JohnnyKaizen

As I've been commenting on other threads, I keep remembering things that the Stromfather told Dalinar, that are blatantly untrue. I think it would be fun to list out every time we can find a lie the Stormfather told. I also wonder if there is anything in the lies that could tell us something about Roshar/SA/etc. Feel free to share. I'm going back to TWoK soon to go through the series to have as many, "Oooooo now I get it" moments as I can.

First and foremost, this is absolutely the funniest thing I've ever read in a WoB I am sitting here picturing someone like Lift, arguing to Nale that all of the Skybreakers need to follow the Pirate Code at see, and him just crumbling. She'd have them out there yelling "ARG!" and "AVAST!" and it's truly a beautiful thought. So I thank you for that! Having read this (it's well put together and reasoned) I am having a realization. I have been spending a lot of time on threads about Cultivation and her planning prowess, and I honestly am seeing a lot of similarities in character flaws between Tanavast and Taravangian. I believe Taravangian to be far more intelligent than Tanavast, but both of them seem to make decisions with the believe that it's their godly right to do so. And, when they make a mistake they either ignore it or hide it. I am wondering if Cultivation chose Taravangian, in part, because he seems to share some similarities to Tanavast, and if she intended to cultivate Honor, then that would be another layer to her planning, that I'd not noticed before. Honestly, Tanavast the person confused me by his decisions. I think that what you've written here is on point, but it's difficult for me to understand the why of his decisions.

My problem is the centuries long comparisons of minority people to monkeys and apes. It's a very well documented racist trope. Listeners and Singers aren't sapient animals. Their physiological forms are different from humans, but they are genetically compatible to mate with humans, as we have whole nations of humans with Singer ancestry. They are people. Would I have a relationship with a Neanderthal? As long as the previous conditions stated, were met? Yeah, why would that be a problem? And to take this nonsense argument to it's conclusion, would I date one of the apes from Planet of the Apes? Again, yes. Why would that be an issue, and why would you go so far as to state your blatant disgust at a very relatable part of this series, as well as what others have told you, they are comfortable with? Whether intentional or unintentional, your example was bigoted on its face. It also wasn't helped by your entirely unnecessary commentary of how the romance between humans and singers, "made your skin crawled", indicating how disgusted you are at the thought of inter-species romance. You have no valid point here, other than you don't like the concept, you're disgusted by it, and you're apparently bothered that others have more imagination and openness than you do. You do you, but don't pretend that you've made some grand point. Your point is simple, subjective, reductive, and unnecessary.

This kind of take is amazing to me in a lot of ways. I would absolutely date a Singer/Listener. Comparing them to sapient ape's is problematic on it's face, but aside from that, does any bring this up about Star Trek/Star Wars/Doctor Who/etc? These shows have, and usually the people who are pointing out how disgusting those relationships are, are not the good guys. Inter-species romances have been depicted in literature and on-screen for the better part of the last century, so why are Listeners/Singers/Amians/Sho-Del suddenly in need of discussion of how disgusting they are, and made comparison to apes? It's mathematically impossible that humans are the only sapient species in this galaxy, much less the universe. Would I be willing to engage in a romantic relationship with someone from another part of the universe? If the attraction is there, and we're both actively consenting, then of course I would. If someone else's love and affection "makes your skin crawl" then feel free to ignore them and keep your disgust to yourself. Other people's love has nothing to do with you, and your bad feelings about it are nothing but reductive. They add nothing to someone else, other than, "Hey you! I feel bad when I think about you, and so you should feel bad about yourself."

When Cultivation moved against Kharbranth, it felt so out of character to me. Yes, she could have been pruning something (the city, Taravangian, Odium?) but all in all, I thought it was a weird move for her. Small on the scale of a Shard, and a bit petty, and also an underestimation of how far Taravangian would/will go to prove that he is right. And now...now I am thinking about her "turning away" from Taravangian's destruction of the city. Killing your own family and every person who was under your care is a terrible, nasty, despicable thing...but is it enough to frighten/scare/horrify an imortal Dragon who killed Adonalsium, took up a peace of its corpse, and has lived over 10,000 years? The only way I could every justifiably say yes, would be if destroying Kharbranth was so against the Intent of the Shard of Cultivation, that she and the power might have felt compelled to look away. But what Taravangian was doing was in line with the Intent of Cultivation. He was pruning away a vestigial connection so that he could grow more fully into his new role as Shard bearer of Odium. So the ultimate answer is no..Cultivation had no reason to "look away" with both her own sight and the sight of her Shard. More and more, it just feels like she played Taravangian like a fiddle and then peaced the hell out of there right when Taravangian thought he was winning, so that he would keep on thinking that he was winning and not dancing to the tune that Cultivation is playing for him. I could be entirely wrong, but it really does feel like Cultivation has been, and still is, nudging Taravangian exactly where she wants him to go? Yeaaaaaaaaah. When you put it that way, my Sandersense tingles to all of the very heavy lifting that "difficult" can be doing there. Because ultimately, difficult is not impossible. So by the rules of Brandon, all he actually and definitively said was "Usually Shards don't do this, but they can."

