CryoZenith

It was mentioned on the Shardcast episode about the Set. That's basically what I went by. You're right that there aren't book chapters or WoB's saying it per se.

I agree with your conclusion but not necessarily your thought process here. Like, I agree that the tuning fork method probably doesn't work on Breath the way it works on Lights, but I wouldn't necessarily say "they would've found out by now if it did." Because we have an in-world example of a society who definitely had strong economic and logistic and military motivations to experiment a lot, arguably even more pressing motivations than the Nalthians did. Namely, the Alethi. Yet at the end of the day, for all their experimenting. the Alethi only found out about the tuning fork method by... being told by the Thaylens. "Someone would've noticed by now" is a dangerous and stunting mindset to have in science. The process of scientific development doesn't cleanly transition new inventions in monotonously ascending complexity. Sure, there is a positive correlation between how complex an invention is and how late it is discovered, but it's not strict at all, because creativity and ingenuity themselves are NP problems. To give a real life analogy, there are ancient Earth cultures that invented the bow before they invented the wheel, even though on an abstract level bows are more complex "devices" than wheels are.

The hypothetical I was exploring wasn't a Forgery that would make Hoid think he's unrestricted/forget about the restrictions. Or a Forgery that disabled/overrode the Dawnshard. That obviously wouldn't work. I was considering the thought experiment of Hoid Forging his *personality* in such a way that his perspective on what constitutes causing harm became much more narrow than his natural perspective. And I was advancing the hypothesis that *even that* wouldn't work completely. Which is a non-trivial hypothesis. Basically, my current guess about how the restriction works is that rather than it being 100% based on his perspective/intention, it is heavily based on what he knows concretely, but not heavily based on his opinion on harm (or, in other words, that the restrictions care about his epistemic limits, but not about his ethical views). So, let's say that in the abstract, the restrictions are of the form "Don't do X. Don't do Y. Don't do Z.". I think the way they would work is that Hoid can, for example, do X, as long as he doesn't know that what he's doing is X, but as long as he knows that what he wants to do is X, he is not allowed to do it, even if he personally disagrees that X is harm-causing. That's what I mean by hybrid. This guess is compatible with both Hoid being surprised that he's able to do things he mistakenly thought would be restricted (such as the kicking Kelsier scene), as well as Hoid being able to eat real meat as long as he is mistaken about its provenience (as per WoB).

See, Hoid's restriction is a really interesting blend between perception and objective fact, rather than being only one or only the other. If it was purely based on his perception, then he would never get surprised by something he thought himself incapable of doing but ended up being capable of. Which... is precisely what happened in Secret History. There isn't a one to one correlation between his restrictions and what he thinks his restrictions are, so his opinion can't be the only factor. Speaking of, here's a cool question about Hoid. We know from WoBs that he can eat lab-grown meat. We also know from WoBs that he can eat real meat as long as he genuinely believes it is lab-grown meat. But would he be able to eat real meat, KNOWING it is real meat, as long as he genuinely believed that eating meat wasn't causing harm? Basically, to drive the point home with the question above, would Hoid be able to Forge himself into a personality that completely ignored his restrictions? I don't think so. Which is why I think his restrictions are a hybrid.

Why? If that's true, then humanity is doomed.

Cryo abruptly Transported himself entirely into the Cognitive, wanting to take a good hard look at the statue. In there, the statue seemed completely normal. Returning to the Physical, he scooped out a handful of sand from one of his pouches, and brought it closer to the burning statue. It didn't light up. He collected a little piece of rock that was shaved off while Nameless was sculpting, and tried to light it up. It was completely fireproof. Whatever was happening here, it was neither mundane, nor magical (or, at the very least, Cryo considered, not magical in any way that had anything to do with Investiture). He suddenly felt very off, like he was the protagonist (or, perhaps, even worse, the side character) of a creepypasta.

Cryo peered into Shadesmar, trying to see if there were any windspren or gravitationspren bound to the statue. Finding nothing, he was immensely confused, and lit up a cigarette.

Granted. Your bane is that you emanate an antimemetic field around you which makes all merchants phobic about buying gold from you. I wish to become the Nightwatcher's Bondsmith.

Cryo just thought this was an overly complicated method of making a deathtrap.

