a Faceless Immortal

Man this got off topic very fast While I definitely have a disliking for Moash, I actually really enjoyed his interactions with the Parshendi and singers and so I think it would be a satisfying plot line if he, while being completely shunned by the rest of humanity for his pretty atrocious acts, finds sympathy in the community of the singers who, like himself, have been manipulated and mistreated by Odium, eventually coming to a leadership position among them and encouraging them towards unification. The only problem I see with this is he's pretty much being pushed in the direction of being incredibly selfish (I mean, he doesn't even feel remorse for killing Teft) and so it would be a very miraculous change in direction to go from where he is to being someone who strives for unity. I think this could possibly be achieved by making Odium get on his bad side somehow (he stops taking his pain etc) and because 'enemy of my enemy' joins with the humans to defeat Odium, I'm just not sure how quickly this turnaround could happen without making it feel contrived. Regarding the casteism (which totally deserves it's own topic), I think this is one of the cases in which Brandon, because of the massive amounts of world building he has done, has a much bigger picture of the effects it's currently having on society in his head than is translating into the stories. Because these books are stories rather than political metaphors a lot of the philosophic quandaries about race (eye color in this case), culture and gender have basically been sidestepped in favor of a more fluid and succinct plot line. I would, however, love a short story/novella about what's going on, either with Lirin and Hesina during their stay at the tower and how their lifestyles contrast with Laral's and the other lighteyes or maybe the members of Bridge Four struggling with being part-time lighteyes?

I want Moash to get a redemption arc just so that he can be killed half way through it.

I could totally get behind the idea of Kaladin saying the 5th oath, doing something super cool and saving a ton of people, dying in the process, but actually being so invested that he just ascends to herald/shard level, and then does some more saving of the world in a suitably awesome fashion. However, I feel it does kind of contradict with his arc, especially since one of his big plot points was accepting his flaws and inability to protect everything, and so dying and/or gaining any crazy level powers could potentially feel way less satisfying than we think it would now because it undermines all of his character growth! Because, honestly, who wants to see Kal commit / attempt to commit suicide for a third time (Chasm, tower, now whatever sacrifice he makes), even if it is for a worthy reason and even if it does end up being not-perma-death suicide. Honestly, I just want ma boy to be happy (maybe his 5th ideal can be 'I'll try smiling more' ?) But also, I can't really bear the thought of Kal being in arc 2 and not being all active and heroic like, so I'm very confused...

I wonder how far this could be taken... Willshaper museum guides anyone? "These ancient ruins have seen a lot of history... Literally" *conjures stone spirit to do the tour guide job for you like a boss* But seriously this is actually a real interesting idea. Regarding the court, are Guiltspren a thing? 'Cos that would make determining the truth a lot easier. Or just get a Cryptic to 'taste' the lies in someone's testimony? So many possibilities.... Thanks for mentioning this

This is a little weird, there are definitely some cases in which this applies, like the ones you mentioned, but others that this seems to have been ignored, ie. Soulcasting Gavilar into stone; using the power of the internet, your average stone has more than twice as much mass per cubic centimetre than the human body, yet the soulcasting is a perfect 1:1. Brandon himself agrees that something funny is up; So maybe it would work just fine? Maybe there may be slight imperfections, but anyways, the idea of soulcasting weapons is still viable, even if said water method doesn't work. Regarding the alloys of gunmetal, soulcasting seems very instinctive when dealing directly with one of the ten essences, and I think it would be safe to say that with a reference they could crack the right alloy fairly quickly. I mean, if Jasnah can managed to soulcast blood that is perfectly suitable for Shallan to use in a short amount of time with no reference to healthy blood, I think copying a metal's percentage composition shouldn't be too hard.

