Letryx13

I could see it going either way. After everything she did to try and stop Odium by replacing Rayse, I could see her just giving up and waiting for him to kill her. But then again, if that's all she was going to do, she might as well have just stayed on Roshar. On the other hand, if she still wants to try and fight, then it makes sense for her to team up with Harmony, or possibly the other shards. Harmony because he's the only true rival to Retribution now, or the other shards because she knows them better. Of course, considering how the other shards just ignored Odium until he became Retribution, she may not want to waste time with them and try and help teach Harmony how to use his power better.

I may be misremembering, but I thought the power of the shard was what accepted Dalinar was right, not Taravangian himself. Either way, Taravangian knows that he wouldn't sacrifice his family for what was "right" despite chiding and belittling Dalinar and Jasnah for not being able to do so either. That makes him a massive hypocrite.

I could almost agree with that, except at the very end, Taravangian knows that Dalinar was right, even if he can't admit it.

That's why I'm saying he needs to do the damage before realizing he broke his word. He needs to attack or kill someone from Kharbranth without realizing he did so. That way, it's not a conscious decision.

It's not set in stone, but it's a likely possibility. I thought that Odium would be dealt with in book 5 and that Discord would be the next big bad. I'm less worried about that now, but it's still a possibility. That prophecy is the strongest evidence that Sazed will become Discord. The problem with it is that the prophecies all seemed to revolve around Sazed's ascension to Harmony, and I think Sanderson confirmed that the prophecy of the Hero of Ages was already resolved.

That's been the biggest issue with the theory since the end of RoW. He probably can do exactly that, but if he were tricked into breaking the promise before giving himself permission to do so, then I think he'd be in violation of his old deal. It's a gray area, I admit, but that's part of what makes me think it could work. Exactly. It was a formal agreement, and that means it should require formal permission from Taravangian in order to break it.

I've believed from the moment I heard that line that Rayse saw Adonalsium through the spiritual realm in that moment somehow. I'm one of the ones that's posted about it before, and after WaT, I'm more convinced than ever. I can understand the Fused talking like that, but it seems really unlikely that Odium would see it that way. We never saw from his perspective, but he seemed almost was arrogant as Taravangian, and he doesn't seem to see his minions and followers that way. Any victory is his, in Odium's mind, whether he achieves in personally or through subordinates.

I didn't remember the exact line. Interesting. It sounds like it happened more than once, so not just the time between Vin and Ati as Preservation and Ruin. Maybe Odium and Devotion? Or Devotion and Dominion?

I wasn't exactly disappointed with the prose, but I didn't much care for it. Sanderson definitely changed up the character's way of speaking in this one, and it did feel a little inconsistent with the previous books. I can understand something like that happening after a lengthy time skip, like we'll have between books five and six, but for the most part the stormlight books each occur within a day of each other. It gave me a weird feeling that they talked so differently in WaT.

Nohadon mentions it in his chapter with Dalinar while they're having bread. He mentions how one of the shards was specifically about preserving was why the planet wasn't wiped out in that case. Preservation was probably the only individual shard that could force a conflict like that without such a cataclysmic event as a result.

Re-reading the exact words, I realize another issue is that he agreed to spare the city as well. So that could be a problem. Though, I suppose a city is mostly its people, so there is some nuance to that. As for him keeping the people he spared a secret, that's probably to keep Cultivation or anyone else from using his family against him.

Something I found particularly interesting in WaT was the interlude where Todium destroys Kharbranth. At the time, I thought he was allowed to get away with it because of how it was explained in the interlude, that since the city had been given to him as part of his deal with Rayse, then that meant he could do what he wanted to it. I even hoped it would be brought up in his debate with Jasnah (I bet Fen would have loved that). But then in the end we find out that he moved everyone in the city to the spiritual realm, which got me thinking. The deal between Rayse and Taravangian was one of the ways that I thought Dalinar could beat Todium. If Odium's champion ended up killing Dalinar's champion, and if that person had been from Kharbranth, then that would be a violation of Taravangian's agreement with Rayse, which likely is bound to the power. I even wondered if Kaladin had been born in Kharbranth, thinking he might end up as Dalinar's champion after all. The chapter in WaT where Hoid explains how shards are bound by such agreements encourage me in this area. The agreement between Rayse and Taravangian seemed formal enough that the power would still be bound by it, despite the new host. One old issue with the theory still stands, that since Taravangian is now the vessel for Odium, he could ease the restrictions of that deal. But if he could be tricked into violating that agreement before realizing he was breaking it, could it still hurt him?