Considering the whole point of the Oathpact now is to shield all the spren from Retribution's shenanigans, this feels more and more likely, the more I think about it.

I guess that Im confused in that I had thought that investing in a planet or system anchored a shard there. Again, Cultivation was probably making plans to leave quickly for a while in a "just in case" sort of way, but now I'm wondering, was the only thing keeping the three Shards (and their vessels) on Roshar, Honor's binding? There are WoB in this thread were he says that it would be "difficult" for Shards to leave a system they've invested in. I guess I'm not clear how hard is would be for Harmony to leave Scadrial (given that the Shards allowed it) or any other Shard for that matter.

This is, in part, what Dalinar's parting thoughts to Taravangian were about. The Sunmaker's Gambit, which Adolin has also talked about at length. Taravangian is in for a world's worth of bureaucracy, and he lost Azir...which honestly might be the single greatest loss of day 10 in the long term. And yeah, everything you're bringing up here is valid to an extent, for sure. We'll just have to wait for the next time Sanderson gets a Roshar itch he can't ignore, to find out what post Night of Sorrows Roshar looks like.

Which raises the questions, how did Cultivation leave immediately? What did it cost her? Obviously Lift is still Lift, so her magic is still there.

I get why you feel that way, and for many folks, that's absolutely the truth. For me, I've been imagining just what Taln can do for years and years. I was ready to see what exactly he can do. And honestly, seeing what he can do with his bear hands vs what he can do with his shardblade is probably worlds apart. I personally would have enjoyed the on screen introduction to the greatest warrior in the Cosmere, this go round. It didn't happen though, so I'll just have to wait the 6-10 years to get back to it.

Personally, I don't like the existing of a destroyer of worlds. They exist, that's not what I'm saying. But what world would Sanderson be willing to destroy? Scadrial? Nalthis? Threnody? My point being, fighting Dai-Gonarthis would be absolutely of the highest stakes...fail and the planet is splintered/ruined/scorched/whatever. But the second whole worlds are destroyed, what's the countermove that doesn't involve the risk of destroying the entirety of the Cosmere? Dai-Gonarthis needs to be dealt with, but I don't know who would do it?

This thread is tickling my Sander-sense. Brandon has said more than once that Shallan is an unreliable witness to her own past (probably much more reliable now) but he's also said that the Heralds are also unreliable witnesses. All of this speculation, in regards to what Ishar said/did, all happened before the restoration of BAM, and the subsequent cleansing of the madness of Odium. I do think there is more here, that we don't yet know. It feels like we did not get a truthful account from Ishar or Nale, despite them both sounding more lucid than we've been accustomed to, before now. It might be big, or it might be little, but I don't think that it's nothing. I agree that 9 and 10 are important numbers for Odium and Honor, but does that mean that those numbers are the same when they merge? Could 9 and 11 making 20 have significance? I have no idea, because I've never really understood why 16 meant something to Preservation, but 9 for Odium and 10 for Honor? I'm just of the opinion that it has potential for significance.

After WaT, I've decided that the way that Odium/Todium and Honor were portrayed as planning for the future, with their future-sight, is not the same way Cultivation plans. Toduium explicitly talks to himself about how "nearly all the possibilities agree" with whatever outcome he was going for. Taravangian is in love with his own plans, and even moreso as a shard vessel. Even in the Diagram, he didn't explicitly plan for contingencies. He let groups of people try whatever they could, but after a cut-off point, declared there was only one way forward, his plan (which in that case was murder Dalinar, and that worked out about as well as his plans for Dalinar as Honor's vessel). He makes a plan, and then when wrong, decides a knew plan..almost as if he is afraid to admit fault (that's probably not it, but wouldn't surprise me if it was). I'm not saying that's true, but Taravangian is rocking multiple unhealthy mental tendencies that could be improved with 12-97 sessions of therapy per week. Honor was quite similar. Locked him into an agreement of champions, do that, try to win. It's the only way. Cultivation seems (to me) to make plans for the future like roots growing. They don't always follow the most predictable path, they branch and split, sometimes they grow around an obstacle, and sometimes they grow straight through it. Cultivation strikes me as someone who plans for the most likely path, the least likely path, and everywhere in between. Todium becoming Tetribution probably wasn't Plan A...it probably wasn't Plan Z either, but Cultivation being ready to bolt doesn't strike me as panic, so much as- "Ok, this is the reality that is now, which means I need to leave and do the following..." So I feel that the OP is right and wrong. Right in that this isn't a total loss and/or surprise for Cultivation, but also that this isn't a victory for her either. Unless I'm missing something, she did NOT want Tetribution to come into being, but she was aware that it was a distinct possibility, especially with her direct involvement with Dalinar. Cultivation also did NOT want Roshar to be broken and/or destroyed. There's Nothing to cultivate if the planet is a lifeless husk. She set Dalinar on the path to Honor herself, circumventing wishes of the Cognitive Shadow of her former lover. Nobody is going to convince me that she wasn't fully aware that Dalinar was capable of choosing what he did. I don't know that I'd say it was what she wanted, but I will say with confidence that she was well prepared for it.