aww nooo that makes me sad lol

Exactly. Another thing I don't think anyone has mentioned (although I only kinda skim read) is the effectiveness that the squires grant Rosharan armies; enough 3rd-level Windrunners could turn an army of regular soldiers into buffed-up soldiers who are practically 1st oath Windrunners themselves. This means that they can breathe Stormlight and get all the benefits associated with that (healing, agility, strenght) as well as use the surges, which puts them at a significant advantage to the general population of Scadrial, who for the most part are just people. The medallions can act as a power distribution for the Scadrians, but they take time to make and require people to devote time to making them rather than training or fighting the war, and can easily be removed or even captured by the enemy, and they run out. I think what this fight boils down to is this: Scadrial has the potential for some immensely powerful individuals; I don't think that anyone disputes that a fullborn who is practiced with their abilities is top of the power ladder, but Roshar has the higher average power level per capita and they have experience with warfare that is just unparalleled by any other group in the Cosmere (there is a reason Odium wants them for his personal army, after all) and so they win in any standard war, unless Brandon writes that it happens otherwise.

Not weird, but I ship Kaladin x Happiness; I'm hoping he finds them by the end of KoW (book 5)

So, everyone seems to be assuming Roshar will need to slowly build up it's industrial enterprises to get to the point where they can mass produce weapons and aluminium and such, and so won't have access to guns, artillery etc; but I think you have looked right passed one of the biggest features of Roshar's magic, Soulcasters. (and don't worry, I have done research this time ) So, one of the Ten essences is metal (number eight, to be exact). This means that, once the Rosharans get a hold of a gun, they just need to; get one of their smart artifabrian / inventors to look at it and figure its workings make a few molds that can be filled with water Then blam, soulcast the water into metal, making all the necessary parts for a gun. For more complicated things that can't be done with water, carving out wood can work just as well, albeit a bit slower. And, according to the Coppermind, 'Items may be able to be Soulcast into aluminum.[8]'. Huh, whaddya know, a very efficient way to produce a counter to investiture that isn't reliant on rare natural resources and huge amounts of manpower! Honestly, I think Soulcasting deserves way more attention than it gets, because to me it seems like the perfect way to produce goods on a large scale. (Unless I'm wrong lol) And, considering how fast Bridge Four was developed (less than a year), I think it's safe to assume that the Rosharan technology level would skyrocket if a war against a more advanced force put pressure on it to do so.

Hmm, let me thin- - Oh wait, nope, no thinking. MOASH! There isn't really any competition...

Thanks @The Technovore :D

Okay, fine I'll give up my theory, since Brandon himself straight up contradicted my theory in a WoB. I should really do some better research and less brainstorming

Yes, I understand that. However, what is Preservation's power? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Preservation made their power manifest through the mists; Vin can draw on them for strength, they caused people to allomantically snap, and they appear to leak out of Marasi and Wax when they use the Bands of Mourning, all of which to me suggests that they are Preservation's investiture pulled from the spiritual realm from the physical, kind of like how the Highstorms, or even Honor's Purpendicularity, is the manifestation of Honor's Investiture. This Investiture makes up part of their atmosphere, and people who have an affinity for that Investiture can use it in Allomancy. I could be entirely wrong, but all the other forms of investiture seem to have limits on them (Highstorm on Roshar, Endowment has to choose your spirit to Return on Nalthis, Birds have to eat a worm on 1st of the Sun or whichever world, Autonomy's power available based on the sunlight, etc) and so I feel it would be rather powerful if, from absolutely anywhere in the entirety of the giganticness of the Cosmere, Preservation would give you magical powers just 'cos you ate something shiny.