I don't know if I agree with that. Taravangian thought he'd set up the perfect scenario, where no matter what happened he ended up with everything. But not only did Dalinar manage to find another option, a callback to their conversation about a chapter in the Way of Kings, he managed to force Taravangian into a situation he didn't want to be in. Yes, Taravangian won most of Roshar and his freedom, but the attention he got in the process will likely cost him in the end. Agreed. Frustrating in a lot of ways, but monumental. I wouldn't say Taravangian is in shambles, but he's definitely not in the position he was hoping for. All because he wants power far more than he's ever acknowledged. I doubt very much that Cultivation wanted this. She was hoping that Taravangian would be willing to make the right choice and end the conflict, then tried to force him to make the right choice. Most likely she still has some cards to play, Lyft for example, but this isn't what she was hoping for.

It's true that Taravangian got nearly everything he wanted, freedom, more power, control of most of Roshar, but he also gained the one thing that he really, really didn't want. The attention of the other shards. It's why I consider it more of a draw than an outright win for Taravangian. One thing Taravangian has in common with Rayse was that they like to be patient and play the long game. Taravangian was planning to bide his time a little and build up his forces on Roshar for a while longer before unleashing them on other worlds. Now, not only is pretty much every other shard out to get him, but he can't take his time to come up with the perfect plan. It's like the scene where Yanagon, Adolin, and May were playing towers. Yanagon was the strongest at the start, but still lost since the other two teamed up against him. Except in this case, there are ten other players in the game. And they all know he's coming for them. Exactly. The best possible outcome would have been to bind Odium completely; trapped in one place and unable to act or send minions and forces out to other places. I had a theory on how that could happen, but that's out the window. Barring that, they need to find some way to check him. And despite the fact that he'd killed three shards before getting to the Rosharan system, none of the other shards were willing to do much against him. Now that he's tied for the most powerful being in the cosmere, they can't ignore him any more. That's why Dalinar's move, painful as it is, was the best possible decision. True, Ruin and Preservation balance each other better, but based on the ending with Retribution, I think it's safe to say that the power of Honor is still developing self awareness, despite having a new vessel. That will likely play a huge part in the story going forward. And depending on what the power grows to be, it could end up being a huge hindrance for Taravangian. Dalinar likely planned for that.

Odium being free alone might not have gotten the other shard's attention. They didn't see fit to try and stop him after he killed Ambition, Mercy, and Dominion. True, they were more comfortable when he was stuck on Roshar, but Honor didn't manage to bind him to that system until some time after he came there. We see that in the chapters from Tanavast's perspective. On the other hand, now that he has twice the power, they can't afford to ignore him any longer. It's like when May, Adolin, and Yanagon were playing towers together. Yanagon was the strongest at first, so the most logical strategy was for May and Adolin to team up. Dalinar sacrificed himself to create that situation. Only in this case, there are ten other shards for Odium to deal with.

I like this idea. It's possible that Nohadon simply managed to get Dalinar in and out of the vision because Taravangian is still new to the power, but I've posted before that I think Adonalsium is still alive. We still don't really know what scared Rayse so much when Dalinar spoke his third ideal. According to Cultivation, she'd only seen him frighted one other time, presumably when Rayse and Tanavast clashed over the shattered plains. I'd still very much like to know who the "we" is in "We killed you! We killed you!", but I think he's referring to the sixteen original vessels slaying Adonalsium. If a Nohadon like character makes a spiritual realm vision for someone else in the future, I think it would fit.