I've been writing this for over an hour and am at 1800 words and I'm not even halfway done. I'm honestly not sure anyone wants to read all that. I will probably finish writing this out on Word for my own benefit. If anyone wants to actually read a 3-5 thousand+ word reaction, then let me know and I'll send it to you, but it feels like I'd be bogging down the thread to put all of this on here. The TL:DR version is that I adored WaT. I do have some problems with it, but not many, and ultimately most of them can be explained by the fact that this book is 490,000 words and probably would have to be 600-700k words to "fix" the issues that I have. Brandon literally ran out of room. So, I'm more than willing to extend grace in the few places that I was bothered, especially considering he's probably going to write me a dozen or more secret novels in the next decade 5 Stars. I love it.

That would certainly be something!

my word did that make me giggle. I honestly feel, in line with what you've written, that Abidi, and by extension the unnamed, or under referenced, Fused suffer due to lack of context. We know Leshwi somewhat, but not really when it comes to her specific motivations, hopes, and dreams for Singers and Roshar. We knew Lezian's deal, because it was pretty simplistic and straight forward. Raboniel, we got to know pretty well, and to see why she went to the lengths that she did. Finally, we're getting to know Mishram (which was the most pleasant surprise in WaT for me), and will know her more whenever we get around to SA6. But Adidi and to a smaller extent El, feel less than they should be due to lack of information. Though El shows that he is always considering, and in many cases, considerate of those around him..be they Singer, Listener, human, or spren. He doesn't necessarily care about them, but he considers. Abidi doesn't consider much of anything..ever (except when to run and hide because he messed up so badly). And yeah, if I was reading SA6 in 2-4 years, I would have minded the off-screen fight, less. I do understand why Brandon did it, I just don't want to. I'd rather pout a bit because even though it makes sense in both pacing and personal writing style for Brandon, I still waited a decade to see this titan of a Herald cut loose, and didn't actually get to see it. And to some extent, I feel short-changed. Feelings aren't always rational, and I acknowledge that. I'll probably get over it relatively soon, and making this post helps as well. I do hope that we get to see that fight scene as a flashback as well, for both Taln and Ash. Because it's the first time in 4500 years that Taln has had full control of his senses, and it's the first time in at least 1000 years that Ash has. Also the first time in 4500 years that she felt able to fight back, and that's pretty awesome. I love to see progress made by broken people, who become more whole as the take the next step (and then the next and so on) toward healing.

I get what you're saying..but Taln ripping fused apart with his bare hands, while getting stabbed 47 times? Yeah, I think that would have been different. I think I'm mostly bothered because I've known all this time that Taln is the most OP fighter in the Cosmere who isn't a Shard Vessel, and when he got up to crush the enemy, I would have liked to see him do the crushing. It's fine for the most part, but I very much expect some Taln chapters dedicated to him in all his fighting prowess in 6-10.

I had very few complaints about WaT. I really enjoyed it, and I also look forward to going back and rereading SA 1-5 to pick apart things that I've missed repeatedly for 10 years. That said, I've waited a while to see if I would get less annoyed by a particular editorial decision, and I'm not. So, I feel like it needs to be said. Why did Taln fight OFF SCREEN??!!??!?!?!?!?! I have been waiting a decade to watch that man cut loose, and the second he does, the "camera" pans away to Adolin???? Come on Brandon...Why dude? Whyyyyyyyyyyy? Ok. I guess that felt somewhat cathartic. I feel a little better. Thanks for coming to my rant. P.S. I still don't understand why Taln wasn't bonded to his Honorblade, even though it had been taken from him. Shouldn't he have been the main herald who was still bonded to his? In a way, I'm glad that he wasn't, because if that fight had happened with him having his blade in hand, I'd have thrown my book across the room. So at least we were spared that indignity

You are both correct and technically correct, but I will love to hate Taravangian forever and a day, and will gleefully take any opportunity to point out how in love with himself he is. I am still surprised that he didn't have divine trumpets or something on top of the dramatic shift in the Rhythms of Roshar.