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. So instead of boosting everyone's connection to Preservation we are making an artificial connection with the medallions and then providing huge batteries of Investiture to use them I suspect it would be this one Something else I just though of relating to the dilution of the bloodlines: Just get a Radiant who is extremely talented (or maybe not even extremely talented, Jasnah soulcasting Shallan's blood seemed pretty complicated to me with all the blood type and antibodies and that, and she did it with minimal thought) with Soulcasting blood to provide infusions of blood that mimic that of someone powerful, and then hand them out as 'vaccines' against power dilution (not a very plausible theory, I know)

So I know this is a very heated debate and y'all probably don't need any more arguments to be used as fodder against one another, but I have some ideas and honestly can't stop myself from joining in So, something in favor of TEAM RADIANT: Something that was just brought up in this topic, Allomancy relies on two things; the Power (Investiture), and a Key or Gate for that power (metals) As this suggests, there is no power in the metals, which means that Preservation's power (as the mists) is fueling the allomancy. Now, the mists are a localized phenomena like the highstorms, so they could not function on Roshar without a portable form of investiture to use. This means that basically the war is decided by whoever has the most portable Investiture, and whilst medallions could do that for Scadrial (also mentioned in that topic), I think Stormlight naturally lends itself to being transported, giving them an edge. Something in favor of TEAM MISTBORN: I was up late the other night and thought of a truly terrifying assassin; An experienced Kandra with a rifle. This Kandra is a. physically adaptable, able to change shape and use their body to suit litterally any situation, b. not afraid of being controlled by Harmony so could probably be fullborn (limitless spikes?) and c. using a Hemalurgy Rifle "Hemalurgy Rifle?" I hear you ask, "what good would that do?" WELL, it's an easy way to kill a spren/disable a Knight Radiant! Simply; shoot the spren Bullet can become a hemalurgic spike with the right intent Intend for the bullet to steal the Nahel Bond Goodbye Radiant abilities So yeah, those are just my humble offerings in this apparently massive war. Enjoy slaughtering each other!

So, basically, what you are saying is; the Bands of Mourning contained two parts to it; the Investiture, stored in one Nicrosil Metalmind, and then the key to accessing that raw investiture stored in others. Therefore, to use the Bands an individual would draw the investiture in and then use that to fuel the allomancy granted by the bands, with the nicrosilmind acting as an allomantic battery that the people can draw on to fuel their powers. I like this theory, 'cos it's very elegant and logical; Wax and Marasi gained extreme amounts of power because they could pull extreme amounts of investiture from the investiture-battery in the Bands through their bodies, so much so that they begin to leak it (Stormlight question mark?), and then channel it to gain the powers of a (powerful) Mistborn. And so, by extension, you suggest that if the Scadrians could get their hands on Stormlight they could use that to fuel their allomancy, and that if they could breathe in the Stormlight they could use that to fuel their powers? A problem I see with this is that it doesn't particularly solve either problems Scadrian society is having with power dilution, and here is why; a. This doesn't allow for more people to be Allomancers, it simply makes current ones more powerful b. For the people to breathe in Stormlight, they would need to bond a spren, wouldn't they? Otherwise they cannot access the investiture. Or would Preservation light not require a bond to be accessed? Some more, less-important questions I can think of that this raises: If Allomancers are drawing Investiture from the atmosphere, can they function off-world? Other planets likely won't have investiture for free floating around in the air for them to draw on. Conversely, if the background levels of Investiture on Scadrial were higher, would the allomancers be more powerful? How powerful would a Returned Allomancer be? The amount of Investiture they hold supposedly dwarfs most other investiture wielders in the Cosmere... Would an Allomancer bonded to a spren actually be combat-effective? Or would they accidentally burn through their allomantic ability when someone stabs them and their body reflexively heals How does duraluminium fit into this? Or actually, why are metals consumed when burned if they aren't providing investiture and something else is? Does this mean the amount of key used is important? Okay, this question is probably actually important Anyways, thanks for bringing this theory!

Yeah 100% Mow Ash cause it sounds cooler. But I may change to saying Mowsh to make him not cool for .... reasons ...

OoooOoh thanks for the advice I'll be sure to check those out!

Hey y'all I've been kinda lurking in the shadows of this site for a while and I decided it was time to emerge! I'm a pretty keen Sanderson reader and I think his books are fantastic, and so I'm looking forward to discussin' theories and that with all of you

I believe this is the quote @Keepsleep was referring to is this; That seems pretty good evidence of usual bodily function among the returned to me. Now, whether or not this is because they expect their body to and so it does or if it's something a skilled Returned like our old friend 'Peacegiver Kalad-Talaxin-Vasher, Warbreaker the Peaceful, Collector of Pseudonyms' could choose not to do remains to be seen I guess.

