument if you have to make up abilities in order to justify it.

Also, I have to add, I do not think that the FM would have gone on forever. I simply said that if it did, it wouldn't be a PMM still, as it is still gaining power from an outside source. You say "it attracts the Hijo which it uses for power", and it does. But the thing is, that is calling in on an outside system for power, therefore it is neither closed nor isolated (and isolated systems are most relevant for PMMs) Think of this, imagine a machine that is powered by a bunch of cranks. What the machine does is it sends out a signal that magically convinces people to go to it and turn the cranks. This would not be a PMM, despite attracting those that crank it for power, as it is receiving that power from an external force, not from itself. The increasing its own energy comes from it simply causing entities from outside the system to come to it and be absorbed and made into batteries. Therefore, it is not a closed system, ergo would still not be classified as a Perpetual Motion Machine. Again, I feel like a large part of this argument comes from you not entirely understanding what a Perpetual Motion Machine is. It is not simply a machine that can go on forever, but one that "Can do work infinitely without an external energy source", which is something that the Father Machine has, which disqualifies it from the title, even if it was actually able to go on forever, something I don't believe it would have been able to do anyway. The Father Machine is an Open System that allows the exchange of energy and matter. So, even looking at it from your perspective, wherein it can and will go on forever, I cannot in good faith call it a perpetual motion machine. Anyway, I am just getting myself worked up and upset, we aren't going to agree with this, so I feel like dropping it after your next response. Arguments over my passions (or more serious stuff I won't bring up here to keep it relatively light-hearted) always make me feel sick to the stomach. Also, sorry for my bluntness, I don't think you are stupid or anything, even if I am rather annoyed. I just sometimes say things I shouldn't, I am usually much better with that, so, sorry.

... How did you read Warbreaker and not see the constant references to people with Breaths leaking Investiture? I am genuinely baffled, tbh. It really beats you over the head with it again, and again, and again. This talks about how Breaths can go weak or be consumed, how they release an Invested aura that brings forth changes to the environment, etc. Again, I feel you are flat out ignoring the text because you simply want to believe certain things. Like how you want to say that every person with Breath has literally infinite Investiture (they would have to if they do not lose any Investiture at all, given how they constantly let out an aura of Investiture), even though it has been displayed that they are finite Splinters, and that they are measurable and also leak out over time (thus giving people the aura of leaking Investiture that all people with Breaths have) This is a reflection of how most forms of Investiture leak out over time as human bodies are poor vessels for Investiture, this also matches the way that the aura is something that only humans have to worry about, while Returned don't, as their bodies are better vessels for it (though they can choose to display it, and they lose their Breaths through other ways) I feel it would be weird to be like "humans aren't a good vessel for Investiture, neither are Nalthian humans as they are the ones who leak out an Invested aura. But also they actually don't and the Investiture they leak out is actually not Investiture leaking out," it all feels so messy if we assume that. On Fort's tablet: I feel that you are ignoring Occam's Razor in assuming that this wasn't charging it, and was just an arbitrary Command given to it. I feel the more logical explanation for this is that it requires it in order to charge itself, and to assume it was just something random and arbitrary, especially when it lines up with how we see Awakening work in general, to be strange. Lifeless also do run out of Breath over time, Talking about how Lifeless do use up their Breaths. It also is not "when they decay to uselessness", that is your own headcanon, it simply talks about damage making them have to be Awakened again. It is not as extreme as your interpretation posits. Again, Breaths do not contain infinite Investiture. Those animated by it slowly use it up. It is rather consistent about this. Even Nightblood reflects this in how it constantly tries to take in Investiture whenever it can, as that is what keeps it going. One factor I feel helps in not using as much of the Breaths, is that they absorb colour for fuel, this I feel is used as a form of energy that makes them not have to use up as much of a Breath as normal. So, it has been confirmed a lot that they actually are used up, they contain only finite Investiture.