I am all in for Sylphrena the StormQueen

I had long wondered why Sanderson spent so much time with Dalinar (and others) early in the coalition thinking/saying something along the lines of "It's SOOOOO WEIRD that Thaylenah is ruled more by the council than the Queen" and then after the battle of Thaylen Field..we never heard from the council again. And while I see what and why Brandon did that now, I'm annoyed by it. Mostly because I expected more from Jasnah..not Dalinar because bless his heart...but I would have assumed that Jasnah would have been in active and frequent communication with the Thaylen Council, and she wasn't. I think that Sanderson did this on purpose to be the cornerstone of why she lost the debate, but it rubs me the wrong way. Because if she had done what I expected of her, Todium would have had a much harder time with his little plan...but that would have complicated the narrative in an already 490,000 word novel and I am mildly suspicious if the debate was, in fact, a wordcount-saving device, but I digress. As I wrote above, Jasnah will be a better person for it, and I'm willing to let it slide whatever Brandon's reason(s). I would have done it differently, but I'm not a world-famous author who writes 4-287 novels a year.

I actually put the book down for the day after reading the debate. Not because I thought it was poorly written, but because Taravangian was already known to be a liar and a betrayer who will throw anybody under the bus if he thinks it will serve him, and then label that bus the "Greater Good Express." And I don't care who good a deal is, you don't deal with a dirty dealer. And nobody is as dirty as !@#$% Taravangian. Also, Odium went out of his way to dig up "secrets" with his god-powers and this was the part that annoyed me, per Jasnah and her character. Jasnah didn't point out or ask for any dirt on Taravangian..since he'd moved directly to character assassination. Even so, Jasnah will learn from this and be a better person in 6-10. Also, I hope Fen enjoys her perpetual night, and someone tells here It's Always Sunny in Azir.

Because Taravangian is the biggest drama queen in the Cosmere and was probably broadcasting that re-branding out an every channel he had access to. It's a wonder he didn't manifest speakers over the head of every sapient being on Roshar to blast "I AM RETRIBUTION" on a loop. But also, what's already been said...Connection let them know what was happening, but even if it didn't, Taravangian would have beamed it into everyone's heads. He'll also probably invent Cosmere crossfit soon, so that he can have something else to tell everyone else about in addition to the fact that he's Retribution now.

Edit: I'm going to write all my thoughts of this thread here to avoid double posting** I pretty much disagree with everything here. Everything Taravangian was going to do as Odium will still be done now, with the exception of him showing up somewhere in person. None of the other Shards cared what he was doing as long as he was "trapped." Now they big care, and will absolutely act against him. Taravangian, specifically, is in serious danger of Odium abandoning him for several reasons, not least of which is Kharbranth. Honor is their own person now, but they don't have the context to see nuance in their Intent. Dalinar set them free and charged them to watch and learn. Honor will 100% leave Taravangian in the future, a wiser and more full Honor. Honor even offered to go back to Dalinar, if he'd do what Honor *thought* it wanted him to do. At this point, I am as certain as I can be (while totally accepting I have been wrong many times, and will be again many times) that Taravangian will end up without a shard, and that Odium will either be changed by Honor, or merged with other Shards to stop it from trying to bring the Cosmere to destruction through endless hatred. Dalinar has, long-term, probably saved the whole Cosmere, and I'm here for it. Also, Retribution is now 70+ years behind his rivals. Well, he the Shard probably isn't, but his mortal subjects are. The rest of the Shards get to move things into place before the Rosharans can move out into the Cosmere as a whole, and that's amazing. Though, I don't know that Honor-Dalinar knew that or not with his expanded capacity. As to did this book change my feelings on the SA. Nope. I loved Wind and Truth. I did have some minor issues with it, but nothing serious/major. I loved it, and I'm super excited for the next few years of other stories. Also, I don't believe brandon when he says he won't get back to Stormlight stuff for--8-10 years I think he said?--because I don't think he's physically capable of going that long without writing something about Roshar. I don't know that we'll get to read any of that before next decade or not, but I don't think he can go that long, based on...well...him being Brandon and writing 5 "secret books" because he felt like it.

I forgot Wit blamed that on Zahel, but Lift also asks, "Why do people keep saying that?" Which read to me like, "No I didn't hear it from him, why do people keep saying that?" or it could be a consistency error.