Finished listening to the audio book this morning. Almost nothing I predicted before it came out ended up happening. The only thing I got right was that the capital cities of countries ended up being important. Overall, I'd have preferred that Odium were just taken care of in this half of the series and a new threat be the problem going forward. I suppose technically a new bigger threat has emerged now the Odium is Retribution, but still.They definitely got some things right. A lot of good call backs to earlier books, Kaladin and Szeth in Shinnovar, the dead eyes coming to save Adolin, Lyft discovering she has potential as a warrior, and finding out about Shallan's mother. But possibly my favorite aspect of the story was Dalinar managing to get the better of Taravangian in such an unorthodox way. I assumed that the contest of champions combined with Odium being required but unable to return Herdaz was the way to be Todium by winning the contest and forcing him to break his word. I was convinced of this theory all the way up to the interlude with Dienno. I don't think the Mink died in that chapter, so there's a chance we'll see him again, but time will tell. However, having Dalinar manage to turn the entire game board on its side and escape the trap Taravangian set was very well planned on Sanderson's part. A lot of people consider this last book to be Odium's win. Understandably so, since he has been freed from Roshar and his forces and allies control most of the planet, but I don't see it that way. I would say that Dalinar got the better of Taravangian, similar to how he got the better of Sadeas at the end of WoK with his shard blade. Taravangian now has more power, but that very power has become a liability. Dalinar knew that Taravangian wouldn't be able to resist taking up more power, and played him perfectly. And Dalinar managed to make the one thing that neither Odium ever wanted; the spurring to action of the other shards and forces in the comsmere. Overall, I'd call the end of WaT to be a draw. It's a loss for Roshar, but a loss for Taravangian too. The Radiants and their allies are separated, but there is peace between the nations, for now. On the other hand, the other shards are (finally) taking action, in fact Autonomy probably made the move against Harmony that she did in MistBorn era two in order to prepare to deal with Retribution. And just because Taravangian now holds two shards, that isn't necessarily a good thing for him. Harmony himself both admitted and proves that combining shards doesn't always lead to greater power. And if the power of Honor continues to gain more self awareness and comes to a more mature understanding of what honor is, then Taravangian could have as much trouble controlling is as Rayse did with the shard of Odium.

Totally get where you’re coming from. This is definitely my least favorite of Sanderson’s books so far. And I hate that we are going to have such a long wait with this cliffhanger. Having said that, it’s not completely a win for Todium. It’s a loss for Roshar, but the fact that Dalinar’s sacrifice move has gotten the attention of the other shards makes it more of a draw for Todium than an outright win. I also agree with you, but I think it’s fair to say that Dalinar got the better of Taravangian. Not only did he manage to escape the trap Taravangian set for the contest, but he managed to trigger the one thing that Taravangian didn’t want to happen. The same thing Hoid had been trying to achieve since the Way of Kings. A mobilization of the shards and other forces in the cosmere.

Sorry, haven't been on the forum for a while. Won't happen again.

So, I've been listening to Rhythm of War in preparation of Winds of Truth, and after getting to a chapter about secret spren, I had an interesting thought. I've often wondered what will eventually happen when the magics of different worlds start mixing, as I'm sure most readers have. And something that occurred to me is that secret spren probably have something that is similar to what Seeker allowancers have. And that led me to the obvious question. Could a copper cloud protect against secret spren? My general thought is yes, it could. Unless But what do you all think? Is there a WoB on this?

Your will matters not! You can not hold me back if he speaks the words.

As has been pointed out by several others, there's no real chance Taravangian manipulated Lirin or Kaladin; the timeline just doesn't fit. The only possible way Taravangian could have influenced them would have been to set the stage for Rashone to be sent to HearthStone. But even the Diagram couldn't have predicted things accurately enough for that to work out. Too much of that was a matter of chance. Although I do think that Lirin's and Kaladin's connections to Kharbranth are not coincidental to the story. But I suspsect that relates more to the contest of champions. And as far as Shallan is concerned, I'm not sure what influence Taravangian could have had on her, or would have even wanted to. Her family has been connected to the Ghost Bloods for some time, and while it's now known that she bonded a spren when she was a young child, that information appears to have been completely contained. Her father went to extreme lengths to conceal that, if he even understood it at all. As I recall the flashbacks of WoR, the Ghost Bloods were trying to use Shallan's father to make a play for power in Jah Kaved. But considering that Taravangian was planning on creating chaos to seize control of the country by assassinating the king and crown prince, it doesn't seem likely that he would have had anything to do with it. It's possible he was aware of the Ghost Bloods' plot, but it's unlikely he participated in it. And considering that the Soul Caster broke as a complete accident, it's difficult to see the Diagram predicting Shallan setting out to find Jasnah.

Adolin is an EdgeDancer in personality if not in power. Sanderson has confirmed that Adolin is the kind of person that Maya would have wanted to bond, and I strongly suspect that's part of how he connected to Maya to partially restore her mind. Having said that, I do see a lot of overlap between some of the orders in terms of compatibility. Supposedly, the ancient StoneWards had a kind of rivalry with the WindRunners over who made the better soldiers. And it makes sense that people who could fit into one order might fit well into another one, depending on which type of spren found them first. So I don't think it unreasonable to say that Adolin would make a good StoneWard too.

Agreed. It would be almost impossible for him to have set that up, and it wouldn't have benefited him regardless. I do think the Rashone affair will come up again in book 5, but it will deal with Kaladin and Moash, and Moash's motivation for everything he has done.

That was my interpretation too. The Night of Sorrows seemed like when the Everstorm arrived, heralding the True Desolation.