Yup. TPBM knows someone who dislikes Brandon Sanderson books. (like, not someone who heard about them but didn't read any, or started reading one of the books and quit early on, but who has entirely read through two or more Sando books and still genuinely dislikes him as a writer)

Would you light Dan on fire for money? No, both swords as well has oranges would do that job better.

Quick tangent, but the city doesn't create the Elantrians. It only enhances them. Elantrians existed before the city existed, and they were the ones who built the city.

The spear thing works because Raysium as a metal has the innate magical property of being conductive to investiture. Think of the Shanay-im humming as an on/off switch rather than the source of the leeching. The Navani and Moash scene is admittedly a bit more interesting, but you do have to keep in mind that Moash was easily dealing with Navani before Navani bonded the Sibling, requiring Raboniel to buy her time. If the primary thing that removed Moash's Odium-mental-protections was the hum, then Navani could've handled him without bonding, which didn't happen.

Yeah, I'm making a proactive guess that that wouldn't work. Or, to clarify (because the two examples you gave might work differently), I think it's moderately unlikely that humming the anti-preservation tone protects you from a-zinc, and I think it's very unlikely that humming the anti-preservation tone hurts the misting's ability to burn zinc.

I suspect that anti-Investiture is harmful or at the very least annoying to all beings made of investiture, even those of mismatched type. Like, you would require the correct type to outright destroy or "annihilate" an investiture-based being, but even the offtypes would do something. So even though Nightblood is probably not purely endowment-type investiture anymore, endowment-type anti-investiture would probably still bother it. But whether endowment-type anti-investiture can hurt Nightblood is light years away of a question from whether the antitone of endowment can hurt Nightblood. The latter is silly even on a hypothetical level.

I think it's a *bit* of an overstatement to say that you can disrupt investiture through singing alone. It's technically true but there's a lot of missing steps like extracting the investiture, enclosing the investiture in a closed space, isolating that closed space from outside tones etc. If you just, no other extra steps, start singing an antitone, even with perfect pitch, you're basically doing the equivalent of nails on a blackboard to invested entities. Not much more.

The thing about war is that war is messy. Hypothetically, you could capture an individual Fused and kill them in a way such that they're trapped and can't reincarnate. But you'd have to do this one by one and in controlled conditions, so it wouldn't have in-combat utility and would be too slow of a process to actually be a gamechanger on the large scale.

I know, but the Set and Trell involvement in the set is over 50 years old.

Dayum that's a downer. 5/10

Would it be cheating to say I would be a Returned? If yes, then let's go inkspren. How much money would you be willing to pay for Sak, if he was for sale?

If I had to summarize my life in a sentence, this would be that sentence. (this might look like a non-answer but it's actually an answer. my life is *for the most part* discussing/debating loopholes, technicalities, sophistries and rhetorical flourishes. and hopefully I'll pass the Bar soon and keep doing this for the rest of my life, because it's FUN) How to draw inside the lines?

Instant ban just add glitter.

"Well, I come from Mandrell bearing these artifacts of great import." Cryo spoke in a mock-solemn tone, presenting his pack of cigarettes, a lighter and a thin strip of cloth. "The cigarettes give a short-term light buzz and clear your mind. The lighter... lights cigarettes. And this is a blindfold. Since I have perfect memory, I can take a look at a room, blind myself, and navigate it with no issue. You'd be surprised how many magics require eye contact." "Oh, by the way, don't hand me a gun. You... don't wanna know how hard I flunked marksmanship in uni. I'm a hazard to myself and others. Mostly myself."

"All this talk of right and wrong gives me a headache." deadpanned Cryo, lighting up a cigarette. "Honestly, guys, after visiting tens of worlds and memorizing eight hundred ethical systems, there's only two things I'm willing to bet money on: One, that any ethical system which is internally inconsistent must be wrong; two, that if two people who share identical terminal goals disagree on morality, at least one of them must be wrong. That's that. Y'all can't do better. But your attempts to do better, the things you set in motion by bottlenecking reality into the possibility space you think is preferable, you think is right, in a manner, is good for one thing: writing books. And books make money. And I like me some money." Cryo blew smoke rings, pensive.

Granted, the Investiture within you is so dense from all the Breaths that you collapse into a black hole. Since you're not alive anymore, the Nightwatcher can't actually give you a bane. I wish to become better at poker.