Answering the original question, I thought it was simply because if they used their powers whilst surrounded by a large pool of water they would, ya know, electrocute themselves? Like what happens when you drop a hairdryer in a bath...

Good point you raise there @Kahlani. I think @RedBlue's answer to that question is quite likely; after all, you can't have an army of battle-hardened soldiers who haven't seen battle... However, my personal counter argument that kinda further builds on this idea is as follows: is it not possible that the purpose of the Desolations, rather than being to wipe out the humans, was to destroy Honor, knowing that he could never have his human or singer armies until Honor, their god, was dead? Now, we don't particularly know how Honor died, but my personal belief is that a. the Recreance and b. the Herald's 'abandonment' of the Oathpact weakened Honor; he had invested a lot of power into the Knights Radiant and the Heralds, and they kinda just left him hanging, which I believe either temporarily dispersed some of his power, (or just drove him mad because of all the oaths being broken,) allowing Odium a chance to strike at a weakened Honor. Now, why did the Recreance happen and why did the Heralds forsake their duties? The Desolations. I believe Odium's intent for the Desolations was to get Honor's followers to betray him and his Oaths, allowing him to strike at Honor. Now, @RedBlue: Good points, and I probably misspoke when I said that the Tranquiline Halls is purely a fabrication (It's not entirely false, the humans did come from Ashyn and they probably do want to reclaim it), but I believe that Odium does not particularly care about / have as large a focus on the other human cultures on Roshar -- except maybe for any of the Knights Radiant among them -- because he wants and army, and with military might being something that the Alethi specialize in it would be the pretty obvious choice for his focus. My proof for this specific interest in Alethkar is that Nergaoul, the Thrill, was centered entirely on Alethkar. Maybe this is just because he knows that they will be the most perceptible to it, but I think that it's because he doesn't particularly care for anywhere else, and it would take a great deal of energy on Odium's part to influence the religion of an entire continent rather than a city.

I'm not entirely sure about the quasi-zombie cognitive-shadow army... Personally, I took this way more literally; Odium wants to have the living military might of a combined Roshar (Humans and Singers) to kick start his conquests throughout the Cosmere, probably because the magic of the Knights Radiant and Spren make people into absolute tanks who could probably plow through all the other forms of investiture trying to resist them. I think the Thrill is pretty good evidence to back this up; surely Odium made/corrupted/enlightened Nergauol for far greater a reason than to just make people fight each other - to me it would make far more sense that this is a method of mind-control to coax the possibly less willing people on Roshar to do the bidding of Odium, that being carry out his total domination of the Cosmere. Furthermore, I believe that the mythology of the Tranquiline Halls is probably a fabrication influenced by Odium to open the people up to the idea of being used in some sort of galactic war -- I mean, think about it; you'd be more likely to agree with going to war if you had spent your entire life believing that someday it would be humankind's destiny to wage a spiritual war for some far off lands than if you didn't. I believe this kind of subterfuge, under-the-radar preparations of the people of Roshar is 100% in line with Odium's modus operandi of emotional manipulations.

Gonna use my first-ever post on this site to express my displeasure at this because: a. Mistborn deserves a WAAAY cooler game than Fortnite to represent it to the world, and Kelsier is probably wasted on the Fortnite player base b. If they were gonna chose a character for a shooter game of all things, surely Waxillium DAWNSHOT the rusting gunslinger would be the obvious choice? But hey, I guess ultimately this probably is good for the fanbase, and if it supports Brandon then it can't be too bad. That being said, if they add a game mode that lets me use my own Mistborn powers to crush some whiny Fortnite kids you can bet your spheres I'll be re-downloading that game in an instant...